When Are The Subjects Of Class, Race, And Sex Taboo?

[jamman]

A previous post ended up dead, because some people were offended. I find it a bit telling when people get offended but would prefer to say that the topic should not be discussed, rather than discuss what it is that is offensive.

This post is not a troll - it is sincere. If you find the ideas distasteful, please either discuss why, or read no further. I will say nothing hateful, nor promote any negative bias to any person or group.

Thais have strong class differences. There are class differences in all cultures. So are we allowed to notice what these differences are? Is a person being "classist" if he talks about someone acting as a low class person? I was naive to class differences until I dated several women from many different class backgrounds - all the way from a gettho girl with a family history of incest, gambling, drug and alcohol abuse, to a Professor of Antropology in UC Berkley. Education and backgrounds make a huge difference to what a person is able to see and engage with.

So is talking about this being "classist"?

The previous post was also acused of being racist:

---------

" impediments to communication with your lower class better half? Or have a classy woman but seek out second wives to round out the unfulfilled needs"

Moderators, please remove this racist drivel.

----------

Nowhere was race mentioned. I suggest that the person who was offended by racism is racist - as they assumed that race was implied. There are lower class girls in all races. Why was race assumed?

And again, if we admit that there are CULTURAL (not race) differences, then are we allowed to openly talk about them, without being "racist", or "culturalist, or what have you?

Why are people offended by the fact that people are very different from each other, and that we can compare our differences. That we are not all equal at all. We can talk about individual and group differences. Why does that offend?

And don't you want to be able to talk accurately about differences, so that you won't be blind next time you fall in love - so that you will know what is a reasonable expectation?

My post was also accused of being sexist. I don't see why. It would take very little imagination to reverse the gender terms. The post would still hold its full meaning. "I don’t expect to mold a woman into a better one." could just as easily be "I don’t expect to mold a man into a better one." And what is sexist in that?

It seems to me people get on edge any time there are comparisons made between individuals or groups.

Why is that? Do the P.C. terrorists win?

Edited February 4, 2007 by jamman

[Mobi]

Why is that? Do the P.C. terrorists win?

I hope not.

Good post, and IMO certainly not racist or sexist.

Let's see how long the thread keeps open

[qualtrough]

There are quite a few things that cannot be discussed on this forum, but especially irksome is that mod issues cannot even be discussed.

Edited February 4, 2007 by qualtrough

[chownah]

The class thing eludes me completely. Seems like it is usually Brits that talk about class and you will usually not find Yanks talking about this....I guess the main reason is obvious.

Chownah

[jamman]

The class thing eludes me completely. Seems like it is usually Brits that talk about class and you will usually not find Yanks talking about this....I guess the main reason is obvious.

Chownah

As a Canadian, I was also oblivious to class. Nowadays I think that the idea of class is meaningful, if instead of focusing on the wealth of the persons family background, you focus on the culture of respect for learning, and respect for empathy and kindness.

A person of a background of neglect is from a low class background, and very often, this will affect them. Conversely a person from a background of attentive care and encouragement will be affected. Generations of attentive care and encouragement usually lead to prosperity, of one sort or another. And generations of neglect lead to overall impoverishment.

I've lived in a Filipine gettho, in love with a gettho girl. Class is a valid concept.

[sceadugenga]

What if the prof from Berkley was a former ghetto dweller. surely she would retain some trace of lower classness to offend your sensibilities?

Don't you mean that the people who offend you are those who don't strive for self improvement? Surely the daughter of Harvard graduates who never finished highschool would be a bigger waste of time conversationally than a Harvard graduate from the Bronx? (If the Bronx is now an upper class housing developement, forgive me, I'm not from the US.)

We discussed racism on another forum recently where I said that because I grew up in a middle class white environment I assumed everyone else was the same, the poor and other ethnic groups were just quaint figures in movies. Because of this I think I tend to take people as I find them, regardless of race or social status. People who grew up in neighborhoods with warring street gangs probably have a less tolerant approach.

