Splits deepen over British minister Johnson's burqa comments

[MrPatrickThai]

13 hours ago, 7by7 said:

That you have resorted to such ridiculous arguments for removing a woman's freedom to choose what to wear shows how desperate you have become.

They don't choose -  their husbands force them or they are brainwashed into thinking they need to. I'm sure there are some who wear them because they they don't like their face.

[Chomper Higgot]

33 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

They don't choose -  their husbands force them or they are brainwashed into thinking they need to. I'm sure there are some who wear them because they they don't like their face.

And your experience of successfully brain washing wives is?

[simple1]

57 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

They don't choose -  their husbands force them or they are brainwashed into thinking they need to. <snip>

The question has been posed a number of times, without an answer,  of why people with your opinion think banning full face coverings in all public places would be a positive for a women living in the above circumstances. 

 

The Atlantic article linked in this topic provides a number of logical reasons why in fact it would be a backward step for women living in an abusive household and for society in general.

[MrPatrickThai]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And your experience of successfully brain washing wives is?

brainwashed by their intolerant religion

[dick dasterdly]

On 8/20/2018 at 5:42 AM, bristolboy said:

One of the assumptions that supporters of the burga ban make is that it will actually help the women who wear them. In fact it may endanger them. It can also encourage non burga-wearing women to adopt that article of clothing. And it can actually increase the isolation of these women.

Banning Muslim Veils Tends to Backfire—Why Do Countries Keep Doing It?

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/08/denmark-burqa-veil-ban/566630/

What a lot of 'codswallop'!

 

I suppose it's possibly true that a few Moslem women would be forced to remain at home if the burka was banned - but would their men-folk be happy to do the shopping etc. on their behalf?  Or would both the wife and husband decide (as a result of the burka/niqab being banned) that the Khimar was - in fact - acceptable after all.....?

 

The same applies to the recent appearance of the few young, brit-born, Moslem women, that have decided to choose to start wearing the burka - for some illogical reason that has nothing to do with their religion!

 

It's time to stop 'pussy-footing' around when it comes to the education of children - and insist that ALL (from starting school) attend non-denominational schools, wear the appropriate uniform, attend/participate in all lessons - so they (at the very least) stand a chance of fully integrating with their peers.

[Chomper Higgot]

50 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

What a lot of 'codswallop'!

 

I suppose it's possibly true that a few Moslem women would be forced to remain at home if the burka was banned - but would their men-folk be happy to do the shopping etc. on their behalf?  Or would both the wife and husband decide (as a result of the burka/niqab being banned) that the Khimar was - in fact - acceptable after all.....?

 

The same applies to the recent appearance of the few young, brit-born, Moslem women, that have decided to choose to start wearing the burka - for some illogical reason that has nothing to do with their religion!

 

It's time to stop 'pussy-footing' around when it comes to the education of children - and insist that ALL (from starting school) attend non-denominational schools, wear the appropriate uniform, attend/participate in all lessons - so they (at the very least) stand a chance of fully integrating with their peers.

“suppose it's possibly true that a few Moslem women...”

 

Nuff said.

[dick dasterdly]

35 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

“suppose it's possibly true that a few Moslem women...”

 

Nuff said.

I cannot apologise enough for making the mistake of spelling it incorrectly again....

 

Reminds me of the old 'Kenya/Keenya' pronunciation arguments, not to mention 'Van Go'/Van Goff' disputes and - nowadays, 'Porsche'/'Porsha' arguments!

 

If you're basing your assumption on a spelling mistake that I make every now and again when posting, then you really are bereft of any serious point to make....

[simple1]

45 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

“suppose it's possibly true that a few Moslem women...”

 

Nuff said.

Be interesting to observe the response in the UK,  even more so in Thailand, attempting to pass legislation requiring all children  "(from starting school) attend non-denominational schools". 

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

What a lot of 'codswallop'!

 

I suppose it's possibly true that a few Moslem women would be forced to remain at home if the burka was banned - but would their men-folk be happy to do the shopping etc. on their behalf?  Or would both the wife and husband decide (as a result of the burka/niqab being banned) that the Khimar was - in fact - acceptable after all.....?

