Muslum Schools In South

[Yohan]

Might I suggest that if anyone wants an inside view of the Muslim World and the possbile causes of Muslim extremism they read

"The Trouble With Islam" by Irshad Manji

Guesthouse,

Irshad Manji is a Canadian lesbian, selected as a 21st century radical feminist in the media, who addresses any man as sweetie or honey, and leads frequently lesbian and gay pride parades in Toronto. Also once hosted a gay television show.

She calls herself a believer of Islam, because she does not drink alcohol and does not eat pork, and she is visiting mosques in Canada, covered with a burka together with her armed Israeli body-guard.

On the other side, she calls herself a muslim-refusenik, was expelled from a Canadian Muslim School, talks about reconciling God and gays, and calls her religion - this is Islam - racist and evil....

It must be noticed, that Irshad Manji is not a specialist regarding Islam, her knowledge of arabic is NIL, and she was never a resident in an Islamic country, she admires Israel for its freedom, tolerance, intellectual openness ....

Guesthouse, sorry, is this book really a good reference to Islam?

And is this the only reference what you are using?

Johann

[GuestHouse]

Johan,

I've got plane to catch in abotu half and hour I'll get back to you later this week.

The other reference I have is the Koran, which I have read.

That Irshad Manji is a Lesbian is irrelevent.

Does not the Koran say that Alah made all things ... presumably Lesbians too.

And I don't know of any research that says a Lesbian can not be a thinknig and inteligent person with their own valuable insights.

if you can keep sexuality out of this discussion it might help us see what you are talking about rather than the usual victimisation of others..

Back to you later... I'm going to enjoy this.

[Yohan]

Johan,

I've got plane to catch in abotu half and hour I'll get back to you later this week.

The other reference I have is the Koran, which I have read.

That Irshad Manji is a Lesbian is irrelevent.

Does not the Koran say that Alah made all things ... presumably Lesbians too.

And I don't know of any research that says a Lesbian can not be a thinknig and inteligent person with their own valuable insights.

if you can keep sexuality out of this discussion it might help us see what you are talking about rather than the usual victimisation of others..

Back to you later... I'm going to enjoy this.

No problem, we can discuss that later on.

Generally said, Irshad Manji and her opinion is for me not acceptable...not only because she is a lesbian and a radical feminist, but of many other reasons, too. Some are listed in my reply. The list is not complete however.

Acceptable for me is any form of discussion about the situation in the Thai Muslim areas....to keep this subject related to Thailand, which is also my favorite topic.

I myself care very litte about Arab Moslems, Israel, the Jews....and such stuff.

Generally I think, it is very important to separate what is Islamic religion, and what are Arab customs, which are claiming rights out like if it would be a part of the Koran.

Important is to make it clear to Muslims, that religion cannot serve to be an excuse for all and everything, for the reason to gain advantages or to justify criminal actions against non-Muslims.

One main point in my argumentation was always, if you read back some of these threads here, that all and everything, which is radical, must be removed...

This includes hardliners-radical Arab teachers and their arguments - (they should be deported from South Thailand), it includes however also Irshad Manji, a questionable radical herself on the other side of the BRIDGE .. such people do not produce any useable climate for what I would call it a BRIDGE, for a useful dialog...

-----

OK, let us first discuss the pact of Umar, which is not sexuality related....and let it compare with pacts by Christians in their areas and how they treated the non-Christians.....

Have a good trip!

Johann

[stroll]

Is the pact of Umar Thailand related?

I think any religion, or institutionalised set of believes can be used or abused by powerful despots or governments to justify their doings, which usually have little to do with religion.

Buddhism, I would think, doesn't easily lend itself to justify 'holy wars', no bonus points for such activities there. Of course people who call themselves Buddhist aren't better than anybody else, just because they claim to follow this believe. That goes for other believe systems as well.

As regards radicals, Muslim fundamentalists, separatists, Marxists, radical feminists etc., I think they have a very important role in society.

They bring controversial issues to attention, often speaking up for those at a disadvantage, in such a way that it is hard to ignore.