Strangely enough it's my nose that puts me off people, if you don't smell good, don't expect me to have much to do with you.

[jamman]

What if the prof from Berkley was a former ghetto dweller. surely she would retain some trace of lower classness to offend your sensibilities?

Don't you mean that the people who offend you are those who don't strive for self improvement? Surely the daughter of Harvard graduates who never finished highschool would be a bigger waste of time conversationally than a Harvard graduate from the Bronx? (If the Bronx is now an upper class housing developement, forgive me, I'm not from the US.)

We discussed racism on another forum recently where I said that because I grew up in a middle class white environment I assumed everyone else was the same, the poor and other ethnic groups were just quaint figures in movies. Because of this I think I tend to take people as I find them, regardless of race or social status. People who grew up in neighborhoods with warring street gangs probably have a less tolerant approach.

Strangely enough it's my nose that puts me off people, if you don't smell good, don't expect me to have much to do with you.

I'm not sure why you assume that lower class people offend me, or my sensibilities. I suggest that you challenge that assumption in yourself.

What if the Prof was from a lower class background? Then she stepped out of that wheel of karma, and did not accept neglect and abuse as what defined her - she made something different of herself. Good job. We all must do that, to some degree - and every day.

I'm not following your meaning about the conversational value of the high school drop out daughter of the Harvard graduate, and the graduate from the bronx. I guess you are implying that I think that the daughters parents are more important than she is. I suggest that you ask yourself why you assume that I think this.

As I said, I think of class mostly in terms of curiosity and empathy. People are influenced from their environment, and these traits can be both suppressed and nurtured. If a person finds them regardless of their background, then they are classy.

We have all heard stories of generations of neglect and abuse, and we've heard stories of generations of very attentive nurturing. I see no offense in noticing what differences arise from our environment, and labelling these differences. It doesn't have to offend our sensibilities to see the world clearly. To see it in all its beauty and ugliness, and to still love it, that is the challenge.

I loved and still love my crazy gettho girl. She's incredible. And incredibly damaged.

[Smilodon]

I don't concern myself with someone's background so much as what choices they are making, and have made. Reminds me of a saying I got from the Holy Spirit once:

People don't care what you can't do, they care what you can do.

People don't care what you can do, they care what you will do.

People don't care what you will do, they care what you have done.

And, people don't care what you have done, they care what you are doing.

[jamman]

I don't concern myself with someone's background so much as what choices they are making, and have made. Reminds me of a saying I got from the Holy Spirit once:

People don't care what you can't do, they care what you can do.

People don't care what you can do, they care what you will do.

People don't care what you will do, they care what you have done.

And, people don't care what you have done, they care what you are doing.

Yes, that's right. That's why you can have low class people from wealthy backgrounds.

[h90]

"Why is that? Do the P.C. terrorists win?"

No the political correct wins.....

Try to make such a topic in germany or austria and you get very bad backfeeding.

Also why not discuss races? It is obvious that there are differences. Some have per race no theet problems while we europeans all get more or less problems. Or some races get very tall while other keep very small. Am I a racist if I figure that out?

[jdinasia]

If at first you don't succedd ... try try again.

I guess that being classist works for some people ... not for me though.

[sceadugenga]

What if the prof from Berkley was a former ghetto dweller. surely she would retain some trace of lower classness to offend your sensibilities?

Don't you mean that the people who offend you are those who don't strive for self improvement? Surely the daughter of Harvard graduates who never finished highschool would be a bigger waste of time conversationally than a Harvard graduate from the Bronx? (If the Bronx is now an upper class housing developement, forgive me, I'm not from the US.)

We discussed racism on another forum recently where I said that because I grew up in a middle class white environment I assumed everyone else was the same, the poor and other ethnic groups were just quaint figures in movies. Because of this I think I tend to take people as I find them, regardless of race or social status. People who grew up in neighborhoods with warring street gangs probably have a less tolerant approach.

