How do people get anything done with all this kreng jai?

[Csaw]

9 hours ago, Russell17au said:

The way that I see it is that you were not happy in your home country and you chose to come here and live but now you are not happy here, instead of whinging and whining about things here go and find somewhere to live where you will be happy. It is all about YOUR choice and YOUR happiness. If you are not happy with something in your life then change it, whether it be where you live, your job, your clothes, you are the one that makes these choices. So get on with your life where you are happy, no one is forcing you to live here

Umm... yeah, ok. So, back to the question...How do people get anything done with all this kreng jai?

[The manic]

17 hours ago, connda said:

Welcome to Thailand.  Your observation explains why the Thai educational system is such a mess. 

 

Don't question; don't criticize; don't think critically.  Conform. 

 

It doesn't make for a resilient educational system but it works wonders to indoctrinate the masses.

Unlike the Americans?  

[The manic]

20 minutes ago, Csaw said:

Umm... yeah, ok. So, back to the question...How do people get anything done with all this kreng jai?

I get everything done that I need to get done. How has Kreng Jai stopped you doing anything? I am baffled.

Edited October 6, 2018 by The manic

[The manic]

17 hours ago, leither69 said:

That's because your brainwashed to accept the norm here, thinkers anywhere question and develop!! Telling people to go home indicates you are a sheep in a flock and don't think for yourself, and In turn spout crass comments to enable you to feel lmportant in a limited environment. Bahhh

Go home.  You will be happier there. 

[marcusarelus]

18 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Unfortunately, there are a minority, but still many, members of the "if you don't like it go home"

brigade here on Thaivisa.

And then there is the "After you leave and go home for god's sake stop posting here brigade."

[mauGR1]

20 hours ago, khunPer said:

There is an explanation of "kreng jai" here: "Demystifying Kreng Jai".

 

 

I missed an explanation of "Kreng jai" in the otherwise excellent book about Thai culture for foreigners: "Thailand Fewer"...????

 

After many years, i'm still working on the subtleties of " Kreng Jai".

Thanks for posting the link, although it doesn't fully satisfy my curiosity.

In my understanding, as a foreigner, i am expected to "Kreng Jai" everyone and everything.

On the contrary, as a foreigner, unless i am very rich and well connected, i can't expect any " Kreng Jai".

Pls, someone correct me if i'm wrong.

[sawadeeken]

20 hours ago, khunPer said:

 

•  

Posted 19 hours ago

There is an explanation of "kreng jai" here: "Demystifying Kreng Jai".

 

  Quote

Kreng Jai, which literally means “awe of heart” but can best be translated into “consideration”, is a cause of much frustration for foreigners who live in Thailand or foreigners with Thai partners. ... Kreng Jai might affect the lives of guileless foreigners living in Thailand in a number of ways.

 

I missed an explanation of "Kreng jai" in the otherwise excellent book about Thai culture for foreigners: "Thailand Fewer"...????

 

I must say that "awe of heart" is vague and fails to be explain 'Kreng jai' well....

I have had many discussions with Thais about it......

Firstly, the word "Kreng jai" has mostly, if not all.... GOOD INTENT (not ill-intent)

Secondly, A person who is "Kreng jai" is trying very hard to NOT offernd or injure anybody else.... although it 'could happen' but is not their intent to hurt...

It takes much association and observation with Thai people to Understand their sometime 'non-comittal' acts of being "Kreng jai"........ After 35 plus years loving the "Kreng jai" Thai folks...  I must say... That i like the "Kreng jai" folks 100% more than I like their 'OPPOSITES'......

My personal definition of "Kreng jai" is something like above post but I will add that it goes beyoud being considerate and includes being 'courteous to others' and 'thoughtful of others' and i will suggest that if it has 'negative effects' as in the OP........ Then it either is not "Kreng jai".... OR..... the act of being "Kreng jai" did not have 'ill-intent'

I prefer TRULY "Kreng jai" Thai friends 'well-ahead' of their OPPOSITS........

 

[sawadeeken]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

After many years, i'm still working on the subtleties of " Kreng Jai".

Thanks for posting the link, although it doesn't fully satisfy my curiosity.

In my understanding, as a foreigner, i am expected to "Kreng Jai" everyone and everything.

On the contrary, as a foreigner, unless i am very rich and well connected, i can't expect any " Kreng Jai".

Pls, someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Possibly consider this..... If they are "Kreng jai" they will 'try very hard' to NOT offend you, step-on-your-toes, hurt your feelings, or injure you in the slightest.....

