Concerns About Christian Missionaries

[Artisi]

What the majority of christian missionaries are doing in this counrty is no different that what Thaksin and his cohorts were upto- buying votes and manipulating people to finacially corrupt then.

If the so-called christians want to do some good in Thailand they should join the Catholic priest Meier in Bangkok and do something constructive and not base their misguided "charity"soly on trying to win converts.

[Badbanker]

What the majority of christian missionaries are doing in this counrty is no different that what Thaksin and his cohorts were upto- buying votes and manipulating people to finacially corrupt then.

If the so-called christians want to do some good in Thailand they should join the Catholic priest Meier in Bangkok and do something constructive and not base their misguided "charity"soly on trying to win converts.

As a very committed Christian, I must sadly agree that many early 18th, 19th and early 20th century Christian Missionaries came to indoctrinate the local people and to civilise "the natives" into their particular Christian Religious belief. This was initially done with any means possible! Be it beads, bread, duvets or any other commodity that could be had.

Sadly many of these "missionaries" found that they had bred a whole generation of "Rice Christians" meaning, they were Christian while they had free rice. When the rice ran out so did the Christian beliefs! Then came the "we will sponsor you to go to America" so you can be good Christians in America.

This also did not work as 95% of those Thai Buddist people that were converted to America disappeared into the masses of the non religious in the USA. I am a member of a church that did have hundereds of "members" on the books from more than 20 years ago. Everyone but knows that these people have gone to better lands and are never heard of again.

Yes giving gifts to curry favour is still sadly widely practised by some religious groups. Please do not think I wish to discredit any religious group for any strategy, as HUGE amounts of good has been done by hard working Christian missionaries in education, medical work and caring for the poor. I will not criticise them as I have pointed out it doesn't work. They will run out of money or energy one day!

Sucessful Christian groups have realised that they have to localise the religious experience into something Thai Buddist can relate to and get the local people to realise religion is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

There are many religious groups that have done this and I believe the results and surprising and are going to surprise everyone even more in the next 3-5 years.

In reality we are all tasked with the same responsibility Christ took on himself when he started his work on earth, which is as follows:

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to tell the good news to the poor. He has sent me to announce release to the prisoners and recovery of sight to the blind, to set oppressed people free,

Luke 4:19 and to announce the year of the Lord's favor."

This is what we should all be doing whatever our religious persuasion is!

Badbanker

[Ulysses G.]

What the majority of christian missionaries are doing in this counrty is no different that what Thaksin and his cohorts were upto- buying votes and manipulating people to finacially corrupt then.

If the so-called christians want to do some good in Thailand they should join the Catholic priest Meier in Bangkok and do something constructive and not base their misguided "charity"soly on trying to win converts.

As a very committed Christian, I must sadly agree that many early 18th, 19th and early 20th century Christian Missionaries came to indoctrinate the local people and to civilise "the natives" into their particular Christian Religious belief. This was initially done with any means possible! Be it beads, bread, duvets or any other commodity that could be had.

Sadly many of these "missionaries" found that they had bred a whole generation of "Rice Christians" meaning, they were Christian while they had free rice. When the rice ran out so did the Christian beliefs! Then came the "we will sponsor you to go to America" so you can be good Christians in America.

This also did not work as 95% of those Thai Buddist people that were converted to America disappeared into the masses of the non religious in the USA. I am a member of a church that did have hundereds of "members" on the books from more than 20 years ago. Everyone but knows that these people have gone to better lands and are never heard of again.

Yes giving gifts to curry favour is still sadly widely practised by some religious groups. Please do not think I wish to discredit any religious group for any strategy, as HUGE amounts of good has been done by hard working Christian missionaries in education, medical work and caring for the poor. I will not criticise them as I have pointed out it doesn't work. They will run out of money or energy one day!

Sucessful Christian groups have realised that they have to localise the religious experience into something Thai Buddist can relate to and get the local people to realise religion is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

There are many religious groups that have done this and I believe the results and surprising and are going to surprise everyone even more in the next 3-5 years.

In reality we are all tasked with the same responsibility Christ took on himself when he started his work on earth, which is as follows:

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to tell the good news to the poor. He has sent me to announce release to the prisoners and recovery of sight to the blind, to set oppressed people free,

Luke 4:19 and to announce the year of the Lord's favor."

This is what we should all be doing whatever our religious persuasion is!

Badbanker

Thanks for your honesty.

[frantic88]

I have stopped at a Christian Church here in Chaiyaphum, but have been unable to get an answer to something I was wondering about. All these churches in Thailand seem to call themselves "Christian", with no additional reference to derivation. As if it is a generic term. I'd really like to know if these are mainstream Protestant and Catholic, or Mormons/Jehovah Witnesses. What about this aggressive one in Phitsanoluk?

[sceadugenga]

What the majority of christian missionaries are doing in this counrty is no different that what Thaksin and his cohorts were upto- buying votes and manipulating people to finacially corrupt then.

If the so-called christians want to do some good in Thailand they should join the Catholic priest Meier in Bangkok and do something constructive and not base their misguided "charity"soly on trying to win converts.

As a very committed Christian, I must sadly agree that many early 18th, 19th and early 20th century Christian Missionaries came to indoctrinate the local people and to civilise "the natives" into their particular Christian Religious belief. This was initially done with any means possible! Be it beads, bread, duvets or any other commodity that could be had.

Sadly many of these "missionaries" found that they had bred a whole generation of "Rice Christians" meaning, they were Christian while they had free rice. When the rice ran out so did the Christian beliefs! Then came the "we will sponsor you to go to America" so you can be good Christians in America.

This also did not work as 95% of those Thai Buddist people that were converted to America disappeared into the masses of the non religious in the USA. I am a member of a church that did have hundereds of "members" on the books from more than 20 years ago. Everyone but knows that these people have gone to better lands and are never heard of again.

Yes giving gifts to curry favour is still sadly widely practised by some religious groups. Please do not think I wish to discredit any religious group for any strategy, as HUGE amounts of good has been done by hard working Christian missionaries in education, medical work and caring for the poor. I will not criticise them as I have pointed out it doesn't work. They will run out of money or energy one day!