Strangely enough it's my nose that puts me off people, if you don't smell good, don't expect me to have much to do with you.

I'm not sure why you assume that lower class people offend me, or my sensibilities. I suggest that you challenge that assumption in yourself.

What if the Prof was from a lower class background? Then she stepped out of that wheel of karma, and did not accept neglect and abuse as what defined her - she made something different of herself. Good job. We all must do that, to some degree - and every day.

I'm not following your meaning about the conversational value of the high school drop out daughter of the Harvard graduate, and the graduate from the bronx. I guess you are implying that I think that the daughters parents are more important than she is. I suggest that you ask yourself why you assume that I think this.

As I said, I think of class mostly in terms of curiosity and empathy. People are influenced from their environment, and these traits can be both suppressed and nurtured. If a person finds them regardless of their background, then they are classy.

We have all heard stories of generations of neglect and abuse, and we've heard stories of generations of very attentive nurturing. I see no offense in noticing what differences arise from our environment, and labelling these differences. It doesn't have to offend our sensibilities to see the world clearly. To see it in all its beauty and ugliness, and to still love it, that is the challenge.

I loved and still love my crazy gettho girl. She's incredible. And incredibly damaged.

Sorry, I've obviously missed something in your original post. Perhaps I should seek out the dead post you mention.

Isn't class distinction all about excluding people from your class if you're higher up the ladder?

I'm curious about your stay in a Philippino ghetto. Do you mean a slum area? I doubt if it was Tondo, the Manila slum area, or you wouldn't be writing now. Did you choose to live there or did your girl friend refuse to leave? Or was it a desire for some sort of anthropological experience. Please don't find these questions offensive, I'm just curious as I've lived in some strange places myself.

Edited February 4, 2007 by sceadugenga

[jamman]

Sorry, I've obviously missed something in your original post. Perhaps I should seek out the dead post you mention.

Isn't class distinction all about excluding people from your class if you're higher up the ladder?

I'm curious about your stay in a Philippino ghetto. Do you mean a slum area? I doubt if it was Tondo, the Manila slum area, or you wouldn't be writing now. Did you choose to live there or did your girl friend refuse to leave? Or was a desire for some sort of anthropological experience. Please don't find these questions offensive, I'm just curious as I've lived in some strange places myself.

I suppose some people do exclude from their company people from lower classes. But being able to see and talk about class differences doesn't automatically imply that we have to or want to do that.

I lived in Cebu City, in an area of mixed land holders and squatters. Some nice houses, some made poorly from scavenged materials. Sometimes children go to bed hungry, for lack of rice. Not everyone can afford to send their children to school, and some parents actually discourage it, out of jealousy. There are 11 year old prostitutes. There is screaming between husbands and wives at night. Sometimes parents do drugs or booze or gamble instead of buy rice for their family.

And the place is full of life, vibrant, and mostly pretty happy. Great fun to gather in a local field with a boom box and drink and dance the night away.

Once the locals know that you are part of a family, you are protected. I would walk around at any time of night or day.

We spent part of our time there, and part of our time in our beach bungalow in a tourist diving town. We stayed in her families compound in the gettho while in Cebu City as she has two kids, and likes to hang with her family, and we set up our pad into a comfortable enough place with internet connection and cable TV and kitchen and all we needed. Cebu city was good for nights out at the Sunflower disco, and hanging out in the mall, and Moalboal was great for the clean air and snorkelling and easy simple lifestyle.

Edited February 4, 2007 by jamman

[sceadugenga]

Sorry, I've obviously missed something in your original post. Perhaps I should seek out the dead post you mention.

Isn't class distinction all about excluding people from your class if you're higher up the ladder?

I'm curious about your stay in a Philippino ghetto. Do you mean a slum area? I doubt if it was Tondo, the Manila slum area, or you wouldn't be writing now. Did you choose to live there or did your girl friend refuse to leave? Or was a desire for some sort of anthropological experience. Please don't find these questions offensive, I'm just curious as I've lived in some strange places myself.

