Thailand Demands Telecom, Satellites Back From Singapore

[cmiuc]

I don't know if anyone in this government has thought about this...

"Do we(thai government) build our own satelites? And do we have the technology to build our own space centers to send these 'said satelites' into the skies above?

I think the answer is 'no' and so that means Thailand has to do busness with the countries that do and have these businesses...?

So the issue is, "cut off our nose to spit our face?"

Kind of like the Asian friend finder advertised on this page.... Where are all those farang women found in the different provinces of Thailand... hmmmm ?

l8z

[lukamar]

I see your point, but it's important to remember, that the businesses Shin operates are almost entirely government granted concessions. Government granted concessions, carry with them rules to abide.

Shin's satellites were also used by the AThai military and it's not unreasonable for them to be peeved that the military satellites are now under the control of a foreign power. Clearly the time to address these issues was as they arose, but they do need addressing still.

I'm thinking Tamesek won't consider giving or selling the satellites back. If the Thai government pulls their licensing - I'm sure they can get all the new licensing they will ever need from the Singapore government in record time and with a bit of orbit tweaking, which is not a problem, they can probably service Southern Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines and northern Oz without much of a problem. Where would Thailand be then - No Premier league football and no cell phones - the masses would revolt.

Edited February 18, 2007 by lukamar

[kmart]

Maybe it really is time for Thailand to revert back to a "sufficiency economy?" ie, back to the "rice in the fields, fish in the sea" indolent lifestyle?

Because when it comes to a level international business playing field, it seems Thailand is too stupid, immature, uneducated, and bent to ever get on the score sheet.

[marshbags]

Just forget the why,s and who,s of this situation for a minute and look at it from a common sense approach and give it a reality check.

If anyone, let alone the Prime minister of any country had done a deal like this he would in the free world have been in deep s***, and thrown out of office immediately, not only for criminal actions but most importantly

For compromising national security

marshbags

yeah. except for the southern muslims, who wants to take over thailand?

if you are so worried about national security, why aren't you focusing on telenor of norway? don't you consider them a threat to national security? they own 70% of DTAC/Ucom. or how about malaysia's cut of the pie including their cut of Samart? let's not forget the huge participation of japan in this country.

let's put it another way, one Mr. Pridiyathorn wrote in a recent AsiaMedia article wrote quote,

"There are altogether 2,428 foreign businesses (in Thailand). Of these, only 1,337 businesses will be affected," he said."

Mr. Pridiyathorn was referring to the number of companies having more than 50% ownership in thailand.

national security? ...sounds more like paranoia to me.

you want supporting links, enjoy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telenor

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=60830

http://sanpaworn.vissaventure.com/?id=207

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=38004

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=38308

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax

http://bdo-thaitax.com/publications/pub_ta...us_2006_mar.pdf

http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/fo...php/t-1448.html

While i sympathise with the Southern problem, this thread is about the Shin Corp sale and in particular the National Assets / Communication sytems it transferrred to Singapore.

SOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo your

You could always start a new thread to debate SOME of the important observations you raise.

The fact that Singapore is now in a position to listen in to various internal Thai institutions and in particular the Thai Military and the police it certainly facilitates a threat to Thailand should it be used for political purposes ect. or intercepted by rogue institutions.

Incidently they could also interfere with the Southern situation if they so desired via their new aquisitions.

One certain Ex C.E.O. is / has already used this in his quest to cause chaos and unrest while in exile.

The fact that he sold the equiptment in the first place and has insider information on all the capabilities and how to do this to his own selfish advantage shouts volumes for his lack of integrity and his obvious NON loyalty and his HONEST / DISHONEST INTENTIONS to Thailand and it,s citizens.

Again non of the main democratic countries would have allowed this to happen and the offenders HIGH profile or otherwise would have been dealt with severely due to it,s potential implications relating to National security, which of course comes under a various array of banners as we all must appreciate.