 

The same applies to the recent appearance of the few young, brit-born, Moslem women, that have decided to choose to start wearing the burka - for some illogical reason that has nothing to do with their religion!

 

It's time to stop 'pussy-footing' around when it comes to the education of children - and insist that ALL (from starting school) attend non-denominational schools, wear the appropriate uniform, attend/participate in all lessons - so they (at the very least) stand a chance of fully integrating with their peers.

 

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

Be interesting to observe the response in the UK,  even more so in Thailand, attempting to pass legislation requiring all children  "(from starting school) attend non-denominational schools". 

I agree that the response from various religious groups in the uk (we're talking about the purportedly first world country, the uk - not Thailand) would be instantaneous and condemnatory - but that doesn't make my opinion wrong.

 

I hope that most 'neutral' people would agree that trying to indoctrinate children in schools (quite apart from at home!) is entirely wrong.

[7by7]

@dick dasterdly

I asked you a straight question; instead of giving the requested straight answer you have prevaricated, and ended by repeating that you would only support freedom of choice if certain conditions, set by you, are met; in other words if you approve of that choice.

 

You protestations of being concerned purely about women's rights ring extremely hollow!

 

 

[The manic]

12 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And your experience of successfully brain washing wives is?

We didn't carry out the brainwashing but observed, it and its results in a variety of countries. The Mohammaden men are also brainwashed too. Its not just women who suffer under islam The veil of ignorance and superstion is not gender neutral!

[7by7]

13 hours ago, superal said:

The main crux of the Johnson quote is really about inappropriate dress in the UK and the fact that it has no resemblance to UK living or attire . If these immigrants want to live and conform to UK standards they would not be segregating themselves by wearing alien clothes and if it means that much to them I suggest they go back to their home lands where they can practice their customs to their hearts content 

 

Do you include all members of communities who wear dress which is not traditionally British?

 

Such as

• Hindu women in saris;
• Sikh men in turbans;
• Haredi Jewish men in their long black coats, prayer shawls and funny haircuts and women in long skirts and tops with their hair covered by scarves, hats or wigs;
• etc., etc.?

14 hours ago, superal said:

The majority of them are in the UK only because it is a land of easy handouts compared to their mother countries

Utter nonsense, there are no easy handouts for immigrants; familiarise yourself with the immigration rules if you want to make comments like that!

 

14 hours ago, superal said:

The burqa has become a symbol of all Muslims and I have to tell you they are not a popular people throughout Europe , in case you did not know because of their religious beliefs ,treatment to women and terrorism across the globe . They truly believe that they will rule the UK in the near future and are told to produce as many off spring as possible to enable this .

Rubbish; straight out of the alt right neo fascist handbook.

 

13 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I appreciate  immigrants who have truly integrated to the UK , studied hard , gained respected qualifications and made a good contribution to the country , especially those within the medical field . They live among the local community and dress in normal western fashion and even pop down to the local pub for a pint and chat . They are people who are thankful , respectful and appreciate the chance they have been given by the UK

Many Muslims work in the NHS, from porters and cleaners to top consultants; as do many others from immigrant communities. Some wear British dress, others don't; whether they be Muslims or not.

 

14 hours ago, superal said:

Would you like to live next door to a mosque ? 

I don't live next door to a mosque, but do live within less than a mile of one. Doesn't bother me.

 

Near that mosque is a Muslim cemetery where the bodies of Muslim soldiers killed on the Western Front during the Great war were buried. After the war their bodies were repatriated to their homes and the cemetery is now unused but remains as a memorial to those who fought and died for this country.

 

 

[7by7]

Duplicate

[7by7]

9 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

What a lot of 'codswallop'!

 

I suppose it's possibly true that a few Moslem women would be forced to remain at home if the burka was banned - but would their men-folk be happy to do the shopping etc. on their behalf?  Or would both the wife and husband decide (as a result of the burka/niqab being banned) that the Khimar was - in fact - acceptable after all.....?