Sucessful Christian groups have realised that they have to localise the religious experience into something Thai Buddist can relate to and get the local people to realise religion is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

There are many religious groups that have done this and I believe the results and surprising and are going to surprise everyone even more in the next 3-5 years.

In reality we are all tasked with the same responsibility Christ took on himself when he started his work on earth, which is as follows:

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to tell the good news to the poor. He has sent me to announce release to the prisoners and recovery of sight to the blind, to set oppressed people free,

Luke 4:19 and to announce the year of the Lord's favor."

This is what we should all be doing whatever our religious persuasion is!

Badbanker

The term 'rice Christians' was first used by the Jesuits trying to convert Japanese in the sixteenth century.

[Simon255]

I feel seriously disturbed when I see the loud speaker gang blasting out hard edge Christian conversion rhetoric and handing out leaflets under Sala Daeng BTS. How can this be allowed? It feels and smells like brainwashing. Each to there own.... Please don't try to force conversion it is a low and self defeating tactic. The problem is that some misguided monotheistics just cannot rest. I understand some things and I am not against any religion, it makes me smile when I see Tao, Buddhist and Hindu ideas and art crossover in Thai temples.

Edited February 4, 2007 by Simon255

[jdinasia]

I feel seriously disturbed when I see the loud speaker gang blasting out hard edge Christian conversion rhetoric and handing out leaflets under Sala Daeng BTS. How can this be allowed? It feels and smells like brainwashing. Each to there own.... Please don't try to force conversion it is a low and self defeating tactic. The problem is that some misguided monotheistics just cannot rest. I understand some things and I am not against any religion, it makes me smile when I see Tao, Buddhist and Hindu ideas and art crossover in Thai temples.

I haven't seen that ... BUT since nobody buys into it .. who does it hurt?

[Hollywood]

I would look at what the missionaries destroyed of the Hawaiian beliefs, traditions,culture,religion,language and even their hula dancing which they outlawed if you think the missionaries are so harmless.

A must see is the new movie JESUS CAMP which has been nominated for an Academy Award in the USA. Then tell me what you think. ( clip on You Tube)

Thank you, from an atheist who thinks we are all humans on one planet and should all respect each other equally.

[jdinasia]

I would look at what the missionaries destroyed of the Hawaiian beliefs, traditions,culture,religion,language and even their hula dancing which they outlawed if you think the missionaries are so harmless.

A must see is the new movie JESUS CAMP which has been nominated for an Academy Award in the USA. Then tell me what you think. ( clip on You Tube)

Thank you, from an atheist who thinks we are all humans on one planet and should all respect each other equally.

I think they are in fact 90% harmless 7% helpful .. and 3% bad news ... (and this is not Hawaii ... and not long ago

[endure]

What the majority of christian missionaries are doing in this counrty is no different that what Thaksin and his cohorts were upto- buying votes and manipulating people to finacially corrupt then.

If the so-called christians want to do some good in Thailand they should join the Catholic priest Meier in Bangkok and do something constructive and not base their misguided "charity"soly on trying to win converts.

As a very committed Christian, I must sadly agree that many early 18th, 19th and early 20th century Christian Missionaries came to indoctrinate the local people and to civilise "the natives" into their particular Christian Religious belief. This was initially done with any means possible! Be it beads, bread, duvets or any other commodity that could be had.

Sadly many of these "missionaries" found that they had bred a whole generation of "Rice Christians" meaning, they were Christian while they had free rice. When the rice ran out so did the Christian beliefs! Then came the "we will sponsor you to go to America" so you can be good Christians in America.

This also did not work as 95% of those Thai Buddist people that were converted to America disappeared into the masses of the non religious in the USA. I am a member of a church that did have hundereds of "members" on the books from more than 20 years ago. Everyone but knows that these people have gone to better lands and are never heard of again.

Yes giving gifts to curry favour is still sadly widely practised by some religious groups. Please do not think I wish to discredit any religious group for any strategy, as HUGE amounts of good has been done by hard working Christian missionaries in education, medical work and caring for the poor. I will not criticise them as I have pointed out it doesn't work. They will run out of money or energy one day!

Sucessful Christian groups have realised that they have to localise the religious experience into something Thai Buddist can relate to and get the local people to realise religion is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

There are many religious groups that have done this and I believe the results and surprising and are going to surprise everyone even more in the next 3-5 years.

In reality we are all tasked with the same responsibility Christ took on himself when he started his work on earth, which is as follows:

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to tell the good news to the poor. He has sent me to announce release to the prisoners and recovery of sight to the blind, to set oppressed people free,

Luke 4:19 and to announce the year of the Lord's favor."

This is what we should all be doing whatever our religious persuasion is!

Badbanker

What if your religious persuasion is Buddhist? Or Jainism? or Shinto? One thing that really annoys me about Christians (and this is not aimed at anyone here in particular) is their kidnapping of the word 'religious' to describe only Christianity. It used to be common in bookshops (not so much any more) that there would be a shelf labelled 'Religious' which consisted solely of Christian tomes. If you wanted a book on Buddhism you had to go to the 'New Age' bookshelf.

[DogNo1]

[We, as Christians, are not responsible to give everything to everyone everywhere, as doing this will quickly result in having nothing and getting nowhere. We are called to do what we can to make the love of God evident to whoever God has called us to. It is no more prejudice or discriminatory to give more to and do more for the ones in the village who are indicating some interest in what they have to say, because the central message is the love God has for whoever wants to accept it.

Ever wonder why you aren't paying for another guy's wife's lifestyle? You are not responsible for another man's wife. God does what he can for who he can, but he can't just kick down the door and do stuff for you without prior consent from you. So he does what he can for whomever he can using whomever he can get to go wherever the people are.

Let's see if I follow your logic ... The Good Samaritan in the Bible chose to help the stranger because he knew that the stranger would be receptive to God's word... ? That's what Christian people naturally do - seek out those who are most receptive to the word of God to be beneficiaries of their kindness? My understanding of the Parable of the Good Samaritan was that good should be done regardless of the supposed worthiness of the person who benefitted. I'm not aware that Christ ever selected people to whom he was kind based an estimation of their willingness to acknowledge Him as God. I believe that the edict to proselytize was formulated later by St Thomas Aquinas, wasn't it. I'll forgo inserting the patronizing bowing head in favor of this one.

