UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[vogie]

So again PM May has lied through her front teeth, she clearly stated that we would be leaving the SM and the CU, before all we had to do was trigger A50 to leave, with this proposal we need the permission of the EU to leave. We are more tied in to the EU than ever.

 

 

[SheungWan]

58 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

You couldn't make this stuff up.

You could.

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Stupooey said:

Even the most ardent Leavers admit there would be pain and suffering in the short term after Brexit....

I don't remember that being written on the side of the Battle Bus.

[SheungWan]

54 minutes ago, vogie said:

So again PM May has lied through her front teeth, ......

Forum Hard Brexiteers enjoying their breakfast this morning I see.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Forum Hard Brexiteers enjoying their breakfast this morning I see.

Yes I am having boiled eggs and instead of bread soldiers I have made toasted May, just biting her head off at the moment. ????

[rixalex]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win

 

Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month.

The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

Nigel Farage speaks for you?

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, rixalex said:

Nigel Farage speaks for you?

Do you want to rethink that question?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

 

Sorry, but I have to counter these absurdities and expose them for what they are -

 

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

resources spent on entertaining the spoiled brat and her mid-life crisis could as well have been spent on important matters

Typically inane, spiteful vitriol, made from a point of total ignorance as to the causes / voter's grievances - as per bloody usual. If a vote for the future  independence of a country isn't important, then what is? Target2 or CAP? Hah! Just the kind of remark that is to be expected from an EU acolyte and citizen of one of their vassal states, I guess. 

 

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

that’s what the Brexiteers wanted: closed borders

They're simply called borders, there is no 'closed' connotation anywhere other than in your and a worrying amount of other's addled minds. The UK isn't proposing to become Bhutan or North Korea. Legal immigration and import is and always will be important and desired, despite certain wild assumptions to the contrary.

Common sense and experience dictates its a necessity to have immigration / customs checkpoints, but having a properly manned and independently controlled border is of course crucial - it's a fundamental part of being sovereign, after all. Borders are what define a country's geography, remit and jurisdiction, that should be a simple and obvious enough concept to wrap your head around, but it clearly isn't for some.

 

Nowhere else in the world does the absurd framework of the single-market/free movement of people coupling that the EU imposes on its increasingly despairing member states, exist. NOWHERE! I wonder why that is? If you want to study, work, trade or retire in a foreign European country then simply apply for the relevant visa as you would anywhere else in the world AND as was the case and happened daily and without issue for many, many years before Maastricht.

 

 

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Ireland is a member state and the club cares about its members

A misapprehension so severe it is hardly worth arguing against, as the view of the person who espoused it must surely be immuatbly entrenched.

 

To put it concisely -

I offer some fine examples of why this point is so laughably ludicrous: 

 

Italy - https://euobserver.com/economic/114264 . Berlusconi raises concerns over Italy's continued membership of the Eurozone - replaced by M.Monti - ex G.Sachs advisor and EU Commissioner. No elections held, totally undemocratic 'appointment' by the EU commission.

No real growth in the Italian economy since the adoption of the Euro 20 years ago. 40% youth unemployment in 2017 as well as serious and growing immigration issues , see: Lampedusa for more info (though I'm sure you won't).

 

CAN YOU FEEL THE LOVE YET?

 

Greece - 62% - 38% vote for independence ignored by the EU. An economy destroyed by the ECB/EU and an oft cited 'bail out' of the nation is proffered by EU sycophants. False pretense as usual - bailed out: banks - yes, national economy / taxpayer - very much no. See: Sovereign debt vs Federalised debt. 'Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece averaged 35.46 percent from 1998 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 60.30 percent in February of 2013 and a record low of 20 percent in May of 2008.' Before the Eurozone crisis hit ????

 

'Every rule in the book has been set aside in the EU-ECB-IMF troika’s cowardly decision to heap more loans onto an already insolvent nation. Perhaps someone should have checked what was in his water glass when Mario Centeno, president of the eurozone group of finance ministers, said back in June: ‘With all these measures we can safely say that Greek debt is sustainable going forward.’  https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/a-greek-tragedy-how-the-eu-is-destroying-a-country/

 

Ireland - near identical story to Greece. https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/42-of-europes-banking-crisis-paid-by-ireland-219703.html 

Youth unemployment running at 14% (2018) down from a catastrophic 31% in 2011/12 - prompting a mass emigration of younger Irish nationals to seek work abroad.

 

FEEL THE LOVE!!!

 

I only pray the UK can remove itself from this mess - as definitively as possible - as soon as possible.

Seems, so far this morning, like a betrayal of sorts is taking place. It could be a numbers game now, until anyone with the balls to challenge May can be backed in parliament by a large enough proportion of the party then this is the best we have, but perhaps keeping the momentum toward a proper exit alive is the best we can hope for until the numbers are on the side of someone who can run against May and deliver an actual Brexit - or she is deposed by the party / a GE is called. Whether this current agreement will even get through Parliament is another question. Turbulent times ahead IMHO. ???? 

 

And now, I'll get down from my soapbox. ????

 

 

 

 

 

[whatsupdoc]

20 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

CAN YOU FEEL THE LOVE YET?

