Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[Joe Mcseismic]

48 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Yes!
A few years back they had a program that applied to foreigners. I think it was meant for foreign "guest workers", i.e. from Laos, Cambodia, etc., but was a little vaguely worded and a number of Westerners got on it before someone noticed and pulled the plug on farang participation. That said, an expat I was chatting with swears a neighbor just got signed up. Still waiting to find out where!
I think the program would work fine if a reasonable premium were charged, and by that I mean enough to finance the needs of the system. Thai folks have the 30 baht scheme, how about 3,000 baht/month for farangs? I would gladly pay that, plus a  co-pay for "extra" services.
I think a program along those lines, with mandatory participation for those who do not carry private insurance, would well serve both the farang expat/visitor community, and would help finance the short falls of the existing system.
How to present such an idea to the movers and shakers?   

So......that would put the Elite Card out of business, eh?

[Thaidream]

6 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Translating a bank statement does not verify it.

How do you have any idea what the fraud numbers are?

Nothing can be 100% verified , so therefore you donm't even try- you ask for  a second or third  piece  that cros indexes each other.

 

No one knows how many people cheat and actually it doesn't matter- if one can show 65K in income from some source each month that will work.  If you are in Thailand you have to get your money somewhere to stay alive.  As I said, how many  people in this age  group working illegally; begging on the street

 

I used to work in a car insurance claims office in California- we estimated 10% of people we dealt with cheated- and when we caught them- we prosecuted- and advertised the prosecution- People start thinking twice about cheating when  they start getting caught.

 

[Russell17au]

7 minutes ago, OJAS said:

IB = Immigration Bureau - which I personally prefer to "TI", whatever that stands for!????

IB is part of TI or don't you know what is what here in Thailand.

[Russell17au]

1 minute ago, Thaidream said:

Nothing can be 100% verified , so therefore you donm't even try- you ask for  a second or third  piece  that cros indexes each other.

 

No one knows how many people cheat and actually it doesn't matter- if one can show 65K in income from some source each month that will work.  If you are in Thailand you have to get your money somewhere to stay alive.  As I said, how many  people in this age  group working illegally; begging on the street

 

I used to work in a car insurance claims office in California- we estimated 10% of people we dealt with cheated- and when we caught them- we prosecuted- and advertised the prosecution- People start thinking twice about cheating when  they start getting caught.

 

You are incorrect in your claim that nothing can be 100% verified. It is easy for me to get a verified income statement from my Government pension provider. The same as you can get a 100% verified tax statement from your government tax office. In the case that this thread is about it would be easy for you to give your embassy a signed authorization for then to be able to get a 100% verified income statement from your government pension provider, if they wanted to do that instead of ceasing to issue income letters

[elviajero]

39 minutes ago, OJAS said:

2 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

What is, "IB?"

IB = Immigration Bureau - which I personally prefer to "TI", whatever that stands for!????

“TI” presumably stands for Thai Immigration.

 

I prefer ‘TIB’. ????

Edited November 11, 2018 by elviajero

[Sheryl]

No. It is government hospitals only, but it’s (I think) 100%, unlimited and good for life.

I’ve never used it as I still have BCBS until February so I use Bumrungrad.

Actually it (Social Security) is 1 hospital only unless that hospital refers you elsewhere because you need care it cannot provide.

You select a hospital to enroll in from a lidt of hospitals in your area that participate in the SS scheme. Depending on where you live, that list can be pretty short. Some private hospitals do participate in SS, but except for a few religious-owned non profits the private hospitals that accept SS are best avoided. A good rule of thumb is to opt for the largest/highest level government hospital on the list.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Thaidream]

16 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

igned authorization for then to be able to get a 100% verified income statement from your government pension provider, if they wanted to do that instead of ceasing to issue income lette

Yes- I could but what would they do with it- fax it to Social Security in the US; send it as a PDFS file; send it by mail.  Tjhen  how long shall i have to wait to get that  verified statement back.

 

Now how about my private pension- how long before they respond.

 

Now how about my  Military Pension- how long before they respond.