Sometimes their being "Kreng jai" may dissapoint you but only when they didn't understand your 'desire' or possibly unsure of your 'desire' and even some cases of them not approving of your 'desire' (you may interchange 'desire' with 'request' ---- verbal or otherwise 'request')

But  the bottom line is that a person who is "Kreng jai" isn't having any 'ILL-INTENT' or wanting to 'hurt' you.......... On the other-hand if they did have ill-intent...... THEN they are not being "Kreng jai"..........

Edited to add..... Jai Dom (translated as 'black-heart' may well fit those people with 'ill-intent'.....

Edited October 7, 2018 by sawadeeken
add a line

[mauGR1]

15 minutes ago, sawadeeken said:

Possibly consider this..... If they are "Kreng jai" they will 'try very hard' to NOT offend you, step-on-your-toes, hurt your feelings, or injure you in the slightest.....

Sometimes their being "Kreng jai" may dissapoint you but only when they didn't understand your 'desire' or possibly unsure of your 'desire' and even some cases of them not approving of your 'desire' (you may interchange 'desire' with 'request' ---- verbal or otherwise 'request')

But  the bottom line is that a person who is "Kreng jai" isn't having any 'ILL-INTENT' or wanting to 'hurt' you.......... On the other-hand if they did have ill-intent...... THEN they are not being "Kreng jai"..........

Yes, of course i had no doubt about the good intentions of the " Kreng Jai", but thanks for explaining that, as it seems it's not clear for everyone here.

If you look at my previous post, i was just more or less subtly suggesting that, people high on the social ladder are not expected to " Kreng Jai " to inferiors, while inferiors must be very careful when dealing with the formers.

That said, as a foreigner, i often have doubts on who is inferior and who is superior, but i noticed that in recent years, after the tourist boom of the 90s, us foreigners are less respected ( or Kreng Jai-ed )than before.

Edited October 7, 2018 by mauGR1

[sawadeeken]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

On the contrary, as a foreigner, unless i am very rich and well connected, i can't expect any " Kreng Jai".

Actually your money isn't normally considered....

"Kreng jai" is a genuine part of their person.... IF THEY are really "Kreng jai".....

If consideration of money then it's not truly "Kreng jai".......

example..... You 'don't often' see a Thai Cop' that is "Kreng jai" (although there are some)

[sawadeeken]

7 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

 

That said, as a foreigner, i often have doubts on who is inferior and who is superior, but i noticed that in recent years, after the tourist boom of the 90s, us foreigners are less respected ( or Kreng Jai-ed )than before.

Yes..... Foreigners are looked at as financial 'INCOME' soooooooooo often and "Kreng jai" isn't part of that picture.........

You are correct largely about the 'HiSo' class of people.... But even them... They will still display "Kreng jai" toward older folks, family, and 'dear friends'......

I normally make it my 'personal rule' to be "Kreng jai" with most people I meet and see if it is 'returned' ....OR.... Just 'taken advantage of'.........

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, sawadeeken said:

Actually your money isn't normally considered....

"Kreng jai" is a genuine part of their person.... IF THEY are really "Kreng jai".....

If consideration of money then it's not truly "Kreng jai".......

example..... You 'don't often' see a Thai Cop' that is "Kreng jai" (although there are some)

Well, i'll give you an example of my daily life.

There is a massage shop next door to where i live. When they have a few customers, parking space is lacking, so that i have moved a few potted plants of mine to create an extra space where they can park 2 motorbikes, so that in fact i lost couple of squared meters of my space.

The manager of the shop was thankful when i did that, but later on, the staff started to drop plastic bags and other rubbish on the ground, making me feel like a idiot for helping them.

Now i am wondering if being helpful and unselfish can be perceived as weakness, but, i think i know the answer.

 

[sawadeeken]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, i'll give you an example of my daily life.

There is a massage shop next door to where i live. When they have a few customers, parking space is lacking, so that i have moved a few potted plants of mine to create an extra space where they can park 2 motorbikes, so that in fact i lost couple of squared meters of my space.

The manager of the shop was thankful when i did that, but later on, the staff started to drop plastic bags and other rubbish on the ground, making me feel like a idiot for helping them.

Now i am wondering if being helpful and unselfish can be perceived as weakness, but, i think i know the answer.

 

Let me suggest that what you did was thoughtful, considerate and courteous..... in other words "Kreng jai".........

Yours is a good example if your intent.......... Perfect...... Try to keep it up........ Hopefully it will come back to you.......

The plastic bags (and other trash) are a 'Thai way of life' and I wouldn't let it discourage me from continueing to be "Kreng jai"........

I think it is some 'thoughtless' Thais that drop their trash, not those you were good to...... Let's hope for a 'good government' soon that will teach 'their people' better than 'this' and 'past' gov'ts' have done......

