Splits deepen over British minister Johnson's burqa comments

[bristolboy]

46 minutes ago, The manic said:

Pre medieval superstitious nonsense. Falsified revelation. 

As opposed to the rational basis, beliefs and practices of the other Abrahamic faiths?

[The manic]

12 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

As opposed to the rational basis, beliefs and practices of the other Abrahamic faiths?

Whatever. The law in my country is based on common law, precedents, etc not religious lunacy. Law should be based on science, rationality and reason not bonkers pre medieval, dark ages rambling of a nutter. People can believe what they want...The moon is made of green cheese..but that is their personal and private belief for home and places of worship.  That is the problem with primitive Islam it imposes religious rubbish on other people and sections of society that should remain secular. There is no God. There are no prophets. When Muslims are free to shout this out loud and not be executed for apostasy then it will be a true belief system not a facist death cult.  

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, The manic said:

Whatever. The law in my country is based on common law, precedents, etc not religious lunacy. Law should be based on science, rationality and reason not bonkers pre medieval, dark ages rambling of a nutter. People can believe what they want...The moon is made of green cheese..but that is their personal and private belief for home and places of worship.  That is the problem with primitive Islam it imposes religious rubbish on other people and sections of society that should remain secular. There is no God. There are no prophets. When Muslims are free to shout this out loud and not be executed for apostasy then it will be a true belief system not a facist death cult.  

If your country is the UK, then what's your problem? Are Musllims stopping from shouting your beliefs out loud?

[simple1]

3 hours ago, The manic said:

Pre medieval superstitious nonsense. Falsified revelation. 

So what, can make the same accusations with all Abrahamic faiths, not unique to Islam. 

 

Thailand also has many superstitious practices, both with practitioners of Islam and Buddhism

[Scott]

Troll post and reply removed.  

 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, The manic said:

Whatever. The law in my country is based on common law, precedents, etc not religious lunacy. Law should be based on science, rationality and reason not bonkers pre medieval, dark ages rambling of a nutter. People can believe what they want...The moon is made of green cheese..but that is their personal and private belief for home and places of worship.  That is the problem with primitive Islam it imposes religious rubbish on other people and sections of society that should remain secular. There is no God. There are no prophets. When Muslims are free to shout this out loud and not be executed for apostasy then it will be a true belief system not a facist death cult.  

Much of UK law is rooted in morality and values that are directly derived from religious teachings.

 

 

[superal]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Much of UK law is rooted in morality and values that are directly derived from religious teachings.

 

 

Two wrongs do not make a right and those you quote are still in the dark ages as they know no better because they are indoctrinated with ancient beliefs .  Hence the Muslim burqa and all that it symbolizes  has no place in a modern  western country . The one thing that amazes me is that governments allow these Muslim practices to exist . Got to be seen to be  politically correct and non racist . Try taking your customs or ways of living to some  Muslim country and see the way they will react . Many Muslims are hypocritical as they expect foreign countries to accept their ways / customs but have no tolerance for alien views / habits / ways  within their own lands  . 

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, superal said:

Two wrongs do not make a right and those you quote are still in the dark ages as they know no better because they are indoctrinated with ancient beliefs .  Hence the Muslim burqa and all that it symbolizes  has no place in a modern  western country . The one thing that amazes me is that governments allow these Muslim practices to exist . Got to be seen to be  politically correct and non racist . Try taking your customs or ways of living to some  Muslim country and see the way they will react . Many Muslims are hypocritical as they expect foreign countries to accept their ways / customs but have no tolerance for alien views / habits / ways  within their own lands  . 

Freedom of choice has a big place in ‘Western society’.

 

Even Boris understands that, which is why he does not advocate banning these forms of dress and restricts himself to ‘Hate Baiting’.

[superal]

11 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Freedom of choice has a big place in ‘Western society’.

 

Even Boris understands that, which is why he does not advocate banning these forms of dress and restricts himself to ‘Hate Baiting’.