And of the countries you mention, how many want to leave the EU? Correct, not a single one.

[tebee]

16 hours ago, Grouse said:

Hey Tebee! Where you bin man?

 

The deck chairs are nicely arranged though!

Traveling - to ubon, then Bangkok then Paris now back in my my little bit of rural Brittany.

 

Need to sort out some paperwork pre-brexit (if it happens!) and fix some problems at one of my tenanted houses.

 

Relying  on the phone for internet though - I have to pay for a full year if I turn fixed line back on 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

26 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

And of the countries you mention, how many want to leave the EU? Correct, not a single one.

Well considering BOTH Ireland and Greece voted to leave via referenda but were not afforded that right, and that Italy looks increasingly likely to leave the Eurozone, (if allowed) I'd say your question is more than a little redundant. A referendum in Italy in the next year or two would be very interesting to see. I wouldn't mind betting that there would be a repeat of the UK ref. in 2016, with a similarly narrow margin FOR LEAVING. If the stagnant economy and fractured political class / system continues to descend along it's current trajectory I think it will spell the end of Italian membership - of the Eurozone at the very least - which would cause untold calamities and would mean the end of the Euro, (long overdue) which would in turn be the fatal blow to the EU, so bring it on I say!

Edited November 15, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[bristolboy]

25 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Sorry, but I have to counter these absurdities and expose them for what they are -

 

Typically inane, spiteful vitriol, made from a point of total ignorance as to the causes / voter's grievances - as per bloody usual. If a vote for the future  independence of a country isn't important, then what is? Target2 or CAP? Hah! Just the kind of remark that is to be expected from an EU acolyte and citizen of one of their vassal states, I guess. 

 

They're simply called borders, there is no 'closed' connotation anywhere other than in your and a worrying amount of other's addled minds. The UK isn't proposing to become Bhutan or North Korea. Legal immigration and import is and always will be important and desired, despite certain wild assumptions to the contrary.

Common sense and experience dictates its a necessity to have immigration / customs checkpoints, but having a properly manned and independently controlled border is of course crucial - it's a fundamental part of being sovereign, after all. Borders are what define a country's geography, remit and jurisdiction, that should be a simple and obvious enough concept to wrap your head around, but it clearly isn't for some.

 

Nowhere else in the world does the absurd framework of the single-market/free movement of people coupling that the EU imposes on its increasingly despairing member states, exist. NOWHERE! I wonder why that is? If you want to study, work, trade or retire in a foreign European country then simply apply for the relevant visa as you would anywhere else in the world AND as was the case and happened daily and without issue for many, many years before Maastricht.

 

 

A misapprehension so severe it is hardly worth arguing against, as the view of the person who espoused it must surely be immuatbly entrenched.

 

To put it concisely -

I offer some fine examples of why this point is so laughably ludicrous: 

 

Italy - https://euobserver.com/economic/114264 . Berlusconi raises concerns over Italy's continued membership of the Eurozone - replaced by M.Monti - ex G.Sachs advisor and EU Commissioner. No elections held, totally undemocratic 'appointment' by the EU commission.

No real growth in the Italian economy since the adoption of the Euro 20 years ago. 40% youth unemployment in 2017 as well as serious and growing immigration issues , see: Lampedusa for more info (though I'm sure you won't).

 

CAN YOU FEEL THE LOVE YET?

 

Greece - 62% - 38% vote for independence ignored by the EU. An economy destroyed by the ECB/EU and an oft cited 'bail out' of the nation is proffered by EU sycophants. False pretense as usual - bailed out: banks - yes, national economy / taxpayer - very much no. See: Sovereign debt vs Federalised debt. 'Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece averaged 35.46 percent from 1998 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 60.30 percent in February of 2013 and a record low of 20 percent in May of 2008.' Before the Eurozone crisis hit ????

 

'Every rule in the book has been set aside in the EU-ECB-IMF troika’s cowardly decision to heap more loans onto an already insolvent nation. Perhaps someone should have checked what was in his water glass when Mario Centeno, president of the eurozone group of finance ministers, said back in June: ‘With all these measures we can safely say that Greek debt is sustainable going forward.’  https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/a-greek-tragedy-how-the-eu-is-destroying-a-country/

 

Ireland - near identical story to Greece. https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/42-of-europes-banking-crisis-paid-by-ireland-219703.html 

Youth unemployment running at 14% (2018) down from a catastrophic 31% in 2011/12 - prompting a mass emigration of younger Irish nationals to seek work abroad.

 

FEEL THE LOVE!!!

 

I only pray the UK can remove itself from this mess - as definitively as possible - as soon as possible.

Seems, so far this morning, like a betrayal of sorts is taking place. It could be a numbers game now, until anyone with the balls to challenge May can be backed in parliament by a large enough proportion of the party then this is the best we have, but perhaps keeping the momentum toward a proper exit alive is the best we can hope for until the numbers are on the side of someone who can run against May and deliver an actual Brexit - or she is deposed by the party / a GE is called. Whether this current agreement will even get through Parliament is another question. Turbulent times ahead IMHO. ???? 

 

And now, I'll get down from my soapbox. ????