Having said that, it would of course have been a non starter in this particular scenario in the first place.

IMHO of course

marshbags

Edited February 18, 2007 by marshbags

[Sing_Sling]

Having said that, I can tell you the feeling here in Singapore is that Thailand has turned into a true banana republic.

This little island cannot afford to make too any enemies, especially not where they have huge investments, so saying that they were aware of the wrongs of the Shin deal is ludicrous - Singapore would not jeopardise countless billions in investment for a short-term shady deal.

Oh please, Singapore is no virgin to shady deals in the region, especially up in Burma. But the folks in Singapore are very astute business people and those involved would have known and gamed that this deal with the sitting Thai Prime Minister was, from the Thai perspective due to the lack of taxation on Shinwat, a very shady deal indeed, and decided that the profits were worth the risks.

But I do find it humerous that the Chinese down in Singapore feel the Chinese in Thailand are running a "banana republic".

You either are intentionally misreading my post or didn't understand the language.

I said, quite clearly, that Singapore would not jeopardise their investments for short term shady deals. Is that too complicated for you to understand?

In case you weren't aware, Chinese Thais and Chinese Singaporeans are not the same thing. It would be like finding it humorous that Caucasian Swiss think Caucasian Portuguese are lazy or Caucasian Germans believe that Caucasian Italians are unorganised or that Caucasian Brits think that Caucasian Americans are cowboys. (Need more examples?)

[george]

Update:

Democrat executive supports coup leader’s plan to reclaim satellite back from Singpore

BANGKOK: -- Democrat Party deputy leader Alongkorn Pollabutr hailed chairman of the Council for National Security Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin’s initiative to take back a satellite concession from a Singapore's state-linked company.

Alongkorn said he fully supported the coup leader’s call to recapture what the top general termed as “Thai national assets” which have been sold to foreigners. Gen Sonthi was speaking to territorial defence students Friday during a seminar on patriotism.

The general was understood to refer to the controversial sale of the telecommunications giant founded by ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. Singapore state investment firm Temasek Holdings purchased Mr Thaksin's family owned company, Shin Corp, for $US3.8 billion last year. The deal involved the satellite concession, stakes in the country's largest cellular phone operator, a low-cost airline and a television channel.

Singapore’s Foreign Ministry said it was surprised by the Thai general’s remark but would wait for further clarification from Bangkok. Singapore has maintained that the deal was purely a business consideration and had nothing to do with the government.

The Democrat party executive said he would seek a meeting next week with Gen Sonthi to shed more light on his remark. In the meantime, he would try to put together an alliance of link-minded people to press ahead with the general’s call.

According to Mr Alongkorn, the repurchase of the assets could be done either by raising funds via the sale of government bonds or by ordering state-controlled CAT Telecom to take over Shin Satellite. But he cautioned that the government should go through a proper process in its attempt to seek the return of the Shin Satellite concession, otherwise it could be seen as government interference in investment matters.

''It should be made very clear to international investors that the government was not trying to seize control of satellite concessions back from foreign investors,'' he said.

--TNA 2007-02-17

[Mid]

take back , recapture , sold to foreigners , alliance of link-minded people to press ahead ,

............. ......................... .............................

''It should be made very clear to international investors that the government was not trying to seize control of satellite concessions back from foreign investors,'' he said.

good luck with that ............................

[nick2k]

Just forget the why,s and who,s of this situation for a minute and look at it from a common sense approach and give it a reality check.

If anyone, let alone the Prime minister of any country had done a deal like this he would in the free world have been in deep s***, and thrown out of office immediately, not only for criminal actions but most importantly

For compromising national security

marshbags

yeah. except for the southern muslims, who wants to take over thailand?

if you are so worried about national security, why aren't you focusing on telenor of norway? don't you consider them a threat to national security? they own 70% of DTAC/Ucom. or how about malaysia's cut of the pie including their cut of Samart? let's not forget the huge participation of japan in this country.

let's put it another way, one Mr. Pridiyathorn wrote in a recent AsiaMedia article wrote quote,

"There are altogether 2,428 foreign businesses (in Thailand). Of these, only 1,337 businesses will be affected," he said."