The more they are being shouted down, imprisoned, gunned down, the more radical they become.

After several generations of fruitless arguing, there will be some people resorting to violence to make their voices heard...

I am not justifying violence, but I am asking: How come it went this far?

And what can be said and done to deescalate the situation, rather than do what caused the problems to start with: suppress and stifle.

[GuestHouse]

Johan，

I am away from home and my books （I‘m in China） so I can’t check references but let me ask you a couple of questions。

With reference to the forced conversion of ’Pagans‘ that you mentioned and in agreement with keeping this on topic，

’Pagans‘ correct me if I am wrong are non believers in the one God/Alah/Jehovah， and in particular those non believers in this one god who worhsip images。

This raises a bit of a worry with respect to Muslims and Buddhists。

With respect to removing the influence of Arabs from Islam as practiced outside of S。A。 and hence by defintion in Thailand，is this not a central tenant of Irshad Manji’s book？

It seems you do hold some common ground with her， despite her lesbian credentials。

Which incidentaly， I will say again， are irrelevent to her ability to put forward a reasoned argument。

I think before attacking her you might read up on the history of Christian Reformation。 The arguments used against Manji （and the people‘s whos work she has based her book on） are no different than those aimed at the people who challenged the Catholic Church’s power and （domination of the Christian docterine by means not much differnt from those currently being used by the Muslim ’Right‘。

[Yohan]

1-

Is the pact of Umar Thailand related?

2-

I am not justifying violence, but I am asking: How come it went this far?

The very last country, which used the pact of umar was Yemen, I think abolished 1962 when military took over... not so long time ago.

Is the pact of Umar Thailand related?

Somehow yes, the pact of umar made always sense and was used for many areas many times, when Muslims were the winner of a war....it regulated over centuries, how to treat, how to regulate the occupied areas, how to avoid massakers. It also offered a chance for the loser of the war to regain freedom, when converting to Islam.

South Thailand is a significant borderline between Buddhists and Moslems, and it is one of the places, where the Muslims were not the winner, but losers of the wars. The Buddhist Thai invaded that area, and became even international famous by the British (especially because of Osborn 1838), who made reports about their cruelty and torture of prisoners and victims.

I wonder, if the Moslems were the winner, if there might be an pact of umar in Thailand?

Malaysia for itself has something like the pact of Umar in use even now, by using the Bumiputra rules, reserving some special rights only for ethnic Malays (Moslems), and offers the others to convert to Islam....

Violence: How come it went this far.....

My opinion is, that violence is a form of a reply of a radical against a radical.....

So we have to remove any radicals, in South Thailand and anywhere else, Islam related or otherwise related....

This is only MY opinion....

Johann

[Yohan]

1-

’Pagans‘ correct me if I am wrong are non believers in the one God/Alah/Jehovah， and in particular those non believers in this one god who worhsip images。

This raises a bit of a worry with respect to Muslims and Buddhists。

2-

With respect to removing the influence of Arabs from Islam as practiced outside of S。A。 and hence by defintion in Thailand，is this not a central tenant of Irshad Manji’s book？

It seems you do hold some common ground with her.....

Hi, Guesthouse,

1-

Yes, your definition is correct

Muslims are considering Hindu (a big problem in India) and Buddhists (yes, related even to Southern Thailand) as pagans.

Either they convert to Islam or they must be killed .....

These conflicts like at the Indian border, or Thailand border are much more dangerous, than religious conflicts between Christians and Arabs.

Christians and Jews are considered as inferior, but Muslims accept them as they believe in one God, and their Bible and Thora is much related to the Koran.

The Koran accepts Jesus, but not as a God...(one of the very basic differences of these 3 religions...)

Islam is a religion favoring the man, and Islam accepts that a Muslim man marries a Jew woman or a Christian woman....however not a Hindu or Buddhist woman....(such a marriage is not recommended, but permitted...)

2-

Yes, Arab elements have to be removed to see the original thinking and value of the Islam, and radical interpretation of the Koran has to be replaced by moderate interpretation....

