Plant Based Nutrition and Fasting

[Justfine]

17 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

"they must follow a precise, prescribed way of eating in order to be healthy and I don't agree because that takes the feedback from your own body out of the loop, ya know?  Just my own view"

 

Also in general my point of view - except I don't think that meat eating is  a good idea 99.99% of the time - granted if starving and nothing else is available it might be OK but for those of us who haven't eaten meat in over 40 years meat is not an option you would normally throw up as your body has a hard time with meat at first.

 

Again the research is not yet 100% in favor of plant based diets just as at first it was not against smoking.

Humans have eaten meat for 100,000+ years.

 

And meat eaters are generally stronger than vegans. Most vegans are weak as.

[MalandLee]

11 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

"they must follow a precise, prescribed way of eating in order to be healthy and I don't agree because that takes the feedback from your own body out of the loop, ya know?  Just my own view"

 

Also in general my point of view - except I don't think that meat eating is  a good idea 99.99% of the time - granted if starving and nothing else is available it might be OK but for those of us who haven't eaten meat in over 40 years meat is not an option you would normally throw up as your body has a hard time with meat at first.

 

Again the research is not yet 100% in favor of plant based diets just as at first it was not against smoking.

Just went to the "Vegan Festival" in my city - TOTALLY blown away by the numbers.. 50 metre queue's at almost every food outlet... Even 10 years ago it was quite sedate, now, it is families, children and older people too - It has exponentially grown in my 10 years - could not hazard a guess at what 40 yrs growth is like.

[Justfine]

4 hours ago, Bonobojt said:

if any meat eaters are reading this topic and are curious about trying a plant based diet for health reasons or ethical reasons or both, highly recommend watching this video

 

 

 

Meat is 1 heathly and 2 tastes good.

 

Veganism is for lefties.

[Kohsamida]

2 hours ago, Justfine said:

...And meat eaters are generally stronger than vegans. Most vegans are weak as.

With all due respect, isn't your comment a bit of a generalization, and perhaps an unfounded one at that?  Do you have any science to back up your statement?   

 

I know of no studies that support your notion, but I do know of a lot of studies that show definitive links between eating animal proteins and a whole host of metabolic and neurological diseases including many forms of cancer, Alzheimer's disease, and Parkinson's to name just a few.  Suffering from one of these conditions would not be a good definition of "strength".

 

And just how do you define "stronger"?  Here in Chiang Mai there are many Vegan athletes (triathletes and cyclists).  Many of the cyclist regularly go up Doi Suthep (over 18km) in around 30 minutes.  To my way of thinking that's a pretty good indication of "strength", and I can't imagine anyone considering someone that competes in triathlon as being weak.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Bonobojt]

2 hours ago, Justfine said:

Humans have eaten meat for 100,000+ years.

 

And meat eaters are generally stronger than vegans. Most vegans are weak as.

we did indeed eat meat when we were cavemen/hunter gatherer's, but they ate it for survival, and meat was an excellent source of calories back then, now its 2018, your not a Caveman anymore, you don't need meat to survive, we have supermarkets now.

 

as for health, I wouldn't say meat is poison, maybe factory farmed meat is, that is bad quality meat, sick animals is terrible conditions etc.. but if you wear to eat organic grass fed meat or hunt, then it would be a healthier better quality meat, but it still has saturated fat, cholesterol, trans fat, IGF 1 growth Hormones, so I wouldn't eat it everyday, maybe twice a week or something wouldn't hurt but I don't know.

 

no one is here to force you to be vegan, we are here to just discuss an interest of ours and to educate anyone who's interested in Plant Based Diets, if you enjoy meat then do as you wish. 

[Bonobojt]

here's a video with Dr Doug Lisle about the Evolution of the human diet, very interesting video that makes a lot of sense 

 

 

[Bonobojt]

3 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Agreed that if you eat a plant based diet a supplment is a good idea - I take a low dose multi vitamin daily. I get them from iherb in the mail.

 

I am a fan of Gregor but have never heard him say that B-12 is only absorbed in a tiny amount - it does not make sense if you can store a supply for years... Can you provide a link to the video or article please?  I like the way he runs while giving interviews.

 

As for gut bacteria I really don't know much about it other than with a plant based diet and no smoking or drinking etc you are normally fine.

can't remember which interview it was, he's done so many I can't just watch them all, but I found this article

 

https://livestrong.com/article/476218-vitamin-b12-urine-color/

 

your body absorbs the b12 it needs which is only a small amount, then excretes the rest through the urine, that's why your urine colour may change if your taking a b12 complex or b12 supplement etc..