[DogNo1]

Everyone can believe what they want. The Bible clearly delineates the results of those choices.

To say that it is unfair that "nice" people don't make it to heaven because they have not accepted Jesus is not valid. God gave one way to get there: Jesus Christ. No matter how "nice" someone looks to us, we are not almighty, and don't know every single thought and deed of the entire person's life to the day they died.

This is a cop out.

In my youth, I was around born again Christians all of the time. What a bunch of smug, sinful, lying, sanctimonius phoneys.

Now, I'm surrounded by Buddhists that I have known well for long periods of time and I can assure you that many of them are much better people in every regard.

Are they all going to burn in he11 forever for accepting the religion of their fathers just like the Christians did?

A loving God would never sink to this.

As I said. Believe what you want. It makes little difference to me. Use any and all Christians that have ever existed for your excuse, if you wish. Other religions lower the standard so low anyone can make it in. God set the standard at perfect so anyone could make it, as long as they had accepted Jesus. Then sent his Son to die and take the penalty for everyone so it was available. If you prefer religions that tie whatever benefits accrued therefrom to how "nice" you are, which is on a sliding scale on a person-by-person basis, with no moral absolutes, you are free to do so.

I don't get mad at anyone for spreading any belief system. Everyone is really only subscribing to what they want to believe anyway. The thousands of religions of the world that have been invented by men are just different wrappers for the same poison: going to hel_l and helping others get there. If "niceness" was the criteria for entering heaven, then where would that leave people who aren't that "nice" but do good for the world in other ways? What if a guy beats his wife, but saves children from burning buildings? How about if he slapped her once, but saved ten children? Where is the ratio acceptable enough so he slides in under the rapidly closing gate of heaven? One slap to ten lives saved? Ten slaps to one life saved? Ten slaps and a mild rebuke okay if he saves ten kids and four puppies?

No, moral absolutes are given by God, just like physical laws, and are absolute, not open to negotiation. But, as I said, you are free to choose whichever path you want to take to get wherever it is you want to get. There is only one way to know God, and that's through Jesus Christ. You don't have to believe it, subscribe to it, or like anyone who ever moved a small toe in the direction of entering a church.

As I said, if I was a doorman at a dance club, and no one was allowed to enter but those who had membership cards, and I was passing out stacks of free cards at the door, there would be people who would protest that it was discriminatory to limit access to only those who had membership cards, though I had gone to the expense of having them designed, printed, and distributed to everyone I possibly could. "But, I have met other people with membership cards, and they are creeps, so I don't want to get one. But I still want to get in."

"Sorry, only people who can get in are people who have a card. Here's a free one."

"No! I REJECT membership cards! I hate cards! My mom was raped by some guy who had a membership card!"

"While I regret that that happened, you still need one to get in."

"This is religious persecution! You are trying to ram your dance club down my throat!"

"No, you don't have to come in. You are free to do what you please. But you can't get in unless you have one."

"I don't accept that! You are prejudiced! A bigot! A loving doorman wouldn't refuse me entrance just because I refused to take a free membership card!"

"While I do love you, as that is how the Bible states we should live, it does not mean I can do anything for you, unless you have a card. Here. Have one. They are free."

"No! My grandparents were WAY nicer than all the membership card holding people I choose to remember! And they belonged to that monastery over there! So, I can get in without one!"

"No, you can't. It is impossible. Here, have a free card!"

"No! I reject your cards, your club, and YOU!"

Hmmmm... Let's see if I understand this one ... It really doesn't matter what I do so long as I accept your membership card?

[svenivan]

OK .. what is there to be offended by? In this case Thai people of a different faith than the norm ... helping people? Wait ... the help has a 'fee' involved? (That being attendance?) This 'fee' would in effect cancel out any other obligation felt .... so is probably better than just giving stuff away

But honestly I don't see anything to be concerned by in this .. most of my Thai friends went to "Christian" schools .. and none of them ended up as Christians. The only group that I know of that have converted in any numbers in Thailand are the hilltribes that are so marginalized by Thai society that the victim role supplied by Christianity has appeal.

I do get a kick out of the Mormon kids on bikes in this heat though!

It's hard to say whose caused more harm lately in Thailand - the Christian missionaries or the Buddhist prime ministers! I am buddhist and don't believe in God, but I'm not about to start casting stones as those who are not buddhist and do believe in God. The problem is, as evidenced in Sri Lanka, south of Thailand, Iraq, etc., is that when a person starts throwing stones he is likely to get some thrown back at him.

I'm sorry .. I have missed something .. what harm have Christian missionaries done?

I would look at what the missionaries destroyed of the Hawaiian beliefs, traditions,culture,religion,language and even their hula dancing which they outlawed if you think the missionaries are so harmless.

A must see is the new movie JESUS CAMP which has been nominated for an Academy Award in the USA. Then tell me what you think. ( clip on You Tube)

Thank you, from an atheist who thinks we are all humans on one planet and should all respect each other equally.

I think they are in fact 90% harmless 7% helpful .. and 3% bad news ... (and this is not Hawaii ... and not long ago

Yes jdinasia, this is not Hawaii and it is not long ago. It is Thailand and it is happening today. And it is happening to the hilltribes in Thailand.

So what are the missionaries doing up in the mountains in the hilltribe villages?

They are doing the same as they are doing in Phitsanalok, they are aiming on the small children, they start with singing and playing and giving gifts.

Then they tell them no to wear their traditional clothes because this is no good and they are no good Christians.

They tell the small children that their parents are bad people because they are following their traditions with their songs and dancing, swings and whatever. And they tell the children that their parents will end up in hel_l and will burn forever.

Many old hilltribe villages are divided in two villages these days with two headmen etc. One Christian and one old traditional one.

And in the Christian part they are not allowed to follow any of their old traditions.

This is really damaging for these people because in their traditions is also all common knowledge how to handle different situations.

So the missionaries do the same thing today in Thailand to the hilltribes as they did in Hawaii many years ago.

But Christians and I think the ones from US are the worst, look down on all people with other religion. Do you think that US would have bombed Vietnam and Laos as they did for years if they were bombing Christians?

And do you think that the Vietnamese people had welcome American tourists to their country after all these bombings with million of dead Vietnamese people if the Vietnamese people had been Christians and not Buddist?

