Parmesan Cheese? I don't think so.

[KneeDeep]

11 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

If you did you would know that SarVecchio is not a copy of Grana Padano and tastes nothing like it.  Just to recap.  You evaluated Redwood Farms Parmesan cheese and have never tasted it and SarVecchio and never tasted it. 

 

 

How would you know? ? Which Grana Padano Riserva have you tried?

 

Seriously friend, please stop. It's hurting me to see you punch drunk. I'm sure many others here are feeling your pain.

 

Let me explain a simple fact to you. SarVecchio cheese is made from pasteurised milk. Parmigiano-Reggiano is made from unpasteurised milk.

 

So the products are dissimilar.

 

Please...take a rest.

 

[Shouldhaveknownbetter]

3 hours ago, xylophone said:

There were posters who were stating that cheese with that name made in the USA was as good as the original and I think that's what he was aiming his posts at.

 

There are many cheese types replicated around the world and to be honest I've not tasted one as good or better than the originals on any occasion.

 

Name the posters.  Nobody claimed that American Parmesan was as good as Parmigiano.  Just one poster started calling all American cheese crap and some of us just wanted to say that some American Cheese was good not as good as original but good.

[marcusarelus]

5 minutes ago, KneeDeep said:

How would you know? ? Which Grana Padano Riserva have you tried?

 

Seriously friend, please stop. It's hurting me to see you punch drunk. I'm sure many others here are feeling your pain.

 

Let me explain a simple fact to you. SarVecchio cheese is made from pasteurised milk. Parmigiano-Reggiano is made from unpasteurised milk.

 

So the products are dissimilar.

 

Please...take a rest.

 

I eat Parmigiano-Reggiano. Created by the Cistercian monks of Chiaravalle in the 12th century, it is still made throughout the Po River Valley in northeastern Italy which is available in Thailand.  Grana Padano (granted DOP in 1996) is trying to compete with Parmigiano-Reggiano.

Edited September 14, 2018 by marcusarelus

[duanebigsby]

I'm halfway between kneedeep and marcus on this topic.

 

I don't believe in order for something to be called "Parmesan" it had to come from a little Italian valley, with the right cows eating the right forage and breathing the sacred air.

 

North America is a land of immigrants who brought food making, wine making.  and beer making skills with them. They tried to recreate what they had left behind with the ingredients they had at hand..

 

As with English language, the food and drink evolved. It became North American.

 

Canadian cheddar is different than English cheddar. Nothing right nor wrong about it. But to suggest it's not cheddar, I think is wrong.

It's up to the consumer to decide if it's better or worse. Kneedeep suggests it's always worse because it's not "real'" and from some specific valley.

 

Another example is Mexican food in USA. It's not authentic as it's evolved into either Tex-Mex or California-Mex. I much prefer that than authentic Mexican food. It's called fusion.

 

Every country in the world has a generic lager based loosely on Pilsner Urquel.  

 

Some of them come close, but they're all different.

 

[KneeDeep]

7 minutes ago, Shouldhaveknownbetter said:

Name the posters.  Nobody claimed that American Parmesan was as good as Parmigiano.  Just one poster started calling all American cheese crap and some of us just wanted to say that some American Cheese was good not as good as original but good.

 

MA for one.

I'm guessing xylophone did not want to name him for fear of pushing MA over the edge.

For the same reason, I don't want to give the impression that he is being ganged up on.

No matter how reasonable the argument, MA just seems to want to argue over every point.

I stated very early in the thread that I am sure there are producers that care about good foodstuffs in the USA. But that Redwood Farms product is not it. Perhaps just got lost in the noise.

 

[KneeDeep]

5 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I eat Parmigiano-Reggiano. Created by the Cistercian monks of Chiaravalle in the 12th century, it is still made throughout the Po River Valley in northeastern Italy which is available in Thailand.  Grana Padano (granted DOP in 1996) is trying to compete with Parmigiano-Reggiano.