 

It just isn't practical for any Embassy to do this- and in most cases  the other side will not respond in time or  ever. 

 

I can go into their secure websites now and print out the same information- take an Oath under penalty of perjury it is true and correct or I can print the letters- show them to Thai Imm; show the same amounts going into my US Bank Account by direct deposit- then show my Debit cards which  cross reference with the other 2 in amounts-

the problem is Thai Imm won't take the time to read them- they want an Embassy letter and the Embassy doesn't have the time or manpower to take my power of attorney and send it to 4 different places in the US and those places won't respond back timely because they don't have the manpower.

 

You take the best evidence you can get- ask for 2 or 3 other pieces that cross reference each other on dates; amounts and payees.  You accept it or you don't Most reasonable  institutions will accept it.

 

[moontang]

1 hour ago, onera1961 said:

If one marries, does she get a social security number? Or she has to emigrate to the USA? May be they can go to the USA, marry in Las vegas, apply for a social security card. With a social security card, spouse will be paid 50% of his SS (when she turns 62 of course), without any contribution made to the system. 

I heard something about them having to live in the US for ten years..otherwise you would have old guys taking a girl back for a quick wedding, and permanently moving back to Thailand....

[Russell17au]

4 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Yes- I could but what would they do with it- fax it to Social Security in the US; send it as a PDFS file; send it by mail.  Tjhen  how long shall i have to wait to get that  verified statement back.

 

Now how about my private pension- how long before they respond.

 

Now how about my  Military Pension- how long before they respond.

 

It just isn't practical for any Embassy to do this- and in most cases  the other side will not respond in time or  ever. 

 

I can go into their secure websites now and print out the same information- take an Oath under penalty of perjury it is true and correct or I can print the letters- show them to Thai Imm; show the same amounts going into my US Bank Account by direct deposit- then show my Debit cards which  cross reference with the other 2 in amounts-

the problem is Thai Imm won't take the time to read them- they want an Embassy letter and the Embassy doesn't have the time or manpower to take my power of attorney and send it to 4 different places in the US and those places won't respond back timely because they don't have the manpower.

 

You take the best evidence you can get- ask for 2 or 3 other pieces that cross reference each other on dates; amounts and payees.  You accept it or you don't Most reasonable  institutions will accept it.

 

I can print off my tax records and my pension statement to but that still does not satisfy the embassy for the verification of the document. I can take the same document to my embassy and have it authenticated but the embassy will still not accept that as a verified document. The only way is for the embassy to contact the pension providers for verification

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, moontang said:

heard something about them having to live in the US for ten years..otherwise you would have old guys taking a girl back for a quick wedding, and permanently moving back to Thailand...

Not Correct- if married to a foreigner- the foreigner has to prove they have lived in the US for 5 years. It doesn't have to be consecutive but they will ask for copies of ones passport as well as other documentation to prove  the residency.

[Thaidream]

27 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

can print off my tax records and my pension statement to but that still does not satisfy the embassy for the verification of the document. I can take the same document to my embassy and have it authenticated but the embassy will still not accept that as a verified document. The only way is for the embassy to contact the pension providers for verification

The pension provider whether it be Government or private WILL NOT provide the information unless they have in their hands a fully executed Power of Attorney and in most cases they want it either delivered in person or sent via certified mail.  There is no way  the Embassy or anyone else can log  into your pension account unless you are standing in the Embassy- use your laptop or their computer and they see the amount and then they have no way of knowing  it is actually your account.

 

In the Us I couldn't even verify directly with an employer that an individual was employed.  You have to use documents that cross index each other to get close to verification-  a pay stub; a pension letter; an investment broker's letter; etc-  then you get  a bank statement showing the exact same amounts going into a bank account at the same time  month after month in the same amount. Then you get a third method such as  a debit statement or credit card statement showing amounts. Then you might want to get a Tax statement  showing total income.  You cross reference everything and then get close to accuracy or verification. Everything could be false but  most times it is very difficult for someone to fabricate everything. You think Thai Imm is going to be able to do all this or even the Embassy.