 

 

 

 

 

Yes those 3 nations were screwed over because they are members of the Eurozone. What has that got to do with the UK's membership in the EU?

Also, Greeks did not vote 62-38 percent for independence. That's simply false. They did vote to reject the terms the EU imposed on them. But in fact, in subsequent elections. leaving the Eurozone or the EU was, to put it mildly, not a popular option..

[malagateddy]

 
Sorry, but I have to counter these absurdities and expose them for what they are -
 

resources spent on entertaining the spoiled brat and her mid-life crisis could as well have been spent on important matters

Typically inane, spiteful vitriol, made from a point of total ignorance as to the causes / voter's grievances - as per bloody usual. If a vote for the future  independence of a country isn't important, then what is? Target2 or CAP? Hah! Just the kind of remark that is to be expected from an EU acolyte and citizen of one of their vassal states, I guess. 
 
A misapprehension so severe it is hardly worth arguing against, as the view of the person who espoused it must surely be immuatbly entrenched.
 
To put it concisely -
I offer some fine examples of why this point is so laughably ludicrous: 
 
Italy - https://euobserver.com/economic/114264 . Berlusconi raises concerns over Italy's continued membership of the Eurozone - replaced by M.Monti - ex G.Sachs advisor and EU Commissioner. No elections held, totally undemocratic 'appointment' by the EU commission.
No real growth in the Italian economy since the adoption of the Euro 20 years ago. 40% youth unemployment in 2017 as well as serious and growing immigration issues , see: Lampedusa for more info (though I'm sure you won't).
 
CAN YOU FEEL THE LOVE YET?
 
Greece - 62% - 38% vote for independence ignored by the EU. An economy destroyed by the ECB/EU and an oft cited 'bail out' of the nation is proffered by EU sycophants. False pretense as usual - bailed out: banks - yes, national economy / taxpayer - very much no. See: Sovereign debt vs Federalised debt. 'Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece averaged 35.46 percent from 1998 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 60.30 percent in February of 2013 and a record low of 20 percent in May of 2008.' Before the Eurozone crisis hit [emoji6]
 
'Every rule in the book has been set aside in the EU-ECB-IMF troika’s cowardly decision to heap more loans onto an already insolvent nation. Perhaps someone should have checked what was in his water glass when Mario Centeno, president of the eurozone group of finance ministers, said back in June: ‘With all these measures we can safely say that Greek debt is sustainable going forward.’  https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/a-greek-tragedy-how-the-eu-is-destroying-a-country/
 
Ireland - near identical story to Greece. https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/42-of-europes-banking-crisis-paid-by-ireland-219703.html 
Youth unemployment running at 14% (2018) down from a catastrophic 31% in 2011/12 - prompting a mass emigration of younger Irish nationals to seek work abroad.
 
FEEL THE LOVE!!!

 
I only pray the UK can remove itself from this mess - as definitively as possible - as soon as possible.
Seems, so far this morning, like a betrayal of sorts is taking place. It could be a numbers game now, until anyone with the balls to challenge May can be backed in parliament by a large enough proportion of the party then this is the best we have, but perhaps keeping the momentum toward a proper exit alive is the best we can hope for until the numbers are on the side of someone who can run against May and deliver an actual Brexit - or she is deposed by the party / a GE is called. Whether this current agreement will even get through Parliament is another question. Turbulent times ahead IMHO. [emoji21] 
 
And now, I'll get down from my soapbox. [emoji846]
 
 
 
 
 
An excellent post Sir..just BRILLIANT [emoji6]

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

28 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Typically inane, spiteful vitriol, made from a point of total ignorance as to the causes / voter's grievances - as per bloody usual. If a vote for the future  independence of a country isn't important, then what is? Target2 or CAP? Hah! Just the kind of remark that is to be expected from an EU acolyte and citizen of one of their vassal states, I guess. 
 
A misapprehension so severe it is hardly worth arguing against, as the view of the person who espoused it must surely be immuatbly entrenched.
 
To put it concisely -
I offer some fine examples of why this point is so laughably ludicrous: 
 
Italy - https://euobserver.com/economic/114264 . Berlusconi raises concerns over Italy's continued membership of the Eurozone - replaced by M.Monti - ex G.Sachs advisor and EU Commissioner. No elections held, totally undemocratic 'appointment' by the EU commission.
No real growth in the Italian economy since the adoption of the Euro 20 years ago. 40% youth unemployment in 2017 as well as serious and growing immigration issues , see: Lampedusa for more info (though I'm sure you won't).
 
CAN YOU FEEL THE LOVE YET?
 
