On 6/29/2018 at 6:06 AM, sanemax said:

Is that a statement that they have died ?

   Yes.  Exposure  to the low  temperatures alone would be enough. Adding in they got  wet, not a chance surviving that.   Then there's drowning and/ or  oxygen depletion  due to rising waters sealing off air circulation. I doubt  any made it past 48 hours. 

 

Condolences to the families. 

Edited July 1, 20188 yr by PhuketSarah

14 minutes ago, watcharacters said:

 

At the risk of upsetting those members who enjoy shouting about  "nanny states"  I still wish Thailand would consider something as simple as an  appropriate  warning sign such as this:

 

 

It's short and direct and inexpensive.     Maybe the 25 year old coach would have given pause had he read how rain could end the life of anyone entering the cave.   A simple warning seems innocent enough to me.

 

 

You mean like this one (and there are apparently others).

 

 

 

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, PhuketSarah said:

   Yes.  Exposure  to the low  temperatures alone would be enough. Adding in they got  wet, not a chance surviving that.   Then there's drowning and/ or  oxygen depletion  due to rising waters sealing off air circulation. I doubt  any made it past 48 hours. 

 

Condolences to the families. 

I think there is still some hope, but of course less hope as each day passes.

But on the exposure thing, I think they could have gotten wet but then if they were able to move to a dry place, that that would be survivable. 

Edited July 1, 20188 yr by Jingthing

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I think there is still some hope, but of course less hope as each day passes.

But on the exposure thing, I think they could have gotten wet but then if they were able to move to a dry place, that that would be survivable. 

That cave is likely about 15  degrees celsius - at best. Even dry as a bone,  that's not survivable for  boys  with  10- 15  %  body fat.  What were they wearing?  Nylon and cotton probably. "Cotton kills" is the  'ol camper's saying. Once wet, there's no insulation.  Maybe  they  huddled together in a  small room, then there's lack of oxygen to contend with. 

I  do hope  I am wrong, I really do but... 

Edited July 1, 20188 yr by PhuketSarah

2 hours ago, greenchair said:

UM, my post is talking about how cold the boys might be. 

The Americans are respected here as are other nationalities. 

But when I hear posters on here spouting off that the Thais aren't doing a good job, or the Thais should move over and let the Americans do it, or that the Americans are better than the Thais, I have to say, well no that's not right. I get quite sick of people criticising the Thais when dealing with emergency situations. I think they do a great job.  

I not see any real criticism of Thai here or any other nationality , Exception couple post were offended it appears that Americans are mention alot in the media...Look! I  gotten very little sleep for a week, ..I feel the anguish, uncertainty, and stress...I be there with them in sprit..as if they were my own...They just be kids...Desperately need another chance at Life...pray for their safe return....All that matters...

55 minutes ago, PhuketSarah said:

That cave is likely about 15  degrees celsius - at best. Even dry as a bone,  that's not survivable for  boys  with  10- 15  %  body fat.  What were they wearing?  Nylon and cotton probably. "Cotton kills" is the  'ol camper's saying. Once wet, there's no insulation.  Maybe  they  huddled together in a  small room, then there's lack of oxygen to contend with. 

I  do hope  I am wrong, I really do but... 

Every real expert quoted in these topics disagrees with you about the internal temperature of the cave, including Vernon Unsworth (caver with 1st hand knowledge of this cave system).

 

Cave experts around the world have been quoted as saying that the temperature is not a problem, so long as they can get dry.

 

What is your source for the 15 degrees celcius - at best statement?

1 hour ago, PhuketSarah said:

   Yes.  Exposure  to the low  temperatures alone would be enough. Adding in they got  wet, not a chance surviving that.   Then there's drowning and/ or  oxygen depletion  due to rising waters sealing off air circulation. I doubt  any made it past 48 hours. 

 

Condolences to the families. 

Although it is just your opinion that they have died .

You should not send condolences to familys that have children missing .

I do suggest that you do not give your condolences in person to the Parents

You really need to wait until dead bodies have been found

36 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

Every real expert quoted in these topics disagrees with you about the internal temperature of the cave, including Vernon Unsworth (caver with 1st hand knowledge of this cave system).

 

Cave experts around the world have been quoted as saying that the temperature is not a problem, so long as they can get dry.

 

What is your source for the 15 degrees celcius - at best statement?

I'm sure I'm wrong then,   and they're  just  as snug as a bug in a rug. 

Edited July 1, 20188 yr by PhuketSarah

7 hours ago, Ks45672 said:

What extensive experience in search and rescue does he have? 

Hes probably never been in a cave

 

every army has tunnel and cave expertise especially cave being a natural hide out and instant shelter. The Vietnamese were particulary good at it

Why on earth would you think search and rescue would be exempt from thai military training and why would caves be exempt being the most natural and instant form of shelter?