Like it or not Boris Johnson could be the next UK P.M .  He has chosen not to apologise  for his statements regarding the burqa and  rightly so with a huge backing .  If and when he becomes the PM he may well decide to ban the burqa from being worn in selected places of importance e.g airports , government offices etc ( as have other European countries ) . Also to comply when requested to remove the face veil by police / security forces at any time or place . Non compliance and defiance will carry a penalty . 

[Chomper Higgot]

24 minutes ago, superal said:

Like it or not Boris Johnson could be the next UK P.M .  He has chosen not to apologise  for his statements regarding the burqa and  rightly so with a huge backing .  If and when he becomes the PM he may well decide to ban the burqa from being worn in selected places of importance e.g airports , government offices etc ( as have other European countries ) . Also to comply when requested to remove the face veil by police / security forces at any time or place . Non compliance and defiance will carry a penalty . 

Did you type that with one hand?

[superal]

40 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Did you type that with one hand?

You have just confirmed the weakness of your opinions & debating skills . I think it is time for you to leave the room .

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, superal said:

You have just confirmed the weakness of your opinions & debating skills . I think it is time for you to leave the room .

What because I don’t wish to debate the multiple ‘if’s I’m your Islamophobic fantasy?

 

Your whole was your wishful thinking.

[simple1]

1 hour ago, superal said:

Like it or not Boris Johnson could be the next UK P.M .  He has chosen not to apologise  for his statements regarding the burqa and  rightly so with a huge backing .  If and when he becomes the PM he may well decide to ban the burqa from being worn in selected places of importance e.g airports , government offices etc ( as have other European countries ) . Also to comply when requested to remove the face veil by police / security forces at any time or place . Non compliance and defiance will carry a penalty . 

What are you on about, why the misleading info. Full face covering restrictions are already in-place in the UK as well as police / security forces can demand showing of the face, with power of arrest for non compliance. 

[7by7]

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 10:38 AM, superal said:

I repeat ,  you are talking history which is not relevant to the modern day problems that threaten many western countries .

And I repeat; do you make the same comment when people who think as you do bring up events which happened 1000 years ago? 

 

I see that you have ignored my comment

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 7:55 AM, 7by7 said:

British Muslims serve today in the British armed forces.

plus, of course, many British Muslims serve this country because they work in the NHS and other emergency services. They, and ordinary British Muslims going about their daily lives, far outnumber the tiny minority who wish this country harm.

 

But you and those who share your views ignore that.

 

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 10:38 AM, superal said:

In the past month alone we have has 2 attacks by newly UK nationalized Muslims . Talk about biting the hand that feeds you .

Two? There was the Westminster incident on the 14th, which, I understand, the police are still investigating to see if he was motivated by terrorism or not. What other terrorist attack has there been this month in the UK?

 

Maybe you mean the case of Lewis Ludlow, a convert born in the UK, who on the 15th was convicted of plotting an attack. But that attack never happened; the security services thwarted it. As they do most, usually with the help of intelligence from the British Muslim community.

 

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 10:38 AM, superal said:

These terrorists have been known to dress as a female Muslim , burqa and all to evade intelligence and security . 

Of course, one terrorist attack is one too many; but I asked this question a long time ago: "How many terrorist attacks in the UK have been carried out by people wearing burkas?" No one answered then; will you do so now?

 

The 7/7 bombers wore ordinary, western clothes; they carried their bombs in backpacks. Banning the burka would not have stopped them.

 

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 10:38 AM, superal said:

The burqa and associated dress are a symbol of Muslims and all that goes with it from the Koran . Muslim women are forced to wear the burqa and are treated worse than animals in many cases . There is zero equality for women within the Muslim faith and the burqa says it all . However I am happy for them to wear it in the country that they came from .

The Koran makes no mention of the burka, or niqab. It merely says, as does the Bible, that both men and women should dress modestly.

 

The burka and niqab both predate Islam; they are Middle eastern cultural items, not Islamic. Indeed, as previously shown, some Jewish women wear them!

 

There has been an increase in Muslim women wearing the burka in the UK; but the increase is among young women who were born here, and in many cases whose parents were born here. The country they come from is the UK!