Even Islamic teachers strongly disagree about the interpretation, as the Koran (and other old books anyway) are never clear in their meanings....

It might be used (or misused) ....just as a Muslim leader likes it....Iran is not Malaysia, and Saudi Arabia is not Morocco, and Afghanistan (even under control of the US) is not Turkey.....

The problem is, that there is no clear guideline...(like the Vatican...for the Christians)....

Yes, there are for sure some common ground with Irshad Manji in that way...however as I said, I do not like radicals....not radical Arab Islamic teachers, and not radical lesbian Muslim feminists.....

Both are not what I expect from - civilized Islam - ....may I say it that way?

Best regards,

Johann

[Yohan]

What about the <deleted> Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, 30 years war?!? Islam is not the only violent religion.

.....

The problem is that the Torah, Bible and Koran are getting OLD. They are not always clear and to the point, the Koran maybe being the most cryptic. .

You are very correct with your posting...

It is not only Islam, ALL religions have a violent history....Christianity, Hindu, and even Buddhism...

Interpretation especially out of the Koran is like a question if you ask a blind man, what is the difference between white and black (=good, right or bad, wrong in case of Islam)....

You can tell him all and everything, and there is no way for such a person (blind=totally uneducated in case of Islam) to think twice before he replies.

This makes Islam the most misused religion in this world....

It depends solely on the character and influence of the religious teacher, what he tells his believers.....

I found moderate Islamic teachings not so bad (this does not mean, that I will ever convert to Islam!) -

but radical Islam is cruel, without any pleasure of your life, and I openly reject all and everything radical....

To remove any Arab-style radical customs out of Islamic thinking might change it remarkable to the better....

I think, not even necessary to -reform- the Koran.... just keep on teaching it by using moderate interpretations...

Johann

[sonthaya]

Yohan, it's very difficult to teach them anything, they use the Koran to get what they want from common people "Allah says" I lived and worked 30 years in Muslim countries around the Middle East and North Africa.

[Yohan]

Yohan, it's very difficult to teach them anything, they use the Koran  to get what they want from common people "Allah says" I lived and worked 30 years in Muslim countries around the Middle East and North Africa.

Yes, Sonthaya, this is exactly what I wrote....misusing the Koran, and make questionable interpretations in this or that way, which is comfortable... Islam as an excuse for all and everything....

I do not care about Saudi Arabia or Iran or such Muslim countries, and I had for several years to deal with such people.

But this here is Thailand, with 93 percent Buddhist and not Muslim....

It should be easy in Thailand to respond...with the support of a huge majority....

and it should be possible to expel Arab radical teachers, who are living in Thailand with a religious affairs related visa, and who are not Thai nationals..

It should be easy, to withdraw citizenship of militant Muslims, who are dual citizenship-holders - Thai and Malaysian.

It should be easy to arrest Thai militant religious Moslems....and to shut down their so-called religious schools.

It should be easy to explain such people, that they are ethnic Malay and not Arabs... and so on....

And such Muslim minorities have to respect the majority and its culture in Thailand. And if not, they have to leave...what about immigrating into Afghanistan?

To make it clear, I am not against the moderate form of Islam in South East Asia, it was existing in this region for centuries....Also I think, South Thailand requires some special status due to the history.

However the problems are radicals....and all what is radical must be removed...

Johann

[sonthaya]

Yohan, I don't think it will be all that easy, but it would solve the problems if they could.

[Yohan]

Yohan, I don't think it will be all that easy, but it would solve the problems if they could.

It is for sure more difficult in Europe, where Christianity, Jews and Muslims are mixed. And all these religions, from Catholics to Orthodox, from Shiites to Sunni, they are all somewhat similar....all these religions originate from the same area, using the Old Testament as a fundament to their believes.

This is clearly different in Thailand....93 percent are Buddhists and the huge majority, only 6 percent are Moslem.

There is no relationship whatever between Buddhist and Islam - Buddhism is one religion and Islam is a totally different religion.

The minority has to accept this, and if not, they have to leave Thailand....

