Does A B Ed Guarantee A Good Teacher?

[DaiHard]

I've been looking at the various threads on qualifications and I am under the impression that what the authorities are looking for are people with a B Ed and I'm not sure why.

I did the 'traditional' degree + PGCE route (I'm UK based at present) and at one point I ended up teaching on a B Ed course (the UK government decided all teachers needed to learn Windows - I'd have preferred they all learned Linux personally  but I digress) and I found that they were good teachers but their subject knowledge was not as good as the BA/PGCE teachers (and they finished in 3 years rather than 4) but as most of them were destined (so I was told) to teach in primary schools subject knowledge wasn't important. So why the insistence on the B Ed in Thailand?

Is it on the basis of a good teacher can teach anything and as long as they are 2 pages ahead of their students in the book it is ok?

And on the subject of qualifications why can't a group of people get together and form a teacher training college in LOS? I know my Alma Mater (A major UK University - NOT an ex poly) would be happy to franchise the course (which would be 2 years in service, i.e part time and at weekends whilst still working) and the participant would end up with an internationally recognised qualification (PGCE or Cert Ed for those without a degree) that they could use anywhere. The Cert Ed can be used without a degree in UK schools so it *should* be acceptable in Thailand. What do you think?

[Jookster]

From where have you got the impression or information that a B Ed is a necessity in Thailand?

[DaiHard]

From where have you got the impression or information that a B Ed is a necessity in Thailand?

It was on Ajarn as it happens, am I wrong?

[Jookster]

Where on the site does it say that?

Cheers

[Jookster]

Because if it does I disagree!

Also the problem with the Cert Ed or PGCE in Thailand for one thing, would be where would you do the teaching practice? Government schools... um I don't think so. International Schools or Private Schools, well why should they!

[Ijustwannateach]

I've edited this post because I realised the OP was arguing a different thing than I supposed.

It's been awhile since the old chestnut re. Ed. degrees has raised its hoary head. I suppose I should allow some discussion of it, but it has this tendency to go to silly extremes: "if you wanted a brain surgeon to do experimental surgery, wouldn't you want to hire someone with a degree in experimental surgery?" Well, yes- but that means I certainly wouldn't hire a surgeon whose speciality was the education of medicine.

Part of the problem is that the question isn't explicit enough. Is it better to have a B.Ed IN THAILAND for teaching TEFL? for teaching rocket science? For teaching native-speaking level high school English? You could speculate on different answers for all three of those.

I agree with various posters that the B.Ed. is NOT an explicit requirement for receiving a teacher's license, a visa, or a work permit in Thailand. I also agree with the OP that B.Ed seems a bit of an overkill in respect to TEFL (if that's what he's talking about).

"Steven"

[jjspitz]

In answer to the OP's orginal question, I would say a B-Ed doesn't guarantee a good teacher. Nothing guarantees that. Really its up to the schools to determine who is a "good" teacher. The "authorities", I presume you mean MOE, Labour Department, and Immigration, can't possibly know that by looking at paperwork. Still, I don't think it's unreasonable for them to set a minimum qualification to get licensed and a legal work permit After all, you get a visa and work permit based on the fact you have some "expertise" in the field. If you have no standard, then you leave yourself open to negligence. That doesn't insure anyone who meets the standard is necessarily a "better" teacher. There's no way for authorities to guage that. As I said earlier, the schools have to take responsibility for that.

Also, I believe a B of Ed is supposed to be a requirement for Bilingual and International Schools in order to justify the high fees students must pay. I don't know how often it is enforced however.

[PeaceBlondie]

Nothing guarantees anything. The best physicians in Thailand had no idea what the infection in my arm was, and they were specialists trained in the West.

We aren't even talking the same definitions yet. If a Brit goes to school 3 years and gets a B.Ed. that only teaches them how, but not what to teach, they're not well qualified. In the state of the USA that I know there is no B.Ed. granted in any school! You have to spend four years (of 9 month terms) and earn a double major: in education, and in your teaching field. I am not aware of how somebody with a non-educational major, and a BA/BS/BM/B.Sc./etc., becomes certified to teach in the USA, but there is no PGCE. With my BA, I would have to take the following courses, or something similar: ed soc, ed history, ed philosophy, ed methods, develop psych, ed law - two years' of night school - and then a supervised practicum (for free) in an accredited school.

The teachers I have known for the past 20 or 50 years had full university training in their subject area (which might be primary education) and in education itself, and they had experience applying it in real life. Most of them were darn good at what they did.

Thailand? That would be worth 129,888 to 198,031 baht per month, plus benefits. If Thailand were to really require that, and actually enforce it with rigidity and perserverance unknown in this country, all the English programs would have to close, except in international schools that charge a million baht per year to attend.

One more thing: "perfectly well-qualified over-certified teacher" is one thing. "Good teacher" or "effective educator" or "popular White monkey" are other things.

[up-country_sinclair]

an education degree does not guarantee a good educator, just like a law degree doesn't guarantee a good lawyer.

if i were hiring, however, i'd take the guy with the degree in education.

[berries]

Did the OP not mean why do they prefer a B Ed to a PGCE, not a TEFL? As far as I am aware the only teachers with B Eds are Primary school teachers. It is a four year course (so the equivelent to a three year degree + PGCE) and you learn a mixture of content and practice, usually choosing a subject specialism. I am a Primary school teacher who went down the BA, PGCE route and I actually got an extra point on the pay scale for the PGCE because it is a post-graduate qualification. If you have a PGCE why are you looking on the Ajarn website? There are loads of jobs in Thailand in the TES just now that pay considerably more than any of the jobs on Ajarn.