Greece - 62% - 38% vote for independence ignored by the EU. An economy destroyed by the ECB/EU and an oft cited 'bail out' of the nation is proffered by EU sycophants. False pretense as usual - bailed out: banks - yes, national economy / taxpayer - very much no. See: Sovereign debt vs Federalised debt. 'Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece averaged 35.46 percent from 1998 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 60.30 percent in February of 2013 and a record low of 20 percent in May of 2008.' Before the Eurozone crisis hit 
 
'Every rule in the book has been set aside in the EU-ECB-IMF troika’s cowardly decision to heap more loans onto an already insolvent nation. Perhaps someone should have checked what was in his water glass when Mario Centeno, president of the eurozone group of finance ministers, said back in June: ‘With all these measures we can safely say that Greek debt is sustainable going forward.’  https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/a-greek-tragedy-how-the-eu-is-destroying-a-country/
 
Ireland - near identical story to Greece. https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/42-of-europes-banking-crisis-paid-by-ireland-219703.html 
Youth unemployment running at 14% (2018) down from a catastrophic 31% in 2011/12 - prompting a mass emigration of younger Irish nationals to seek work abroad.
 
FEEL THE LOVE!!!

 
I only pray the UK can remove itself from this mess - as definitively as possible - as soon as possible.
Seems, so far this morning, like a betrayal of sorts is taking place. It could be a numbers game now, until anyone with the balls to challenge May can be backed in parliament by a large enough proportion of the party then this is the best we have, but perhaps keeping the momentum toward a proper exit alive is the best we can hope for until the numbers are on the side of someone who can run against May and deliver an actual Brexit - or she is deposed by the party / a GE is called. Whether this current agreement will even get through Parliament is another question. Turbulent times ahead IMHO.  
 
And now, I'll get down from my soapbox.
 
 
 
 
 
An excellent post Sir..just BRILLIANT

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

Thank you for the compliment! Appreciated. ????

[melvinmelvin]

42 minutes ago, tebee said:

Traveling - to ubon, then Bangkok then Paris now back in my my little bit of rural Brittany.

 

Need to sort out some paperwork pre-brexit (if it happens!) and fix some problems at one of my tenanted houses.

 

Relying  on the phone for internet though - I have to pay for a full year if I turn fixed line back on 

 

and assumably enjoying today's wine release

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

28 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Typically inane, spiteful vitriol, made from a point of total ignorance as to the causes / voter's grievances - as per bloody usual. If a vote for the future  independence of a country isn't important, then what is? Target2 or CAP? Hah! Just the kind of remark that is to be expected from an EU acolyte and citizen of one of their vassal states, I guess. 
 
A misapprehension so severe it is hardly worth arguing against, as the view of the person who espoused it must surely be immuatbly entrenched.
 
To put it concisely -
I offer some fine examples of why this point is so laughably ludicrous: 
 
Italy - https://euobserver.com/economic/114264 . Berlusconi raises concerns over Italy's continued membership of the Eurozone - replaced by M.Monti - ex G.Sachs advisor and EU Commissioner. No elections held, totally undemocratic 'appointment' by the EU commission.
No real growth in the Italian economy since the adoption of the Euro 20 years ago. 40% youth unemployment in 2017 as well as serious and growing immigration issues , see: Lampedusa for more info (though I'm sure you won't).
 
CAN YOU FEEL THE LOVE YET?
 
Greece - 62% - 38% vote for independence ignored by the EU. An economy destroyed by the ECB/EU and an oft cited 'bail out' of the nation is proffered by EU sycophants. False pretense as usual - bailed out: banks - yes, national economy / taxpayer - very much no. See: Sovereign debt vs Federalised debt. 'Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece averaged 35.46 percent from 1998 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 60.30 percent in February of 2013 and a record low of 20 percent in May of 2008.' Before the Eurozone crisis hit 
 
'Every rule in the book has been set aside in the EU-ECB-IMF troika’s cowardly decision to heap more loans onto an already insolvent nation. Perhaps someone should have checked what was in his water glass when Mario Centeno, president of the eurozone group of finance ministers, said back in June: ‘With all these measures we can safely say that Greek debt is sustainable going forward.’  https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/a-greek-tragedy-how-the-eu-is-destroying-a-country/
 
Ireland - near identical story to Greece. https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/42-of-europes-banking-crisis-paid-by-ireland-219703.html 
Youth unemployment running at 14% (2018) down from a catastrophic 31% in 2011/12 - prompting a mass emigration of younger Irish nationals to seek work abroad.
 
FEEL THE LOVE!!!

 
I only pray the UK can remove itself from this mess - as definitively as possible - as soon as possible.
Seems, so far this morning, like a betrayal of sorts is taking place. It could be a numbers game now, until anyone with the balls to challenge May can be backed in parliament by a large enough proportion of the party then this is the best we have, but perhaps keeping the momentum toward a proper exit alive is the best we can hope for until the numbers are on the side of someone who can run against May and deliver an actual Brexit - or she is deposed by the party / a GE is called. Whether this current agreement will even get through Parliament is another question. Turbulent times ahead IMHO.  
 
And now, I'll get down from my soapbox.
 
 
 
 
 
An excellent post Sir..just BRILLIANT

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

Thank you for the compliment! Appreciated. ????

[melvinmelvin]

42 minutes ago, tebee said:

Traveling - to ubon, then Bangkok then Paris now back in my my little bit of rural Brittany.

 

Need to sort out some paperwork pre-brexit (if it happens!) and fix some problems at one of my tenanted houses.

 

Relying  on the phone for internet though - I have to pay for a full year if I turn fixed line back on 

 

and assumably enjoying today's wine release

 

[whatsupdoc]

5 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Thank you for the compliment! Appreciated. ????