 

 

Still copying and pasting I see ?

C'mon. Just stop, eh?

[KneeDeep]

4 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

I'm halfway between kneedeep and marcus on this topic.

 

I don't believe in order for something to be called "Parmesan" it had to come from a little Italian valley, with the right cows eating the right forage and breathing the sacred air.

 

North America is a land of immigrants who brought food making, wine making.  and beer making skills with them. They tried to recreate what they had left behind with the ingredients they had at hand..

 

As with English language, the food and drink evolved. It became North American.

 

Canadian cheddar is different than English cheddar. Nothing right nor wrong about it. But to suggest it's not cheddar, I think is wrong.

It's up to the consumer to decide if it's better or worse. Kneedeep suggests it's always worse because it's not "real'" and from some specific valley.

 

Another example is Mexican food in USA. It's not authentic as it's evolved into either Tex-Mex or California-Mex. I much prefer that than authentic Mexican food. It's called fusion.

 

Every country in the world has a generic lager based loosely on Pilsner Urquel.  

 

Some of them come close, but they're all different.

 

 

Actually the argument has never been about regions, but misleading labels and sales gimmicks.

 

Calling every hard cheese Parmesan is misleading to the US consumer and everyone else. Especially when the corporations can lobby the government to reduce the maturing time to six months and still call it Parmesan.

 

So you can end up with something that is just a completely unrelated dried hard cheese. Put in a container, fill it out by more than a third with cellulose and food starch and then call it a "Parmesan Cheese Blend"? It's a travesty.

 

So my point was always the low standards set in the USA for certain food products.

Some took it as being anti-American and took to posting all kinds of misinformation, leading the post on to another path.

 

The Redwood Farms product has nothing to do with any kind of quality Italian hard cheese..

[marcusarelus]

14 minutes ago, KneeDeep said:

 

MA for one.

I'm guessing xylophone did not want to name him for fear of pushing MA over the edge.

For the same reason, I don't want to give the impression that he is being ganged up on.

No matter how reasonable the argument, MA just seems to want to argue over every point.

I stated very early in the thread that I am sure there are producers that care about good foodstuffs in the USA. But that Redwood Farms product is not it. Perhaps just got lost in the noise.

I did not.  There is a quote function.  Feel free to use it.  Good American cheese is as good as good European cheese.  I would never say good Thai beer is as good as British beer.  Or good Thai beer is as good as good German beer.  Your problem is you don't know anything about cheese.  Not my fault. 

[marcusarelus]

22 minutes ago, KneeDeep said:

Still copying and pasting I see ?

C'mon. Just stop, eh?

All of the news articles on this forum are cut and pasted.  Most posters use cut and paste rather than ranting nonsense as cut and paste is a reputable way to prove a point which I do and you don't. I actually buy cheese and not just dream about it.  

Parmiggiano Reggiano medium aged 24 months

Product code: T26924

 

Although it is understandable because you have never tasted products that you are swearing are awful. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by marcusarelus

[Shouldhaveknownbetter]

7 hours ago, xylophone said:

I believe I know where you're coming from with this and I have to agree with what you have posted.

 

As my hobby is wine, I liken it to the French term "terroir" which used to be ridiculed by some producers from other countries as to something made up to try and make French wines that little bit more "special". And they basically were saying that anywhere in the world can produce the same wines with the same quality and same characteristics.

 

However now that science has moved on, and a better understanding has developed, it's quite obvious that the French had something with their description and it meant more than just soil – – it was a combination of microclimates, farming practices, type and age of the vine, minerals in the soil and so on, and it was that which gave the wine its particular regional characteristic, so to say that an exact same wine could be produced in, say California for example, is wrong.

 

Indeed fine wines can be made in California, but even if the grapes are similar/the same, the original in France is still the benchmark.