A typical reaction; 'I can't dispute it, so I'll rubbish it.'

 

9 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

The same applies to the recent appearance of the few young, brit-born, Moslem women, that have decided to choose to start wearing the burka - for some illogical reason that has nothing to do with their religion!

Again, young women are making a choice you disapprove of, so you call it illogical.

 

You obviously do believe in a women's right to choose only when you approve of that choice!

 

10 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

It's time to stop 'pussy-footing' around when it comes to the education of children - and insist that ALL (from starting school) attend non-denominational schools, wear the appropriate uniform, attend/participate in all lessons - so they (at the very least) stand a chance of fully integrating with their peers.

 

 I agree that the state has no business interfering in a person's religion; and as part of that I would separate the state from the Church of England.

 

Most state faith schools in the UK are CofE or Catholic; would you ban those?

 

What about private faith schools?

 

What about after school classes? I was raised a Catholic, but attended a CofE school. As a boy I attended catechism class and later confirmation class on a Sunday after Mass. Would you ban those?

 

Or is it, as I suspect, only schools and after school classes of a particular religion that you would ban?

 

BTW, my daughter went to school with pupils from many and varied communities and religions, the same with college and then university.

 

She made many friends from the varied communities, and they all seem to have integrated perfectly; despite what they choose to wear.

[Scott]

A baiting post has been removed.   Stay on topic and stop with the personal commentary.  

 

[superal]

5 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Do you include all members of communities who wear dress which is not traditionally British?

 

Such as

• Hindu women in saris;
• Sikh men in turbans;
• Haredi Jewish men in their long black coats, prayer shawls and funny haircuts and women in long skirts and tops with their hair covered by scarves, hats or wigs;
• etc., etc.?

Utter nonsense, there are no easy handouts for immigrants; familiarise yourself with the immigration rules if you want to make comments like that!

 

Rubbish; straight out of the alt right neo fascist handbook.

 

Many Muslims work in the NHS, from porters and cleaners to top consultants; as do many others from immigrant communities. Some wear British dress, others don't; whether they be Muslims or not.

 

I don't live next door to a mosque, but do live within less than a mile of one. Doesn't bother me.

 

Near that mosque is a Muslim cemetery where the bodies of Muslim soldiers killed on the Western Front during the Great war were buried. After the war their bodies were repatriated to their homes and the cemetery is now unused but remains as a memorial to those who fought and died for this country.

 

 

I think you are living in the past quoting events from 100 years ago 

 

5 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Do you include all members of communities who wear dress which is not traditionally British?

 

Such as

• Hindu women in saris;
• Sikh men in turbans;
• Haredi Jewish men in their long black coats, prayer shawls and funny haircuts and women in long skirts and tops with their hair covered by scarves, hats or wigs;
• etc., etc.?

Utter nonsense, there are no easy handouts for immigrants; familiarise yourself with the immigration rules if you want to make comments like that!

 

Rubbish; straight out of the alt right neo fascist handbook.

 

Many Muslims work in the NHS, from porters and cleaners to top consultants; as do many others from immigrant communities. Some wear British dress, others don't; whether they be Muslims or not.

 

I don't live next door to a mosque, but do live within less than a mile of one. Doesn't bother me.

 

Near that mosque is a Muslim cemetery where the bodies of Muslim soldiers killed on the Western Front during the Great war were buried. After the war their bodies were repatriated to their homes and the cemetery is now unused but remains as a memorial to those who fought and died for this country.

 

 

.The Muslim soldiers in the first world war did indeed make a significant contribution to Great Britain in a time when India & Pakistan were part of the British empire . At that time there were never the problems that we have today in a hostile world that is threatened by the Muslim faith .  I think that you are clutching at straws with your weak argument. You are clearly out numbered with your burqa views but each to their own . 

[bristolboy]

37 minutes ago, superal said:

I think you are living in the past quoting events from 100 years ago 

 

.The Muslim soldiers in the first world war did indeed make a significant contribution to Great Britain in a time when India & Pakistan were part of the British empire . At that time there were never the problems that we have today in a hostile world that is threatened by the Muslim faith .  I think that you are clutching at straws with your weak argument. You are clearly out numbered with your burqa views but each to their own . 

