Is a joke or? Another one that uses a disgrace as an advertisement platform. In the last few days, we got the information that the space in the cave is even not enough for a diver who carrying the oxygen, that looks to be bigger than a diver! I hope the kids are soon out there is beginning to be a real nightmare for all those peoples that like only to see the guys alive! Take you submarine and let the good peoples there make their job.

1 hour ago, CGW said:

Why do you assume the kids are mentally unable to cope?, they got in their without panic when there was no water, why would they now go into full out panic mode, I think you underestimate the power of the human being.

I assume nothing about their mental and physical distress, just highlighting what doctors have said about their condition. Perhaps it is you that need to do a bit of research for assuming sitting in a cave this long without food would mean they are as good as gold. Try it yourself if you don't believe it. And you know you'd make a really great dive boat operator. You'd just tell everyone not to bother getting certified as is the law because you believe in the power of the human being. It's appalling how eager you are to give these innocent children a shove without thinking a little more about their health and safety or the demands of what they are being asked to do.

 

1 minute ago, canopy said:

I assume nothing about their mental and physical distress, just highlighting what doctors have said about their condition. Perhaps it is you that need to do a bit of research for assuming sitting in a cave this long without food would mean they are as good as gold. Try it yourself if you don't believe it. And you know you'd make a really great dive boat operator. You'd just tell everyone not to bother getting certified as is the law because you believe in the power of the human being. It's appalling how eager you are to give these innocent children a shove without thinking a little more about their health and safety or the demands of what they are being asked to do.

OK, thats your opinion, it is different to mine, try to remain polite ?

Have a nice day...

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

I'm not sure why being sealed into this would be less scary for a child than being towed behind a diver. In fact I would think the opposite. Being close to 2 rescuers in whom they have developed trust would do more to calm them.

 

If a kid panics in a sealed tube, he's still going to survive.  If a kid panics on SCUBA being towed behind a diver, even one he has confidence in, the odds go down. 

 

Musk started this project -on his own $$$- when nobody had a clue how they were going to get the kids out, and they had just sent them 4 months worth of food.  At the time, there was every indication that they'd have weeks or months to test the units.  Depleting oxygen, increasing CO2 and torrential rains have forced their hand.  Kudos to the guy anyway for even trying.  Which is a lot more than some of his detractors posting from their barstools contributed.

 

This is total B.S. and I think I am qualified as I used to design and build mini submarines at Perrry Submarine for 10 Years for the oil industry and US military. I am also a diver. The plan the rescuers have seems to be quite effective. An inflatable that size would have a bouyancy of over a thousand pounds. What an idiot statement. 

2 minutes ago, Timebandit said:

This is total B.S. and I think I am qualified as I used to design and build mini submarines at Perrry Submarine for 10 Years for the oil industry and US military. I am also a diver. The plan the rescuers have seems to be quite effective. An inflatable that size would have a bouyancy of over a thousand pounds. What an idiot statement. 

 

That's why God invented ballast.

 

Just now, impulse said:

 

That's why God invented ballast.

 

 

What Lead you to that conclusion? ?

That thing looks way too stiff and inflexible to me. If this is the best thing a 'car in space spaceman' (yeah, right!) genius can do - I think genius is overrated.

 

Edited July 9, 20188 yr by Eligius

11 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

That's why God invented ballast.

 

So in reality you need more space for the ballast?

Suppository -X. 

7 minutes ago, CGW said:

19 minutes ago, impulse said:

That's why God invented ballast.

So in reality you need more space for the ballast?

 

Here's my point- It's an engineering problem.  There are solutions to just about any that may pop up. 

 

But you have to have something in the works to start solving them.  Or, you can just throw up your arms, claim the idea's not going to work and live with the results.

 

Just to be clear, the solution currently underway was not identified as the safest, or anywhere near an ideal solution.  It was just the safest one that's available in the time crunch before the depleting O2, increasing CO2, or rising water killed the kids and anyone unfortunate enough to be in the cave with them.  Musk was working on a backup plan.  Maybe it didn't come to fruition, but at least he was doing something.  On his dime, no less.  Kudos to the guy for that. 

 

Edited July 9, 20188 yr by impulse

Can't imagine this capsule can fit throug this one narrow place where the divers have to take off their bottles to pass.
But, if heavy rains would prevent the rescue of the last 5 then I am pretty sure they will knock on Musk's door again.
Of course in general it's just a publicity stunt.

Sent from my ASUS_X008D using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

3 hours ago, Hank Gunn said:

 

 

First, post #2: "Didn't read the whole article..." I counted a total of 9 sentences and two videos (1:40 and 0:21, totaling 2:01 minutes). Both videos show his solution working, albeit in a controlled environment.

 

Post #4: Watch the video. It's already been tested with someone inside and seemed to work fine.