Mr. Pridiyathorn was referring to the number of companies having more than 50% ownership in thailand.

national security? ...sounds more like paranoia to me.

you want supporting links, enjoy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telenor

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=60830

http://sanpaworn.vissaventure.com/?id=207

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=38004

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=38308

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax

http://bdo-thaitax.com/publications/pub_ta...us_2006_mar.pdf

http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/fo...php/t-1448.html

While i sympathise with the Southern problem, this thread is about the Shin Corp sale and in particular the National Assets / Communication sytems it transferrred to Singapore.

SOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo your

You could always start a new thread to debate SOME of the important observations you raise.

The fact that Singapore is now in a position to listen in to various internal Thai institutions and in particular the Thai Military and the police it certainly facilitates a threat to Thailand should it be used for political purposes ect. or intercepted by rogue institutions.

Incidently they could also interfere with the Southern situation if they so desired via their new aquisitions.

One certain Ex C.E.O. is / has already used this in his quest to cause chaos and unrest while in exile.

The fact that he sold the equiptment in the first place and has insider information on all the capabilities and how to do this to his own selfish advantage shouts volumes for his lack of integrity and his obvious NON loyalty and his HONEST / DISHONEST INTENTIONS to Thailand and it,s citizens.

Again non of the main democratic countries would have allowed this to happen and the offenders HIGH profile or otherwise would have been dealt with severely due to it,s potential implications relating to National security, which of course comes under a various array of banners as we all must appreciate.

Having said that, it would of course have been a non starter in this particular scenario in the first place.

IMHO of course

marshbags

for some reason, I don't think you are really concerned about national security. it seems to me that you have a personal grudge against thaksin.

you throw out all these accusations, and yet have no supporting evidence to prove your point.

if anybody lacks integrity, it is you. you do understand what the word - integrity - means, don't you?

as for honest intentions, anybody who follows the rule of law seems to me has honest intentions. you do believe in the rule of law, don't you?

..if you are truly concerned about national security, what is your opinion about the majority ownership of DTAC/Ucom by the foreign company telenor? or the major holdings in thailand by the country of japan?

we in the foreign arena want to know.

we are talking about national security, and the telecom industry, aren't we?

national security and the telecom industry goes beyond just thaksin.

and we in the foreign community want to know just how far you are willing to go with your anti-foreigner behavior.

oh. one last thing, I'm not a .

[blaze]

This regime demands that as it's raison d'etre, Taksin be seen as having brought Thailand to the brink of self destruction- a silly concept, but none the less, the only way it can absolve itself of having torn up the constitution of the land and for the seventeenth time in the last 75 years, deployed tanks to authorize the right of the military to determine the wishes of the populace.

Such regimes are not self sustaining- they rely on the syncophantic sympathies of those who would see all alternatives to dictatorship as a threat to national security. And when General Sonthi uses Germany, Japan, Israel and Vietnam as examples of patriotism, it is as if he knows that the lure of the iron boot can become too strong for many normally sensible people to resist.

[Old Man River]

As Penguin pointed out a few pages ago, General Sonthi's comments were given to one to two thousand, impressionistic high school students and carried a very nationalistic message. The question was asked as to why Singapore, with no arable land, was able to afford THB 140 billion to purchase these assets? The only answer given was the nationalistic aspect, but the real answer to this question, which high school students would not know, is that Singapore (with little arable land) created a business environment very friendly to long term foreign investors.

General Sonth's use of Singapore as a model was surprising given that (a) Thaksin was also using the Singapore model as a system beneficial to Thailand and ( the CNS's new foreign business laws (as confirmed by TDRI) will have the opposite impact on Thailand.