 

 

3 minutes ago, PhuketSarah said:

I'm sure I'm wrong then,   and they're  just  as snug as a bug in a rug - dead bugs. 

I think it's just irresponsibile at this stage for the authorities to be telling parents the boys are all still fine (like the pm yesterday etc) 

 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Although it is just your opinion that they have died .

You should not send condolences to familys that have children missing .

I do suggest that you do not give your condolences in person to the Parents

You really need to wait until dead bodies have been found

Yes it is my opinion,  written on a forum expressly created  for opinions to be shared.

I'm not going to recognize  your authority  to tell me what I can or cannot write or when I can do it  and I

am certainly not addressing any parents or family  in person  but  still, they  have my condolences. 

1 minute ago, Ks45672 said:

I think it's just irresponsibile at this stage for the authorities to be telling parents the boys are all still fine (like the pm yesterday etc) 

 

 

 

 

And cruel, even. They've been under incredible stresses  for  about 4 days longer than they needed to. Let them begin to grieve. 

1 hour ago, PhuketSarah said:

That cave is likely about 15  degrees celsius - at best. Even dry as a bone,  that's not survivable for  boys  with  10- 15  %  body fat.  What were they wearing?  Nylon and cotton probably. "Cotton kills" is the  'ol camper's saying. Once wet, there's no insulation.  Maybe  they  huddled together in a  small room, then there's lack of oxygen to contend with. 

I  do hope  I am wrong, I really do but... 

 

I'm almost sorry to say it, but yours is one of the very few, and one of the first sensible voices in this whole shebang. I wish there had been more but there just haven't been. Saying it like it is and not the politically correct version is becoming less and less common.

 

10 minutes ago, PhuketSarah said:

Yes it is my opinion,  written on a forum expressly created  for opinions to be shared.

I'm not going to recognize  your authority  to tell me what I can or cannot write or when I can do it  and I

am certainly not addressing any parents or family  in person  but  still, they  have my condolences. 

Yes, I do know that this is a forum for opinions to be shared , no need to state the obvious .

  Yes, you are an independent young lady who can do what you like and doesnt get told what  to do by anyone .

   But condolences are given to deceased people and as it hasnt been confirmed that anyone has died , your offer of condolences is premature  

19 minutes ago, Ks45672 said:

I think it's just irresponsibile at this stage for the authorities to be telling parents the boys are all still fine (like the pm yesterday etc) 

 

 

Thais have a huge need to be liked, and therefor they will say whatever they feel the listener wants to hear. Prayuth is no different except he's probably as the fat end of the arrogant scale. Truth is secondary to being liked or approved of by just about every Thai I've ever met, especially if they're never likely to meet you again. It's the way their culture works. If lying preserves them better, then lying is what you get

24 minutes ago, PhuketSarah said:

I'm sure I'm wrong then,   and they're  just  as snug as a bug in a rug. 

Nobody has suggested they are "snug as a bug in a rug" (I see you removed the disgusting "Dead bug" ending to your response), but you have asserted that the temperature underground is 15 degrees or worse. That is misleading - deliberate or careless, I don't know.

 

Experts have been giving figures between 20 and 23 degrees.

8 minutes ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

Thais have a huge need to be liked, and therefor they will say whatever they feel the listener wants to hear. Prayuth is no different except he's probably as the fat end of the arrogant scale. Truth is secondary to being liked or approved of by just about every Thai I've ever met, especially if they're never likely to meet you again. It's the way their culture works. If lying preserves them better, then lying is what you get

That's a very astute  observation and far kinder than my assessments on the lack of honesty.  

13 minutes ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

I'm almost sorry to say it, but yours is one of the very few, and one of the first sensible voices in this whole shebang. I wish there had been more but there just haven't been. Saying it like it is and not the politically correct version is becoming less and less common.

 

It is nothing to do with being "politically correct"  , dont use the politically correct excuse for being a an obnoxious person who thinks that hes superior to all others and knows everything  and is secretly  hoping 13 children are dead , just to further prove his superiority over other lesser people 

7 minutes ago, PhuketSarah said:

  Oh  please, how nauseatingly  sexist, and  obviously sanctimonious can  dismissal be- "independent young lady.." 

If you know this is a platform for opinions,  why are you making demands  I not share my opinion those kids are  dead about 5 days now?   

Yes, condolences to the families.   Condolences  are what they need now, not false hopes 

 

 

 

As I said somewhere else, I had a really bad feeling about this the first day. But it's not rocket science to deduce after all this time, they are much more likely dead than alive. But there is a theoretical chance some could survive even a month. Incredibly unlikely, but possible. So it's totally justified to keep looking as it isn't even close to a month yet.

 

Also let's not be naive. These are (or were) a large group of young children (and oh yeah, one adult). People have emotions and people all over the world have been hoping they can be saved, relating to the tragedy of the situation and the stress of their families. 