[Justfine]

44 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

With all due respect, isn't your comment a bit of a generalization, and perhaps an unfounded one at that?  Do you have any science to back up your statement?   

 

I know of no studies that support your notion, but I do know of a lot of studies that show definitive links between eating animal proteins and a whole host of metabolic and neurological diseases including many forms of cancer, Alzheimer's disease, and Parkinson's to name just a few.  Suffering from one of these conditions would not be a good definition of "strength".

 

And just how do you define "stronger"?  Here in Chiang Mai there are many Vegan athletes (triathletes and cyclists).  Many of the cyclist regularly go up Doi Suthep (over 18km) in around 30 minutes.  To my way of thinking that's a pretty good indication of "strength", and I can't imagine anyone considering someone that competes in triathlon as being weak.

Distance cyclists are skinny and weak.

 

 

[Justfine]

https://www.womenshealthmag.com/food/a19984698/vegetarians-vs-meat-eaters/

 

It took all of 5 secs to find.

 

 

[Justfine]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/201412/84-vegetarians-and-vegans-return-meat-why

 

Most give up the farce as well

[Justfine]

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/vegetarians-study-lower-risk-death

 

 

[Justfine]

"The most significant finding of the study was that muscle mass was strongly associated with animal-protein intake but not with the amount of protein taken in."

 

https://www.ironmanmagazine.com/muscle-vegetarians-vs-meat-eaters/

 

[Justfine]

"I know of no studies that support your notion"

 

That's because you did no research and have probably never lifted weights in your life.

 

 

[Justfine]

1 hour ago, Bonobojt said:

we did indeed eat meat when we were cavemen/hunter gatherer's, but they ate it for survival, and meat was an excellent source of calories back then, now its 2018, your not a Caveman anymore, you don't need meat to survive, we have supermarkets now.

 

as for health, I wouldn't say meat is poison, maybe factory farmed meat is, that is bad quality meat, sick animals is terrible conditions etc.. but if you wear to eat organic grass fed meat or hunt, then it would be a healthier better quality meat, but it still has saturated fat, cholesterol, trans fat, IGF 1 growth Hormones, so I wouldn't eat it everyday, maybe twice a week or something wouldn't hurt but I don't know.

 

no one is here to force you to be vegan, we are here to just discuss an interest of ours and to educate anyone who's interested in Plant Based Diets, if you enjoy meat then do as you wish. 

Grass fed beef is superior to grain fed. That's what I eat. There are issues with animal feed but there are issues with fruit and vege treatment as well. A lot of supermarket fruit n vege is second rate and anything but fresh.

 

I think it's important for people to do proper research and not just follow the latest cool trend promoted by "gurus", many of which are just profiting on the gullibility of people looking for super foods when there is no such thing.

[evadgib]

3 hours ago, Justfine said:

Meat is 1 heathly and 2 tastes good.

 

Veganism is for lefties.

I won't ever go vegan but I'm enjoying IF (Intermittent Fasting) which includes more veggies than usual (for me!) on fasting days:

 

[Justfine]

I agree with Cleese. I eat heaps of greens but cutting out meat is not logical.

[Justfine]

"Bitter’s go-to sources of pure fat include coconut oil, coconut milk, clarified butter, olive oil and avocado oil. For fat and protein combos, he prefers grass-fed beef, chicken, liver, any kind of organ meat, salmon, rib-eye and eggs."

 

https://blog.mapmyrun.com/surprising-diet-trick-fastest-man-run-100-miles/

 

[Bonobojt]

1 hour ago, Justfine said:

Grass fed beef is superior to grain fed. That's what I eat. There are issues with animal feed but there are issues with fruit and vege treatment as well. A lot of supermarket fruit n vege is second rate and anything but fresh.

 

I think it's important for people to do proper research and not just follow the latest cool trend promoted by "gurus", many of which are just profiting on the gullibility of people looking for super foods when there is no such thing.

totally agree with lack of fruit quality, depending on where you are in the world, in the UK the fruit quality can suck, but I would say the veg is decent (not that I eat veg a lot), Thailand being a tropical climate country, fruit is decent. Pesticides are not great but is it terrible for health, causing tons of health issues ? no, meat, cheese, milk and eggs are causing tons of health issues and are causing tons of environmental issues 

 

in terms of doing research, I can assure you, we have, and we are following real Doctor's advise, these doctors are vegan and read all the latest research on nutrition, and the research shows that a Whole Foods Plant Based Diet can be healthy and prevent certain diseases like heart disease, diabetes, obesity, and lower the risk of cancer. 