Any post on this forum whether it contains falsehoods, total nonsense, blatant lies or not, as long as it is anti-EU there will be some hard Brexiteers who will give you a compliment for it.....

[melvinmelvin]

42 minutes ago, tebee said:

Traveling - to ubon, then Bangkok then Paris now back in my my little bit of rural Brittany.

 

Need to sort out some paperwork pre-brexit (if it happens!) and fix some problems at one of my tenanted houses.

 

Relying  on the phone for internet though - I have to pay for a full year if I turn fixed line back on 

 

and assumably enjoying today's wine release

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

DUPLICATION OF EARLIER POST.

Edited November 15, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Yes those 3 nations were screwed over because they are members of the Eurozone. What has that got to do with the UK's membership in the EU?

Also, Greeks did not vote 62-38 percent for independence. That's simply false. They did vote to reject the terms the EU imposed on them. But in fact, in subsequent elections. leaving the Eurozone or the EU was, to put it mildly, not a popular option..

 

'What has that got to do with the UK's membership in the EU?'. 

 

Well...besides the fact that remaining part of such an organisation that has precipitated such misery on the peoples that it supposedly 'cares for' would be an amoral and irresponsible thing to do, you seem to be overlooking the obvious fact that - as a member of the EEA/EU we would, as a nation, also be liable for a portion of the debt and very negatively effected by the disastrous consequences of defaulting economies bringing about the breakdown of the Eurozone, which many now agree, is an inevitability. Hence removing ourselves post-haste is imperative. If you want to argue with this then feel free, but provide evidence to counter it, please.

 

'As a result of the referendum, the bailout conditions were rejected by a majority of over 61% to 39% approving, with the "No" vote winning in all of Greece's regions. The referendum results also forced the immediate resignation of New Democracy leader Antonis Samaras as party president because of the perceived negative result of the "Yes" choice, to which the conservative party and Samaras had committed themselves'. 

 

'There has been substantial disagreement between campaigns on the implications of the referendum, and the public has interpreted it in a variety of ways. Tsipras has argued that a "No" vote would represent a rejection of the austerity terms demanded by the creditors, and strengthen the Greek negotiating position. Tsipras declared "On Sunday, we are not simply deciding to remain in Europe -- we are deciding to live with dignity in Europe". Tsipras has repeatedly rejected Greek and international warnings that a "No" vote would be perceived by Greek's main creditors as a "No" to reforms in Greece, and a "No" to remaining in the Eurozone. Advocates of a "Yes" vote, among them a grass-root movement entitled Menoume Europi (Stay in Europe) have cast the referendum as a decision on Greece remaining in the eurozone, and perhaps even the European Union' 

 

Perception is everything. Effectively the NO vote WAS at the time a vote FOR unilateral governance from Athens and a rejection of Brussels imposing draconian austerity measures and precipitating economic ruin on the Greek people, rather than allowing the insolvent institutions - fed fat by the ECB/IMF, to default. It was a real protest vote and polls conducted at the time showed the animosity felt by the Greek populous towards the EC, ECB, IMF and German financial institutions / politicians in particular. Their vote was one that was not taken into account by the EU as we have seen. International institutions like the IMF being involved at such a high level and superseding the power of elected governments within Greece is again - to the shame and discredit of the EU / IMF. Having humbled Greece fiscally and economically to such an extent, they have little choice to remain a vassal state or 'debt colony' at this point anyway. They're on the hook for billions after all!

 

I would like to see a national vote / gallop poll of some kind re: public opinion on both a) leaving the Eurozone and b) exiting the EU altogether. It would be very interesting to see the results. I'm not saying, by the way, that there would be a majority for leaving the EU, but for leaving the Eurozone - I think it would surprise you and might delight certain parties. ????

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/a-greek-tragedy-how-the-eu-is-destroying-a-country/ - very worth reading, re: the whole debacle.

 

'Even the IMF is not prepared to put its reputation behind the most recent EU announcements, having lost the argument against the EU’s unrealistic demands that Greece must run a budget surplus of 3.5 per cent of GDP until 2022 and 2 per cent thereafter' - 'Perhaps that’s because the Greeks have grown accustomed to inhuman treatment at the hands of European governments. Four times in the last 200 years Greece has experienced national bankruptcy: in 1833, 1898, 1912, and most recently and most catastrophically in 2009. On each occasion, a different set of European powers has prioritised the interests of their bankers (whose over-optimistic lending caused the problems in the first place).'

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Any post on this forum whether it contains falsehoods, total nonsense, blatant lies or not, as long as it is anti-EU there will be some hard Brexiteers who will give you a compliment for it.....

Aaw. Having an attack of the green eyed monster? ????

 

If you think what I have written is any of the above then PROVE IT! Debate it. You can't and I'm sure you won't even attempt to - because it is grounded in facts - a most alien concept to the Remoaner crowd on here. 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

DUPLICATION OF EARLIER POST. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[whatsupdoc]

3 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Aaw. Having an attack of the green eyed monster? ????