Missionaries Suck!

Kick them out of Thailand!

Regards

svenivan

[DogNo1]

Once again, complete and utter stereotyping and over-generalizing. Christianity is a broad religion with many different beliefs and ways of preaching the gospel. You can't lump all Christian missionaries together and say they all try to convert the same way. Some may be disrespectful to the culture they are in, yes, but that doesn't mean all are so.

It's severe folly to lump any sort of group together, ethnic, religious, etc. and condemn the whole group for the actions of a few. This is how terrorists think.

If you all understood Christianity, you would know that Jesus said to "Go into all the world" to convert others to his message. So, yeah, to say Christians should stay in their own countries would mean they are not following what their savior said.

And are all missionaries rich and drive Toyota Fortuners? Hardly. I've seen many missionaries who live on 9000 baht a month. Once again, I think some need to get a grip on reality. I think many of you don't understand Christianity.

Of course Jesus said he came to preach the gospel to the poor. The intent being to not only make available a relationship with God, but to allow God to get involved in every aspect of their lives, and turn them into people who are not poor, but abundantly supplied. The Bible, from Old Testament to New Testament brings a relationship with God, which leads to prosperity, spirit, soul, body, financially, and socially. "Beloved, I desire above all things that you may prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers."

Unlike many religions, poverty is not exalted as being some great thing in the Bible. Poverty is an enemy of all mankind. Would the girls of Thailand be flocking to the cities to be hookers if they made plenty of money otherwise? Not to anywhere near the same extent. What prevents American women from flocking to cities to be hookers, other than that it is largely illegal? It sure isn't their morals, I guarantee you that. No, it is that they have far easier access to money. Would millions around the world be starving if they were prosperous? No. Poverty is from the devil, is no mark of spiritual quality, and is a tool that Satan uses to oppress billions and make them bow to his will.

Poverty, sickness, premature death, immorality are all enemies of man, and not things sent by God to discipline people or such nonsense. If sickness or poverty was God's will, then Jesus would have gone arond casting IN devils, making the well sick, and stealing people's money.

Prosperity is not a mark of a lack of spiritual quality. To say that it is a good thing if any missionaries are poor, or a bad thing if they have nice cars and houses is ridiculous.

God is love. He wants to prosper people. And not just so they go out and spread the gospel. He prospers the people he can because he loves them. He expects Christians to use some of their prosperity to do what they can to bring his message of love to the world.

To think poverty is anything but a curse is mentally ill.

But don't many Catholic orders require a vow of poverty? Who said "Sell all that you have and give it to the poor?" Also, who said "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven?"

[animatic]

For the most part,

Missionaries that come to foreign lands to prosteltise,

are by nature one subect zealots and listen very little to others.

Ever dispute with a Jesuit.. I have,

my father even got a masters in Philosophy disputing with Jesuits.

I also have expirence with little sects in the USA, that are fishers of men.

There is some support in the bible to recruit and 'save' others,

but in general it is pretty mellow and voluntary teachings.

But I have also seen a home alter reconsecrated with holy water

because 30 minutres earlier 1 cm of TV Guide touched it by mistake....

And the 6 year old daughter taught never to look both ways crossing the street..

because "it's GOD's will if she were maimed or killed" ...

This is completely true, and beyond my comprehension.

The missionaries tend to take it to extremes and see only

their sucussesful conversion of others as the end goal.

And the goal often times is more important than the means,

IF you break no commandments in the process.

Or can rationalize way this bending of rules.

OK that said I am christian, as opposed to a buddist, taoist, etc etc.

But not a nutty to convert others one. I see no need, nor moral reason to do it.

On the other hand,

My finace's family has several native missionaries in it, spread across Asia.

I have yet to meet more than 3 in the family, but I like all I have met.

So far I have not met the missionaries, I have some trepidation...

But to say I am wary of the voir dire I will go through come wedding time,

is putting it mildly. I can argue theology well, even though I am not that

drawn to organized small sect religions in any way at all.

In the USA most recently 'born again converts' make me run screaming

for the door within minutes. Of course this type that becomes the typical missionary...

They ARE on a mission from 'GOD' full caps and no disuading them from

their mission. And typically littel real charity for others with differing theologies.

I am hoping the my future cousins in law, being a few generations in from

the original converts will also be reasonable offerors of 'The Word'.

And not as describe above :

essentially tricksters, and intolerant zealots seeking converts

by what ever means gets the end.

Of course I ALSO don't want to offend anyone,

but I don't think forced, leveraged or tricked conversions

REALLY are valid, so anyone likely to object,

is not likely to be a well thought out christian in the 1st place.

It's fine to be invited to a person's church, meet nice people,

and have a social gathering of kind and giving folk.

But if it ever gets to lecturing and hectoring to convert,

I'll run to the hils and circle tha wagons quick fast...

[jdinasia]

OK .. what is there to be offended by? In this case Thai people of a different faith than the norm ... helping people? Wait ... the help has a 'fee' involved? (That being attendance?) This 'fee' would in effect cancel out any other obligation felt .... so is probably better than just giving stuff away

But honestly I don't see anything to be concerned by in this .. most of my Thai friends went to "Christian" schools .. and none of them ended up as Christians. The only group that I know of that have converted in any numbers in Thailand are the hilltribes that are so marginalized by Thai society that the victim role supplied by Christianity has appeal.

I do get a kick out of the Mormon kids on bikes in this heat though!

It's hard to say whose caused more harm lately in Thailand - the Christian missionaries or the Buddhist prime ministers! I am buddhist and don't believe in God, but I'm not about to start casting stones as those who are not buddhist and do believe in God. The problem is, as evidenced in Sri Lanka, south of Thailand, Iraq, etc., is that when a person starts throwing stones he is likely to get some thrown back at him.

I'm sorry .. I have missed something .. what harm have Christian missionaries done?

I would look at what the missionaries destroyed of the Hawaiian beliefs, traditions,culture,religion,language and even their hula dancing which they outlawed if you think the missionaries are so harmless.

A must see is the new movie JESUS CAMP which has been nominated for an Academy Award in the USA. Then tell me what you think. ( clip on You Tube)

Thank you, from an atheist who thinks we are all humans on one planet and should all respect each other equally.

