Tham Luang cave: Evacuation poses challenge

[webfact]

Evacuation poses challenge

By The Nation

 

A still from a video of the 13 members of the Mu Pa Academy Mae Sai football club taken by one of the two British divers who located the missing team at a dry spot of the cave on Monday night.

 

Authorities mull whether to wait for water levels to subside, which could take a long time, or use divers to bring the footballers out before rains return

 

RESCUE PLANNERS are now set to carry out the daunting task of bringing the 13 stranded footballers out of the Tham Luang cave via the partially flooded passage, as that remains the only way out. 

 

Exploration for alternate ways could take too much time amid the forecast of more downpours, making it likely that the 12 young footballers and their coach would be evacuated today. 

 

“If heavy downpours resume, floodwater in the cave will definitely rise. So, it is necessary that we get the victims out first,” Interior Minister Anupong Paochinda said yesterday.

 

The 13 members of the Mu Pa Academy Mae Sai got stranded in the cave in Chiang Rai province on June 23 after flash floods hit the cave. Although all-out rescue efforts were quickly launched, floodwaters have posed a formidable obstacle. 

 

A pause in the rains and the use of powerful pumps to drain water out of the cave delivered tangible results in lowering the water level inside the cave. Eventually, the level was low enough for front-line rescue divers to venture about half the length of the estimated 10km-long cave and locate the 13 footballers. The massive rescue effort also drew assistance from foreign experts in achieving a breakthrough.

 

Chiang Rai Governor Narongsak Osotanakorn thanked both Thai and international volunteers for their dedication in the operation, which he had earlier described as mission impossible.

 

At present, the victims have been given minerals, food, water, and lighting. A doctor, a nurse, and Navy SEALs are now keeping them company. 

 

Despite the urgency, the trapped footballers may have to stay inside the cave for months until they are strong enough to travel out of the cave, Navy SEALs commander Rear Admiral Arpakorn Yukongkaew said.

 

Arpakorn stated that he could not answer how long the team will have to stay inside the cave, as it depended on the state of readiness of each boy.

 

“Everyone can be relieved now, as all of them are in the good hands of seven Navy SEALs, who will be with them and take care of them all the time,” he said.

 

“Two of the Navy SEALs are medical practitioners with expertise in this task, while there will be constant food and medicine provided to the trapped footballers and a communication line to the outside world set up.” 

 

He also asked the public not to be concerned about the level of floodwater while the boys are still inside the cave, as their location is safe and high enough to protect them from floodwater.

 

His opinion was at odds with Anupong who seemed bent on pushing ahead with the operation to get the stranded team out.

 

One of the contingency plans is to have two professional divers take care of each of the kids on their way out of the complicated cave network.

 

Anupong admitted that this option was risky because diving in such a condition is highly challenging due to the narrow passage and negative factors including darkness.

 

 

The minister said the authorities would weigh the pros and cons of the action plan as suggested by rescue experts before making the final decision.

 

However, as it is not possible to pump all water out of some sections of the route due to their depth, authorities are considering training the children to dive.

 

According to a tentative action plan, two of the three phases of the rescue have already taken place. In the first phase, a group of four SEAL divers and rescue experts with survival kits and food will return and stay with the group for an unspecified period.

 

During this time, the experts will also conduct an additional structural survey of the site to ensure safety.

 

In the second phase, a doctor and other experts will join the group to do medical and related check-ups of all 13 persons and adjust their living conditions. 

 

In the third phase, more food will be supplied and there will be diving sessions for the boys while authorities continue to pump more water out of the cave network.

 

Externally, authorities have also stepped up efforts to divert water from fresh rains in other directions to minimise flooding inside the cave network.

 

Another option is to find a natural opening or drill an entry point near where the 13 persons have been stranded to get them out of the cave network through the roof.

 

Dr Suttisak Soralump of Kasetsart University, a geo-technical engineer, said his team had earlier drilled an exploratory hole in the cave network to help find natural openings near the site where the team is trapped.

