Thailand Demands Telecom, Satellites Back From Singapore

[Clipped]

dont forget thaksin was the one that initiated the REWRITING of the ORIGINAL constitution as well as codes having to do with commerce....

He and his government passed laws. That's what legislation means: the passing or changing of laws. But when did he rewrite the constitution?

are you serious? you dont realize that he rewrote the constitution?... i'll give you time to do more research before i sink my teeth into you...

[Clipped]

http://www.hrschool.org/doc/mainfile.php/lesson49/188/

have fun reading...but you should read it knowing that thaksin had his pawns in place during the preliminary and final drafts...even after the finalization , he added other amendments...WHICH ARE HARD TO TRACK by the common man, unless you keep up to date ... thats why in America its called the 'Living Constitution', because its constantly changing....

looking closely at the above article, you can see many things which contradict thaksins actions during his reign of power....eventhough he played a part in writing them.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Clipped

[seagull]

dont forget thaksin was the one that initiated the REWRITING of the ORIGINAL constitution as well as codes having to do with commerce....

He and his government passed laws. That's what legislation means: the passing or changing of laws. But when did he rewrite the constitution?

are you serious? you dont realize that he rewrote the constitution?... i'll give you time to do more research before i sink my teeth into you...

Ouch! One man could re-write the constitution? Ouch again.

[Clipped]

you know what i mean, no need to be a smartass....even though i initially said he 'initiated'....you still choose to try to bend the meaning of what i said.

and i am sure that he being the prime minister at the time, is the one that gave the green light to all points in the constitution after reading them himself...

so yes you can say he rewrote it...

[dog412]

you know what i mean, no need to be a smartass....even though i initially said he 'initiated'....you still choose to try to bend the meaning of what i said.

and i am sure that he being the prime minister at the time, is the one that gave the green light to all points in the constitution after reading them himself...

so yes you can say he rewrote it...

forgive me, but are you are saying that the rest of the elected government either, did not know what what was going on, agreed with it, or was unable to do anything about it? you make it sound as if it was a dictatorship.

[sriracha john]

John

Rather than a massive post quoting all the rest - no - I have not seen it like this before.

Its usually Thailand and Cambodia, Burma or Laos at a push ;-))

Singapore against Malaysia and Indonesia

Temasek are quoted today as saying they will sell Shin Satellite at the right price - about 85 million USD at todays prices is quoted in The Straits Times today.

It still leaves them down though if they has to sell all Shin Corp shares as they are about half now what they paid for them

oh ok. To sum up then, there IS a fair amount of credibility in laying a lot of the blame then on the current strife at Thaksin's door.

Thank you.

I suppose it depends if you beleive that Thaksin had the right to sell Shin corp and the deal was legal.

We all know it was his but could he sell it to an overseas buyer?

As for Singapore listening in to comms - I think they would spy on economic interests rather than military if anything - after they are finished spying on their own people only though ;-))

Are Singapore and Thailand really economic rivals in the ame sectors?

Finance, BioTech and High Technology companies go to Singapore

Thailand has some very good manufacturing and engineering down the eastern seaboard

I do not think they are in the same markets really

To me its about blaming Thaksin for everything but its spilling over to spats with neighbours - just my opinion of course.

If they are being quoted all over saying they have evidence to charge Thaksin then they should do so - either corruption or for drug deaths or deaths in the South.

With 13 different investigations, I think they will. I also believe that historically these sort of investigations and prosecuting them take time... more often than not, much more time than the few months they've been in place.

One would hope that when its army shreds the constitution of a country and assumes the reins of power, the evidence is so overwhelming as to provide them with a 'slam dunk'- and we know that even 'slam-dunks' can turn out to be nothing more than rumor. And hoax.

and yet history teaches us that someone as blatantly corrupt and an obvious slam-dunk as Marcos, who was thrown out in a People Coup, was... it still took a year before formal charges were brought against him.

[blaze]

you know what i mean, no need to be a smartass....even though i initially said he 'initiated'....you still choose to try to bend the meaning of what i said.

and i am sure that he being the prime minister at the time, is the one that gave the green light to all points in the constitution after reading them himself...

so yes you can say he rewrote it...

Clipped, I honestly don't have a clue what you are talking about. Are you saying that Taksin was primeminister when the 97 constitution was ratified?