 

Imagine if it was two 70 year old foreigners from Nigeria trapped in there. What kind of effort would have been made for them?

 

Not saying right or wrong, but acknowledging the reality.

Edited July 1, 20188 yr by Jingthing

17 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

I seem to recall this "young lady" discussing her retirement visa on the forum a while ago.

For once I actually agree with most of her thoughts on this matter.

 

Do you agree that its appropriate to offer Condolences to the Parents of missing trapped in a cave Children ?

2 hours ago, PhuketSarah said:

   Yes.  Exposure  to the low  temperatures alone would be enough. Adding in they got  wet, not a chance surviving that.   Then there's drowning and/ or  oxygen depletion  due to rising waters sealing off air circulation. I doubt  any made it past 48 hours. 

 

Condolences to the families. 

They also have to face: disorientation, hallucinations, falls, separation, desperation, and lack of judgement brought on by exposure and lack of food. But even so, I am not ready to call it a lost cause. Humans can and do survive incredible things occasionally. Our instinct is to fight for our lives.

5 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

They also have to face: disorientation, hallucinations, falls, separation, desperation, and lack of judgement brought on by exposure and lack of food. But even so, I am not ready to call it a lost cause. Humans can and do survive incredible things occasionally. Our instinct is to fight for our lives.

Yes, they are probably all dead, and the parents probably already know that too. It doesn't matter what a politician says or not in that regard. But I don't see the harm in searching for a reasonable amount of time and for the parents to hang on to a sliver of hope for longer (or until the bodies are found).

30 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

Nobody has suggested they are "snug as a bug in a rug" (I see you removed the disgusting "Dead bug" ending to your response), but you have asserted that the temperature underground is 15 degrees or worse. That is misleading - deliberate or careless, I don't know.

 

Experts have been giving figures between 20 and 23 degrees.

That maybe the air temperature if they're all dry but even if they're on the ledge it's probably cold, wet and slimy so it's maybe impossible to stay "dry" 

If they're wet  up to their necks maybe 15 is a bit more realistic 

4 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

The farce has now gone on too long and some common sense needs to be applied.  

Get up to Chiang Rai and shut the operation down, send every one home. Go and apply your common sense. You're just another toxic defeatist, I'm just pleased that the people involved in the actual rescue operation are not contaminated by people with your weak mindset.

11 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

No, that's the reason I said "most" of her thoughts. 

This is actually the first comments I've made on the matter, as I've believed there was only one outcome after the first couple of days and didn't think it reasonable to indulge in debate.

The farce has now gone on too long and some common sense needs to be applied.  

What do you suggest that they do ?

28 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

Nobody has suggested they are "snug as a bug in a rug" (I see you removed the disgusting "Dead bug" ending to your response), but you have asserted that the temperature underground is 15 degrees or worse. That is misleading - deliberate or careless, I don't know.

 

Experts have been giving figures between 20 and 23 degrees.

The temps underground will surely be an awful lot colder than in the ambient air temperature outside the cave.

15 Deg C --- I dont know if that is a  best temperature or not, but what I do know from my experiences from years ago when I was a sknny young man and spent a lot of time underground exploring various potholes and caves in the UK, Is that if these young people do not have warm and dry clothing to wear they are in serious trouble.

They will probably have entered the cave complex wearing just their Football gear, which will offer them zero insulation against the 2 types of cold in the cave.

The air temp inside if 15 deg is not so bad, if they are dry, but if they have gotten wet and for sure they will be covered in mud, the water temperature will surely be colder than 15 Deg,, and this is where the issue of Hypothermia will start to kick in for them.

This is a very sad and tragic incident for all concerned, and I have expressed my views based on experience.

I really wish and pray for a good outcome to this situation, and the kids can go back home to their worried and loving families.

 

 

.

 

9 minutes ago, sanemax said:

What do you suggest that they do ?

Stop telling the parents everybody will be fine because they are "strong young athletes" would be a good start

 

The youngest ones  11, calling him an athlete is farcical 

 

15 minutes ago, Fish Head Soup said:

Get up to Chiang Rai and shut the operation down, send every one home. Go and apply your common sense. You're just another toxic defeatist, I'm just pleased that the people involved in the actual rescue operation are not contaminated by people with your weak mindset.

I hope you remember this post when the bodies are found...

1 minute ago, Ks45672 said:

I hope you remember this post when the bodies are found...

What difference would it make?

26 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

They also have to face: disorientation, hallucinations, falls, separation, desperation, and lack of judgement brought on by exposure and lack of food. But even so, I am not ready to call it a lost cause. Humans can and do survive incredible things occasionally. Our instinct is to fight for our lives.

Now we could swing into a certain prevalent fatalist religious belief and  how it could be a factor in survivalist tendencies. If you think you're just gonna come back.... why  fight?