 

yes there are weird quack raw vegans or fruitarian vegans blah blah, I don't follow their advice, I don't think raw vegan diets are healthy long term, I think a diet with cooked foods is the healthiest long term. there is also quack meat eater guru's recommending all meat diets (only eating meat) so it works both ways.

 

please do your research before you criticize the plant based diet.  

[Kohsamida]

2 hours ago, Justfine said:

"I know of no studies that support your notion"

 

That's because you did no research and have probably never lifted weights in your life.

 

 

Do you really consider those sources of information to be scientific bases for your notion that Vegans are weaker than meat-eaters?  C'mon, seriously, a "bro science" article, and a few off-the-cuff articles written by journalists (not scientists) in consumer magazines.  Sorry but I'm not impressed.  

 

And you are incorrect on both counts; I study health subjects in-depth; not just casually read magazine articles on the subject or get my "facts" from bros at the gym.  And, as a matter of fact, I do lift weights regularly, and have done so for over twenty years. 

 

And finally, an elite Vegan cyclist may be "skinny" but they can put out wattage (power) that is truly impressive by anyone's standard.  You don't need a bodybuilder's bulk to be strong.

 

I take health and fitness seriously, and so do a lot of other people participating in this thread.  If you have different views, express them if you like but please don't insult others just because their views differ from yours.  Would it hurt to show a little respect for other points of view? 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Antonymous]

Pics of some great vegan athletes (body builders) here:

 

http://www.greatveganathletes.com/bodybuilders

[Justfine]

7 hours ago, Kohsamida said:

Do you really consider those sources of information to be scientific bases for your notion that Vegans are weaker than meat-eaters?  C'mon, seriously, a "bro science" article, and a few off-the-cuff articles written by journalists (not scientists) in consumer magazines.  Sorry but I'm not impressed.  

 

And you are incorrect on both counts; I study health subjects in-depth; not just casually read magazine articles on the subject or get my "facts" from bros at the gym.  And, as a matter of fact, I do lift weights regularly, and have done so for over twenty years. 

 

And finally, an elite Vegan cyclist may be "skinny" but they can put out wattage (power) that is truly impressive by anyone's standard.  You don't need a bodybuilder's bulk to be strong.

 

I take health and fitness seriously, and so do a lot of other people participating in this thread.  If you have different views, express them if you like but please don't insult others just because their views differ from yours.  Would it hurt to show a little respect for other points of view? 

You are posting opinions not facts.

 

Bodybuilders are weaker than powerlifters and they eat meat and eggs.

 

 

[Justfine]

"And, as a matter of fact, I do lift weights regularly, and have done so for over twenty years. "

 

Nice story bro.

[Justfine]

10 hours ago, Justfine said:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/vegetarians-study-lower-risk-death

 

 

"Researchers who tracked nearly a quarter million adults aged 45 and older in New South Wales found no significant differences in all-cause mortality, meaning the likelihood of dying, of any death, between those who followed a complete, semi- (meat once a week or less) or pesco- (fish permitted) vegetarian diet, and regular meat eaters."

 

Very large study here. 

 

 

[Justfine]

"Sorry but I'm not impressed. "

 

You falsely claimed there was no science then respond with feelings.

 

Science says you're wrong but given you care more about feelings so be it.

[Justfine]

https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/145/9/1981/4585688

 

Yet more science on animal protein being superior.

 

Just man up and admit you were wrong.

[Justfine]

https://www.livestrong.com/article/17876-soy-protein-vs.-whey-protein/

 

Whey wins.

 

 

[Justfine]

9 hours ago, Bonobojt said:

totally agree with lack of fruit quality, depending on where you are in the world, in the UK the fruit quality can suck, but I would say the veg is decent (not that I eat veg a lot), Thailand being a tropical climate country, fruit is decent. Pesticides are not great but is it terrible for health, causing tons of health issues ? no, meat, cheese, milk and eggs are causing tons of health issues and are causing tons of environmental issues 

 

in terms of doing research, I can assure you, we have, and we are following real Doctor's advise, these doctors are vegan and read all the latest research on nutrition, and the research shows that a Whole Foods Plant Based Diet can be healthy and prevent certain diseases like heart disease, diabetes, obesity, and lower the risk of cancer. 

 

yes there are weird quack raw vegans or fruitarian vegans blah blah, I don't follow their advice, I don't think raw vegan diets are healthy long term, I think a diet with cooked foods is the healthiest long term. there is also quack meat eater guru's recommending all meat diets (only eating meat) so it works both ways.

 

please do your research before you criticize the plant based diet.  