[bkkandrew]

As Penguin pointed out a few pages ago, General Sonthi's comments were given to one to two thousand, impressionistic high school students and carried a very nationalistic message. The question was asked as to why Singapore, with no arable land, was able to afford THB 140 billion to purchase these assets? The only answer given was the nationalistic aspect, but the real answer to this question, which high school students would not know, is that Singapore (with little arable land) created a business environment very friendly to long term foreign investors.

General Sonth's use of Singapore as a model was surprising given that (a) Thaksin was also using the Singapore model as a system beneficial to Thailand and ( the CNS's new foreign business laws (as confirmed by TDRI) will have the opposite impact on Thailand.

Or simply that Gen. Sonthi genuinely does not know why Singapore is rich and successful? This theory is backed up by many of the nonsense pronouncements and policies eminating from his Junta!

Edited February 18, 2007 by bkkandrew

[BigSnake]

What will they want back next?? Hmmmmm!

[slimdog]

ICT Ministry to announce measures for taking back satellite concession on Monday

Information and Communications Minister Sitthichai Pookaiyaudom will Monday announce measures for taking back satellite concessions from Singapore's Temasek Holdings, he said Sunday.

After the announcement, he will submit the measurse to Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont to consider and choose.

He said the mesures would not affect the feelings of foreign investors and would not be seen a persecution against Singapore.

Sitthichai declined to accept the proposal of the Democrat Party to issue bond to raise fund to buy back the satellite concessions.

source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30027175

[wintermute]

ICT Ministry to announce measures for taking back satellite concession on Monday

Information and Communications Minister Sitthichai Pookaiyaudom will Monday announce measures for taking back satellite concessions from Singapore's Temasek Holdings, he said Sunday.

After the announcement, he will submit the measurse to Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont to consider and choose.

He said the mesures would not affect the feelings of foreign investors and would not be seen a persecution against Singapore.

How would this not be considered outright theft or affect investor confidence? This military junta is really sliding down the deep end. I guess losing in that embarassing football match drove them crazy.

[pjallittle]

If is easy for Thailand to get its assets back. Since all profits are derived from Thailand, all they have to do is tax all monies from telecom businesses that leave Thailand at a 50% or higher rate. Singapore would be more than willing to sell the assets back without taking a loss because if they don't, Thailand could tighten the rules more until Thailand gets all the profits and is unwilling to buy the assets at the original price.

Oh thats intelligent!....Should Singapore tax all Thailands investments in Singapore too?

It strikes me that this is a saga that will run and run. Thailand, or rather those in power, of whatever political leanings, have much to learn about transparent government, corporate governance and the rule of law.

They should take a trip to Finland; perhaps there they will understand the reason why this country regularly tops the poll in corporate governance. It is small enough and outside the 'Western/American/Chinese/Russian' sphere of influence that so many in Thailand dislike (although Thais everywhere are always quick to take any 'buck' that they can get).

Is that why Finland's suicide rates are the highest in the world? All those happy people?

http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514256042/html/x335.html

[Bruce1]

This place is just getting weirder and weirder.

I assume Gen Sonthi doesn't know or doesn't care that the Americans are already llistening to his military communications, along with almost every telephone call made anywhere in the world. But he's afraid of being listened to by tiny little Singapore? Really, why? Does he think they're selling Thai military secrets to Burma?

The sooner we have democratic elections and the generals go back to their barracks and resume playing with their military toys the better. Their paranoia is getting WAY over the top.

It would be nice if the rule of law was resumed soon too...

[Johpa]

Having said that, I can tell you the feeling here in Singapore is that Thailand has turned into a true banana republic.

This little island cannot afford to make too any enemies, especially not where they have huge investments, so saying that they were aware of the wrongs of the Shin deal is ludicrous - Singapore would not jeopardise countless billions in investment for a short-term shady deal.