We have a 'Wad of similar' trash floating out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean which come from similar sources as your trash bags....... Don't let yourself be turned sour by it.... It could be a personal LOSS of your own esteem when you let low-lifes change your world.........

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, sawadeeken said:

Let me suggest that what you did was thoughtful, considerate and courteous..... in other words "Kreng jai".........

Yours is a good example if your intent.......... Perfect...... Try to keep it up........ Hopefully it will come back to you.......

The plastic bags (and other trash) are a 'Thai way of life' and I wouldn't let it discourage me from continueing to be "Kreng jai"........

I think it is some 'thoughtless' Thais that drop their trash, not those you were good to...... Let's hope for a 'good government' soon that will teach 'their people' better than 'this' and 'past' gov'ts' have done......

We have a 'Wad of similar' trash floating out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean which come from similar sources as your trash bags....... Don't let yourself be turned sour by it.... It could be a personal LOSS of your own esteem when you let low-lifes change your world.........

Thanks mate for the kind and thoughtful words.

I agree with everything you say, from the first word to the last one.

We can and we should be kind and courteous as much as we can, without expecting anything in return, but just because it's the right thing to do.

[twig]

It seems to have been bred and beaten into them by the usual suspects to achieve obvious goals...

 

It's a worldwide phenomenon by local purveyors of the same thing under a different name...

 

It's a way of maintaining the status quo for a particular group's benefit and livelihood...

 

It's just been more successfully accomplished in Thailand, and stifled their social progress more than in other territories...

 

"Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."

- George Orwell, 1984, Chapter 7

Edited October 7, 2018 by twig
correction

[RickBradford]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

On the contrary, as a foreigner, unless i am very rich and well connected, i can't expect any " Kreng Jai".

 

Thais have a very fixed idea of 'society', family hierarchies, and other social hierarchies. That can be seen through the ubiquity of 'kinship terms' -- Thais don't tend to use neutral pronouns like 'I, you, he', but call themselves and others 'uncle', 'elder sister', 'young brother' to maintain the structures they are used to.

 

And so, 'greng jai' is part of social life, a part of the 'Thai-ness' that is often mentioned.

 

As a foreigner, you don't fit into those categories so easily, and I think that's the reason that you may not experience 'greng jai' being extended to you so much.

 

It's not just Thailand, of course - many countries round here operate on a similar basis, and make it difficult to assess a foreigner's exact status. A long-time expat in Vietnam described his status in that country as 'half God, half cretin', which illustrates the difficulty.

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, RickBradford said:

 

Thais have a very fixed idea of 'society', family hierarchies, and other social hierarchies. That can be seen through the ubiquity of 'kinship terms' -- Thais don't tend to use neutral pronouns like 'I, you, he', but call themselves and others 'uncle', 'elder sister', 'young brother' to maintain the structures they are used to.

 

And so, 'greng jai' is part of social life, a part of the 'Thai-ness' that is often mentioned.

 

As a foreigner, you don't fit into those categories so easily, and I think that's the reason that you may not experience 'greng jai' being extended to you so much.

 

It's not just Thailand, of course - many countries round here operate on a similar basis, and make it difficult to assess a foreigner's exact status. A long-time expat in Vietnam described his status in that country as 'half God, half cretin', which illustrates the difficulty.

Good post as usual RickBradford, keep them coming.

The description " half God, half cretin" made me almost spill my tea on the keyboard.

[marcusarelus]

6 minutes ago, RickBradford said:

 

Thais have a very fixed idea of 'society', family hierarchies, and other social hierarchies. That can be seen through the ubiquity of 'kinship terms' -- Thais don't tend to use neutral pronouns like 'I, you, he', but call themselves and others 'uncle', 'elder sister', 'young brother' to maintain the structures they are used to.

 

And so, 'greng jai' is part of social life, a part of the 'Thai-ness' that is often mentioned.

 

As a foreigner, you don't fit into those categories so easily, and I think that's the reason that you may not experience 'greng jai' being extended to you so much.

 

It's not just Thailand, of course - many countries round here operate on a similar basis, and make it difficult to assess a foreigner's exact status. A long-time expat in Vietnam described his status in that country as 'half God, half cretin', which illustrates the difficulty.

Exactly like Arkansas.  When I moved there from NYC I felt like half god and half cretin.  What you are describing is a farming community anyplace in the world. 

[khunPer]

3 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

After many years, i'm still working on the subtleties of " Kreng Jai".

Thanks for posting the link, although it doesn't fully satisfy my curiosity.

In my understanding, as a foreigner, i am expected to "Kreng Jai" everyone and everything.

On the contrary, as a foreigner, unless i am very rich and well connected, i can't expect any " Kreng Jai".