 

The  British Embassy and some of the others actually do look at  printed letters  verifying income but do not have their citizens swear to it.  The US/AUS Embassy  has their citizens take an Oath swearing to what  they write on the declaration.

 

According to the Embassies Thai Imm wanted 100% verification so  the Embassies said can't do it and no letter.  I am still convinced this could have all been worked out if people of good faith negotiated and listened to each other and eventually the truth will be revealed.

 

Now we are on to the  next- what will be acceptable to prove you have an income stream of 65K per month or 40K per month.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Thaidream

[mogandave]

Yes- I could but what would they do with it- fax it to Social Security in the US; send it as a PDFS file; send it by mail.  Tjhen  how long shall i have to wait to get that  verified statement back.
 
Now how about my private pension- how long before they respond.
 
Now how about my  Military Pension- how long before they respond.
 
It just isn't practical for any Embassy to do this- and in most cases  the other side will not respond in time or  ever. 
 
I can go into their secure websites now and print out the same information- take an Oath under penalty of perjury it is true and correct or I can print the letters- show them to Thai Imm; show the same amounts going into my US Bank Account by direct deposit- then show my Debit cards which  cross reference with the other 2 in amounts-
the problem is Thai Imm won't take the time to read them- they want an Embassy letter and the Embassy doesn't have the time or manpower to take my power of attorney and send it to 4 different places in the US and those places won't respond back timely because they don't have the manpower.
 
You take the best evidence you can get- ask for 2 or 3 other pieces that cross reference each other on dates; amounts and payees.  You accept it or you don't Most reasonable  institutions will accept it.
 

They don’t do it now, but it could be arranged that you could go to the consulate, fill out a form.

Go online to IRS

Order a tax transcript

Have it delivered to you, c/o the consulate.

They open it in your presence, stamp a monthly average income box on it, fill in the average, you sign and swear, they notarize it.

[fforest1]

19 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

I can print off my tax records and my pension statement to but that still does not satisfy the embassy for the verification of the document. I can take the same document to my embassy and have it authenticated but the embassy will still not accept that as a verified document. The only way is for the embassy to contact the pension providers for verification

I hear the guys on Khao san road.... Can verify any document....

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, PhonThong said:

3 hours ago, onera1961 said:

If they want fixed deposit, they have to abandon annual extension renewal and 90-day reporting. I don't think it is going to happen. Nothing has changed for TI. They even don't have to issue any new police order. The existing police order will work if you can show 65K/40K every month coming to a Thai bank (no embassy letter)

Existing police order says nothing about the monthly income having to be deposited in a Thai Bank. Only says must show proof of income. Doesn't even say it must come from out of the country. If I am missing something, I wish someone would produce the order number.

The police orders set out the reasons extensions can be granted, and the minimum standards (criteria) that should be met to qualify. Additional orders are often issued to immigration offices regarding the criteria, and offices can request any additional documents/information when considering an extension request.

 

The orders do only say that proof of income is required, and as it stands the only 'proof' accepted is an embassy letter; however, immigration can/do sometimes -- in addition to the embassy letter -- ask for proof of money coming in to the country; such as transfers to a Thai bank or ATM receipts.

 

No change would be needed to the current police order for immigration to accept transfers to a Thai bank as proof of income. Immigration would just need to be authorised to do so by TIB bosses.

 

The income is supposed to come from abroad. You're a foreigner.

 

This is a FAQ page from a immigration website;

http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php?page=faq

22. Question : What is the required age of the alien wisthing to stay in Thailand with the reason of Retirement?

Answer : For reasons to stay of Retirement, the alien must be 50 year of age or older and must have been granted a Non-Immigrant visa, firstly. More over, the said alien must have evidences to verify his/her financial status of not less than 65,000 Baht per month or 800,000 Baht per year. Evidences showing financial support are as follows;        1.  In case of having money in the bank account (Saving/Fix deposit) of any bank located in Thailand.        -  The updated bank passbook on the date of application submission showing money in the account of not less than 800,000 Baht which has been deposited and consecutively held of such amount for 3 months. ( Except the first application for this reason, that such amount should be deposited and held for 60 days)      -  Letter from the bank certified the current account in the bank of not less than 800,000 Baht; or          2.2  In case of having any other income from abroad such as pension, social welfare      -  Letter from the applicant’s Embassy or consulate in Thailand verifying their pension or other income of the applicant which must not be less than 65,000 Baht per month. Or; [snip]