Herbicides are terrible in Thailand.

 

And I have done my research. I quoted one of the largest studies ever done.

 

Yes all meat diets are crazy imo just like no meat diets. Both extremes are based on pseudo science.

[Kohsamida]

1 hour ago, Justfine said:

Herbicides are terrible in Thailand.

 

And I have done my research. I quoted one of the largest studies ever done.

 

Yes all meat diets are crazy imo just like no meat diets. Both extremes are based on pseudo science.

Well, we agree on at least one thing; extremes in nutrition are bad, no matter which side of the fence you're on.  Fact is, I happen to love a good steak every once in a while.  I approach veganism in a flexible and practical way.  As much as I believe that animal proteins can have some pretty serious health consequences in the long-term, I temper that view with the practicality of day-to-day living.  

 

My point is simply that science is leaning more and more towards adopting a more plant-based way of eating.  I am very well read on health subjects.  I'm not bragging; it's just a fact that I enjoy exploring ALL viewpoints on the subject, and from everything I've read, I can see unbiased evidence that animal proteins can have some pretty serious health consequences in the long-term.

 

When I speak of scientific studies to support this claim I'm speaking of work being done in a variety of basic science disciplines, not just those directly related to nutrition.  I'm talking about serious and unbiased scientific research sponsored by major universities, not studies supported by those with vested interested like the American Dairy Council or Beef Council, or performance supplement companies.

 

 For example, I'm talking about the ground-breaking studies of autophagy by the 2016 Nobel prize winner, Yoshinori Ohsumi.  I'm talking about the clinical and pure science research by people like Dr. Neals Barnard, T. Colin Campbell, Caldwell Esselstyn, and John McDougall to name a few.  Seriously, you should read what these people have to say before you judge plant-based nutrition so harshly. 

 

What's more, historically there are a lot of Vegan / Vegatarian athletes that are unquestionable strong by anyone's standards such as Mike Tyson, Ricky Wilson, Carl Lewis, Jermain Defoe, and since you seem partial to those who pump iron, even Barny du Plessis the famous bodybuilder and Winner of Mr. Universe 2014, to name just a few.  Perhaps they know something you don't?

 

I think you will be surprised about plant-based viewpoints if you approach it with an open mind.  It might give you a new perspective.  I'm not trying to convert you to my way of thinking, and nobody else is either.  I think we're all just trying to share our points of view with each other, get feedback on our thoughts, and try to gain a better understanding of what constitutes a healthy lifestyle.

 

Look, I'm not trying to have a pissing war with you.  I started this thread to share and explore ideas and thoughts on nutrition.  Lots of people are participating with strong viewpoints and are willing to debate them in an open and positive way. 

 

If you feel strongly about your point of view, express it and debate it with others on here, but if you do, you kind of owe it to everybody to be informed about plant-based viewpoints instead of making blanket statements like "...all Vegans are weak".  Attacking others because you disagree doesn't do anybody any good.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Justfine]

So now you love steak ?

[Antonymous]

2 hours ago, Justfine said:

"Researchers who tracked nearly a quarter million adults aged 45 and older in New South Wales found no significant differences in all-cause mortality, meaning the likelihood of dying, of any death, between those who followed a complete, semi- (meat once a week or less) or pesco- (fish permitted) vegetarian diet, and regular meat eaters."

 

Very large study here. 

 

 

Some points about this study:

 

A large group (243,096) but only 1,509 vegetarians among them.

 

The study followed them for just six years and did not account for how long they had followed their diet choices before the study.

 

A total 5.5% of complete vegetarians died from all causes (no details are given and some may have been bike accidents for all we know).

 

A total 6.9% of the rest died. That’s a 25% greater chance of dying among the rest (surely significant), but this is overlooked in the conclusions.

 

The study notes that “…the traditional vegetarian diet has undergone “a transition in recent years,” with plant foods and whole grains being replaced by soybean substitutes, refined carbohydrates high in sugar, and “highly processed snack and fast foods which bring dietary risk factors more in line with the ‘normal’ diet.” THIS is a critical point too. It is not only avoiding meat and dairy that leads to better health, but the avoidance of processed foods and refined carbs too.

 

My educated guess is that if a study had been performed (the longer the better) with a group of plant food eaters (who also avoid processed foods) and a group of meat eaters, the results favouring the former diet choices would have been even more significant than they were.

 

I’d also expect a longer study to take into account illnesses that occurred in each group during the study. The study in question made no mention of this. Age of death is only part of the puzzle. Whether the participants lead a healthy or sick life during their final years is surely as important.