 

The UK, where we enjoy many freedoms denied many people in other lands. Why do you want to remove one of those freedoms?

 

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 10:38 AM, superal said:

Finally when you talk about the Muslim support in 2 world wars , try remembering the many true Brits who lost their lives to protect the UK . They would turn in their graves if they could see the state of the country now .

I do not need to remember, my father volunteered in 1939 and served in the RAF until he was demobbed in 1945.

 

My mother volunteered also and served in the ATS until 1944 when she left to give birth to my eldest brother.

 

They are both dead now, and they, and those who were killed in action or served and died since, would indeed be turning in their graves at the thought of the freedoms they fought for being denied people merely because of their religion!

[7by7]

Three days ago I asked, not for the first time, if those who object to the Burka also object to other forms of 'non British' dress; some of it worn for religious reasons.

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 7:10 PM, 7by7 said:

Such as

• Hindu women in saris;
• Sikh men in turbans;
• Haredi Jewish men in their long black coats, prayer shawls and funny haircuts and women in long skirts and tops with their hair covered by scarves, hats or wigs;
• etc., etc.?

 Each time that question is asked, no one answers.

 

Which proves that their desire to ban the burka is not motivated by a desire for immigrant communities to integrate by wearing only western dress; not motivated by faux feminism and faux equality concerns; not motivated by a desire for a secular society.

 

It is motivated purely by ignorance and prejudice aimed at one group and one group only.

[7by7]

5 hours ago, superal said:

Two wrongs do not make a right and those you quote are still in the dark ages as they know no better because they are indoctrinated with ancient beliefs .  Hence the Muslim burqa and all that it symbolizes  has no place in a modern  western country . The one thing that amazes me is that governments allow these Muslim practices to exist . Got to be seen to be  politically correct and non racist . Try taking your customs or ways of living to some  Muslim country and see the way they will react . Many Muslims are hypocritical as they expect foreign countries to accept their ways / customs but have no tolerance for alien views / habits / ways  within their own lands  . 

 For many, 'their own land' is the UK because  they, and often their parents, were born here.

 

Yet again, you bring up the lack of freedom in certain countries as a reason for reducing the freedoms we enjoy in the UK!

 

For any rational, freedom loving person, shouldn't we be trying to get those countries to copy us, rather than we copy them?

 

 

[7by7]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

4 hours ago, superal said:

Like it or not Boris Johnson could be the next UK P.M .  He has chosen not to apologise  for his statements regarding the burqa and  rightly so with a huge backing .  If and when he becomes the PM he may well decide to ban the burqa from being worn in selected places of importance e.g airports , government offices etc ( as have other European countries ) . Also to comply when requested to remove the face veil by police / security forces at any time or place . Non compliance and defiance will carry a penalty . 

What are you on about, why the misleading info. Full face covering restrictions are already in-place in the UK as well as police / security forces can demand showing of the face, with power of arrest for non compliance. 

 There you go again, simple1; confusing the poor boy with facts!

[dick dasterdly]

45 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Three days ago I asked, not for the first time, if those who object to the Burka also object to other forms of 'non British' dress; some of it worn for religious reasons.

 Each time that question is asked, no one answers.

 

Which proves that their desire to ban the burka is not motivated by a desire for immigrant communities to integrate by wearing only western dress; not motivated by faux feminism and faux equality concerns; not motivated by a desire for a secular society.

 

It is motivated purely by ignorance and prejudice aimed at one group and one group only.

I can't be bothered to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure that I made it very clear that I have little problem with "other forms of 'non-
British' dress" - other than that they are (to one extent or another, dependent on the extremity of the 'non-British dress'), likely to reduce integration.

 

I've also made it VERY clear that personally, I only have a problem with the burka and niqab - as they are physical, misogynist symbols - that, as you point out, have NOTHING to do with religion!

 

57 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

<snip>

The Koran makes no mention of the burka, or niqab. It merely says, as does the Bible, that both men and women should dress modestly.

 

The burka and niqab both predate Islam; they are Middle eastern cultural items, not Islamic. Indeed, as previously shown, some Jewish women wear them!