I think they are in fact 90% harmless 7% helpful .. and 3% bad news ... (and this is not Hawaii ... and not long ago

Yes jdinasia, this is not Hawaii and it is not long ago. It is Thailand and it is happening today. And it is happening to the hilltribes in Thailand.

So what are the missionaries doing up in the mountains in the hilltribe villages?

They are doing the same as they are doing in Phitsanalok, they are aiming on the small children, they start with singing and playing and giving gifts.

Then they tell them no to wear their traditional clothes because this is no good and they are no good Christians.

They tell the small children that their parents are bad people because they are following their traditions with their songs and dancing, swings and whatever. And they tell the children that their parents will end up in hel_l and will burn forever.

Many old hilltribe villages are divided in two villages these days with two headmen etc. One Christian and one old traditional one.

And in the Christian part they are not allowed to follow any of their old traditions.

This is really damaging for these people because in their traditions is also all common knowledge how to handle different situations.

So the missionaries do the same thing today in Thailand to the hilltribes as they did in Hawaii many years ago.

But Christians and I think the ones from US are the worst, look down on all people with other religion. Do you think that US would have bombed Vietnam and Laos as they did for years if they were bombing Christians?

And do you think that the Vietnamese people had welcome American tourists to their country after all these bombings with million of dead Vietnamese people if the Vietnamese people had been Christians and not Buddist?

Missionaries Suck!

Kick them out of Thailand!

Regards

svenivan

That is a pretty funny post! You managed to not only slam Christians but also Americans

(you will note that earlier in this thread I did mention that the hilltribes were the only groups of people that missionalries were having success with. Not for the reasons you listed .. and not with the results you listed so inavvurately, but simply because the hilltribes are totally marginalized in Thailand) But feel free to keep those huge chips on your shoulders ... having 2 of them like that probably keep you from falling over

[RedQualia]

Liberty: it is precisely because of the arguement that you raise in your post that I would not confront this group; as I fear that a similar view as yours is likely to held by them. This view is completely closed minded and intolerant and does not allow for the possibility that other people could be right. Your post states as fact, things for which there is no evidence for but are merely matters of faith. Christianity is one of many belief systems, all of which deserve equal respect. Please remember the other peolpe of different faiths have just as stong convictions as you do.

I agree that many posters have expressed very negative attitudes towards Christianity but believe that this is due to negative experiences that they have experienced in their dealings with this religion. Many are likely to have come from Christian backgrounds but now feel let down by their childhood faith.

I do believe that religion is important but feel that it should be a personal issue. I am 100% committed to my Buddhist beliefs but would never try and push these beliefs on to anybody else and the same could be said for most Buddhists. I always allow for the possibility that I could be wrong and so respect other peoples views.

My concern is that the Christian group im my village could be taken advantage of the tolerant attitude of the local Buddhist population.

Liberty, I repect your right to believe what you want I only ask that you respect other peoples right to do the same.

Metta

Do all belief systems deserve equal respect, in fact? Why would that be? Must we respect the belief system of the taliban? Must we respect the belief system in Saudi Arabia, which keeps women in subordinate roles, prevents them from driving autos, or even leaving the house unless accompanied by a male?

More generally, must all superstition or religion be given equal respect? And of course, this question is different from "must any specific superstition or religion be respected?"

And to what Buddhist beliefs are you 100% committed?

Please take these questions at face value. They are asked without malice.

My own answers: I see no particular reason to respect those superstitions derived from the Abrahamic traditions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam). While some good may have come from people involved in these religions, much harm has been done as well. But in general, the relationship of these groups to one another has been one of persecution. The crusades, the inquisition, and World War II were all about killing the heathens (sometimes Muslims, but far too often about killing Jews). Muslims whacked Buddhism in its home country of India. The Taliban speaks for itself, as does 9/11, the burning of France, the partitioning of India, unrest in the south of Thailand, etc, and so on. Protestants against Catholics in Ireland? Sunni vs. Shiite in the middle east? In what way do the belief systems driving all of these things deserve respect? Why should we respect a belief system that can cause 19 individuals to give their lives to crash aircraft into buildings (for example). (Which is not to say that there are no individuals within these traditions who deserve respect: Father Joe can be admired for much of what he's done. But that matter is separate and different from his religious beliefs.)

While I am an atheist, I am in many ways Buddhist as well. Buddhism is a way of living, thinking, and approaching reality and culture. In and of itself, Buddhism does not require belief in any god or spirit. It therefore offers a way in which I can be spiritual, without requiring superstition (quite the opposite, in fact).

With specific regard to the subject of this thread, I confess a strong dislike for the missionaries. I like Thailand because it is Thai, and feel that Thais should be left alone to be Thai. The same holds true for other cultures. The attitude of the Filipino (for example) who is so grateful to the Spanish for having overrun their culture with Catholicism seems quite distasteful. Seriously warped and disturbed.

Not that the Mormons bicycling around Chiang Mai or the Christians around Pitsanulok really care what I or you might think about missionaries. And as you indicate, religion is a personal matter.

I merely tilt against windmills here...

[dseawarrior]

This thread is amusing on many levels. My previous comment was quoted several times, which is also telling.

Dear Xtians: I will worship His Holiness the Flying Spaghetti Monster until convincing evidence is provided that I am wrong.

I plan to worship the "great" deity of Super Slackula until I am proven deluded... And perhaps even after I am proven deluded... All Hail the wisdom of Super Slackula!!!

Bye the bye... Perhaps the active thinkers out there may want to read a newer book out there called "The God Delusion" (2006, Richard Dawkins)... A good review and synopsis of the book can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion

As the Buddha was once "quoted": Beware of all teachers/ belief systems (religions) including this one ~ (a rough paraphrase??? does a Buddhist scholar out there know the "original" quote?)

I do see trouble with "preying" (or is it "praying" ??? ;-) on innocent youth with bribes and other manipulations -- seems there will be hel_l to pay -- if one believes in hel_l... Perhaps their future hel_l will be to prosletyze to future Americans about the folly of their tragic mistakes in this current world... ... or maybe not ...

Mai ben rai ~ mai mee arai ... goes a long ways to coping better with this crazy world... Mai ben rai ~ mai mee arai =~ there is nothing here/ there ~ to get your panties in a bunch about... Enjoy the ride, giggle as much as you can, cuz that giggling gives greater brain space for thinking more broadly...