And clearly the cited threat from the Muslim faith will be diminished by a ban on the burqa because....?

[7by7]

6 hours ago, superal said:

12 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Near that mosque is a Muslim cemetery where the bodies of Muslim soldiers killed on the Western Front during the Great war were buried. After the war their bodies were repatriated to their homes and the cemetery is now unused but remains as a memorial to those who fought and died for this country.

 

 

I think you are living in the past quoting events from 100 years ago 

 When many people who think as you do use events from over 1000 years ago to back up their arguments, do you make the same comment?

 

6 hours ago, superal said:

The Muslim soldiers in the first world war did indeed make a significant contribution to Great Britain in a time when India & Pakistan were part of the British empire . At that time there were never the problems that we have today in a hostile world that is threatened by the Muslim faith .  I think that you are clutching at straws with your weak argument. You are clearly out numbered with your burqa views but each to their own . 

Muslim soldiers from what was then the Indian Empire fought and died in the Second World War as well; not just in the Far east, but in North Africa and Europe as well. Like in the First War, they were all volunteers.

 

British Muslims serve today in the British armed forces.

 

Odd that you consider two world wars within 30 years to be less of a problem than Islamic terrorism.

 

What about threats since then? The PIRA, INLA, UDA etc killed more British citizens in terrorist atrocities than Islamic terrorists have!

 

But just as being Irish was not a threat, the Muslim faith is not a threat. The threat then came from terrorists using an Irish cause, Republicanism or Nationalism, as an excuse for their acts. The threat today comes from terrorists using the Muslim faith as their excuse.

 

I suspect that, just as with other terrorists in the past, whilst the foot soldiers believe in that cause, those at the top do not and are using it to feather their own nests!

 

I have posted my views on the burka and niqab before; I think they, like other religious or ethnic dress, look ridiculous. But I am arguing for a woman's right to choose what she wears.

 

You, too, obviously only believe in that right when you approve of her choice!

 

 

[superal]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 When many people who think as you do use events from over 1000 years ago to back up their arguments, do you make the same comment?

 

Muslim soldiers from what was then the Indian Empire fought and died in the Second World War as well; not just in the Far east, but in North Africa and Europe as well. Like in the First War, they were all volunteers.

 

British Muslims serve today in the British armed forces.

 

Odd that you consider two world wars within 30 years to be less of a problem than Islamic terrorism.

 

What about threats since then? The PIRA, INLA, UDA etc killed more British citizens in terrorist atrocities than Islamic terrorists have!

 

But just as being Irish was not a threat, the Muslim faith is not a threat. The threat then came from terrorists using an Irish cause, Republicanism or Nationalism, as an excuse for their acts. The threat today comes from terrorists using the Muslim faith as their excuse.

 

I suspect that, just as with other terrorists in the past, whilst the foot soldiers believe in that cause, those at the top do not and are using it to feather their own nests!

 

I have posted my views on the burka and niqab before; I think they, like other religious or ethnic dress, look ridiculous. But I am arguing for a woman's right to choose what she wears.

 

You, too, obviously only believe in that right when you approve of her choice!

 

 

I repeat ,  you are talking history which is not relevant to the modern day problems that threaten many western countries . In the past month alone we have has 2 attacks by newly UK nationalized Muslims . Talk about biting the hand that feeds you . These terrorists have been known to dress as a female Muslim , burqa and all to evade intelligence and security .     The burqa and associated dress are a symbol of Muslims and all that goes with it from the Koran . Muslim women are forced to wear the burqa and are treated worse than animals in many cases . There is zero equality for women within the Muslim faith and the burqa says it all . However I am happy for them to wear it in the country that they came from .

                     Finally when you talk about the Muslim support in 2 world wars , try remembering the many true Brits who lost their lives to protect the UK . They would turn in their graves if they could see the state of the country now .   