 

If you think what I have written is any of the above then PROVE IT! Debate it. You can't and I'm sure you won't even attempt to - because it is grounded in facts - a most alien concept to the Remoaner crowd on here. 

Monti was installed by the Italian president, not the EU commission. As another poster already pointed out, your claim about the greek 'independence' vote is a falsehood. The problems of Greek (and Italian) economies were mainly caused by mismanagement of national governments, not the EU. How is the unemployment in Ireland related to EU policies? Or has the situation improved because of them? The EU is not to blame for African immigrants that want to reach Lampedusa. If you have a solution to this problem, please enlighten us.

Sorry, but very few brexiteers here care about facts. it is however common to blame the EU for everything and facts are usually put away as 'project fear'.

Must be bad for the lot of you if there is a hard Brexit after all. Who are you going to blame then?

[transam]

8 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Monti was installed by the Italian president, not the EU commission. As another poster already pointed out, your claim about the greek 'independence' vote is a falsehood. The problems of Greek (and Italian) economies were mainly caused by mismanagement of national governments, not the EU. How is the unemployment in Ireland related to EU policies? Or has the situation improved because of them? The EU is not to blame for African immigrants that want to reach Lampedusa. If you have a solution to this problem, please enlighten us.

Sorry, but very few brexiteers here care about facts. it is however common to blame the EU for everything and facts are usually put away as 'project fear'.

Must be bad for the lot of you if there is a hard Brexit after all. Who are you going to blame then?

Those who did not setup a get out clause in the beginning....?????

[bristolboy]

8 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

'What has that got to do with the UK's membership in the EU?'. 

 

Well...besides the fact that remaining part of such an organisation that has precipitated such misery on the peoples that it supposedly 'cares for' would be an amoral and irresponsible thing to do, you seem to be overlooking the obvious fact that - as a member of the EEA/EU we would, as a nation, also be liable for a portion of the debt and very negatively effected by the disastrous consequences of defaulting economies bringing about the breakdown of the Eurozone, which many now agree, is an inevitability. Hence removing ourselves post-haste is imperative. If you want to argue with this then feel free, but provide evidence to counter it, please.

 

'As a result of the referendum, the bailout conditions were rejected by a majority of over 61% to 39% approving, with the "No" vote winning in all of Greece's regions. The referendum results also forced the immediate resignation of New Democracy leader Antonis Samaras as party president because of the perceived negative result of the "Yes" choice, to which the conservative party and Samaras had committed themselves'. 

 

'There has been substantial disagreement between campaigns on the implications of the referendum, and the public has interpreted it in a variety of ways. Tsipras has argued that a "No" vote would represent a rejection of the austerity terms demanded by the creditors, and strengthen the Greek negotiating position. Tsipras declared "On Sunday, we are not simply deciding to remain in Europe -- we are deciding to live with dignity in Europe". Tsipras has repeatedly rejected Greek and international warnings that a "No" vote would be perceived by Greek's main creditors as a "No" to reforms in Greece, and a "No" to remaining in the Eurozone. Advocates of a "Yes" vote, among them a grass-root movement entitled Menoume Europi (Stay in Europe) have cast the referendum as a decision on Greece remaining in the eurozone, and perhaps even the European Union' 

 

Perception is everything. Effectively the NO vote WAS at the time a vote FOR unilateral governance from Athens and a rejection of Brussels imposing draconian austerity measures and precipitating economic ruin on the Greek people, rather than allowing the insolvent institutions - fed fat by the ECB/IMF, to default. It was a real protest vote and polls conducted at the time showed the animosity felt by the Greek populous towards the EC, ECB, IMF and German financial institutions / politicians in particular. Their vote was one that was not taken into account by the EU as we have seen. International institutions like the IMF being involved at such a high level and superseding the power of elected governments within Greece is again - to the shame and discredit of the EU / IMF. Having humbled Greece fiscally and economically to such an extent, they have little choice to remain a vassal state or 'debt colony' at this point anyway. They're on the hook for billions after all!

 

I would like to see a national vote / gallop poll of some kind re: public opinion on both a) leaving the Eurozone and b) exiting the EU altogether. It would be very interesting to see the results. I'm not saying, by the way, that there would be a majority for leaving the EU, but for leaving the Eurozone - I think it would surprise you and might delight certain parties. ????

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/a-greek-tragedy-how-the-eu-is-destroying-a-country/ - very worth reading, re: the whole debacle.

 

'Even the IMF is not prepared to put its reputation behind the most recent EU announcements, having lost the argument against the EU’s unrealistic demands that Greece must run a budget surplus of 3.5 per cent of GDP until 2022 and 2 per cent thereafter' - 'Perhaps that’s because the Greeks have grown accustomed to inhuman treatment at the hands of European governments. Four times in the last 200 years Greece has experienced national bankruptcy: in 1833, 1898, 1912, and most recently and most catastrophically in 2009. On each occasion, a different set of European powers has prioritised the interests of their bankers (whose over-optimistic lending caused the problems in the first place).'