<snip>

 

[superal]

3 hours ago, simple1 said:

What are you on about, why the misleading info. Full face covering restrictions are already in-place in the UK as well as police / security forces can demand showing of the face, with power of arrest for non compliance. 

Read again my post . I spoke about the burqa , not full face covering . 

Please present your evidence of " Full face covering ban " within the UK 

[simple1]

47 minutes ago, superal said:

Read again my post . I spoke about the burqa , not full face covering . 

Please present your evidence of " Full face covering ban " within the UK 

Playing games. Try getting through Border Control without showing your face, entering Parliament and so on. Same rules apply for burka and niqab as for full face helmets. Police are lawfully enabled to request exposure of face for ID purposes e.g. driver stops, security checks etc, if request refused are empowered to arrest with penalties applied by a Court.

[7by7]

8 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I can't be bothered to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure that I made it very clear that I have little problem with "other forms of 'non-
British' dress" - other than that they are (to one extent or another, dependent on the extremity of the 'non-British dress'), likely to reduce integration.

 

I've also made it VERY clear that personally, I only have a problem with the burka and niqab - as they are physical, misogynist symbols - that, as you point out, have NOTHING to do with religion!

 

 

 If you did make it clear that you have little problem with other forms of non-British dress, then I apologise for including you in my sweeping statement. Shows the danger of making sweeping generalisations; a lesson you would do well to learn.

 

You are again ignoring the fact that, although the burka and niqab are not requirements of Islam, many British Muslim women choose to wear one or the other as an expression of their faith. This has been shown to you time and time again through statements made by women who do choose to wear one or the other.

 

Choose to wear one, not forced to wear one.

 

You are yet again saying that you believe in freedom of choice; but only if you approve of that choice!

 

You want to force your beliefs and choices onto those women who wear the veil through their own free will by legally removing their right to so do; which to my mind makes you as bad as the men you accuse of forcing their wives and daughters into the garments.

 

Of whom there are some, as I have said previously on more than one occasion. But removing the freedom of choice from the majority wont help the minority who have no choice. Those poor women will still be in an abusive relationship. But I doubt you and those like you will care; you will have won your little victory and be too busy congratulating yourselves.

 

 

[7by7]

6 hours ago, simple1 said:

7 hours ago, superal said:

Read again my post . I spoke about the burqa , not full face covering . 

Please present your evidence of " Full face covering ban " within the UK 

Playing games. Try getting through Border Control without showing your face, entering Parliament and so on. Same rules apply for burka and niqab as for full face helmets. Police are lawfully enabled to request exposure of face for ID purposes e.g. driver stops, security checks etc, if request refused are empowered to arrest with penalties applied by a Court

Circumstances in which a burka or niqab wearing woman has to remove it in the UK:

• when required to do so for official identification purposes, from passport control to attending a driving test to anything else where they have to formally identify themselves;
• when passing through security to enter the non public part of any government building, and often the public part of the more vulnerable ones as well;
• more and more commercial premises, such as banks, require anyone entering to remove any face coverings; including women in a burka or niqab
• when answering a charge as the defendant in a court of law;
• when giving evidence as a witness in a court of law;
• most NHS trusts require all staff who have a patient facing role to have their own face uncovered;
• the police have the power to require any person whose face is covered in a public place to remove said covering for security and/or identification purposes, including women in a burka or niqab.

[superal]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Circumstances in which a burka or niqab wearing woman has to remove it in the UK:

• when required to do so for official identification purposes, from passport control to attending a driving test to anything else where they have to formally identify themselves;
• when passing through security to enter the non public part of any government building, and often the public part of the more vulnerable ones as well;
• more and more commercial premises, such as banks, require anyone entering to remove any face coverings; including women in a burka or niqab
• when answering a charge as the defendant in a court of law;
• when giving evidence as a witness in a court of law;
• most NHS trusts require all staff who have a patient facing role to have their own face uncovered;
• the police have the power to require any person whose face is covered in a public place to remove said covering for security and/or identification purposes, including women in a burka or niqab.