[simple1]

1 hour ago, superal said:

There is zero equality for women within the Muslim faith

As you should know concepts such as equality and justice are socially constructed, not from spirituality. The Koran spells out equality of rights for men and women. As you likely know, Sharia law spelled out property rights for women hundreds of years prior to similar law enacted in Western society. The oppression and subjugation of women in the Muslim world is a man made artifact, not spelled out by the Koran. IMO the links below provide easily understood content which lays out the issues.

 

https://www.whyislam.org/social-issues/gender-equity-in-islam/

 

http://www.asma-lamrabet.com/articles/are-men-and-women-unequal-in-islam/

 

 

 

[Scott]

Off-topic post reported and removed.  

 

[bristolboy]

12 hours ago, superal said:

I repeat ,  you are talking history which is not relevant to the modern day problems that threaten many western countries . In the past month alone we have has 2 attacks by newly UK nationalized Muslims . 

And both of them were wearing burkas?

[superal]

6 hours ago, bristolboy said:

And both of them were wearing burkas?

Wouldn't be the first time that Muslim terrorists have dressed in the Muslim female garb to defy security searches .

[dick dasterdly]

18 hours ago, simple1 said:

As you should know concepts such as equality and justice are socially constructed, not from spirituality. The Koran spells out equality of rights for men and women. As you likely know, Sharia law spelled out property rights for women hundreds of years prior to similar law enacted in Western society. The oppression and subjugation of women in the Muslim world is a man made artifact, not spelled out by the Koran. IMO the links below provide easily understood content which lays out the issues.

 

https://www.whyislam.org/social-issues/gender-equity-in-islam/

 

http://www.asma-lamrabet.com/articles/are-men-and-women-unequal-in-islam/

 

 

 

I agree with much of this, but wearing the burka is also a 'man made artifact to oppress and subjugate women' - in the same way that 'sharia law' nowadays is frequently used against women to ensure they have nothing close to equality - even though it has little/nothing to do with religion or 'spirituality'.

[simple1]

45 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree with much of this, but wearing the burka is also a 'man made artifact to oppress and subjugate women' - in the same way that 'sharia law' nowadays is frequently used against women to ensure they have nothing close to equality - even though it has little/nothing to do with religion or 'spirituality'.

In your opinion, not exclusively. IMO you really do need to do further research rather than making broad brush highly opinionated claims, hint,  Mohammed's wives. Another hint for you...

 

During ihram, women must have their faces uncovered; they are forbidden to wear the Burqa or Niqab. However, the Hijab or Dupatta is obligatory.^[1] There is also no gender segregation during the Hajj. Unlike in mosques, men and women pray together, not just in the same area but also on the same prayer line. This is to remind everyone that on the Day of Judgment, both men and women will be standing together, side by side, in the same rows.^[2]

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

On 8/22/2018 at 1:24 AM, 7by7 said:

A typical reaction; 'I can't dispute it, so I'll rubbish it.'

 

Again, young women are making a choice you disapprove of, so you call it illogical.

 

You obviously do believe in a women's right to choose only when you approve of that choice!

 

 

 I agree that the state has no business interfering in a person's religion; and as part of that I would separate the state from the Church of England.

 

Most state faith schools in the UK are CofE or Catholic; would you ban those?

 

What about private faith schools?

 

What about after school classes? I was raised a Catholic, but attended a CofE school. As a boy I attended catechism class and later confirmation class on a Sunday after Mass. Would you ban those?

 

Or is it, as I suspect, only schools and after school classes of a particular religion that you would ban?

 

BTW, my daughter went to school with pupils from many and varied communities and religions, the same with college and then university.

 

She made many friends from the varied communities, and they all seem to have integrated perfectly; despite what they choose to wear.

Heavy sigh....☹️

 

You are entirely wrong as my post made clear by stating:-

 

"It's time to stop 'pussy-footing' around when it comes to the education of children - and insist that ALL (from starting school) attend non-denominational schools, wear the appropriate uniform, attend/participate in all lessons".

 

And yes, my personal opinion is that "after school classes" in religion should also be banned, as I think children should not be allowed to be indoctrinated into any religion.  They should be able to make up their own minds once they are adults.