There is no common point for any negotiation between these believers.

This fact makes separation very clear and easy, these two religions do not share anything together...

A Moslem might argue with a Jew or Christian, about what is true or not, but cannot do so with a Buddhist.

Johann

[sonthaya]

Yohan, I'll stick with the Bhuddist any day, just look at what's happening in Saudi right now, they want to kill all the non believers.

[Yohan]

Yohan, I'll stick with the Bhuddist any day, just look at what's happening in Saudi right now, they want to kill all the non believers.

This is what I said exactly, in Saudi Arabia Buddhist religious activity is not allowed by law, considered as pagan religion. No religion except Islam is permitted in Saudi Arabia.

Why should Islam be allowed in Thailand, which is 93 percent Buddhist?

Order all these radicals out of Thailand, especially the foreign citizens, you will be surprised how few these are... and it will be more peaceful for sure.

Buddhism and Islam do not share anything together - (you cannot compare that with Jews and Christianity and Islam) - A clear separation, who is living where, is the best solution for South Thailand.

Make a strong guarded borderline (not really an international border) north of Pattani... and re-locate all Muslims there - and relocate the few Buddhists in the South again north of this border.

This will bring some *independence* or *autonomy* to the Southern region (82 percent Muslim and not ethnic Thais) and will keep off Islam moving to North.

they want to kill all the non believers.

1- Do not go to Saudi Arabia! You are not a Muslim, what are you doing there?

2- Do not let them into your Buddhist country....and expel any radical!

Johann

[sonthaya]

Yohan, it sounds like a great idea, but can it be done. I for one would love to see it done, it would make Thailand a safer place.

[Yohan]

I think yes, but it depends on the Thai government, they do not like to co-operate with Malaysia on this subject.

But it makes no sense to me, practically to occupy some provinces, which are 82 percent Muslims, who never mix up with the Buddhists, and maybe 15 percent Hokkien Chinese, who do not want to mix up with the Thai Chinese, and some Indians...

There should be something like a borderline - on this side, you have your own rights, and on the other side, you have nothing to say....

As I am European, you see the history, all what was divided by force, re-united like Germany, and all what was united by force, divided again, like former Yugoslavia....

In Thailand, region of the South and the borderline is quite clear...and it does not mean, that Thailand will change the territory internationally...

And as I said - in this case you need some military power - Thai government must expel any radical...radical Arab (foreigner, so what is the problem?) - criminal dual ciizenship-holders (back to Malaysia, Thai citizenship removed) ....and so on...

The important point is, that you have to offer these people, (about 1.3 million) who are totally different from the rest of Thailand a place, where they can do, what they like.

I was visiting these areas for over 30 years, most people there are not interested in radical Arab life style, are not dangerous against visiting foreigners, but do not want to have anything to do with the Thais because of their ethnic difference and history.

Johann

[sonthaya]

A very complicated issue, the Thai government don't want to give up the area, and I'm not too sure the Malaysian government want to take it over despite the Muslim majority population in the area, so what to do with it, they would not be able to run a seperate state of their own.

[Bluecat]

I don't think it's the Muslim schools who are to blame for the problems in the South, it's the Muslim fanatics who can't accept a civilized way of living.

The vast majority of muslims are kind and gentle people, I lived with them for 30 years in the Middle East.

I very much agree with you, Sonthaya.

This is why a very, very careful selection of the teachers in those Muslim schools should be made,...

[Boon Mee]

It doesn't matter whether or not the locals agree with the government in Bangkok, they still live in Thailand. If they want to be other, then move to Malaysia or Iraq!...

[Padkapow Guy]

Here is an interesting article I thought you guys might like to read.

Especially the replies. One in particular " reply #6"

Fearful Buddhists rally in Thailand's Muslim south

Reuters, by Nopporn Wong-Anan

Original Article

Posted By:Coral Pink, 6/3/2004 1:01:05 AM

NARATHIWAT, Thailand - Buddhists in Thailand's Muslim-dominated south gathered on Wednesday for a morale-boosting rally after the beheading of a Buddhist man this week stoked fears of sectarian conflict in the restive region. Tension between Muslims and Buddhists, who are the overwhelming majority in Thailand but are outnumbered four to one in the deep south, is on the rise after five months of attacks on government officials, teachers and security forces.