Oh please, Singapore is no virgin to shady deals in the region, especially up in Burma. But the folks in Singapore are very astute business people and those involved would have known and gamed that this deal with the sitting Thai Prime Minister was, from the Thai perspective due to the lack of taxation on Shinwat, a very shady deal indeed, and decided that the profits were worth the risks.

But I do find it humerous that the Chinese down in Singapore feel the Chinese in Thailand are running a "banana republic".

You either are intentionally misreading my post or didn't understand the language.

I said, quite clearly, that Singapore would not jeopardise their investments for short term shady deals. Is that too complicated for you to understand?

In case you weren't aware, Chinese Thais and Chinese Singaporeans are not the same thing. It would be like finding it humorous that Caucasian Swiss think Caucasian Portuguese are lazy or Caucasian Germans believe that Caucasian Italians are unorganised or that Caucasian Brits think that Caucasian Americans are cowboys. (Need more examples?)

No you are very easy to understand. But Singapore is willing to take risks and place their investments in jeopardy over shady deals if they think the risks are worth taking relative to the potential future profits.

And yes, I am aware that Singapore is primarily Hokkien Chinese and Sino-Thais are primarily Teo Chiu. But your examples are rather poor as the various European Caucasian groups listed do not embrace the same shared sense of history and shared culture as do, despite their differences, the Chinese groups.

[Sing_Sling]

No you are very easy to understand. But Singapore is willing to take risks and place their investments in jeopardy over shady deals if they think the risks are worth taking relative to the potential future profits.

And yes, I am aware that Singapore is primarily Hokkien Chinese and Sino-Thais are primarily Teo Chiu. But your examples are rather poor as the various European Caucasian groups listed do not embrace the same shared sense of history and shared culture as do, despite their differences, the Chinese groups.

Umm, I guess for the umpteenth time: I am an expat here in Singapore, as white as a sheet of paper and as European as the Brussels European Parliament.

Having said that, my wife is Chinese (Malaysian Chinese) and there is no feeling of connection between Thai Chinese or Indon Chinese. The one combining factor is the mainland, but that is fading away slowly.

Chinese migration spans millenia, much as European migration = same thing, if anything they are wary of one another. Eurpeans do share many aspects of their culture and history, borders as we know them now werenot always there, nor were the states etc . . .

Fact remains that Singapore cannot work very shady deals that might put them in a bad light to the investment community as this is what Singapore is based on and what keeps Singapore alive. Take that away and you'll see them moving to Malaysia or further afield.

To compare Thailand and Thaksin's or the Junta's modus operandi to that of this place . . . wrong.

[ThaiGoon]

Umm, I guess for the umpteenth time: I am an expat here in Singapore, as white as a sheet of paper and as European as the Brussels European Parliament.

Having said that, my wife is Chinese (Malaysian Chinese) and there is no feeling of connection between Thai Chinese or Indon Chinese. The one combining factor is the mainland, but that is fading away slowly.

Chinese migration spans millenia, much as European migration = same thing, if anything they are wary of one another. Eurpeans do share many aspects of their culture and history, borders as we know them now werenot always there, nor were the states etc . . .

Fact remains that Singapore cannot work very shady deals that might put them in a bad light to the investment community as this is what Singapore is based on and what keeps Singapore alive. Take that away and you'll see them moving to Malaysia or further afield.

To compare Thailand and Thaksin's or the Junta's modus operandi to that of this place . . . wrong.

Your persistence on defending Singapore that they didn't work a shady deal on this takeover makes me wanna puke. Everyone knows that Thaksin bent, changed the rules of law, and did everything he could to make this deal go through. Singapore knew this. They knew there were risks. But they thought Thaksin would always be a powerful figure in Thailand and that no one would and could do what the current government is doing. The Thai government is rightly trying to take back what should have never been in the hands of Singapore in the first place.

[ColPyat]

Everyone knows that Thaksin bent, changed the rules of law, and did everything he could to make this deal go through.