 

The external drilling point is about 1,200 metres above sea level while Pattaya Beach, which is near where the team is located, is about 500 metres above sea level.

 

Bill Whitehouse, vice chairman of the British Cave Rescue Council, was quoted by CNN as suggesting that there are significant technical challenges and risks regarding the option to dive the kids out of the cave network.

 

Narrow passageways along the route could lead to serious complications during the rescue, he said.

 

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30349247

 

-- © Copyright The Nation 2018-07-04

[Fish Head Soup]

As I posted in another thread from watching a few interviews with some cave rescuers in the UK it seems the most logical and likely way to get them out is to get them comfortable using the masks to breath, wrap them up so they can't do damage if they panic, fix weights to them, and then transport them through the system like they would move equipment.

 

The other question would be that the Thai Seals have the name of 'Underwater Demolition Team', can they not widen the obstruction that is going to cause the main issue?

Edited July 3, 2018 by Fish Head Soup

[Thian]

They were 5 km deep in the cave, that's one hour walking single way..why did they have to go that deep? 

[Get Real]

52 minutes ago, webfact said:

the estimated 10km-long cave

Seems like the cave is getting longer day by day. If my memory don´t fail me, it started with around 7 km. Thats like 40% longer in only 12 days.

In my opinion they have to get them out very quick. If they wait 4 months with these numbers, they will have to walk or dive about 1,6 miles extra for every month that passes.

 

8 minutes ago, Thian said:

They were 5 km deep in the cave, that's one hour walking single way..why did they have to go that deep? 

Only one hour walking. I can not consider that especially long time or far, when exploring an interesting cave.
I guess you have to ask them when they come out.

 

 

However, they where not in Pattaya Beach area and they found them 400 meter deeper in the cave. I don´t se the big problem here. Drill a hole down to Pattaya Beach area and get them out quicker. If something cave in, the seal team is already there to have that fixed and removed quickly.

[webfact]

Outside Cave, Resolve And Anxiety Mingle Before Rescue

By Jintamas Saksornchai, Staff Reporter

 

Officers and rescue workers stay put among momentary calm early Tuesday evening near the Luang Cave complex in Chiang Rai province.

 

CHIANG RAI — Officers stand vigil to keep roads clear. Soldiers march through with fresh supplies. Water pumps work relentlessly while the local authority monitors electric cables. All are poised for a single purpose: bringing the 13 souls so close yet still out of reach back to a world perched on hope.

 

As people here and abroad welcomed the news that a desperate search had pivoted into rescue operation for 12 boys and their coach lost deep within a flooded cave, those working the muddy scene Tuesday were on standby, ready to take action whenever the moment came.

 

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/featured/2018/07/03/outside-cave-resolve-and-anxiety-mingle-before-rescue/

 

-- © Copyright Khaosod English 2018-07-04

[Prairieboy]

17 minutes ago, webfact said:

Officers and rescue workers stay put

They are well experienced at this occupation!

[neeray]

1 hour ago, Get Real said:

Seems like the cave is getting longer day by day. If my memory don´t fail me, it started with around 7 km. Thats like 40% longer in only 12 days.

In my opinion they have to get them out very quick. If they wait 4 months with these numbers, they will have to walk or dive about 1,6 miles extra for every month that passes.

 

Only one hour walking. I can not consider that especially long time or far, when exploring an interesting cave.
I guess you have to ask them when they come out.

 

 

However, they where not in Pattaya Beach area and they found them 400 meter deeper in the cave. I don´t se the big problem here. Drill a hole down to Pattaya Beach area and get them out quicker. If something cave in, the seal team is already there to have that fixed and removed quickly.

Drill Baby Drill

[bannork]

Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.

Winston Churchill (1942)

 

[lamyai3]

2 hours ago, Thian said:

They were 5 km deep in the cave, that's one hour walking single way..why did they have to go that deep? 

Chased back by rising water levels?