You refer to ammendments to the constitution. Please provide a source where these can be accessed- or give some examples.

The link you provided was very good but leaves me completely in the dark as to why you would provide it when it supported nothing you say. Unless you are talking about judicial interpretation of certain clauses in the constitution. Which of course, occurs under all governments in all constitutional democracies.

[LivinLOS]

why are some of you so opposed to the thai army keeping the integrity of its communications system unbreeched?

what is wrong with that? do you expect thailand to just sit back and say, "Oh no problem we trust you...just make sure you dont dial into so and so channel...because thats our military channels with very confidential info."

im sure most of you would be equally disgruntled if the operator at your condo was listening in on your conversations.

hypnocrits

Because its not the Thai army's satellites.. They belonged to a private company !!!

If Thailand wants to have its own government owned communications systems, then more power to them, please invest in one and build and operate it. No one is complaining.

However thats like the army using cisco routers and network setup and then demanding they own cisco as its vital to thier national interests.

[Sing_Sling]

What's a 'hypnocrits'? Is that when someone proposes a point of view which only suits his position, clearly obfuscating anything else that is actually relevant to the discussion?

Hypnocrits, indeed.

[Prakanong]

dont forget thaksin was the one that initiated the REWRITING of the ORIGINAL constitution as well as codes having to do with commerce....

Which "Original" constitution - there have been several.

Are you referring to the last one - the 1997 one - I thought that was only being re-written now after being torn up but the military dictatorship?

[Prakanong]

John

Rather than a massive post quoting all the rest - no - I have not seen it like this before.

Its usually Thailand and Cambodia, Burma or Laos at a push ;-))

Singapore against Malaysia and Indonesia

Temasek are quoted today as saying they will sell Shin Satellite at the right price - about 85 million USD at todays prices is quoted in The Straits Times today.

It still leaves them down though if they has to sell all Shin Corp shares as they are about half now what they paid for them

oh ok. To sum up then, there IS a fair amount of credibility in laying a lot of the blame then on the current strife at Thaksin's door.

Thank you.

personally, I think - bottom line - the reason for the current situation between thailand, thaksin, and singapore is -

Thailand = Per Capita Income (2005) - 2,173 Euro / 2,750 US Dollars per year

Singapore = Per Capita Income (2005) - 21,726 Euro / 27,490 US Dollars per year

http://www.searchenginecolossus.com/Thailand.html

...this whole thing really doesn't have anything to do with thaksin selling shin to singapore.

the common people in thailand are just frustrated that they are not keeping up with their neighbor. and can't figure out why? they work hard. many even work 12 hour days. yet why are they not making more money?

the answer? ..2 reasons.

1) thailand didn't emphasize education enough in the past 4 decades.

2) thailand didn't emphasize the importance of english enough.

from what I read in bangkokpost, only 20% of all thais have a high school education or above. and as for the english language, thais can't compare to singaporeans or even india.

so, basically, if you can't attract foreign investors who use the english language as their media, and don't have the education to work with them, where did you expect to be in the future???? foreign investors is where the money is. where the technology is.

have you thought about it? ..all the programming languages are in english. most of the technology is in english. you really need to know english if you want to keep up.

but it is not too late.. thailand just needs to get off their butt, and change their priorities. ..like singapore, india, and even china did.

I think this is the same reason for the turmoil down south. the muslims down south torched all the non-muslim schools because they are pissed off with studying all these years, and cannot get a job after doing so. in their eyes - WHAT's THE POINT??? their rage is so great, they don't want anything to do with thailand especially after being ignored for so long.

the people who need to step up to the plate now are the rich people. the rich thais. they have to realize that the only way for their future generations to survive is to bring the poor up to their level. this means - education on a serious level. no more bribes to get good grades.

frankly though, if you read my previous postings, you all know how I feel about jobs going away from usa. but I am somewhat surrendering to globalization for now. (not that I could do anything anyway.) I am also worried about the future in regards to global warming. but hey - you can't live forever.

I am just grateful that I have food on the table, and a place to sleep. one of the lucky ones.

Some very good points regarding the English language and Education - I do think it goes further than that though with Singaporeans seeing incentives for a better life too.

As for China and India I am reading "Chindia" now by Peter Engardio - it really is a wake up call to the western economies.