The problem here is that everybody believes they know this to be so. I just keep wondering if that is such a clear cut issue, why then it seems to be so difficult to find enough evidence to give the issues to the courts. The only thing i hear is opposition politicians saying that they know this to be so (wouldn't they say so?), and the junta leaders changing their statements from saying how difficult it may be to find any evidence, to promising that it will soon be brought to the courts, and back again.

So far, it only gets more confusing, especially when every Tom, Dick and Harry has a definate opinion on the issue, and the whole debate is more dominated by ideology and emotive nationalist propaganda than expert and factual reason.

[Bruce1]

The Thai authorities have yet to prove anything illegal about the sale of Shin and I suspect they'll have to invent some creative interpretations of the rules to make anything stick. If they don't, and they grab the satellites back, then LOS can kiss foreign investors goodby for a long time.

[bkkandrew]

Umm, I guess for the umpteenth time: I am an expat here in Singapore, as white as a sheet of paper and as European as the Brussels European Parliament.

Having said that, my wife is Chinese (Malaysian Chinese) and there is no feeling of connection between Thai Chinese or Indon Chinese. The one combining factor is the mainland, but that is fading away slowly.

Chinese migration spans millenia, much as European migration = same thing, if anything they are wary of one another. Eurpeans do share many aspects of their culture and history, borders as we know them now werenot always there, nor were the states etc . . .

Fact remains that Singapore cannot work very shady deals that might put them in a bad light to the investment community as this is what Singapore is based on and what keeps Singapore alive. Take that away and you'll see them moving to Malaysia or further afield.

To compare Thailand and Thaksin's or the Junta's modus operandi to that of this place . . . wrong.

Your persistence on defending Singapore that they didn't work a shady deal on this takeover makes me wanna puke. Everyone knows that Thaksin bent, changed the rules of law, and did everything he could to make this deal go through. Singapore knew this. They knew there were risks. But they thought Thaksin would always be a powerful figure in Thailand and that no one would and could do what the current government is doing. The Thai government is rightly trying to take back what should have never been in the hands of Singapore in the first place.

Here you go again... Spouting nonsense. Thailand has no more right to seize satellites than anyone else! Typical paranoia from you and the Junta.. Mature coutries recognise the interconnectability of the 21st Century world, try UK:

Only Sat broadcaster (Sky) - owned by News Corp (US), major sharholder - Murdoch (Aussie - I think);

Major Cellphone providers - O2 (Spain), Orange (France), 3 (Hong Kong), Vodafone (UK)...

(Above from memory), You get it now? Live with it, nabbing satellites (you can't anyway, as they are in orbit) does not extend you p3nis!

[eddie11]

[

Your persistence on defending Singapore that they didn't work a shady deal on this takeover makes me wanna puke. Everyone knows that Thaksin bent, changed the rules of law, and did everything he could to make this deal go through. Singapore knew this. They knew there were risks. But they thought Thaksin would always be a powerful figure in Thailand and that no one would and could do what the current government is doing. The Thai government is rightly trying to take back what should have never been in the hands of Singapore in the first place.

Buy it back don't take it back

All this talk of taking it back is just making you the laughing stock of the region.

Remarks like this is the reason for not having generals running the country

[nick2k]

Umm, I guess for the umpteenth time: I am an expat here in Singapore, as white as a sheet of paper and as European as the Brussels European Parliament.

Having said that, my wife is Chinese (Malaysian Chinese) and there is no feeling of connection between Thai Chinese or Indon Chinese. The one combining factor is the mainland, but that is fading away slowly.

Chinese migration spans millenia, much as European migration = same thing, if anything they are wary of one another. Eurpeans do share many aspects of their culture and history, borders as we know them now werenot always there, nor were the states etc . . .

Fact remains that Singapore cannot work very shady deals that might put them in a bad light to the investment community as this is what Singapore is based on and what keeps Singapore alive. Take that away and you'll see them moving to Malaysia or further afield.

To compare Thailand and Thaksin's or the Junta's modus operandi to that of this place . . . wrong.