 

 

[Russell17au]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The pension provider whether it be Government or private WILL NOT provide the information unless they have in their hands a fully executed Power of Attorney and in most cases they want it either delivered in person or sent via certified mail.  There is no way  the Embassy or anyone else can log  into your pension account unless you are standing in the Embassy- use your laptop or their computer and they see the amount and then they have no way of knowing  it is actually your account.

 

In the Us I couldn't even verify directly with an employer that an individual was employed.  You have to use documents that cross index each other to get close to verification-  a pay stub; a pension letter; an investment broker's letter; etc-  then you get  a bank statement showing the exact same amounts going into a bank account at the same time  month after month in the same amount. Then you get a third method such as  a debit statement or credit card statement showing amounts. Then you might want to get a Tax statement  showing total income.  You cross reference everything and then get close to accuracy or verification. Everything could be false but  most times it is very difficult for someone to fabricate everything. You think Thai Imm is going to be able to do all this or even the Embassy.

 

The  Briktish Embassy and some of the others actually do look at  printed letters  verifying income but do not have their citizens swear to it.  The US/AUS Embassy  has their citizens take an Oat swearing to what  they write on the declaration.

 

According to the Embassies Thai Imm wanted 100% verification so  the Embassies said can't do it and no letter.  I am still convinced this could have all been worked out if people of good faith negotiated and listened to each other and eventually the truth will be revealed.

 

Now we are on to the  next- what will be acceptable to prove you have an income stream of 65K per month or 40K per month.

In Australia you do not have to sign over Power of Attorney and that is a fact as I have had dealings of this type for many years, all you have to do is sign an authorisation form for the party number 1 to supply party number 2 with the required records. This also works with hospitals and doctors obtaining your medical records and insurance companies obtaining private records. Australia does not take an oath, they use a Statutory Declaration which is a different process to the USA and UK

[Thaidream]

6 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Go online to IRS

Order a tax transcript

Have it delivered to you, c/o the consulate.

They open it in your presence, stamp a monthly average income box on it, fill in the average, you sign and swear, they notarize it

Could actually work since it is one of the things IRS  accepts on line- However, i can't remember if the transcript shows all  income reported even if non taxable such as Social Security and  Veterans Disability Pensions.  The problem I see is the Embassy  has  a mindset that nothing will work or they can't be bothered.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

n Australia you do not have to sign over Power of Attorney and that is a fact as I have had dealings of this type for many years, all you have to do is sign an authorisation form for the party number 1 to supply party number 2 with the required records. This also works with hospitals and doctors obtaining your medical records and insurance companies obtaining private records. Australia does not take an oath, they use a Statutory Declaration which is a different process to the USA and UK

Sorry -didn't realize you were referring to Australia- appears a possible answer.  Other poster suggested a possible answer for Americans.   I say send any and all ideas to our Embassies to let them know their citizens are concerned and willing to work on ideas to solve the issue. It's too bad none of the Embassies  have solicited ideas BEFORE making a decision to stop the letters.

[Russell17au]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Sorry -didn't realize you were referring to Australia- appears a possible answer.  Other poster suggested a possible answer for Americans.   I say send any and all ideas to our Embassies to let them know their citizens are concerned and willing to work on ideas to solve the issue. It's too bad none of the Embassies  have solicited ideas BEFORE making a decision to stop the letters.

the embassies are not interested in getting off their asses and doing something for their citizens. It is quite easy actually to verify government pensions, the embassies and the government pension providers are both government depts and it would be quite easy to scan and email the authorisation to the other party and they email the result back. The only problem would be the time zone difference so it might take a few hours, but I can log into my account and have a print out in less than 5 minutes. The private pensions could be done the same way.