I suppose some people do exclude from their company people from lower classes. But being able to see and talk about class differences doesn't automatically imply that we have to or want to do that.

I lived in Cebu City. Once the locals know that you are part of a family, you are protected. I would walk around at any time of night or day.

We spent part of our time there, and part of our time in our beach bungalow in a tourist diving town. We stayed in her families compound in the gettho while in Cebu City as she has two kids, and likes to hang with her family, and we set up our pad into a comfortable enough place with internet connection and cable TV and kitchen and all we needed. Cebu city was good for nights out at the Sunflower disco, and hanging out in the mall, and Moalboal was great for the clean air and snorkelling and easy simple lifestyle.

Right, I liked Cebu City myself. Only short term stays though, I spent time there with a crazed Australian Vietnam Vet once who showed me some of the seedier nightlife.

I had a girlfriend in the PI who took me to her home in Bulacan province outside Manila, a squatters town on the side of a hill. The poverty was astounding but the family units were incredibly strong. Everyone did what they could and pooled the net result for the survival of the children.

[Smilodon]

Who someone was born to, how much money they have, what country they are from are of no concern to me. Their character is what is a concern, far more than their surroundings.

Take a potential wife, for example. I don't care if she was born in a hog pen way out in the country or in a golden throne. Whether she has a second-grade education or teaches astrophysics at Harvard. Of course, I have preferences, because when it comes to marriage this is a different thing than hiring someone for a job, to me, such as how she looks, native intelligence, whether she shows a capacty for enjoying affection, which are tastes, not moral judgments. Some guys like their women dumb. I like 'em smart. If, on top of smart she is also well-read and knowledgeable, so much the better. But if she is smart and doesn't want to learn a thing, I don't particularly like that. I love learning. We would be incompatible.

Choices, to me, define a person. Not their race, ethnic background, financial background, family history, money, country, looks, or anything else. If it is regarding marriage, it would be a disaster not to be very attracted, physically, to my wife, and I wouldn't marry someone, for her sake and mine that I didn't think was a knockout, and who didn't find me extremely attractive.

I understand that background can have a large influence on your choices. Which is why many people look so carefully at someone's family history, because it is such a strong influence. I have heard Christian women talk about wanting to marry, or find a guy for their daughter to marry, who has a "Godly heritage," i.e. they come from a Christian family. I laughed at that, though I am flag-waving Jesus freak because I don't give a rat what a girls family is like, I want to know that she is a Christian through and through, not just so I will like her. I have known plenty of high quality Christian girls whose families sucked. I have known Christian families that have produced expert sinners, too. I don't put any stock in background.

From what I've read, in Thailand, having some chick show up at your office that is too dark-skinned can be considered a major no-no. And that the pale-skinned Thais regard themselves as far superior to the dark-skinned ones. As much as I love rankling uptight morons, I would take grand delight in flaunting any woman I was dating, especially in front of those who figured they were superior, morally or otherwise, to either of us

If someone's prejudice were a plate of soggy cooked spinach, and my showing up with some beauty that they considered themselves better than was having to have their face rubbed in it, then I will gladly grab them by the hair on the back of their head, and smash their face into the plate until I have punched their face, the spinach, and the plate all the way through the fricking table to the floor. Figuratively speaking, of course. Especially when they claim to be above such attitudes, or purport to subscribe to a belief system that requires them to be.

While I would not target someone who has been a prostitute or a slut as being my first choice for marriage, supposing I did find a girl who had forsaken that life before knowing me, of her own free will, I wouldn't give a rat who thought what. I mean, if God can take the apostle Paul, who formerly murdered Christians as a job and turn him into arguably the greatest apostle as recorded in the New Testament, he can transform someone from any kind of lifestyle into a champion.

I understand, to some extent, why people emphasize class, background, or education as being so important. If they have nothing more powerful to lean on, then they go with what they can. I just consider the transforming power of the gospel of Christ, and the choices a person makes right now, to have far more power than some past family, country, education, or sin.