Your persistence on defending Singapore that they didn't work a shady deal on this takeover makes me wanna puke. Everyone knows that Thaksin bent, changed the rules of law, and did everything he could to make this deal go through. Singapore knew this. They knew there were risks. But they thought Thaksin would always be a powerful figure in Thailand and that no one would and could do what the current government is doing. The Thai government is rightly trying to take back what should have never been in the hands of Singapore in the first place.

so, where did you get your information? from your next door neighbor? from the village idiot? perhaps from the local gossiper? please let us all in on your sources of information.

from what I have I read, thaksin didn't break any laws when he sold shin corp to singapore. in fact, from what I read, these thai laws regarding capital gains in thailand have been in existence for over 2 decades.

http://bdo-thaitax.com/publications/pub_ta...us_2006_mar.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/02/07...ss_20000430.php

granted, the tax laws may not be in the best interest of the people. but then, if the people didn't like them, then, go through the legal process and vote to change them. that is what civilized people do. that is what rational people do.

hey! laws are suppose to be applied fairly to all people in the country. ...so, let me repeat. what about the DTAC/Ucom situation where telenor of norway has 70% ownership? why are you guys all trying to ignore this question?

..could it be - because this is sonthi's company? the guy who has the television program denouncing all the evil that thaksin has committed? the guy who lead the PAD?

talk about evil.

[wintermute]

Ahh Thaigoon running to Thailand's defense once again without evaluating facts or using any critical thinking. How very typical.

Your persistence on defending Singapore that they didn't work a shady deal on this takeover makes me wanna puke. Everyone knows that Thaksin bent, changed the rules of law, and did everything he could to make this deal go through.

If this is the case and it's such a given..then why has the CNS not brought together a compelling case to prosecute Thaksin for corruption and fraud? It's rather interesting to me that they have taken so long in ironing out the vaguest details. Maybe it's because it wasn't just Thaksin who was complicit in shady government dealings but powerful men who are currently in the government may also be implicated?

Singapore knew this. They knew there were risks.

In business there are always risks but you usually don't expect the private business you had dealings with to be seized by the government over some rather arbitrary reasoning. The ethical thing for the Thai government to do would be to process its claims regarding national security in a transparent court of law and pay Temasek back in full if it wants to reverse its dealings. So far it seems that the junta just wants to have its cake and eat it too by engaging in corporate looting over hamfisted and laughable justifications.

But they thought Thaksin would always be a powerful figure in Thailand and that no one would and could do what the current government is doing. The Thai government is rightly trying to take back what should have never been in the hands of Singapore in the first place.

The problem is that's assuming a lot in a rather negative fashion with little evidence presented thus far to back up the claims.

Edited February 18, 2007 by wintermute

[Mid]

Nitya: Sonthi stance 'tests' Singapore ties

BangkokPost.com, Agencies

Foreign Minister Nitya Pibulsonggram declined to comment on Friday's remarks made by Council for National Security chairman that he wanted to bring the Shin Corp satellite firm sold to Singapore, but conceded that bilateral relations are now being tested.

.

Singapore demands clarification

Sonthi stands by his position on Shin Satellite

By Bangkok Post and AFP

He said in Ratchaburi yesterday that if the island state wanted clarification of his remarks, the Singapore government should make it formally in a written statement. ''If not, I will not explain it to Singapore,'' he added.

[marshbags]

Just forget the why,s and who,s of this situation for a minute and look at it from a common sense approach and give it a reality check.

If anyone, let alone the Prime minister of any country had done a deal like this he would in the free world have been in deep s***, and thrown out of office immediately, not only for criminal actions but most importantly

For compromising national security

marshbags

yeah. except for the southern muslims, who wants to take over thailand?

if you are so worried about national security, why aren't you focusing on telenor of norway? don't you consider them a threat to national security? they own 70% of DTAC/Ucom. or how about malaysia's cut of the pie including their cut of Samart? let's not forget the huge participation of japan in this country.

let's put it another way, one Mr. Pridiyathorn wrote in a recent AsiaMedia article wrote quote,

"There are altogether 2,428 foreign businesses (in Thailand). Of these, only 1,337 businesses will be affected," he said."