[Thaidream]

28 minutes ago, elviajero said:

The income is supposed to come from abroad. You're a foreigner.

While it says the income must come from abroad- it does not indicate that the income has to be transferred to a Thai Bank account. One can put the money in a Thai account in several ways- if the IO wanted verification of  where the income originated -several ways to do it.

 

In practice- as you know- the only time one really has to show the origination of the money is when one comes with an Exempt entry or a Tourist Visa and wants to change to a Non O so as to apply for a retirement/marriage extension.  The section that deals with the Non O does ask for  proof the income came from abroad ( my conjecture on this is if you are here on an Exempt/Tourist Visa-they want to rule out working )

 

However- 90 days later  or  sooner- when one goes to apply for the retirement extension or marriage extension you are not required to  prove where the income originates or even where it originates on further extensions.  In practice- they do not care . And in the actual police order or the Thai Imm Web site-  there is no reference to  any source of income- only evidence it exists.  I have every reason to believe- if coming from abroad, they would have specifically stated such in  the Police Order or on the Imm site.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Thaidream

[Russell17au]

7 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

While it says the income must come from abroad- it does not indicate that the income has to be transferred to a Thai Bank account. One can put the money in a Thai account in several ways- if the IO wanted verification of  where the income originated -several ways to do it.

 

In practice- as you know- the only time one really has to show the origination of the money is when one comes with an Exempt entry or a Tourist Visa and wants to change to a Non O so as to apply for a retirement/marriage extension.  The section that deals with the Non O does ask for  proof the income came from abroad ( my conjecture on this is if you are here on an Exempt/Tourist Visa-they want to rule out working )

 

However- 90 days later  or  sooner- when one goes to apply for the retirement extension or marriage extension you are not required to  prove where the income originates or even where it originates on further extensions.  In practice- they do not care . And in the actual police order or the Thai Imm Web site-  there is no reference to  any source of income- only evidence it exists.  I have every reason to believe- if coming from abroad, they would have specifically stated such in  the Police Order or on the Imm site.

You are correct about income does not have to be in a Thai bank account. The only money that must be in a Thai bank account is the money that is seasoned 400,000/800,000 or the amount above your income in the combined system of the retirement extension. I have only opened a Thai bank account 6 months ago up until then my money went into an Australian bank account and I withdrew what I wanted at any ATM

[elviajero]

4 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

While it says the income must come from abroad- it does not indicate that the income has to be transferred to a Thai Bank account. One can put the money in a Thai account in several ways- if the IO wanted verification of  where the income originated -several ways to do it.

 

In practice- as you know- the only time one really has to show the origination of the money is when one comes with an Exempt entry or a Tourist Visa and wants to change to a Non O so as to apply for a requirement/marriage extension.  The section that deals with the Non O does ask for  proof the income came from abroad ( my conjecture on this is if you are here on an Exempt/Tourist Visa-they want to rule out working )

 

However- 90 days later  or  sooner- when one goes to apply for the retirement extension or marriage extension you are not required to  prove where the income originates or even where it originates on further extensions.  In practice- they do not care . And in the actual police order or the Thai Imm Web site-  there is no reference to  any source of income- only evidence it exists.  I have every reason to believe- if coming from abroad, they would have specifically stated such in  the Police Order or on the Imm site.

You're right that, currently as a general rule, they do not insist on seeing income being actually transferred from abroad. But they do occasionally ask for proof that it has. The fact remains that the income is supposed to originate from abroad; and as it's the income you're claiming to live on it must at some point find its way to Thailand!

 

When you apply for a non 'O' they want proof that the funds come from abroad, because the funds are supposed to come from abroad. No conjecture required.

 

As I have explained already, the police orders set out the basic criteria. It makes senses for them to simply state that proof of income is required to provide TIB flexibility when obtaining that proof. 

 

[jimn]

3 hours ago, onera1961 said:

I know you're an expert and a seer who can see what TI will ask for in the future. How do you know I don't stay here? I am coming to Thailand for 14 years, for three years I stayed full time and then left for 5 years.