[Smilodon]

Yes, that's right. That's why you can have low class people from wealthy backgrounds.

Good point.

[jamman]

Yes, that's right. That's why you can have low class people from wealthy backgrounds.

Good point.

I agree with you that we have to see clearly what a person does, not where they have been.

And you also agree that our backgrounds do tend to have an effect on us.

The notions of class, are therefore nuanced. It isn't a yes or no, black and white thing. It isn't defined by the wealth of a persons parents. The idea may be slippery, even slightly elusive, but it is, IMO, still meaningful. There are character traits that are low class, there are whole groups of people who teach these character traits to each other.

We may be able to make choices, but there is also an over-arching pattern that our previous choices will affect our current choices. That's called Karma. What we did affects what we are likely to do. Our environment doesn't make us do things - we can still chose, but it does affect us, and the choices we are likely to make.

I once had a fiance who had abusive parents. Her sister wound up being seriously closed minded and totally closed down to her libido, and had mood problems, while my fiance worked very hard at healing her past, to become an incredibly empathetic and talented and educated woman. Now that's a classy woman. If I call her classy, I think you know what I mean. The word means something. There are low class people, and high class people. Low class families, and high class families.

It needn't be a taboo word.

Edited February 4, 2007 by jamman

[fruittbatt]

IMO it makes sense to speak in terms of class, race, religion, or gender when conducting comparative research that might benefit a particular group.

Using class or gender in order to discriminate against a person is to buy into a divisive "us" and "them" worldview, a conflict mentality. I think we all do this because we've been taught to think and speak in terms of opposites rather than seeing difference as complementary, as "two faces of the same coin".

Jamman, you use "class" as a knife to cut the world into acceptable and unacceptable people (those who don't meet your criteria of initiative or "classiness"). Why is it that we human beings cannot simply accept that everyone is unique and valuable as a fellow inhabitant of the planet regardless of their achievements/failures/strengths/weaknesses/race/gender/class etc?

[Smilodon]

I guess that in the heirarchy of human division, there are, in (varying) order of rigidity, (or difficulty to bust out, rise above, or abandon):

Castes

Classes

Countries

Socioeconomic groups

Friends

Acquaintances

Communities

When a bunch of willfully ignorant, drunkard bigots got together, that would be regarded, by most, to be low class. It isn't so much class, in the British tradition, but a background or tendency that was not negated by any different choices. Or maybe that is what classes of people are. Different strata that are subscribed to, fallen into, or climbed into by the various inahbitants thereof.

Edited February 4, 2007 by Smilodon

[kmart]

The class thing eludes me completely. Seems like it is usually Brits that talk about class and you will usually not find Yanks talking about this....I guess the main reason is obvious.

Chownah

Its said that if three Brits washed up on a desert island, the first thing they'd do is set up a class system.

I cannot stand the PC brigade. They want everything to fit into their quaint liberal agenda and have hijacked the truth in doing so.

Its quite ironic that some of these people post in a Thai-based forum, or even live in Thailand; one of the world's most politically incorrect countries. They must be having a great time.

[jamman]

IMO it makes sense to speak in terms of class, race, religion, or gender when conducting comparative research that might benefit a particular group.

Using class or gender in order to discriminate against a person is to buy into a divisive "us" and "them" worldview, a conflict mentality. I think we all do this because we've been taught to think and speak in terms of opposites rather than seeing difference as complementary, as "two faces of the same coin".

Jamman, you use "class" as a knife to cut the world into acceptable and unacceptable people (those who don't meet your criteria of initiative or "classiness"). Why is it that we human beings cannot simply accept that everyone is unique and valuable as a fellow inhabitant of the planet regardless of their achievements/failures/strengths/weaknesses/race/gender/class etc?

I think it makes to speak in terms of class whenever that notion sheds extra light and valuable insight than could otherwise be shown. It doesn't have to be to make someone or some group look good. Truth is not always pretty, but if it is truth, then it is better seen than ignored.