[slimdog]

Because its not the Thai army's satellites.. They belonged to a private company !!!

Like all communication concessions in Thailand, the ShinSat concession is under a Build,Transfer,Operate system(BTO)

This means that the private company Builds (or commissions) a satellite, it then Transfers ownership of the satellites to the state, and in return the state grants the concession holder the right to Operate the equipment for a period of time (In return for a percentage of all income, regardless of whether the company actually makes a profit or loss).

[Clipped]

blaze, i gave you that link so you could indeed see that the constituton was rewritten while thaksin was the advisor to the government, he was deputy prime minister at the time...and was already in the process of putting his friends in place... originally you stated you did not know the constitution was rewritten while thaksin was deputy prime minister, so i showed you some info...had you been in thailand during that time period, you would understand what the situation was.

it was well know at the time, that he played an instrumental roll in initiating and advising the revision of the constitution.

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/World-L...E-TO-POWER.html

dog412, during the period thaksin rose to power, everyone was hopping on the bandwagon, he was still considered a good guy, and no one realized he was setting up checkmate...there was some opposition, but the majority vote on issues regarding the constitution were on his side...the majority which he started to enlist.

Prakanong, the current government reverted to the pre 1997 constitution...which is the obvious thing to do...

LivinLos, slimdog is right on the spot...

Sing Sling , you have yet to put up any kind of relevant evidence of any kind...im trying to be civil with you, but you just seem to be putting statements out based on emotion...how about cooling off and showing us some facts...for now all i know is you want to get your car and house back from your girlfriend.

you guys are making me tired and i hate politics....time for some whiskey.

[Clipped]

btw, its a good time to buy iTV stocks....4 baht, cant lose there...

[Clipped]

google........... 1997 thaksin

and read up, im tired of typing

[lannarebirth]

why are some of you so opposed to the thai army keeping the integrity of its communications system unbreeched?

what is wrong with that? do you expect thailand to just sit back and say, "Oh no problem we trust you...just make sure you dont dial into so and so channel...because thats our military channels with very confidential info."

im sure most of you would be equally disgruntled if the operator at your condo was listening in on your conversations.

hypnocrits

Because its not the Thai army's satellites.. They belonged to a private company !!!

If Thailand wants to have its own government owned communications systems, then more power to them, please invest in one and build and operate it. No one is complaining.

However thats like the army using cisco routers and network setup and then demanding they own cisco as its vital to thier national interests.

Correct me if I'm wromg please. but doesn't the government of Thailand still own the satellites, but Shin Satellite holds the operations contract?

[Sing_Sling]

Prakanong, the current government reverted to the pre 1997 constitution...which is the obvious thing to do...

LivinLos, slimdog is right on the spot...

Sing Sling , you have yet to put up any kind of relevant evidence of any kind...im trying to be civil with you, but you just seem to be putting statements out based on emotion...how about cooling off and showing us some facts...for now all i know is you want to get your car and house back from your girlfriend.

you guys are making me tired and i hate politics....time for some whiskey.

If that is your reasoning then you have not read thr responses either correctly or at all . . . as for my having a girlfriend . . . nope, happily married.

You seem to be deviating the discussion as usualy from the original topic to whatever suits your line of discussion and that simply obfuscates the line of the thread.

This is getting boring, however.

Private property bought and sold in a legal manner and now the military junta want to take it back or hold a poll to see what the people think.

How sad is that. What does this say about a country spiralling out of control.

Latest news, however, is that they are wiling to buy them back . . . what nice people.

[Prakanong]

Clipped

Reverted to the pre-97 constitution?

I thought they were without a constitution now?

[slimdog]

I thought they were without a constitution now?

Thailand is currently under the interim constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand 2549

a copy of which can be found at:

http://www.senate.go.th/pdf/const.pdf

Getting back on topic.

One thing that the government (hopefully) will be aware of if they purchase ShinSat back is that ShinSat has a number of companies under it's ownership, 2 of which are:

Cambodia Shinawatra Company Limited (CamShin)

CamShin operates the telecommunications services in Cambodia under the 35-year license, granted by Ministry of Posts and Telecommunications of Cambodia until March 4, 2028.