[PeaceBlondie]

I'll try to be brief: if we barely know the B.Ed./fully qualified/PGCE/etc. requirements of our own country, and much less about other Western countries, surely most of the Thai school administrators know less. They don't know the Univ. of Bournemouth-Perzance Branch from University of Missouri at Rolla (great mining school). They don't know Oxford from Oxfam. Or, how to verify a degree without getting verification of the verification of the ve.....

Until you get into the top ranks of the real international schools, where the salaries exceed 100,000 baht per month.

[spectrum]

The Cert Ed can be used without a degree in UK schools so it *should* be acceptable in Thailand. What do you think?

This is the first I have heard of the UK Cert Ed. Teacher shortage ? Govt training up folk from other walks of life ? Sounds fine to me, so long as they do have the requisiste content knowledge and receive adequate training. And yes, if it's OK in the UK ( ), why not here ?

However, I am wondering what these teachers are trained to teach ( physics ? woodwork ? French literature ? ESL ? EFL ? ) and if their expertise is matched with the demands of the job in Thailand. I think , most teaching jobs here are EFL, though I do see others advertised.

Is it on the basis of a good teacher can teach anything and as long as they are 2 pages ahead of their students in the book it is ok?

I think it's on the basis of the white face selection method in combination with the we have no idea whatsoever method.

Australia has a roughly similar system to the UK, it seems. Four (? three) years B.Ed for primary teachers, degree plus one year Dip. Ed. for secondary and of course no educational training needed for tertiary level teaching . In my experience, you needed to work at building knowledge and skills with just a degree plus Dip Ed. Primary teachers had a far more thorough understanding of the learning process and tended to be very "people oriented" types; good EQ, loved kids & had always wanted to be teachers (all of these not always the case for 2ndry). Primary teachers knew stuff like how to teach a child to read and write, and the cognitive process involved. (Even Hong Kong did not understand that the foreign English teachers they needed in their classrooms were not the ones who had been teaching English as a subject back home, without TESOL skills or training.)

I would not hold my breath waiting for Thai schools to see if a teachers qual's and experience match the demands of the teaching position.

That said; even though what I am about to say would suggest I care nothing about quality of education (I do, of course), the demands of the job here may not be terribly demanding, so if you're a decently educated, decently well-spoken, literate and harmless sort of specimen, it probably isn't very important which qualifications you have. So long as untrained/inexperienced teachers understand their limitations in the classroom, they should have something to offer. Bravo to all those decent, chalk-covered guys and gals sweating and listening and articulating patiently, in overpopulated unairconditioned classrooms around the land for giving Thai kids their first experience of a native English speaker and authentic foreign devil; all for a mere stipend.

In other words, I suspect the B.Ed "requirement" might often be no more than a gesture in what is imagined to be the right direction.

Edited February 17, 2007 by spectrum

[Scott]

Boy and here we go again!

I work in a school in an administrative position and one of my responsibilities is hiring new teachers.

For KG (Aunobahn) and primary education, I will, without a doubt, try to get someone with a degree in education. They can run circles around everyone else (in general). They have been trained precisely for teaching. They generally have good subject knowledge, good methods, can write an accurate exam, correct it etc. etc. etc. They need a very minimal amount of supervision.

At the Mathyom level it gets to be a little trickier. Here sometimes the level of knowledge has to be at the forefront. The problem is that I've had some really knowledgeable people, but they just couldn't get it across to the students.

People with a background in education generally don't blame the students for their own shortcomings. All Thai students aren't stupid, all aren't spoiled, all aren't......

In short, take people with a background in education and you've got alot fewer problems.

[alaina]

Here we go again is right. I think I just heard something snap and it was me.

Apologies in advance for the vitriol, but this question has been asked so often that I have run out of patience.

As PB said, nothing guarantees anything, and that is doubly true in Thailand.

But...

Someone who took a BEd program had the desire to become a teacher and earn the necessary degree.

Someone that has a BEd has done the necessary preparation and met the criteria to get into the program.

Someone who has earned a BEd has found a way to pay for it and passed the required coursework, three to five years of it.

That's no guarantee, but it means something. Yes, there are bad teachers with BEd's, there are also many other educated professionals who are lousy at their jobs. But this being Thailand, it is much more likely that someone with a BEd did not start teaching as a way to extend his vacation.

There is an obvious agenda in all these BEd questions lately, and trying to make a degree I earned seem worth less is getting a little tiresome. If the new mysterious Thai MOE regulations are problematic, why not criticize them, instead of looking for flaws in your fellow teachers. If a teacher really wants to get whatever they are missing without an education degree, why not just get one? BTW, I do believe that there are plenty of good teachers without teaching degrees.

I'm considering getting my MEd now. Education in education is a good career move for an educator. Besides, I just might learn something new, which is what we're supposed to be modeling for the students.

[BigSnake]

In a word NO!!

[Ijustwannateach]

I don't think anyone's arguing that Ed. degrees are worthless, but that in certain circumstances they either are no better than a subject degree or possibly even overkill. I doubt that there's a flood of B.Ed's or even M.Ed's checking out the plum Prathom TEFL jobs in Isaan. While I agree that if there IS someone selfless enough to waste his B.Ed expenses that way, he probably would be better than someone who "only" had a college degree or even a TEFL plus experience- but not that much better- there's only so good you can get at teaching a basic skill to such low-level learners; most of it would be based more on your social intelligence than your education.

As the job becomes more of a real teaching job- teaching a subject, or even teaching English as it is taught to native speakers- then I agree the B.Ed becomes more relevant and less overkill.

The problem in conversations of this type is, as always, that the distinction between TEFL and subject teaching is not usually made by participants.