[jossthaifarang]

3 hours ago, Fish Head Soup said:

As I posted in another thread from watching a few interviews with some cave rescuers in the UK it seems the most logical and likely way to get them out is to get them comfortable using the masks to breath, wrap them up so they can't do damage if they panic, fix weights to them, and then transport them through the system like they would move equipment.

 

The other question would be that the Thai Seals have the name of 'Underwater Demolition Team', can they not widen the obstruction that is going to cause the main issue?

Got the same concept in mind, don't say anything on this platform mate. People will just shoot you down, keep this good idea to yourself and hope that one of the "Experts" thinks of it too..

[Formaleins]

Would it not be possible to plug the cave where the water is flowing in? I am sure that there are a large number of plump saffron clad monks that would be a perfect fit.

[Mikey421]

Drill Baby Drill

Would drilling not upset the air pressure balance that is preventing the waters from rising quickly?

Think of a diving bell or a bucket upside down over water. As long as the shell of the bucket is intact, air pressure prevents the water from filling the bucket from below. Punch a hole in the bucket and that positive pressure is lost and the bucket sinks.

I like the idea of the tubes run into the cave through the submerged sections, it is reasonably safe and very simple in concept ( think smarter, not harder ), and the KISS ( Keep It Simple, Silly rule ) works with this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mikey421]

Great idea, but how are they going to get the water out of the pipe once it is in there?

Pump it out...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mikey421]

Got the same concept in mind, don't say anything on this platform mate. People will just shoot you down, keep this good idea to yourself and hope that one of the "Experts" thinks of it too..

Explosives might cause a cave in as the rock in most of these areas are quite porous limestone formations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fake farang]

33 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

Would it not be possible to plug the cave where the water is flowing in? I am sure that there are a large number of plump saffron clad monks that would be a perfect fit.

Or just Mr. Sri

[bluesofa]

32 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

Would it not be possible to plug the cave where the water is flowing in? I am sure that there are a large number of plump saffron clad monks that would be a perfect fit.

Or even a number of large saffron clad monks. The more jammed in to each point the water enters would make it more watertight.

 

 

[fantom]

4 hours ago, Fish Head Soup said:

As I posted in another thread from watching a few interviews with some cave rescuers in the UK it seems the most logical and likely way to get them out is to get them comfortable using the masks to breath, wrap them up so they can't do damage if they panic, fix weights to them, and then transport them through the system like they would move equipment.

 

The other question would be that the Thai Seals have the name of 'Underwater Demolition Team', can they not widen the obstruction that is going to cause the main issue?

I think you make a good point, there is a note in the Bangkok  Post stating non of the boys can swim. I have not seen this mentioned elsewhere.

[neeray]

12 minutes ago, Mikey421 said:

Would drilling not upset the air pressure balance that is preventing the waters from rising quickly?

Think of a diving bell or a bucket upside down over water. As long as the shell of the bucket is intact, air pressure prevents the water from filling the bucket from below. Punch a hole in the bucket and that positive pressure is lost and the bucket sinks.

I like the idea of the tubes run into the cave through the submerged sections, it is reasonably safe and very simple in concept ( think smarter, not harder ), and the KISS ( Keep It Simple, Silly rule ) works with this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You have probably presented a very solid argument to my "drill baby drill". This is why there are professionals world-wide studying and consulting on this dilemma. What do we know?

[MikeN]

4 hours ago, Fish Head Soup said:

 

The other question would be that the Thai Seals have the name of 'Underwater Demolition Team', can they not widen the obstruction that is going to cause the main issue?

You want them to start blowing up the cave ? And bring the roof down, blocking the passageway ? Even in the best of conditions it would require precision placement of just the right amount of explosive in just the right places, drilled into the rock. That is not what they or any other SEAL team is trained for. And remember, the rock has nowhere to go, instead of smooth solid rock on the roof at best you would now have lots of sharp jagged boulders on the floor of a narrow passage, at worst a completely blocked route.