Lao Telecommunications Company Limited (LTC)

LTC is a joint venture between Shennington and the government of the Lao Peoples Democratic Republic, in which Shenington holds 49 per cent (Shenington was purchased by ShinSat in 1999). LTC has a license to operate all types of telecommunications services in Laos

Edited February 23, 2007 by slimdog

[Sing_Sling]

Wouldn't that then undermine the rationale for the government to have satellites if they can 'control' other nations means of communication . . . or is it only bad when this happens to Thailand - in theory?

[thedude]

Because its not the Thai army's satellites.. They belonged to a private company !!!

Like all communication concessions in Thailand, the ShinSat concession is under a Build,Transfer,Operate system(BTO)

This means that the private company Builds (or commissions) a satellite, it then Transfers ownership of the satellites to the state, and in return the state grants the concession holder the right to Operate the equipment for a period of time (In return for a percentage of all income, regardless of whether the company actually makes a profit or loss).

yes...but not quite. my understanding is that large assets such as satellites which operate on a BTO, BOT, BOOT, etc basis, use a sort of structured finance involving national export credit agencies which have a first right to the asset cashflow. for example, France, which has a major industry in making satellites, may spend a total of say 1 billion dollars to make the satellite, the French export credit agency, which wants to sustain the industry and promote its products overseas, actually pays the industry upfront so that engineers and scientists and workers get their wages and not have to worry about the end buyer paying up for the satellite. the agency then turns around and arranges very complicated legal and financial terms with the project sponsor (in this case most likely Shin sat the concession holder) to ensure that they get the 1 billion dollars back plus interest over the economic life of the satellite (normally corresponding the to concession period). national export agencies are naturally interested in dealing with very secure counterparties that can virtually guarantee the payment over the concession period. in exchange, they offer interest rates that are normally very competitive, eg libor plus 100+ bp. since these are in effect long term, fixed income loans, the credit agencies want assurances that the operator is exprienced and capable of generating the income stream, and they may (under limited recourse arrangments) additionally request the owner (more specifically the 'sponsor') to underwrite any shortfall in the income. the sponsor may also in turn ask the government granting the concession to provide a soveriegn undertaking if they are also one of the users of the satellite. for these types of financing, the point on who actually 'owns' the asset becomes moot since it is intricately tied up in a whole chain of interdependent claims and performance obligations. even if the government is the legal owner, the highest claim to the asset is probably the credit agencies. the most important party to them is actually the concession holder because it is the party responsible to produce the income stream that makes the entire undertaking feasible. if the concession terms change or anything happens to undermine the risk profile, the interest rate coming from the lender will change and severly affect the commercial side. the lender may even exercise a call on the loan or reclaim the asset (or specific rights to the asset) before any military government can do anything. the international courts will be on the lenders' side. because these deals are so complicating, you can see why when a general says he wants to take back the asset, it causes a lot of confusion, not just because of whether he intends to pay for it, but the entire premise or backdrop of the original deal changes.

Edited February 23, 2007 by thedude

[chuchok]

even if the government is the legal owner, the highest claim to the asset is probably the credit agencies. the most important party to them is actually the concession holder because it is the party responsible to produce the income stream that makes the entire undertaking feasible. if the concession terms change or anything happens to undermine the risk profile, the interest rate coming from the lender will change and severly affect the commercial side. the lender may even exercise a call on the loan or reclaim the asset before any military government can do anything. the international courts will be on the lenders' side.

That is interesting.great post.

[Prakanong]

even if the government is the legal owner, the highest claim to the asset is probably the credit agencies. the most important party to them is actually the concession holder because it is the party responsible to produce the income stream that makes the entire undertaking feasible. if the concession terms change or anything happens to undermine the risk profile, the interest rate coming from the lender will change and severly affect the commercial side. the lender may even exercise a call on the loan or reclaim the asset before any military government can do anything. the international courts will be on the lenders' side.