 

No, the UK would not be partly responsible for any such debt incurred the EU. That was settled during the last financial collapse. The EU briefly tried it on, the UK said no, and that was that. There was no mechanism the EU could impose to afflict the UK. However, the UK would still be responsible for a share of Greece's debts incurred through the IMF. But if the issue is that important to you, maybe you should support the UK exiting from the IMF as well.

 

And as for the moral concern, you might want to look at how the UK tried to muscle Iceland into being responsible for the losses incurred by UK citizens with accounts in Icelandic banks. Just as Britain told the EU to bugger off, so did Iceland to the UK.

And if you would like to see polls about public support in various nations for leaving the Eurozone, or leaving the EU all you have to do is use something called Google. The results of your search won't please you. You could start with Italy.

 

[transam]

8 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Monti was installed by the Italian president, not the EU commission. As another poster already pointed out, your claim about the greek 'independence' vote is a falsehood. The problems of Greek (and Italian) economies were mainly caused by mismanagement of national governments, not the EU. How is the unemployment in Ireland related to EU policies? Or has the situation improved because of them? The EU is not to blame for African immigrants that want to reach Lampedusa. If you have a solution to this problem, please enlighten us.

Sorry, but very few brexiteers here care about facts. it is however common to blame the EU for everything and facts are usually put away as 'project fear'.

Must be bad for the lot of you if there is a hard Brexit after all. Who are you going to blame then?

Those who did not setup a get out clause in the beginning....?????

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

37 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Monti was installed by the Italian president, not the EU commission. As another poster already pointed out, your claim about the greek 'independence' vote is a falsehood. The problems of Greek (and Italian) economies were mainly caused by mismanagement of national governments, not the EU. How is the unemployment in Ireland related to EU policies? Or has the situation improved because of them? The EU is not to blame for African immigrants that want to reach Lampedusa. If you have a solution to this problem, please enlighten us.

Sorry, but very few brexiteers here care about facts. it is however common to blame the EU for everything and facts are usually put away as 'project fear'.

Must be bad for the lot of you if there is a hard Brexit after all. Who are you going to blame then?

Monti was installed by appointment after Berlusconi was resigned, but had indeed appointed by him to a 'lifelong senator position'.

However - 'installed by the Italian president' with the context that it was an amicable handover is a disingenuous thing to claim. 

 

'Former Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi repeated accusations on Wednesday that he had been forced out of office at the height of the euro zone crisis in 2011 as the result of a plot by European Union officials.'

 

'Berlusconi’s comments followed the publication of a book by former U.S. treasury secretary Timothy Geithner which suggested that the U.S. government had been asked to help force Berlusconi to resign as the crisis escalated in late 2011.'

 

“At one point that fall, a few European officials approached us with a scheme to try to force Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi out of power; they wanted us to refuse to support IMF loans to Italy until he was gone,” Geithner wrote in his book, “Stress Test: Reflections on Financial Crises”, extracts from which appeared in the Italian press this week.

 

'Berlusconi resigned in November 2011 after months of tension on financial markets led to fears that investors could refuse to buy Italian bonds, sending the euro zone’s third-largest economy into default and breaking the single currency apart.'

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-berlusconi/italys-berlusconi-says-he-was-forced-out-by-eu-plot-idUSBREA4D0N720140514 -  

 

No elections held as I said, simple reappointment of an ex-EU Commissioner ????. And I'm no fan of Berlusconi, but of due democratic process I am, unlike the EU.

I've already refuted the point you're trying to make re: Greek independence in a previous post. You can choose to view it whichever way you like, but the reality on the ground and more importantly the treatment of the country is the salient point - as I provided evidence to support already.

The ECB and Deutschebank among others are pillars of the EU financial machine and have in fact precipitated the issues in both Italy and Greece - if you think they have had no effect on the economic mess in either Italy or Greece (which I will fully agree have suffered from terrible national mismanagement) then I'm not sure where you're coming from. 

 

'The EU has enforced a 25 per cent contraction in the size of the Greek economy during the last eight years (more severe than the great American depression of the 1930s) and its fiscal punishments have caused youth unemployment to reach a staggering 44 per cent.' 

'Analysts estimate that some €230 billion (80 per cent) of the €290 billion eight-year rescue package has gone straight to European banks, bypassing the stricken Greeks altogether. As Yanis Varoufakis, the rock-star former finance minister and the bane of Brussels, has said: ‘Greece didn’t get a bailout.’ The bailout went ‘primarily to French and German banks’.

 

'As a recent Bloomberg editorial recently put it: ‘Irresponsible borrowers can’t exist without irresponsible lenders. The ECB and German banks were Greece’s enablers.’

 

Similar story in Ireland, though to be fair, it was perhaps more of a home-grown problem, exacerbated by the ECB. Created by / exacerbated by / enabled by - semantics in my opinion.

 

'Many of those banks' creditors were banks and financial institutions in the rest of Europe, and European Central Bank (ECB) regulators were worried about systemic risk if Irish banks were allowed to fail without a bailout by the government - in other words, by taxpayers.' - This lead directly to the financial crisis and the mass unemployment. 