You say I use the term class to cut the world into acceptable and unacceptable, but the facts speak otherwise. The fact is that I lived in a Phillipine slum and loved and accepted my ghetto girl. You can't love someone properly through tinted glasses. I saw her clearly as I could, and loved her. She was deeply affected by her environment - her class, if you will. And I loved her deeply.

The proof is in what I do - I have loved and continue to love all sorts of people. Describing people in terms of class is not a matter of accepting and rejecting - it is a matter of using tools of classification to better understand. If YOU can't understand that, that is a fault of YOUR classification system, not mine.

I think we need to first see what is, as clearly as possible. Only then can we decide what to do with what we see. We can't decide under what circumstances we should look.

And when it comes to choosing a mate, why not use every possible means to see him or her as clearly as possible? It's a very big choice.

Edited February 4, 2007 by jamman

[sceadugenga]

I guess that in the heirarchy of human division, there are, in (varying) order of rigidity, (or difficulty to bust out, rise above, or abandon):

Castes

Classes

Countries

Socioeconomic groups

Friends

Acquaintances

Communities

When a bunch of willfully ignorant, drunkard bigots got together, that would be regarded, by most, to be low class. It isn't so much class, in the British tradition, but a background or tendency that was not negated by any different choices. Or maybe that is what classes of people are. Different strata that are subscribed to, fallen into, or climbed into by the various inahbitants thereof.

Family?

[jamman]

I guess that in the heirarchy of human division, there are, in (varying) order of rigidity, (or difficulty to bust out, rise above, or abandon):

Castes

Classes

Countries

Socioeconomic groups

Friends

Acquaintances

Communities

When a bunch of willfully ignorant, drunkard bigots got together, that would be regarded, by most, to be low class. It isn't so much class, in the British tradition, but a background or tendency that was not negated by any different choices. Or maybe that is what classes of people are. Different strata that are subscribed to, fallen into, or climbed into by the various inahbitants thereof.

That's very articulate and insightful, I think.

That's what I noticed in the Philippines. There are groups of people that teach each other values, and as a group they cohere. In my ex girlfriends family compound, one teenager was dating a young prostitute, who just came back from her work in Japan. Children of one family might go hungry for lack of rice, while the father spent some money on recreational drugs. Her mother gambled away much of the large family inheritence, and would continue to gamble whatever she could get her hands on - even utility money. Her Mom married her dad at age 13, and they had 10 kids. The families of these children also were very large. Large families even when there is no money for food. One brother hadn't worked in over 10 years, and had some distant children to a mother who needed help. Infidelity everywhere. And many sorts of incest, even her dad was was caught fiddling his grandkids, as he had done with some of his children. Not always money for school, and one parent getting into a row with his daughter, trying to discourage her from going to school, even when someone else was paying for it. Jealous, I suppose. I had money and my cell phone stolen from our room there from by a cousin. And that is just all in one family compound. In the surrounding community there is prostitution everywhere, starting as young as age 11. There are tribes of people re-enforcing each other's values. Sometimes people will get new values elsewhere - through the church, or through books, a boyfriend, what have you. But these values that we suck up in our most formative years can go deep.

Doesn't the Catholic church say something like give me a boy at 4 and I will have him for life? Regardless of value systems, some of the traumas, and even nutritional deficiencies, that happen in these environments can be life long. The brain goes through developmental stages, only if the right circumstances are present. Without emotional and intellectual encouragement, people can become stunted. Adult children, in some respects.

So yes, people tend to group around those with similar values, and then children born into groups with certain values tend to inherit them, just as some people inherit their parents religion.

Edited February 4, 2007 by jamman

[Smilodon]

Family?

Yeah, forgot that one.