 

On the other hand, I've no problem at all with  non-denominational schools having classes that explain the beliefs of all religions.

[dick dasterdly]

20 hours ago, simple1 said:

As you should know concepts such as equality and justice are socially constructed, not from spirituality. The Koran spells out equality of rights for men and women. As you likely know, Sharia law spelled out property rights for women hundreds of years prior to similar law enacted in Western society. The oppression and subjugation of women in the Muslim world is a man made artifact, not spelled out by the Koran. IMO the links below provide easily understood content which lays out the issues.

 

https://www.whyislam.org/social-issues/gender-equity-in-islam/

 

http://www.asma-lamrabet.com/articles/are-men-and-women-unequal-in-islam/

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree with much of this, but wearing the burka is also a 'man made artifact to oppress and subjugate women' - in the same way that 'sharia law' nowadays is frequently used against women to ensure they have nothing close to equality - even though it has little/nothing to do with religion or 'spirituality'.

 

24 minutes ago, simple1 said:

In your opinion, not exclusively. IMO you really do need to do further research rather than making broad brush highly opinionated claims, hint,  Mohammed's wives. Another hint for you...

 

During ihram, women must have their faces uncovered; they are forbidden to wear the Burqa or Niqab. However, the Hijab or Dupatta is obligatory.^[1]  This is to remind everyone that on the Day of Judgment, both men and women will be standing together, side by side, in the same rows.^[2]

 

 

I'm entirely missing the point you are making.

 

"During ihram, women must have their faces uncovered; they are forbidden to wear the Burqa or Niqab."

 

So at other times it's part of the Islamic religion that women wear the burka or niqab??  Mohammed had wives that were very young (putting it politely...) and they wore the burka/niqab, which makes it entirely acceptable nowadays?

 

"There is also no gender segregation during the Hajj. Unlike in mosques, men and women pray together, not just in the same area but also on the same prayer line."

 

So enforcing prayer equality on one special occasion proves exactly what??

 

This 'conversation' is becoming extremely weird as I have nothing in particular against the ordinary Muslim religious faith (despite your 'mistakes' cough, cough ?, insisting otherwise....) - but your last post seem to be coming up with an 'argument' saying that Muslims only have to behave equally re. gender on special occasions?

 

 

[simple1]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

I'm entirely missing the point you are making.

 

"During ihram, women must have their faces uncovered; they are forbidden to wear the Burqa or Niqab."

 

So at other times it's part of the Islamic religion that women wear the burka or niqab??  Mohammed had wives that were very young (putting it politely...) and they wore the burka/niqab, which makes it entirely acceptable nowadays?

 

"There is also no gender segregation during the Hajj. Unlike in mosques, men and women pray together, not just in the same area but also on the same prayer line."

 

So enforcing prayer equality on one special occasion proves exactly what??

 

This 'conversation' is becoming extremely weird as I have nothing in particular against the ordinary Muslim religious faith (despite your 'mistakes' cough, cough ?, insisting otherwise....) - but your last post seem to be coming up with an 'argument' saying that Muslims only have to behave equally re. gender on special occasions?

 

 

Think

[bristolboy]

11 hours ago, superal said:

Wouldn't be the first time that Muslim terrorists have dressed in the Muslim female garb to defy security searches .

But, in fact, they weren't wearing burqas. But I'm sure you can cite many instances in the UK when this happened. Please share them with us.

[The manic]

12 hours ago, simple1 said:

In your opinion, not exclusively. IMO you really do need to do further research rather than making broad brush highly opinionated claims, hint,  Mohammed's wives. Another hint for you...

 

During ihram, women must have their faces uncovered; they are forbidden to wear the Burqa or Niqab. However, the Hijab or Dupatta is obligatory.^[1] There is also no gender segregation during the Hajj. Unlike in mosques, men and women pray together, not just in the same area but also on the same prayer line. This is to remind everyone that on the Day of Judgment, both men and women will be standing together, side by side, in the same rows.^[2]

 

 

Pre medieval superstitious nonsense. Falsified revelation.