 

'ECB then-President Jean-Claude Trichet essentially forced Ireland's government to pay out the creditors of Ireland's banks for 100 cents on the Euro, by threatening to withhold ECB funding of Irish banks'

 

I am not blaming 'everything' on the EU/EC/ECB either, there's of course personal / individual responsibility within the governments of said nations too, but they're superseded by an establishment that care far less for any concerns or well-being of the people of the countries they govern than they do for the corporate and financial giants' interests, many of whom's staff - current and former - comprise the top echelons of the EU and/or have close ties to them. 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Monti was installed by appointment after Berlusconi was resigned, but had indeed appointed him to a 'lifelong senator position'.

However - 'installed by the Italian president' with the context that it was an amicable handover is a disingenuous thing to claim. 

 

'Former Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi repeated accusations on Wednesday that he had been forced out of office at the height of the euro zone crisis in 2011 as the result of a plot by European Union officials.'

 

'Berlusconi’s comments followed the publication of a book by former U.S. treasury secretary Timothy Geithner which suggested that the U.S. government had been asked to help force Berlusconi to resign as the crisis escalated in late 2011.'

 

“At one point that fall, a few European officials approached us with a scheme to try to force Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi out of power; they wanted us to refuse to support IMF loans to Italy until he was gone,” Geithner wrote in his book, “Stress Test: Reflections on Financial Crises”, extracts from which appeared in the Italian press this week.

 

'Berlusconi resigned in November 2011 after months of tension on financial markets led to fears that investors could refuse to buy Italian bonds, sending the euro zone’s third-largest economy into default and breaking the single currency apart.'

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-berlusconi/italys-berlusconi-says-he-was-forced-out-by-eu-plot-idUSBREA4D0N720140514 -  

 

No elections held as I said, simple reappointment of an ex-EU Commissioner ????. And I'm no fan of Berlusconi, but of due democratic process I am, unlike the EU.

I've already refuted the point you're trying to make re: Greek independence in a previous post. You can choose to view it whichever way you like, but the reality on the ground and more importantly the treatment of the country is the salient point - as I provided evidence to support already.

The ECB and Deutschebank among others are pillars of the EU financial machine and have in fact precipitated the issues in both Italy and Greece - if you think they have had no effect on the economic mess in either Italy or Greece (which I will fully agree have suffered from terrible national mismanagement) then I'm not sure where you're coming from. 

 

'The EU has enforced a 25 per cent contraction in the size of the Greek economy during the last eight years (more severe than the great American depression of the 1930s) and its fiscal punishments have caused youth unemployment to reach a staggering 44 per cent.' 

'Analysts estimate that some €230 billion (80 per cent) of the €290 billion eight-year rescue package has gone straight to European banks, bypassing the stricken Greeks altogether. As Yanis Varoufakis, the rock-star former finance minister and the bane of Brussels, has said: ‘Greece didn’t get a bailout.’ The bailout went ‘primarily to French and German banks’.

 

'As a recent Bloomberg editorial recently put it: ‘Irresponsible borrowers can’t exist without irresponsible lenders. The ECB and German banks were Greece’s enablers.’

 

Similar story in Ireland, though to be fair, it was perhaps more of a home-grown problem, exacerbate by the ECB. Created by / exacerbated by / enabled by - semantics in my opinion.

 

'Many of those banks' creditors were banks and financial institutions in the rest of Europe, and European Central Bank (ECB) regulators were worried about systemic risk if Irish banks were allowed to fail without a bailout by the government - in other words, by taxpayers.' - This lead directly to the financial crisis and the mass unemployment. 

 

'ECB then-President Jean-Claude Trichet essentially forced Ireland's government to pay out the creditors of Ireland's banks for 100 cents on the Euro, by threatening to withhold ECB funding of Irish banks'

 

I am not blaming 'everything' on the EU/EC/ECB either, there's of course personal / individual responsibility within the governments of said nations too, but they're superseded by an establishment that care far less for any concerns or well-being of the people of the countries they govern than they do for the corporate and financial giants interests, many of whom's staff - current and former comprise the top echelons of the EU and/or have close ties to them. 

 

 

Right it was the EU that cut taxes on the wealthy in the UK and slashed support for the NHS, Social Services, and the Police. Definitely the EU's policy to turn the UK into a mini-USA.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Yes those 3 nations were screwed over because they are members of the Eurozone. What has that got to do with the UK's membership in the EU?

Also, Greeks did not vote 62-38 percent for independence. That's simply false. They did vote to reject the terms the EU imposed on them. But in fact, in subsequent elections. leaving the Eurozone or the EU was, to put it mildly, not a popular option..

tend to agree

also my understanding is that Greece is clear that she wants to stay in EU and the Eurozone.

 

as for Italy, I expect lively exchanges between EU and Italy in times to come, opera can be entertaining.

 

I think this canterbury creature and a few others are a bit over the top re blaming EU now,

 

there is hardly any doubt that EU dragged Ireland and Portugal out of poverty

no doubt EU played a major role in sorting Spain post fascism

(Italy is Italy - special case when it comes to politics and institutional matters, so is Austria OPERA is more fun)

 

done some good stuff some not so good stuff

 

greece and debts, greece signed on voluntarily, wanted to stay in both EU and the Eurozone

 

Fastnet -79 was not EUs fault.