[Eric Loh]

One of the British team commented on CNN that a Chilean type rescue may be an option. Said that the limestone will be relatively easy to drill and a capsule lowered to bring them up. Took 69 days and drilled through 2070 feet of hard rocks in the Chilean's case. 

[Kerryd]

As mentioned in the other threads, the rock is made up of porous limestone. Kind of like a sponge made out of rock. It is full of small holes and tiny channels that the water can flow through. Over thousands of years, erosion has made some of those channels large enough for people to enter as smaller water channels have eroded and converged. There is no single water source that they could block/divert to lower the water levels as the entire area is like one big aquifer, slowly draining the rain water that has fallen over a large area.

 

It was mentioned that they are trying to find some of the larger water sources that drain through those caves and block/divert them. If they can block/divert enough water, it could be possible for the kids to walk out, even if the water is still deep in some parts of the cave.

Blasting would be out of the question as even a small blast could trigger a disastrous cave in. The pressure wave would be intensified by being in a confined space. (Remember the old adage about holding a firecracker on an open hand compared to holding it in a closed fist ?) A charge small enough that the risk is minimal would probably also be too small to be of any real use. A charge large enough to get the job done could cause more problems than it was meant to solve.

Imagine if they tried to blast a small obstruction in a spot where the divers have to take off their tanks to get through (so what, about 30" or 75cm ?). It could end up plugging that passageway completely and force them to try another method that could be just as risky (or worse). Not to mention it could also open up additional channels in the rocks that could result in more water flowing in that area as well.

Drilling is also risky. Remember, it wouldn't be some little 4" pipe. It'd be more like a 24" shaft (at least) in order to be able to use a rescue cage large enough to fit an adult. It would also be a shaft of approx 1.2 kilometers. That's a pretty large project. Not something Somchai and his 50 year old water drilling truck would be capable of.

 

Drilling a shaft that large through a rock "sponge" as I mentioned above could collapsing the roof of the cavern (remember, it isn't solid rock they are drilling through) and could risk flooding the chamber with water that is currently just dripping through tiny channels in the rock. 
It might be a safer option to try drilling into the "Pattaya Beach" cavern and if that is successful, move the group to that cavern for extraction. A much shorter distance for them to have to move and less risk if there was cave-in (in the Pattaya Beach cavern) during the drilling. 

One article said it could take "months" for the boys to get enough strength back to try and get out using diving gear. Not sure what planet the person who wrote that came from but I highly doubt it would take more than a week for a bunch of athletic kids to bounce back into shape. They'll probably be feeling revved up and ready to go with a few days of getting some proper nourishment and be chomping at the bit to do something, anything, to get out of there. A couple weeks of good food and basic training and they will probably be good to go.

 

Seriously. People who've never dove before in their lives can be SCUBA trained and qualified in a couple of days. The kids don't have to become Olympic swimmers. They don't have to become PADI master instructors. The actual time they would spend underwater may not be that long at all.

Everyone assumes it is going to be a 3 kilometer long underwater dive in pitch black conditions but it isn't. There are many stretches where the water isn't that deep (wading depth) or there is no water at all, interspersed with sections that are underwater. They will have ropes and lighting the entire way as well in addition to the SEALS and whoever else will be down there to help.
Having a couple weeks of training, loads of hi energy meals and 2 qualified divers to go with each kid the entire distance should be more than enough.

I think their best bet is to divert as much water as they can from entering the caverns, try to pump out as much as they can from the flooded sections and hope that it doesn't rain for a couple of weeks. If there's any sign of a topical storm heading that way, they'll have to move quick but they should be able to go within 2 weeks (or less) at the most. 

[metisdead]

A post of a commercial nature has been removed as well as the replies:

 

18) You will not post phone numbers, email addresses, business names, or web/Facebook/Twitter/Google+ addresses in posts or signatures. Web addresses to personal non-commercial sites sites/blogs, or Facebook/Twitter/Google+ addresses, may be posted in a member's profile page.