Comments:

Poor Buddhists. Their big holiday is Buddha's Birthday tomorrow and it is being spoiled by islamofascists who are out beheading villagers.

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Reply 1 - Posted by: pub_crawler, 6/3/2004 1:20:28 AM

I wonder how the terrorist sympathizing liberals would feel if some Islamic nut chopped off the Dalai Lama's head? Actually, I don't wonder: they would blame Bush and/or Ariel Sharon.

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Reply 2 - Posted by: reddog, 6/3/2004 1:32:29 AM

So, can one of our site-pest Islamic whacko apologists explain why the "Religion of Peace" hates Buddhists too?

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Reply 3 - Posted by: jond, 6/3/2004 2:31:21 AM

What do Hollywood's prominent Buddhists like Richard Gere have to say?

Inquiring minds want to know.

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Reply 4 - Posted by: JLoophole, 6/3/2004 6:37:42 AM

Let's see...hmmm...Well, we have the radical Buddhists who destroyed the World Trade Center --oh wait, no that was Islam. And then we have the Buddhists who strap bombs onto themselves and blow up buses --no, wait, that's Islam as well. Well, then we have the Buddhists who sawed off Nick Berg's head --oh, that was Muslim, too?

Well heck, sounds like the Muslims have the "religion of peace" trademark all sewn up!

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Reply 5 - Posted by: GOPJihad, 6/3/2004 8:29:15 AM

Even "The Land of Smiles" has to deal with these monsters.

Perhaps JF'nK and the rest of the Western Left can somehow justify the acts of the Islamofascists in Thailand (and elsewhere).

We are in the midst of World War III (or "IV" if you consider the Cold War to be "III"). The folly of those who choose to blissfully ignore the matter at hand and the threat posed to civilization, boggles the mind.

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Reply 6 - Posted by: YY4U, 6/3/2004 8:56:20 AM

Find the common denominator.

Islamics beheading Buddhists in Thailand

Islamics detonating up nightclubs in Bali

Islamics blowing up Jews in Israel.

Islamics fighting Hindus in Kashmir.

Islamics slaughtering Russian Orthodox, Athiests, Agnostics and/or Secularists in Chechyna.

Islamics murdered 3000 secularists, Athiests, Agnostics, Christians, Muslims, Jews in NYC in 2001, another 200 back in 1993.

Islamics blew up a Pan Am flight, perhaps a TWA flight carrying people of all persuasions.

Islamics are killing animists and Christians in the Sudan.

Islamics blew up trainloads of Catholic Spaniards in Spain.

Islamics are stoning female Islamics who don't toe the shiar'a line in Nigeria.

Islamics allowed Islamic teenaged girls to burn up in Saudi Arabia because the fire didn't allow them time to "cover themselves".

If your house had this many roaches, you'd cal an exterminator. Shouldn't the world do the same thing?

[Yohan]

A very complicated issue, the Thai government don't want to give up the area, and I'm not too sure the Malaysian government want to take it over despite the Muslim majority population in the area, so what to do with it, they would not be able to run a seperate state of their own.

Realistic seen, there might be a solution like that:

1- An own state is not possible, no way for many reasons, also not demanded by most groups except some fanatics....

2- Malaysia will not take over, but would agree to play a role as an advisor in many affairs, without any obligation or authorization, an international observer..

You can compare that with a lawyer, assisting his client....or a business consultant, helping to work out agreements...

3- This area will international remain Thailand, but might be an area, where some government related central administration might be given over to local leaders.

Let me give you some examples:

Is it really necessary that,

any head of village in the South is a Thai Buddhist?

any teacher in a public school is a Thai Buddhist?

any policeman, even a traffic police man, is a Thai Buddhist?

any judge in the courts is a Thai Buddhist?

any railway worker, and any postman is a Thai Buddhist?

any public holiday is a Buddhist holiday?

any public correspondance is only in Thai language?

any name of a village or region is changed in a Thai name?

and so on and so on....