 

And I believe that's what you're trying to say with your Parmesan argument, because it's a combination of factors which make the cheese what it is, not just the producer of it, and it is country/region specific because of a similar combination to that which I've described in my wine analogy

A little different situation.  In the wine industry, the French name their wine by region, Bordauex, Rhone, etc.  In the US wine is labeled by grape variety, Cabernet, Pinot Noir. 

[xylophone]

25 minutes ago, KneeDeep said:

 

MA for one.

I'm guessing xylophone did not want to name him for fear of pushing MA over the edge.

For the same reason, I don't want to give the impression that he is being ganged up on.

No matter how reasonable the argument, MA just seems to want to argue over every point.

I stated very early in the thread that I am sure there are producers that care about good foodstuffs in the USA. But that Redwood Farms product is not it. Perhaps just got lost in the noise.

 

I made my point a few posts ago giving a wine analogy, and agreeing with you in the main and really didn't want to keep posting on this...…….so I won't!!

 

 

[duanebigsby]

7 minutes ago, KneeDeep said:

 

Actually the argument has never been about regions, but misleading labels and sales gimmicks.

 

Calling every hard cheese Parmesan is misleading to the US consumer and everyone else. Especially when the corporations can lobby the government to reduce the maturing time to six months and still call it Parmesan.

 

So you can end up with something that is just a completely unrelated dried hard cheese. Put in a container, fill it out by more than a third with cellulose and food starch and then call it a "Parmesan Cheese Blend"? It's a travesty.

 

So my point was always the low standards set in the USA for certain food products.

Some took it as being anti-American and took to posting all kinds of misinformation, leading the post on to another path.

 

The Redwood Farms product has nothing to do with any kind of quality Italian hard cheese..

 

10 minutes ago, KneeDeep said:

 

Actually the argument has never been about regions, but misleading labels and sales gimmicks.

 

Calling every hard cheese Parmesan is misleading to the US consumer and everyone else. Especially when the corporations can lobby the government to reduce the maturing time to six months and still call it Parmesan.

 

So you can end up with something that is just a completely unrelated dried hard cheese. Put in a container, fill it out by more than a third with cellulose and food starch and then call it a "Parmesan Cheese Blend"? It's a travesty.

 

So my point was always the low standards set in the USA for certain food products.

Some took it as being anti-American and took to posting all kinds of misinformation, leading the post on to another path.

 

The Redwood Farms product has nothing to do with any kind of quality Italian hard cheese..

You did start off with regions, but I fully agree with US low standards.

 

Anything labelled Parmesan in a shaker needs to be suspect.

 

I'm sorry for misreading, but your early posts did seem anti- American.

 

I realize that you're not anti-US but anti <deleted> food.

[xylophone]

10 minutes ago, Shouldhaveknownbetter said:

A little different situation.  In the wine industry, the French name their wine by region, Bordauex, Rhone, etc.  In the US wine is labeled by grape variety, Cabernet, Pinot Noir. 

You missed my underlying point, but never mind I'm out of here...……..better things to do!

[Shouldhaveknownbetter]

2 hours ago, KneeDeep said:

 

...and so they should.

MA has got it all wrong. It's nothing to do with being anti the American people, but to open their eyes to what they are eating and what their corporations and government are allowing them to eat.

 

I honestly have never seen so much bad food as when I visited the USA. Chorizo that is not Chorizo, fake cheese.... Acclaimed restaurants that produced a poor copy of the dishes they claimed to recreate.

The problem is that if you haven't travelled and don't know better, you'll think that is how it is supposed to be.

That doesn't mean I had only bad food in the USA. There are definitely restaurants to which I would return and supermarket like Wholefoods obviously have raised the bar.

But not everyone can afford to shop in Wholefoods. 

Instead of acknowledging at least some of my points might be correct, MA prefers to take a polarised stance, making himself look ridiculous. Constantly posting falsehoods with his misleading cutting and pasting.

 

And native English food is so tasty ?