Pls, someone correct me if i'm wrong.

I must admit that I also was also little surprised when reading the article, and also when reading some of the posts in this thread (I've not read all 4 pages).

 

I was told by Thais that Kreng Jai merely mean kind of modesty, like when offered something you cannot accept, as it's too much; or if someone gave you something, or helped you, you must remember to politely "pay back" at some point in the future, like you are in "a kind of debt" until that happens.

 

I have experienced numerous times, that when offering a Thai or Thais something – for example small things that I easily can afford, and in farang-way-of-thinking I would never ever expect to be returned, however a "thank you" would be appreciated – they might politely refuse. When asking other Thais why, I get the answer that they are – or have – "kreng jai"...

[RickBradford]

Quote

What you are describing is a farming community anyplace in the world. 

That may or may not be true, but the whole point of 'greng jai' is that it is pervasive throughout all strata of Thai society, rural or urban, educated or not educated. It's built right into the culture, along with the need to establish hierarchies for people, who is the 'elder' or 'younger' (it may not be strictly a matter of age, but status as well.)

 

Quote

Exactly like Arkansas.  When I moved there from NYC I felt like half god and half cretin. 

 

With the best will in the world, I can only half-believe that.

[marcusarelus]

12 minutes ago, RickBradford said:

That may or may not be true, but the whole point of 'greng jai' is that it is pervasive throughout all strata of Thai society, rural or urban, educated or not educated. It's built right into the culture, along with the need to establish hierarchies for people, who is the 'elder' or 'younger' (it may not be strictly a matter of age, but status as well.)

 

 

With the best will in the world, I can only half-believe that.

I was referring to, "Thais have a very fixed idea of 'society', family hierarchies, and other social hierarchies. That can be seen through the ubiquity of 'kinship terms' -- Thais don't tend to use neutral pronouns like 'I, you, he', but call themselves and others 'uncle', 'elder sister', 'young brother' to maintain the structures they are used to."  The same in any rural agricultural community.  Dreadfully boring all they can talk about is food and relatives and the rice crop. In 2015, Arkansas farmers produced 207,550,200 bushels of rice on 1.286 million acres. That accounted for 49 percent of all the rice produced in the United States.

 

The average rice farmer in Arkansas is a clone of the average rice farmer in Issan but with a bigger wife. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by marcusarelus

[Csaw]

19 hours ago, twig said:

"Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."

- George Orwell, 1984, Chapter 7

In 1984, sure. But in a world of internet and social media...if you are not conscious, it's by choice.

[elgenon]

On 10/6/2018 at 11:05 AM, dotpoom said:

Ha! Ha!...you reminded me of something.

When I went to London for work for the first time in the mid 60's, I met and befriended a fellow Irishman (we were two Paddy's in cockney land). Then a lot of people from different parts of Europe and Africa started to come and live in England too...it was a strange time for a lot of people and some began to feel uncomfortable (including my Paddy friend).

 One night we were having a drink in a bar and we were talking about these things. Then suddenly out loud he says..."If any more foreigners come over here...I'm going back home".

A few of us burst out laughing ..he never knew what we were laughing at.

555555 That's brilliantly bad.

 

 

[elgenon]

On 10/6/2018 at 2:09 PM, KiChakayan said:

One may have all sorts of reasons to stay in Thailand. I do so too, and I claim the right to point the finger to the weaknesses of the Thai character that made this place and "underachieving country" (This is a new development class I try to sell to the World Bank). ????

 

Many Thais are painfully aware of their underachievement and some express resentment, maybe hatred at times, when our overachievement makes them lose face. What amuses me is that the Thais are now brown nosing the Chinese who are some of the worst overachievers of all. 

 

To finish, I watched "Kundun" with my wife yesterday evening and, since she is a short, sexy and clever girl, she said "Oohhh my Budha the same is happening here now"...

Thanks. But I think you missed the point.

[farq]

On 10/6/2018 at 11:53 AM, AhFarangJa said:

Of course it is.....Sharks / Scams / Skimming / Swindle / Sting / Shakedown / Sham / Shady Deals / Sharp Practice.........

But........For me the positives far outway the negatives once you learn to go with the flow. When I come back to the village near Surin the S simply stands for SMILES, Smiles from the locals, Smiles from the shopkeepers, Smiles from the children......Priceless..... I truly hope you find your way here....

Like you, I am always lad to get back to my village outside Chiang Rai for the very same reasons! Unfortunately some forget the shit that went on where they came from!

[marko kok prong]

Personaly i couldn't give a fig about any of their stupid notions,i would not be here if i could be elsewhere,except for circumstance would have been far better off if had been colonised,but no one wanted them.