Firstly I am no expert but I know a lot more than you. You are someone who forgets what he posted a few days ago when you said you dont stay here but have been coming here before. Its obvious from your posts that you have no idea what it takes to get an extension of stay based on either marriage or retirement. Those of us who do know that it currently needs an income letter if using the income method. You are someone who chooses to believe the claptrap being spurted out by the 3 embassies. Yes some of it may turn out to be true, but as I have said many times, no one knows until TI release a statement. If they dont as someone posted, it will be chaos after the embassies stop issuing the letters. I can see someone going to TI without a letter and saying why will you not accept my thai bank statements showing 65k a month? Someone named Onera1961 on Thai Visa said I could.

[Thaidream]

6 minutes ago, elviajero said:

s I have explained already, the police orders set out the basic criteria. It makes senses for them to simply state that proof of income is required to provide TIB flexibility when obtaining that proof. 

With all due respect- I can easily prove I  have proof of income from abroad without a transfer to a Thai Bank account.  Then there is those who are married and  need to have 40K income stream per month.  Some get their income from working legally and others have invested in  Thailand and while not working they do have  the correct income stream.  None of this comes from abroad.

 

Except for very few Thai Imm offices- it has never mattered before because  the major Thai Imm offices follow both the letter and spirit of the Police Order.  Under the 'new' system without the letter- you may have to show the Thai Bank Book, but I will be surprised if  Thai imm really cares about the source. They certainly don't care about the source if  one has 400/800 K in the bank.

[onera1961]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Not Correct- if married to a foreigner- the foreigner has to prove they have lived in the US for 5 years. It doesn't have to be consecutive but they will ask for copies of ones passport as well as other documentation to prove  the residency.

I did some reading just out of curiosity. Foreign spouse of the following countries can receive spousal benefits even if they have never stepped foot in the USA - Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Chile, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea (South), Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom. (Totalization agreement). For all other countries, what you have said is correct - five years. This is bummer. If somebody lives for five years as a spouse, she will at least be a permanent residence.

[JackThompson]

3 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

For all other countries, what you have said is correct - five years. This is bummer. If somebody lives for five years as a spouse, she will at least be a permanent residence.

And the damage done to her mind/perspective by the culture in my country during a 5-year sentence could make her as useless for a wife as the vast-majority of the local options.  Scary.  Mine will have to make-due on the life-insurance when I pass on.

[JLCrab]

15 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I will be surprised if  Thai imm really cares about the source. They certainly don't care about the source if  one has 400/800 K in the bank.

This is the current posting on the UK Embassy Bangkok website:

 

"British Nationals should now demonstrate that they have an amount of at least 800,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 65,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand."

 

So at least they are being specific about the source.

[onera1961]

37 minutes ago, jimn said:

he posted a few days ago when you said you dont stay here but have been coming here before.

Five years ago, I stayed here full time for 3 years (visa runs, ed visa, etc.). I went back to the USA to earn some more mullah to secure my stay as I could not touch my 401K without penalty. This year I came back again with an O-A visa but I don't stay here regularly. I plan to keep getting O-A visa as long as I could because I found it easy and hassle free for me. True, I never did any extension and like to avoid it in the future if I could. But I also want to keep all options open and advocate a system that is easy for all. Thai bank transfer without embassy letter is easy for all

Edited November 11, 2018 by onera1961

[onera1961]

18 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Mine will have to make-due on the life-insurance when I pass on.

Good idea to buy a life insurance if married

[mogandave]

Good idea to buy a life insurance if married

Yeah, I just got my wife signed up.

One can only hope...

[merijn]

22 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

This is the current posting on the UK Embassy Bangkok website:

 

"British Nationals should now demonstrate that they have an amount of at least 800,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 65,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand."

 

So at least they are being specific about the source.

Where is the source from which they quote?

The embassy can write on their website whatever they want but that doesn't mean that it is accepted by TI.

Starts already that it is not a visa application what you do (except if you do the conversion from a VOA/TR60 to a long term extension) but a extension based on ......