[Stocky]

On 9/11/2018 at 3:18 AM, Nyezhov said:

Bet our cheese would be tasty if thats all you have...hey wait that happens every once in a while, Euros begging for Kraft cheese after they screw up the world for a few years and expect us to clean up. ?

 

Snobs. Ungrateful cheese eating surernder monkeys all. Don, don help, Vlad is invading waaaaaah.

????????????

 

I like Polish Cheese myself. And Hungarian Cheese. And...Swiss!!!!!!

 

Stilton is OK too. 

 

Wonder how many folks can rtell the difference between real and knockoff.

 

Make America grate again.

[KneeDeep]

11 minutes ago, Shouldhaveknownbetter said:

And native English food is so tasty ?

 

If produced with quality ingredients, yes. 

 

But we aren't discussing 'native' British foods, now are we?

[Cletus]

The only good one is the original made in Italy, very easy to get fooled around if you don't know how the original package and trademark  look like. Grana Padano is also a very good one if original. It's the same of Parmigiano Reggiano, just shorter seasoning.

[Shouldhaveknownbetter]

39 minutes ago, KneeDeep said:

 

If produced with quality ingredients, yes. 

 

But we aren't discussing 'native' British foods, now are we?

Well,  just a while back you mentioned again how crappy American food was and I was wondering what you were comparing it to.  I know that French and Italian is much better, I still remember some of the meals I had.  

[KneeDeep]

Just now, Shouldhaveknownbetter said:

Well,  just a while back you mentioned again how crappy American food was and I was wondering what you were comparing it to.  I know that French and Italian is much better, I still remember some of the meals I had.  

 

You misunderstood. 

Good American food is good. Crap American food is crap.

I was just surprised at the amount of relatively poor quality foodstuffs that I saw for sale.

But I also enjoyed some tasty meals. Even at simple Mexican style cafes.

The Redwood Farms product is just an example of advertising over substance.

So I highlighted that there are lower standards set in some industries.

Obviously someone took those statements as an affront. Perhaps I was too blunt in putting my point over originally.

[Shouldhaveknownbetter]

36 minutes ago, KneeDeep said:

 

You misunderstood. 

Good American food is good. Crap American food is crap.

I was just surprised at the amount of relatively poor quality foodstuffs that I saw for sale.

But I also enjoyed some tasty meals. Even at simple Mexican style cafes.

The Redwood Farms product is just an example of advertising over substance.

So I highlighted that there are lower standards set in some industries.

Obviously someone took those statements as an affront. Perhaps I was too blunt in putting my point over originally.

Understand, no problem.  You are correct, try not to be so blunt, please.

[KneeDeep]

55 minutes ago, Shouldhaveknownbetter said:

Understand, no problem.  You are correct, try not to be so blunt, please.

 

I forget that you guys are so...sensitive. ?

[marcusarelus]

3 minutes ago, KneeDeep said:

 

I forget that you guys are so...sensitive. ?

Americans are so used to eating crap, that they actually think that it is good.
#52

We just won't have American crap in ours.  
#91

We can buy everything and more in the UK(apart from American crap that is banned in Europe).

#118

The fact that the Europeans are resisting the worst of the American excesses is to be commended

#172

 

I'll try and be more tolerant.

 

[KneeDeep]

4 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Americans are so used to eating crap, that they actually think that it is good.
#52

We just won't have American crap in ours.  
#91

We can buy everything and more in the UK(apart from American crap that is banned in Europe).

#118

The fact that the Europeans are resisting the worst of the American excesses is to be commended

#172

 

I'll try and be more tolerant.

 

 

Try to ....

 

Stop mangling our language. ?

 

Seriously though, I could have worded it more nicely. But filling out dried hard cheese with cellulose and starch is just 'beyond the pale'.

Calling it Parmesan is bordering on criminality.