[qwertz]

I guess that in the heirarchy of human division, there are, in (varying) order of rigidity, (or difficulty to bust out, rise above, or abandon):

Castes

Classes

Countries

Socioeconomic groups

Friends

Acquaintances

Communities

When a bunch of willfully ignorant, drunkard bigots got together, that would be regarded, by most, to be low class. It isn't so much class, in the British tradition, but a background or tendency that was not negated by any different choices. Or maybe that is what classes of people are. Different strata that are subscribed to, fallen into, or climbed into by the various inahbitants thereof.

Handsome is as handsome does, JM.

[jbsears]

The old post that the OP mentions was one of the best posts I have seen in a long time. I was really looking forward to reading peoples responses on dating down for good looks or dating similar and sacrificing on the looks. It was a topic that is truly relevant to Thailand. I was shocked when I saw it was closed. There was nothing wrong with it at all.

The OP should open up his old thread again.

[dog412]

intelligence is a difficult trait to observe.

[dumspero]

Dating "down" for looks? That and other comments point to (but aren't necessarily examples of) another form of classism--that those with fancy educations are better than others.

In my view, all people have equal worth as humans--every beating heart is equal. And it's funny that in the US, at least, although I suspect it's true in many places, people pride themselves on not being racist and yet they can be just plain uncomfortable with uneducated people of any background.

I remember how surprised my Thai wife and I were that the fancy firm I clerked for in San Francisco was far less welcoming to her than the firm where I worked in Houston. True, that showed our own form of prejudice, but it was also an example of how highly educated Americans can be race-blind but still just as classist as the older societies they tend to view with contempt. Ok for them to have Asian blood, but not so ok to have an accent, have traditional Thai views, etc.

[jamman]

Dating "down" for looks? That and other comments point to (but aren't necessarily examples of) another form of classism--that those with fancy educations are better than others.

In my view, all people have equal worth as humans--every beating heart is equal. And it's funny that in the US, at least, although I suspect it's true in many places, people pride themselves on not being racist and yet they can be just plain uncomfortable with uneducated people of any background.

I remember how surprised my Thai wife and I were that the fancy firm I clerked for in San Francisco was far less welcoming to her than the firm where I worked in Houston. True, that showed our own form of prejudice, but it was also an example of how highly educated Americans can be race-blind but still just as classist as the older societies they tend to view with contempt. Ok for them to have Asian blood, but not so ok to have an accent, have traditional Thai views, etc.

Saying that people have equal worth is very different than saying that people are equal. Obviously we are all quite different.

The level of education may not be important for you as a quality in a mate. But certainly you must have some sort of value system - you wouldn't date or marry just anyone, would you?

If you have any sense of one person being more attrative than another, then your notion of all people being equal has no bearing at all on the notion of class. People have differences, and we have value systems that rank people in importance or attractiveness to us. Class is just one of many ways to rank people.

I suspect that you don't much like antisocial rude brutes. Some people give a name to antisocial rude brutes - some call them low class. I'm not sure that people generally equate having little education with being low class. I think there is a lot more to it, in most people's minds, than that.

To speak further about your idea that all human animals with beating hearts are equal, I wrote a commentary on the author Tom Robbins' notion that not all Homo Sapiens are human. It can be seen on my blog here: http://xsplat.wordpress.com/2003/11/02/not...iens-are-human/

Edited February 7, 2007 by jamman

[jamman]

The old post that the OP mentions was one of the best posts I have seen in a long time. I was really looking forward to reading peoples responses on dating down for good looks or dating similar and sacrificing on the looks. It was a topic that is truly relevant to Thailand. I was shocked when I saw it was closed. There was nothing wrong with it at all.

The OP should open up his old thread again.

Thanks.

I'm wary of what the mods would do if I re-opened it, or even if I were to paste it here. But here is a link to it, if anyone else is interested in talking about what is most valuable to them in a relationship, and how most of us usually have to give up one thing in order to get another. There just aren't that many perfect women out there - certainly not enough to go around for everyone who is looking for one. I would give up quite a lot for youth and beauty and intense sexual chemistry, personally, and I'm only just now starting to set upper limits on how much to give up.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=104411

Edited February 7, 2007 by jamman