Kit kwaang eek noi na krab... Think a little bit more broadly na...

Seems that is happening in this long and interesting thread ...

Didn't the Grateful Dead (those dreadful Pagans!) say: "what a long strange trip its been" ???

I have enjoyed the extremes and moderates of this interesting thread...

All Hail Super Slackula!!!

:D :bah:

dseawarrior

...and some tidbits from Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion" for those who can tolerate a broad diet of thought:

What's wrong with religion? Why be so hostile?

Dawkins turns to the question of why he feels so hostile towards religion in Chapter 8, arguing with examples that religion subverts science, fosters fanaticism, encourages bigotry towards homosexuals, and influences society in other negative ways. Southern preachers used the Bible to justify slavery by claiming Africans were descendants of Abraham's sinful son. During the Crusades, "pagans" and "heretics" who would not convert to Christianity were murdered, and other similar examples.

[edit]

Childhood, abuse and the escape from religion

One of these ways is the indoctrination of children, a subject to which Dawkins devotes chapter 9. He equates the religious indoctrination of children by parents and teachers in faith schools to a form of mental abuse. Dawkins wants people to cringe every time somebody speaks of a “Muslim child” or a “Catholic child”, wondering how a young child can be considered developed enough to have such independent views on the cosmos and humanity’s place within it. By contrast, Dawkins points out, no reasonable person would speak of a "Marxist child" or a "Tory child".

[edit]

A much needed gap?

The final chapter asks whether religion, despite its alleged problems, fills a “much needed gap”, giving consolation and inspiration to people who need it. According to Dawkins, these needs are much better filled by non-religious means such as philosophy and science. He argues that an atheistic worldview is life-affirming in a way that religion, with its unsatisfying “answers” to life’s mysteries, could never be.

[endure]

The problems with Dawkins is that he's as rabid as some of the people he castigates.

[luangtom]

If all the writers ,whether they be Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, agnostic or atheist, are so steadfast

in their beliefs, then NONE of what the others say should be upsetting or confrontational. A steadfast belief

in any system is what allows the system to survive or perish. Que sera........what will be will be. Do good,

avoid evil, purify the mind. Chok dee..........

[Richard W]

Genesis 26: And God said, Let us (my italics, God said US because he is Father, Son, Holy Spirit) make man in our image, after our likeness:...

Genesis 1:26, in case anyone has trouble looking it up.

But take a look at the grammar. As currently pointed, it reads, "Wayyômer (And he said (s)) 'ĕlōhîm (God (pl.)/gods (pl.)) na`ăśe (we will make (imperfective, plural))..." Given the plural of majesty in the second word, I don't see why the 3rd word doesn't also simply have a plural of majesty. The cynical view of course is that the first word is actually Wayyômĕrū 'And they said', but the scribes perferred not to add a consonant for the plural ending as such consonants came into fashion.

[garro]

Liberty: it is precisely because of the arguement that you raise in your post that I would not confront this group; as I fear that a similar view as yours is likely to held by them. This view is completely closed minded and intolerant and does not allow for the possibility that other people could be right. Your post states as fact, things for which there is no evidence for but are merely matters of faith. Christianity is one of many belief systems, all of which deserve equal respect. Please remember the other peolpe of different faiths have just as stong convictions as you do.

I agree that many posters have expressed very negative attitudes towards Christianity but believe that this is due to negative experiences that they have experienced in their dealings with this religion. Many are likely to have come from Christian backgrounds but now feel let down by their childhood faith.

I do believe that religion is important but feel that it should be a personal issue. I am 100% committed to my Buddhist beliefs but would never try and push these beliefs on to anybody else and the same could be said for most Buddhists. I always allow for the possibility that I could be wrong and so respect other peoples views.

My concern is that the Christian group im my village could be taken advantage of the tolerant attitude of the local Buddhist population.

Liberty, I repect your right to believe what you want I only ask that you respect other peoples right to do the same.

Metta

Do all belief systems deserve equal respect, in fact? Why would that be? Must we respect the belief system of the taliban? Must we respect the belief system in Saudi Arabia, which keeps women in subordinate roles, prevents them from driving autos, or even leaving the house unless accompanied by a male?

More generally, must all superstition or religion be given equal respect? And of course, this question is different from "must any specific superstition or religion be respected?"

And to what Buddhist beliefs are you 100% committed?

Please take these questions at face value. They are asked without malice.

My own answers: I see no particular reason to respect those superstitions derived from the Abrahamic traditions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam). While some good may have come from people involved in these religions, much harm has been done as well. But in general, the relationship of these groups to one another has been one of persecution. The crusades, the inquisition, and World War II were all about killing the heathens (sometimes Muslims, but far too often about killing Jews). Muslims whacked Buddhism in its home country of India. The Taliban speaks for itself, as does 9/11, the burning of France, the partitioning of India, unrest in the south of Thailand, etc, and so on. Protestants against Catholics in Ireland? Sunni vs. Shiite in the middle east? In what way do the belief systems driving all of these things deserve respect? Why should we respect a belief system that can cause 19 individuals to give their lives to crash aircraft into buildings (for example). (Which is not to say that there are no individuals within these traditions who deserve respect: Father Joe can be admired for much of what he's done. But that matter is separate and different from his religious beliefs.)

While I am an atheist, I am in many ways Buddhist as well. Buddhism is a way of living, thinking, and approaching reality and culture. In and of itself, Buddhism does not require belief in any god or spirit. It therefore offers a way in which I can be spiritual, without requiring superstition (quite the opposite, in fact).

With specific regard to the subject of this thread, I confess a strong dislike for the missionaries. I like Thailand because it is Thai, and feel that Thais should be left alone to be Thai. The same holds true for other cultures. The attitude of the Filipino (for example) who is so grateful to the Spanish for having overrun their culture with Catholicism seems quite distasteful. Seriously warped and disturbed.

Not that the Mormons bicycling around Chiang Mai or the Christians around Pitsanulok really care what I or you might think about missionaries. And as you indicate, religion is a personal matter.

I merely tilt against windmills here...