Up to 82 percent are Muslim and ethnic Malay, and up to 15 percent are Hokkien Chinese, Kedah (Malaysia) related....

They are NOT native Thai speakers...

and 10 percent or so, are ethnic Thais, but brought in by the government from Central Thailand or from North Thailand....

With moderate people on all sides you will find agreements, and even not so difficult. But it takes time and patience.....

Malaysia has similar agreements with the local Chinese, and Indians who do not hold full rights like the Ethnic Malay - Moslems...it is race-related, and there are some tensions between the groups, but it works.....

Might work similar in the South Thai region.

Johann

[Yohan]

Fearful Buddhists rally in Thailand's Muslim south

Reuters, by Nopporn Wong-Anan

Original Article

Posted By:Coral Pink, 6/3/2004 1:01:05 AM

NARATHIWAT, Thailand - Buddhists in Thailand's Muslim-dominated south gathered on Wednesday for a morale-boosting rally after the beheading of a Buddhist man this week stoked fears of sectarian conflict in the restive region. Tension between Muslims and Buddhists, who are the overwhelming majority in Thailand but are outnumbered four to one in the deep south, is on the rise after five months of attacks on government officials, teachers and security forces. 

Comments:

Poor Buddhists. Their big holiday is Buddha's Birthday tomorrow and it is being spoiled by islamofascists who are out beheading villagers. 

---------------------------------------------------------------

Reply 6 - Posted by: YY4U, 6/3/2004 8:56:20 AM

Find the common denominator.

Islamics beheading Buddhists in Thailand

Islamics detonating up nightclubs in Bali

Islamics blowing up Jews in Israel.

Islamics fighting Hindus in Kashmir.

Islamics slaughtering Russian Orthodox, Athiests, Agnostics and/or Secularists in Chechyna.

Islamics murdered 3000 secularists, Athiests, Agnostics, Christians, Muslims, Jews in NYC in 2001, another 200 back in 1993.

Islamics blew up a Pan Am flight, perhaps a TWA flight carrying people of all persuasions.

Islamics are killing animists and Christians in the Sudan.

Islamics blew up trainloads of Catholic Spaniards in Spain.

Islamics are stoning female Islamics who don't toe the shiar'a line in Nigeria.

Islamics allowed Islamic teenaged girls to burn up in Saudi Arabia because the fire didn't allow them time to "cover themselves".

If your house had this many roaches, you'd cal an exterminator. Shouldn't the world do the same thing?

Thank you to point out one fact:

Muslims and Buddhists, who are the overwhelming majority in Thailand but are outnumbered four to one in the deep south.......

attacks on government officials, teachers and security forces........

Question: Who replaced the governement officials, teachers and security forces in South Thailand with Thai Buddhists from Central and North Thailand?

The people there, the overwhelming majority do not want them.....

-----------------

Quite single-sided, that comment called reply 6,

Did not mention IRAQ, and did not mention AFGHANISTAN, and not PALESTINA and reading some recent newspapers about torture, rape, sexual misuse and killings and pedophil clerics make me feeling, American Christianity is not much better than the Moslems....

If your house had this many roaches, you'd cal an exterminator. Shouldn't the world do the same thing?

Correct, America Bashing is totally in....from Canada to Korea and from China to France, and these are not Islamic countries....

Johann

[Boon Mee]

Right...what goes around, comes around and those southern states will remain dirt-poor so long as the local governments are dominated by the Islamos. The Thai Army can only do so much...

[Yohan]

Right...what goes around, comes around and those southern states will remain dirt-poor so long as the local governments are dominated by the Islamos. The Thai Army can only do so much...

But the local governments of the Southern Thailand Muslim provinces are not dominated by Muslims.

Moderate Muslims were replaced by Thai Buddhists, who were moved into South by the Thai government during the last 2-3 years from Central and Northern Thailand.

This is one reason for all these troubles now in the South.

Johann