That is interesting.great post.

and if i was the lender i would hope i have the codes to switch off the satellite in the very last resort ;-))))

[Old Man River]

yes...but not quite. my understanding is that large assets such as satellites which operate on a BTO, BOT, BOOT, etc basis, use a sort of structured finance involving national export credit agencies which have a first right to the asset cashflow. for example, France, which has a major industry in making satellites, may spend a total of say 1 billion dollars to make the satellite, the French export credit agency, which wants to sustain the industry and promote its products overseas, actually pays the industry upfront so that engineers and scientists and workers get their wages and not have to worry about the end buyer paying up for the satellite. the agency then turns around and arranges very complicated legal and financial terms with the project sponsor (in this case most likely Shin sat the concession holder) to ensure that they get the 1 billion dollars back plus interest over the economic life of the satellite (normally corresponding the to concession period). national export agencies are naturally interested in dealing with very secure counterparties that can virtually guarantee the payment over the concession period. in exchange, they offer interest rates that are normally very competitive, eg libor plus 100+ bp. since these are in effect long term, fixed income loans, the credit agencies want assurances that the operator is exprienced and capable of generating the income stream, and they may (under limited recourse arrangments) additionally request the owner (more specifically the 'sponsor') to underwrite any shortfall in the income. the sponsor may also in turn ask the government granting the concession to provide a soveriegn undertaking if they are also one of the users of the satellite. for these types of financing, the point on who actually 'owns' the asset becomes moot since it is intricately tied up in a whole chain of interdependent claims and performance obligations. even if the government is the legal owner, the highest claim to the asset is probably the credit agencies. the most important party to them is actually the concession holder because it is the party responsible to produce the income stream that makes the entire undertaking feasible. if the concession terms change or anything happens to undermine the risk profile, the interest rate coming from the lender will change and severly affect the commercial side. the lender may even exercise a call on the loan or reclaim the asset (or specific rights to the asset) before any military government can do anything. the international courts will be on the lenders' side. because these deals are so complicating, you can see why when a general says he wants to take back the asset, it causes a lot of confusion, not just because of whether he intends to pay for it, but the entire premise or backdrop of the original deal changes.

TheDude, your project background is showing. Financial issues aside, do you happen to recall how many years remain on the Thai government's frequency rights for SHIN's varous satellites from the world organization governing these things?

[thedude]

TheDude, your project background is showing. Financial issues aside, do you happen to recall how many years remain on the Thai government's frequency rights for SHIN's varous satellites from the world organization governing these things?

sorry OMR i dont have that info.

i spent a few years in my early career as a financial analyst for an energy developer and had some experience in negotiating concessions for power projects so i guess i do have some background though not specific to telco.

my description here was really very very general, just to give a flavour of the way these things are structured and the multiple considerations involved. concession agreements can run into several thick volumes spelling out in great detail who holds what risk at what cost, and all the mitigating factors and detailed formulas for calculating compensation, performace matrices, and so on.

projects in the billion dollar category don't leave much legal or commercial angle uncovered, in fact every conceivable point is laboured to excrutiating detail. any assignment of shareholder interest will certainly require the prior consent of the lender, however in cases involving export credit agencies which by definition deal with low risk deals involving large corporates and governments, such fundamental changes could very well trigger a higher sovereign risk rating, especially if it is caused by the government. if these institutions get duped by a government, you can bet thailand will be downgraded and future infrastructure funding will be problematic. the devil is in the details, and i can only guess that general sonthi did not do his homework to understand the contractual dynamics of the satellite concession. the thai government may end up shooting themselves in the foot.

[slimdog]

Thai push for satellites may hasten Shin Corp overhaul

Thailand's push to take over the country's satellite business controlled by Shin Corp could speed up a corporate overhaul of the conglomerate's diverse assets.

For the past three months, a Temasek Holdings-led consortium that controls Shin Corp has been mulling over a restructuring plan that will turn it into a regional mobile telecommunications player.

According to financial executives familiar with the proposed corporate makeover, Shin Corp's push to focus on telecommunications will involve the sell-off of its other assets such as its satellite operation, a television broadcasting station and finance company.

The restructuring plan, which would also feature a name change for the group, was to be set in motion after the Temasek-led consortium resolved Shin Corp's legal troubles with the government.

Now, that timetable is likely to be brought forward following Thai army chief Sonthi Boonyaratkalin's statement last week demanding that Temasek and its partners sell Shin Corp's 41 per cent interest in Shin Satellite back to the state.

Many Bangkok-based bankers, who had initially feared the possibility of nationalisation, say that the statement had the effect of helping lift the pall over Shin Corp, which has had trouble attracting suitable suitors for its assets.

'Temasek and its partners have always wanted to resolve the problems facing Shin. This is offering the shareholders a fresh opportunity,' says a Bangkok- based banker who is closely tracking developments at Shin Corp.