[webfact]

Thai lucky 13 found, but still stuck as divers draw up cave rescue plans

By Panu Wongcha-um and Patpicha Tanakasempipat

 

Boys from the under-16 soccer team trapped inside Tham Luang cave greet members of the Thai rescue team in Chiang Rai, Thailand, in this still image taken from a July 3, 2018 video by Thai Navy Seal. Thai Navy Seal/Handout via REUTERS TV

 

CHIANG RAI, Thailand (Reuters) - Rescuers battled intensifying rain to furiously pump water from a cave in Thailand on Tuesday, as officials thrashed out plans to extract a young soccer team located by divers after being trapped and incommunicado for 10 days.

 

Seven members of a Thai navy SEALS unit, including a medic and a counsellor, were staying with the group after its dramatic discovery on an elevated rock late on Monday by divers who had struggled for hours through narrow passages and murky waters.

 

News of the survival of the "Wild Boar" team sparked jubilation in a nation gripped by the harrowing drama, with news websites, social media and the prime minister celebrating the event and hailing the rescuers as heroes.

"Thank you all Thais, thank you all foreigners, everybody is a hero and everybody helped each other," Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-ocha told reporters.

 

A video shot by the rescuers in flickering torchlight 4 km (2.5 miles) from the mouth of the cave in Thailand's northernmost province showed boys clad in shorts and red and blue shirts sitting or standing on the rock above an expanse of water.

 

"How many of you are there - 13? Brilliant," a member of the multinational team tells the boys in English. "You have been here 10 days. You are very strong."

 

"Thank you," responded one of the boys.

 

Aged between 11 and 16, the boys and their 25-year-old coach went missing on June 23, after they set out to explore the caves in a forest park following a training session.

 

Rear Admiral Apakorn Yuukongkaew, commander of the SEALS unit, said rain was still a challenge but the boys would be taken out safely as soon as sufficient water could be pumped out of the cave.

 

"But if that doesn't work, with the seasonal rain, we'll do it another way," he told reporters.

 

"We have Plan 'A' and Plan 'B', and ultimately, everyone will return to their parents' embrace."

 

The 13 have been given a gel with high calorie and mineral content to sustain them while rescue plans are worked out.

 

Officials declined to say what plans 'A' and 'B' were, but said they aimed to bring the boys out the same way they had entered.

 

HIGH-PROFILE RESCUE

Options included teaching the group to use smaller diving apparatus and guiding them out of the caves, from which 120 million litres of water had been pumped continuously for 75 hours by Tuesday evening.

 

The SEALS tried to get phone lines into the cave to allow the boys to speak to parents and families staying at a nearby shelter throughout what could be Thailand's most high-profile rescue mission.

 

At the Tham Luang cave complex in Chiang Rai, security personnel turned away scores of people who came to show support, while more journalists joined hundreds of media representatives who have covered the drama blow-by-blow.

 

Two British divers experienced in cave rescues, John Volanthen and Rick Stanton, were first to reach the boys, accompanied by the SEALS divers.

 

Their search targeted an elevated mound they believed could have provided a refuge, but that was already flooded, so they went 400 metres (1,312 ft) further, and found the team.

 

News of the discovery sparked jubilation among relatives and rescuers and spread swiftly enough to figure on the front pages of Tuesday's newspapers.

 

"Found the 13 'Wild Boars', safe and preparing to come out," was the headline in the country's biggest daily, Thai Rath.

 

Caricatures of smiling volunteers, rescue workers and media spread on social media and messaging platforms, applauding a search mission that involved citizens of Australia, Britain, China, Japan, Myanmar and the United States, among others.

 

"Take our hearts - thank you," read one cartoon, while another read "You are our heroes," followed by "Thank you," in eight languages.

 

Thais posted messages of joy and relief on Facebook, showering praise on Chiang Rai governor Narongsak Osottanakorn. "Have to applaud this man," said one, while another asked, "Why not try for prime minister?"