As somebody who is Irish and has lived in Saudi Arabia I do believe that other religions need to be respected. This has nothing to do with approving of their actions but merely that I cannot see any other way. In my post I did say 'deserve' to be respected but a better word would probably be 'need'. If I do not respect somebody else's beliefs this can only lead to me being intolerant and the effect of being intolerant can be seen throughout the world.

In regards to your question; what Buddhist beliefs am I 100% commited to?

I do not think that this is the proper place for such a discussion as I said, and you seem to agree, religion is a peronal matter. It is also only six in the morning........

[egeefay]

For the last two and a half years I have lived in a small village in Phitsanulok province. In the local area their is a Christian missionary which is very active in the community. It offers the local children scholarships, gifts for them and their families ( an example of this was duvets last month) as well as expensive holidays. They also have many fun activities at the centre. Apparently the money for this comes from the States. The children only recieve these benefits if they attend weekly services at the Christian centre and most of the children in our village now attend.

My Thai neice became a Christian after being recruited by a group of young Christian converts in Thailand.

It didn't last long. Once she was "in" she started to see the backbiting, hypocritical and mean side of some Christians ; and after a couple of years she dropped out.

Now my Thai nephew, who has been attending a Catholic boarding school in Thailand, wants to become a priest. His mother is upset but the rest of the family's attitude is that there are a lot worse professions than being a priest. My feeling is that it will probably all wear off after a while

The nice thing about Buddhism is that it lets each person decide which path to take. There isn't the dogma of western religions. Not a lot of "do's and don't".

It's pretty hard to go from the freedom of Buddhism to the authoritarianism of Christianity. My guess is that most converts to Christianity will find themselves back to where they started in a few years.

Buddhism isn't the kind of religion that actively seeks converts. That's why they don't have a lot of social programs for kids or do a lot to help the poor, or send missionaries out to recruit new members. Thais who are serious about being good Buddhists would rather withdraw from the world rather than make converts or get caught up in solving the problems of poverty , hunger and disease.

Many Christian missionary groups, on the other hand, uses food, medicine and money as a carrot stick to gain converts. And since the government and the Buddhist wats provides little in the way of social services and help for the poor, the void is filled by Christians and Muslim groups...both of whom are actively looking to boost membership.

[Badbanker]

As a committed Christian I was always saddened to hear the words of the Crosby Still and Nash song that said "Too many people have died in the name of Christ for anyone to heed the call".

The reality is that there is a God, who does love us, even though some much bad has been done in His name. I know for certain the purpose of "religion" is to not force a dogma on to people but to help them realise better life!

Each of us have a responsibility to ourselves to learn of a better way of life, which is maybe better than what we have now! For a long time many people in Asia have realised like us in the West that education was the key to a better standard of life. Sadly the traditional religion of many countries enforced the concept that education was only for the socially or financially elite.

Christianity has caused this ineqality to be less of a social issue and has enabled people to get better education and improve their quality of life. In the process of this education many have found that they wish to have a real relationship with God. This is their choice and I believe in most case it is not forced on them. There are, as I pointed out before many oportunists in Asia something that no other post seems to want to point out.

As I pointed out in my last post the real crux of Christianity as CHrsit pointed out so many time is that we have a DUTY to help others. If we don't do this then we are not really Christians!

For me it is not a religious form or a dogma that make my religion real rather it is a relationship with my God on a daily and continual basis tha casuses me to act as I do.

Bad banker

[Thaddeus]

As I pointed out in my last post the real crux of Christianity as CHrsit pointed out so many time is that we have a DUTY to help others. If we don't do this then we are not really Christians!

Agreed..... and neither ask for any reward.

The problem with some missionaries, is they behave like God's time-share sales-force.

[sceadugenga]

OK .. what is there to be offended by? In this case Thai people of a different faith than the norm ... helping people? Wait ... the help has a 'fee' involved? (That being attendance?) This 'fee' would in effect cancel out any other obligation felt .... so is probably better than just giving stuff away

But honestly I don't see anything to be concerned by in this .. most of my Thai friends went to "Christian" schools .. and none of them ended up as Christians. The only group that I know of that have converted in any numbers in Thailand are the hilltribes that are so marginalized by Thai society that the victim role supplied by Christianity has appeal.

I do get a kick out of the Mormon kids on bikes in this heat though!

It's hard to say whose caused more harm lately in Thailand - the Christian missionaries or the Buddhist prime ministers! I am buddhist and don't believe in God, but I'm not about to start casting stones as those who are not buddhist and do believe in God. The problem is, as evidenced in Sri Lanka, south of Thailand, Iraq, etc., is that when a person starts throwing stones he is likely to get some thrown back at him.

I'm sorry .. I have missed something .. what harm have Christian missionaries done?

I would look at what the missionaries destroyed of the Hawaiian beliefs, traditions,culture,religion,language and even their hula dancing which they outlawed if you think the missionaries are so harmless.

A must see is the new movie JESUS CAMP which has been nominated for an Academy Award in the USA. Then tell me what you think. ( clip on You Tube)

Thank you, from an atheist who thinks we are all humans on one planet and should all respect each other equally.

I think they are in fact 90% harmless 7% helpful .. and 3% bad news ... (and this is not Hawaii ... and not long ago

Yes jdinasia, this is not Hawaii and it is not long ago. It is Thailand and it is happening today. And it is happening to the hilltribes in Thailand.

So what are the missionaries doing up in the mountains in the hilltribe villages?

They are doing the same as they are doing in Phitsanalok, they are aiming on the small children, they start with singing and playing and giving gifts.

Then they tell them no to wear their traditional clothes because this is no good and they are no good Christians.

They tell the small children that their parents are bad people because they are following their traditions with their songs and dancing, swings and whatever. And they tell the children that their parents will end up in hel_l and will burn forever.

Many old hilltribe villages are divided in two villages these days with two headmen etc. One Christian and one old traditional one.

And in the Christian part they are not allowed to follow any of their old traditions.

This is really damaging for these people because in their traditions is also all common knowledge how to handle different situations.

So the missionaries do the same thing today in Thailand to the hilltribes as they did in Hawaii many years ago.

But Christians and I think the ones from US are the worst, look down on all people with other religion. Do you think that US would have bombed Vietnam and Laos as they did for years if they were bombing Christians?