[The manic]

17 hours ago, Speedhump said:

I would rather eat any US or other parmesan-style product (even containing cellulose and other filler) than contribute to the outright animal cruelty that Italian cows are subjected to while producing this milk. You only have to Google "parmesan grano padano cruelty" to educate yourselves. I stopped buying blocks of the stuff a while back. I even used to eat it sliced on its own, not just on food. Please think about it. The terrible treatment of these cows cannot even be compared to the sad way in which most milk is mass-produced around the world (yes, we shut our eyes to a lot, but some things are too inhumane to ignore). ?

USA beef products are banned in the EU. Google 'American Beef + Cruelty' Growth Hormone + Anti biotic poisoning.  Read 'The Jungle' by Upton Sinclair.

[The manic]

6 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Americans are so used to eating crap, that they actually think that it is good.
#52

We just won't have American crap in ours.  
#91

We can buy everything and more in the UK(apart from American crap that is banned in Europe).

#118

The fact that the Europeans are resisting the worst of the American excesses is to be commended

#172

 

I'll try and be more tolerant.

 

Here here. I met Americans who had never tasted Fresh Milk, even pasteurized! Only vile long life Sterilized milk. However, there is great real good in America but the junk food septics on this forum dont represent it..

[marcusarelus]

5 hours ago, KneeDeep said:

 

Try to ....

 

Stop mangling our language. ?

 

Seriously though, I could have worded it more nicely. But filling out dried hard cheese with cellulose and starch is just 'beyond the pale'.

Calling it Parmesan is bordering on criminality.

EU regulations.

 

https://www.specialtyfoodingredients.eu/ingredients-and-benefits/group/anti-caking-agents

 

E 460 - Cellulose

In: Anti-caking agents , Bulking agents , Gelling agents , Stabilizers , Thickeners , Carriers.

 

If figures you are a grammar cop too. 

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by marcusarelus

[Nyezhov]

5 hours ago, The manic said:

USA beef products are banned in the EU. Google 'American Beef + Cruelty' Growth Hormone + Anti biotic poisoning.  Read 'The Jungle' by Upton Sinclair.

Dude, the Jungle was written about a hundred years ago. 

[xylophone]

13 hours ago, Shouldhaveknownbetter said:

A little different situation.  In the wine industry, the French name their wine by region, Bordauex, Rhone, etc.  In the US wine is labeled by grape variety, Cabernet, Pinot Noir. 

Correction...…...not too many years ago the US produced and sold "Champagne", "White Burgundy", "Burgundy", "Chablis" and so on until the "Protected Designation of Origin" rules came into being. So labelling by varietals then became the norm.

 

However even now in my local Big C one can buy a litre carafe of Paul Masson Burgundy...…..and it's not the same!!

 

Anyway off topic so back on to Parmesan cheese! 

[KneeDeep]

12 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

EU regulations.

 

https://www.specialtyfoodingredients.eu/ingredients-and-benefits/group/anti-caking-agents

 

E 460 - Cellulose

In: Anti-caking agents , Bulking agents , Gelling agents , Stabilizers , Thickeners , Carriers.

 

If figures you are a grammar cop too. 

 

 

It, not if.

 

You get so excited, that you make mistakes in the only part of your post that isn't a cut and paste.

 

So what is the purpose of your link? To let us know that E460 is categorised as an "Anti-caking agent , Bulking agent , Gelling agent , Stabiliser , Thickener , Carrier" ?

We already know.

Any reason why you omitted E 460(i), E 460(ii), E 461, E 462, E 463, E 464, E 465, E 466, E 468 and E 469? 

 

But what has this to do with anything? It is not in the UK sold grated hard cheese product, but it is, together with food starch, in the USA product.

Why is it there? It is not required. It is not in the UK sold product.

It's there to save the US company having to put more dried grated hard cheese in the carton. 

What worse is that you actually commended the product. Shattering your credibility here once and for all.

 

It seems you like being punch drunk. You keep coming back for more.

[KneeDeep]

11 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Dude, the Jungle was written about a hundred years ago. 

 

So show us the updated legislation.