 

His deputy, Passakorn Bunyalak, dismissed rumours that the mission could last up to four months, but said the boys' safety was paramount and their extraction should not be rushed.

 

Sura Jeetwatee, a doctor involved in the operations, said the team survived by staying put and drinking water that dripped from stalactite formations.

 

SEALS commander Apakorn said the flow of a cave stream had slowed and water once at head level was now at shin level. He said the boys were in relatively good condition.

 

"The children have been in there for ten days, they have food, doctors – they are doing well," he said. "There is no rush."

 

(Additional reporting by Chayut Setboonsarng, Pracha Hariraksapitak, Panarat Thepgumpanat and Amy Sawitta Lefevre; Writing by Martin Petty; Editing by Clarence Fernandez)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-07-04

[Justfine]

5 hours ago, Get Real said:

Seems like the cave is getting longer day by day. If my memory don´t fail me, it started with around 7 km. Thats like 40% longer in only 12 days.

In my opinion they have to get them out very quick. If they wait 4 months with these numbers, they will have to walk or dive about 1,6 miles extra for every month that passes.

 

Only one hour walking. I can not consider that especially long time or far, when exploring an interesting cave.
I guess you have to ask them when they come out.

 

 

However, they where not in Pattaya Beach area and they found them 400 meter deeper in the cave. I don´t se the big problem here. Drill a hole down to Pattaya Beach area and get them out quicker. If something cave in, the seal team is already there to have that fixed and removed quickly.

Oh dear.

[Tug]

On the positive side I’m sure they have good stout guide ropes rigged if most of it can be traversed with your head above water that helps with the visibility keeping the 0 visibility diving to a minimum I think the current is behind them so that’s a help as long as it is slow but what do I know I’m not there all I can do is hope and admire the teamwork

[Just1Voice]

The good news is that they found the boys and their coach, alive & well.  The bad new is: How the hell do we get them out? 

[Justfine]

Just now, Just1Voice said:

The good news is that they found the boys and their coach, alive & well.  The bad new is: How the hell do we get them out? 

The experts will be doing that. "We" won't be doing it.

[Eric Loh]

31 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

I think their best bet is to divert as much water as they can from entering the caverns, try to pump out as much as they can from the flooded sections and hope that it doesn't rain for a couple of weeks. If there's any sign of a topical storm heading that way, they'll have to move quick but they should be able to go within 2 weeks (or less) at the most. 

A well thought out post. There is a small window of opportunity of probably 2-3 days to pump enough water out before the monsoon rain start falling weekend. The admiral from the Thai SEAL team did comment that some part of the water filled caverns were now shin deep. Still portion flooded may pose some serious challenges to the young boys who have are not good swimmers. Will be arduous task to train them in a couple of days for a swim that even the British divers said was extremely difficult for them.  

 

I also read that attempts to find another another passage from the top and drilling have started but the difficulty will be trying to find the roof of the cavern where the boys and coach are. Perhaps they may moved them to another safer location for the drilling to be successful. Hopefully they can locate another passage way which is not flooded. Finger crosses. The next few days will be most telling in getting them out before the heavy monsoon start which will complicate the situation. 

[BobbyL]

3 minutes ago, Just1Voice said:

The good news is that they found the boys and their coach, alive & well.  The bad new is: How the hell do we get them out? 

This is the big part now.

 

They were always going to find them at some point. Finding them all alive and safe is incredible, but no celebrating yet. 

 

I have dived twice in Australia and hated the experience. These kids, who can't swim, might have to do this in a cave network to escape ?

[bluesofa]

I apologise if this has been posted elsewhere on here already - there are a lot of threads on the subject.

 

My wife has just told me on Thai TV they have been talking about the two Brits finding the kids:

Apparently according to Thai TV, the Brits were marking the route in advance for the Thai Seals.

The rope they had laid to mark the route had just run out, so they came up for a breather before returning back. That was when they came across the kids.