And do you think that the Vietnamese people had welcome American tourists to their country after all these bombings with million of dead Vietnamese people if the Vietnamese people had been Christians and not Buddist?

Missionaries Suck!

Kick them out of Thailand!

Regards

svenivan

That is a pretty funny post! You managed to not only slam Christians but also Americans

(you will note that earlier in this thread I did mention that the hilltribes were the only groups of people that missionalries were having success with. Not for the reasons you listed .. and not with the results you listed so inavvurately, but simply because the hilltribes are totally marginalized in Thailand) But feel free to keep those huge chips on your shoulders ... having 2 of them like that probably keep you from falling over

The level of discussion appears to be deteriorating. Personal abuse is becoming common on both sides and of course, the sure sign some one is losing the argument, accusations of anti Americanism are flying.

Svenivan has only said what any expat living in the north will confirm. The missionaries working with the hills tribes have a policy of conversion at any cost. These people are the new Jesuits, the end justifies the means, and bribing of headmen, brainwashing of children and total intolerance of customs and traditions are common place. If the law allowed them to use fire and sword they would all be conquistadors over night. History is repeating it self and militant right-wing Christianity is reemerging.

The pro Christian contingent constantly say that they don't care about their protagonists and their descent into hel_l will be well deserved. I was accused of twisting the Bible earlier but find it difficult to twist Christs instructions to love one another....hang on, he meant for only Christians to love one another, I get it now! Err...what about Catholics and Fundies and Seven-dayers et al? Obviously some of these haven't got it right then. The amount of brotherly love in the world must be getting smaller and smaller. No wonder God's turned his back on the world.

[jumnien]

"Intelligent" people are always hoping to stop people who are helping the poor for what they see as the wrong reasons or as having suspect motivations. When will "intelligent" people simply put there wasted energy into helping poor people?

[garro]

It's hard to say whose caused more harm lately in Thailand - the Christian missionaries or the Buddhist prime ministers! I am buddhist and don't believe in God, but I'm not about to start casting stones as those who are not buddhist and do believe in God. The problem is, as evidenced in Sri Lanka, south of Thailand, Iraq, etc., is that when a person starts throwing stones he is likely to get some thrown back at him.

I'm sorry .. I have missed something .. what harm have Christian missionaries done?

oops! Looks like I've had a few pebbles thrown back at me...

I thought it was a fair question .... Missionaries have been here for ages! yet the percentage of Christians in the country has not really changed ... what harm have they done?

Honestly, not much harm. We all harm a bit, just by living! My post was really aimed at people realizing that it is unfair to blame Christianity for all the misdeeds of Christians as it would be unfair to blame Buddhism for the behavior of the last Buddhist prime minister of Thailand. I'm a bit fazed by the angry words against other religions coming from fellow "buddhists" on this thread. Thict Naht Hahn wrote an interesting book regarding the similar teachings of Buddha and Christ. I think it far more productive to use the teachings of both to lessen our resentments, anger, judgement which tend to close our hearts and minds. Peace.

I notice in this post you refer to yourself as a buddhist and other posters as "buddhists". I also note that you use the term "intelligent" in your last post. Do I detect a small bit of conceit here?

Metta

Edited February 5, 2007 by garro

[jumnien]

In my last post I was using the term "intelligent" to refer to all of us.

[svenivan]

Yes jdinasia, this is not Hawaii and it is not long ago. It is Thailand and it is happening today. And it is happening to the hilltribes in Thailand.

So what are the missionaries doing up in the mountains in the hilltribe villages?

They are doing the same as they are doing in Phitsanalok, they are aiming on the small children, they start with singing and playing and giving gifts.

Then they tell them no to wear their traditional clothes because this is no good and they are no good Christians.

They tell the small children that their parents are bad people because they are following their traditions with their songs and dancing, swings and whatever. And they tell the children that their parents will end up in hel_l and will burn forever.

Many old hilltribe villages are divided in two villages these days with two headmen etc. One Christian and one old traditional one.

And in the Christian part they are not allowed to follow any of their old traditions.

This is really damaging for these people because in their traditions is also all common knowledge how to handle different situations.

So the missionaries do the same thing today in Thailand to the hilltribes as they did in Hawaii many years ago.

But Christians and I think the ones from US are the worst, look down on all people with other religion. Do you think that US would have bombed Vietnam and Laos as they did for years if they were bombing Christians?

And do you think that the Vietnamese people had welcome American tourists to their country after all these bombings with million of dead Vietnamese people if the Vietnamese people had been Christians and not Buddist?

Missionaries Suck!

Kick them out of Thailand!

Regards

svenivan

That is a pretty funny post! You managed to not only slam Christians but also Americans

(you will note that earlier in this thread I did mention that the hilltribes were the only groups of people that missionalries were having success with. Not for the reasons you listed .. and not with the results you listed so inavvurately, but simply because the hilltribes are totally marginalized in Thailand) But feel free to keep those huge chips on your shoulders ... having 2 of them like that probably keep you from falling over

Yes, you must be one of these Americans with BIG mouths and small ears. Never listen to what other people are saying, just shouting your own opinions. (I don't say ALL Americans are like that!!!!!)

And it doesn't matter if it is in a written forum. Cannot or will not try to understand how other people are thinking.

Did I see you answering any of my questions?

No, of course not. As long as you hear your own voice you are happy.

Yes, you tried to answere one of my questions.

"Not for the reasons you listed .. and not with the results you listed so inavvurately, but simply because the hilltribes are totally marginalized in Thailand"

You are probably sitting shouting somewhere in US and never been to Thailand, never been to the hilltribes villages, don't have a clue what is happening when the missionaries are coming.

I have never been able to have a discussion with one these Americans with BIG mouths and small ears. And those extreme Christians are the same. Cannot listen to arguments. Just go on shanting their passages from the bible.

But I have many American friends (the ones with working hearing) and we often have good discussions. Never any problems.

Maybe someone else would like to answere my questions? (I don't belive jdinasia can read so many words at same time and understand the question)

"Do you think that US would have bombed Vietnam and Laos as they did for years if they were bombing Christians?

And do you think that the Vietnamese people had welcome American tourists to their country after all these bombings with million of dead Vietnamese people if the Vietnamese people had been Christians and not Buddist? "

Have a good day!

svenivan

(still happy because I am in Thailand!)