 

Post #5: There's no training/retraining necessary for a qualified diver who knows about diving equipment. It's simply a "mini-sub" supplied with an air tank, so instead of breathing directly from a mouthpiece, the person is breathing air supplied to the container from the attached SCUBA gear.

 

Post #6: Fourth sentence into the OP "When asked if there was enough room for the pod to maneuver inside the cave, Musk said: "According to divers who have made the passage, yes. However, we also made an exact replica that is inflatable, so that the entire path can be tested without risk of blockage". Also, "He also said he has designed a second pod which is 30cm smaller and which is "almost complete"."

 

And, Post #7: Actually, one of the biggest dangers in a rescue like this, where you've got people who have to use equipment (SCUBA gear) that they're not used to using and are also prone to panicking, a solution like this is much better. Someone in a self-contained unit like that will be unable to cause harm to themselves or to their rescuers if isolated in that device. 

 

On the other thread about E. Musk volunteering his help, people said developing and shipping over equipment would take months. Approx. one day later, with less than 1/3 of the team extracted (last I've seen only four boys have been extracted) and he's developed a very valid, potential solution (especially considering the main challenge of dealing with the lack of diving expertise of the trapped team) that's been tested.

 

Now, is this the perfect solution? No, and I'm not claiming it is, but it certainly appears to be a valid one, especially if the issue of one or more of the kids panicking becomes a concern. It just seems ironic that when a real solution is offered, and not just an empty tweet with a boast or a claim, that people here start responding with an attitude of "ridiculous" without any seeming logical analysis. This is especially true with the fact that on the thread about not apportioning blame on the coach for leading the kids into the cave in the first place, that the majority of people claim that everyone should be "positive".

So just because you think this solution is right you think that the rescuers have to throw away their existing risk assessment(s) and planning which have taken hours to do and then do the same thing with new equipment introduced into the equation?.

Edited July 9, 20188 yr by Sheryl
quoted text edited by Moderator to remove 2 sentences in interests of civility

5 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

Without having read the whole article.

Mr Tube: this is a risky rescue operation and not a field trial for some of your ex-centric high tech ideas.

Thanks for your goodwill, handshake and good trip home.

Please find another PR opportunity.

Sorry, I don't agree with you, I think it is an admirable plan and very generous at that, I hope they try it. 

I believe the least fit are the last to come out, it may be worth a try. 

Just now, rosst said:

I believe the least fit are the last to come out, it may be worth a try. 

 

Peoples lives are at risk and you want to try an intellectual exercise idea?

2 hours ago, tifino said:

 

unless the Tesla batteries can power it in Peyronie Mode

Don't be daft. It has solar cells. No need for batteries.............?

2 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

On the upside, it ships with a mini Raquel Welch doll...

 

 

it is 2018.  you may want to say angelina jolie or shakira

I wouldn’t use it those kids are going through a 0 visibility dive that’s nerve racking enough for an experienced diver the human contact and bond of having someone close touching and guiding is huge and is probably 50% of the reason for success + those wild boar team boys are tough!btw I am a retired construction diver with 34 years in the field it’s incredible what that team is pulling off the upmost respect to all involved kudos blessings safty and continued success tug

1 hour ago, Timebandit said:

This is total B.S. and I think I am qualified as I used to design and build mini submarines at Perrry Submarine for 10 Years for the oil industry and US military. I am also a diver. The plan the rescuers have seems to be quite effective. An inflatable that size would have a bouyancy of over a thousand pounds. What an idiot statement. 

unless it has a compartment for head filled with breathable air and a compartment sealing off the body below the head filled with water as ballast.  looking at the video of the prototype being tested underwater i would take a wild guess as a non submarine builder that musk's engineers overcame the 1000 lb buoyancy issue that would be glaringly obvious to any engineer.

30 minutes ago, sandrabbit said:

So just because you think this solution is right you think that the rescuers have to throw away their existing risk assessment(s) and planning which have taken hours to do and then do the same thing with new equipment introduced into the equation?.

Now where in the hell did I say anything about discarding any risk assessments that have already been performed. Not only did I NOT say anything about that, I also did not claim that this proposed solution should replace any current methodology to get the team out.  From my post: "Now, is this the perfect solution? No, and I'm not claiming it is..."

 

I was merely pointing out how everyone was dismissing out of hand, a very viable option if current practices don't work as well as hoped, and showing how people were dismissing this idea due to what I can only assume from their posts, some bitter, personal bias against Mr. Musk, rather than using basic logic.

12 minutes ago, atyclb said:

unless it has a compartment for head filled with breathable air and a compartment sealing off the body below the head filled with water as ballast.  looking at the video of the prototype being tested underwater i would take a wild guess as a non submarine builder that musk's engineers overcame the 1000 lb buoyancy issue that would be glaringly obvious to any engineer.

but why risk 'what if's' when they are actually following a plan which has been agreed and accepted by all the rescuers involved?.