Well , I cannot believe you took the bait and fell into the trap .  You are arguing that the burqa should be allowed to be worn in public but you have just demonstrated exactly why it should be banned by producing an extensive list where it is not to be worn .  That is an admission of security risks and having no regards to the ways of living in the UK , instead they wish to export their ideals from their mother country . When you do-gooders can get it through your intransigent minds that Muslim dress and burqa are not welcome by the majority of the UK population , is not a thing of beauty , is the symbol of fear to the western world , has no place in the UK as it demonstrates lack of respect to Muslim women who are forced to wear it and is only the tip of the iceberg regarding Muslim practices .

                                                        Time to leave the dark ages .

 

    

[simple1]

42 minutes ago, superal said:

Well , I cannot believe you took the bait and fell into the trap .  You are arguing that the burqa should be allowed to be worn in public but you have just demonstrated exactly why it should be banned by producing an extensive list where it is not to be worn .  That is an admission of security risks and having no regards to the ways of living in the UK , instead they wish to export their ideals from their mother country . When you do-gooders can get it through your intransigent minds that Muslim dress and burqa are not welcome by the majority of the UK population , is not a thing of beauty , is the symbol of fear to the western world , has no place in the UK as it demonstrates lack of respect to Muslim women who are forced to wear it and is only the tip of the iceberg regarding Muslim practices .

                                                        Time to leave the dark ages .

 

    

You were given a detailed factual response to your Post 219, now you're deflecting with yet another opinionated generalised anti Muslim rant.

 

 

[bristolboy]

45 minutes ago, superal said:

Well , I cannot believe you took the bait and fell into the trap .  You are arguing that the burqa should be allowed to be worn in public but you have just demonstrated exactly why it should be banned by producing an extensive list where it is not to be worn .  That is an admission of security risks and having no regards to the ways of living in the UK , instead they wish to export their ideals from their mother country . When you do-gooders can get it through your intransigent minds that Muslim dress and burqa are not welcome by the majority of the UK population , is not a thing of beauty , is the symbol of fear to the western world , has no place in the UK as it demonstrates lack of respect to Muslim women who are forced to wear it and is only the tip of the iceberg regarding Muslim practices .

                                                        Time to leave the dark ages .

 

    

Given that a burqa draws extra scrutiny in venues where security is an issue, it would be counterproductive to use them. And the facts bear that out. How many times in the UK have attacks been staged by burqa wearing people? 

And since when do a majority's feeling about a mode of dress justify a legal ban? There is a certain meteorological phenomenon used to categorize folk who want to translate their hurt feelings into law.

[Scott]

Continued trolling, baiting and abusive remarks will earn suspensions.  

 

Posts removed.  

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 3:44 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

I’ve worked in Saudi Arabi, seeing Muslim women wearing  wild or Burqa’s doesn’t bother me in the least.

——

 

You need to run your beliefs about what is regarded as ‘a race’ with respect to ‘race hate’ or ‘hate crimes’ within U.K. law past a competent lawyer.

Until you do, don’t ever rely on your own definition as a defence, not of yourself or of others.

How is Islam a "race", given it is practiced by many different races around the world?

No burqas in Saudi. They wear abayas.

[Chomper Higgot]

20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How is Islam a "race", given it is practiced by many different races around the world?

No burqas in Saudi. They wear abayas.

The discussion relates to the UK, therefore the definition of race under UK law matters.

 

Go read what U.K. law has to say on the matter.

[apalink_thailand]

On 8/15/2018 at 1:39 AM, 7by7 said:

"It has been shown to you many times in the other topic that many. I'm not saying all, British Muslim women who wear a niqab or burka do so of their own free will; exercising a choice you would deny them for no reason other than your hate."

Then again, what would happen to those 'free of choice", happy Muslim women, if they decided to take off the headgear and walk about the fully “integrated" streets of their communities? 

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, apalink_thailand said:

Then again, what would happen to those 'free of choice", happy Muslim women, if they decided to take off the headgear and walk about the fully “integrated" streets of their communities? 

Nothing at all, just like the vast majority of Muslim women in the U.K.