The sale last year by then Premier Thaksin Shinawatra's family of its stake in Shin Corp set off a political storm that led to his ouster and left Shin Corp's new owners under a cloud of political suspicion and legal problems.

But with General Sonthi's remarks about a sale, state agencies such as the Telephone Organisation of Thailand (TOT), and CAT Telecom have shown interest in buying Shin Satellite, along with Thailand's Samart Group, whose businesses include satellite-dish distribution.

Other potential suitors include investment holding companies Dragon One and Loxley, say several Bangkok-based investment analysts.

Temasek executives were unavailable for comment, but executives close to its Thai partners, which include Siam Commercial Bank and low-profile businessman Surin Upatkoon, acknowledge that the restructuring plans can now be speeded up.

Shin Satellite operates four satellites, including iPSTAR, which ranks as the world's largest broadband satellite. The company also has a large shareholding in CSLoxinfo, a leading Internet provider.

Several Bangkok-based bankers say that the sale of Shin Satellite could help Temasek and its partners find new investors for another problematic Shin investment, commercial broadcasting company iTV.

The company has been ordered by Thailand's Supreme Administrative Court to pay a concession fee of 2.12 billion baht (S$94.5 million) or risk losing its concession.

Bankers say that the Temasek-led consortium is currently holding informal talks with the Thai government to resolve the impasse over the concession fee.

Bankers close to Shin Corp say that the asset disposal plan will be capped with a change of name.

'Shin needs a re-branding, and a change of name will help shed the baggage the group is carrying,' says a financial executive close to Temasek's Thai partners.

source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/02/23...es_30027681.php

[Clipped]

Clipped

Reverted to the pre-97 constitution?

I thought they were without a constitution now?

if you could undrstand the thai language, they clearly stated in the thai language during the media blackout, that the constitution prior to the 1997 constitution, would be used while a new one was being drafted.

[Clipped]

Prakanong, the current government reverted to the pre 1997 constitution...which is the obvious thing to do...

LivinLos, slimdog is right on the spot...

Sing Sling , you have yet to put up any kind of relevant evidence of any kind...im trying to be civil with you, but you just seem to be putting statements out based on emotion...how about cooling off and showing us some facts...for now all i know is you want to get your car and house back from your girlfriend.

you guys are making me tired and i hate politics....time for some whiskey.

If that is your reasoning then you have not read thr responses either correctly or at all . . . as for my having a girlfriend . . . nope, happily married.

You seem to be deviating the discussion as usualy from the original topic to whatever suits your line of discussion and that simply obfuscates the line of the thread.

This is getting boring, however.

Private property bought and sold in a legal manner and now the military junta want to take it back or hold a poll to see what the people think.

How sad is that. What does this say about a country spiralling out of control.

Latest news, however, is that they are wiling to buy them back . . . what nice people.

Edited February 23, 2007 by Clipped

[Clipped]

why are some of you so opposed to the thai army keeping the integrity of its communications system unbreeched?

what is wrong with that? do you expect thailand to just sit back and say, "Oh no problem we trust you...just make sure you dont dial into so and so channel...because thats our military channels with very confidential info."

im sure most of you would be equally disgruntled if the operator at your condo was listening in on your conversations.

hypnocrits

You still don't get it, do you "Clipped"...I think your mentality is at par with Sonthi and company.

I had spent much time and money in Thailand buying houses, cars etc etc etc for my Thai g/f, can someone or maybe "Clipped" can advise me how to get all back.....

to compare the purchase of a house and car which you probably bought for a girl of questionable character....is a pale comparison to the importance of a national satellite system which is of utmost importance to national security...

"Clipped" is the slang for a distorted waveform with a square plateau....so yes i know a thing or two about communications...i know even more about buying a house or car for a girl that is suspect...

check yourself

well golly sing sling..in this post here it clearly states you have a thai girlfriend....

your post should be between pages 19-20, but they seemed to have conveniently disappeared....its a pretty low move to actually go back and delete your own post....heck i didnt even know you could do that...

have a nice day...

Edited February 23, 2007 by Clipped

[Clipped]

i wonder if singapore would still be willing to sell the sats back to thailand if shincorp shares hadnt dropped like a rock...things that make you say hmmmmmm.