20 minutes ago, Tug said:

I wouldn’t use it those kids are going through a 0 visibility dive that’s nerve racking enough for an experienced diver the human contact and bond of having someone close touching and guiding is huge and is probably 50% of the reason for success + those wild boar team boys are tough!btw I am a retired construction diver with 34 years in the field it’s incredible what that team is pulling off the upmost respect to all involved kudos blessings safty and continued success tug

Agree completely. Their contact with the rescue divers throughout, even in murky water, is very important. At the narrow spots the diver in front physically pulls them through, they can feel that and feeling those human hands must make a difference. Of course they'd be pulled in the capsule too but it would not feel the same.  And the sense of claustrophobia would be an issue for many kids.

 

Nothing wrong with having developed this device and certainly, having done so, should extensively test it out in various simulations so that it can be fine tuned as needed and available  as an option in the future.

 

During an actual rescue operation is not a good time to deploy  a newly (and rapidly) developed device never before used, unless there is absolutely no other choice. So far at least there has been another choice, one that the experts on the scene thought the kids could handle and so far they've been proven correct.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Hank Gunn said:

Now where in the hell did I say anything about discarding any risk assessments that have already been performed. Not only did I NOT say anything about that, I also did not claim that this proposed solution should replace any current methodology to get the team out.  From my post: "Now, is this the perfect solution? No, and I'm not claiming it is..."

 

I was merely pointing out how everyone was dismissing out of hand, a very viable option if current practices don't work as well as hoped, and showing how people were dismissing this idea due to what I can only assume from their posts, some bitter, personal bias against Mr. Musk, rather than using basic logic.

'Post #5: There's no training/retraining necessary for a qualified diver who knows about diving equipment. It's simply a "mini-sub" supplied with an air tank, so instead of breathing directly from a mouthpiece, the person is breathing air supplied to the container from the attached SCUBA gear.'

 

Well in my opinion this means throwing away the existing risk assessment ...... 

4 minutes ago, sandrabbit said:

'Post #5: There's no training/retraining necessary for a qualified diver who knows about diving equipment. It's simply a "mini-sub" supplied with an air tank, so instead of breathing directly from a mouthpiece, the person is breathing air supplied to the container from the attached SCUBA gear.'

 

Well in my opinion this means throwing away the existing risk assessment ...... 

Read my point about logic. Not having to learn to use SCUBA equipment/techniques, as well as techniques for cave diving (due to being enclosed in the "capsule"/mini-sub) actually reduces risk, and since it's basically a variation of the current removal/rescue methodology (i.e. dragging evacuees and their tanks (sometimes on their persons, sometimes off) through the cave) there is no real difference in risk assessment (i.e. what to do if a child gets stuck in a passage way).

5 minutes ago, Hank Gunn said:

Read my point about logic. Not having to learn to use SCUBA equipment/techniques, as well as techniques for cave diving (due to being enclosed in the "capsule"/mini-sub) actually reduces risk, and since it's basically a variation of the current removal/rescue methodology (i.e. dragging evacuees and their tanks (sometimes on their persons, sometimes off) through the cave) there is no real difference in risk assessment (i.e. what to do if a child gets stuck in a passage way).

it's a big difference no matter how many times you post it, requiring a change of risk assessment and action planning. In offshore & nuclear installations they make huge changes to planning on minor changes to the plan. 

Edited July 9, 20188 yr by sandrabbit

2 hours ago, one baht said:

Acute Claustrophobia is a huge point against this type of operation much better to  buddy tow

So it's better if an evacuee suffers an acute claustrophobia/panic attack and does something irrational like accidentally grab a guides mask or breathing apparatus, as opposed to being isolated in a tube, where they can't really do anything. And if you've seen photos of the cave, you'll know that there's a real possibility of suffering "acute claustrophobia" even without being in a tube.

 

So I would disagree with the assertion that it's "much better" to buddy tow.

2 hours ago, Cake Monster said:

Too damn big, and not flexible

Stick to space rockets.

I guess you also didn't read the OP where it stated that he designed the "pod" to fit within the size constraints as communicated to him by one of the rescuers.

I used to admire Musk.  No more.  The shameless way he's inserted himself into the the news cycle, self-promoting and distracting from the real work that real experts are doing, is disgusting.  Continuing with press releases and tweets long after the rescue effort has begun (and is not more than half completed) borders on the pathetic. A rich, self-important attention addict.

1 hour ago, Timebandit said:

This is total B.S. and I think I am qualified as I used to design and build mini submarines at Perrry Submarine for 10 Years for the oil industry and US military. I am also a diver. The plan the rescuers have seems to be quite effective. An inflatable that size would have a bouyancy of over a thousand pounds. What an idiot statement. 

So you didn't see the prototype being used under water without popping to the surface of the test pool? They obviously worked out the buoyancy/balast equation.

2 minutes ago, Hank Gunn said:

So you didn't see the prototype being used under water without popping to the surface of the test pool? They obviously worked out the buoyancy/balast equation.

Is that you JAZZDOG?