Mr. Pridiyathorn was referring to the number of companies having more than 50% ownership in thailand.

national security? ...sounds more like paranoia to me.

you want supporting links, enjoy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telenor

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=60830

http://sanpaworn.vissaventure.com/?id=207

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=38004

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=38308

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax

http://bdo-thaitax.com/publications/pub_ta...us_2006_mar.pdf

http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/fo...php/t-1448.html

While i sympathise with the Southern problem, this thread is about the Shin Corp sale and in particular the National Assets / Communication sytems it transferrred to Singapore.

SOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo your

You could always start a new thread to debate SOME of the important observations you raise.

The fact that Singapore is now in a position to listen in to various internal Thai institutions and in particular the Thai Military and the police it certainly facilitates a threat to Thailand should it be used for political purposes ect. or intercepted by rogue institutions.

Incidently they could also interfere with the Southern situation if they so desired via their new aquisitions.

One certain Ex C.E.O. is / has already used this in his quest to cause chaos and unrest while in exile.

The fact that he sold the equiptment in the first place and has insider information on all the capabilities and how to do this to his own selfish advantage shouts volumes for his lack of integrity and his obvious NON loyalty and his HONEST / DISHONEST INTENTIONS to Thailand and it,s citizens.

Again non of the main democratic countries would have allowed this to happen and the offenders HIGH profile or otherwise would have been dealt with severely due to it,s potential implications relating to National security, which of course comes under a various array of banners as we all must appreciate.

Having said that, it would of course have been a non starter in this particular scenario in the first place.

IMHO of course

marshbags

for some reason, I don't think you are really concerned about national security. it seems to me that you have a personal grudge against thaksin.

you throw out all these accusations, and yet have no supporting evidence to prove your point.

if anybody lacks integrity, it is you. you do understand what the word - integrity - means, don't you?

as for honest intentions, anybody who follows the rule of law seems to me has honest intentions. you do believe in the rule of law, don't you?

..if you are truly concerned about national security, what is your opinion about the majority ownership of DTAC/Ucom by the foreign company telenor? or the major holdings in thailand by the country of japan?

we in the foreign arena want to know.

we are talking about national security, and the telecom industry, aren't we?

national security and the telecom industry goes beyond just thaksin.

and we in the foreign community want to know just how far you are willing to go with your anti-foreigner behavior.

oh. one last thing, I'm not a .

The deal in question was negotiated while he was the P.M. / C.E.O. of Thailand

Indeed he even made a visit while he was still in office and coincides nicely with the time table before his lack of intergity on this matter was exposed for all to witness.

The consequent minipulating of Thailands constitutional laws to suit his tax free payout for what was a conflict of interest in anyones language is beyond the pale, even by his low standards.

integrity n. 1 moral excellence; honesty. 2 wholeness; soundness. [Latin: related to *integer]

You sum yourself up nicely with your impolite reference to the Thai and it,s meaning.

No further comment is going to be forthcoming, so save your acid for someone else who may bite back.

Have a nice day and stay cool, what ever your agenda is, let us all hope you loosen up a little before you implode.

marshbags

Edited February 18, 2007 by marshbags

[gummy]

The Thai governement statement published in the Bangkok Post today clarified by saying that " it is not trying to seize control of satellite concessions back from foreign investors". It was also quoted as saying " the governement will explore the possibility of buying- back the satellite concessions".

Clearly cost will be a major hurdle here but if they confiscated Toxin's asssets and used the proceeds to fund this buy-back it would not only enable them to achieve their wish, it would also be a face saver to Toxin, as later he could always claim he donated them to the nation !

Edited February 18, 2007 by gummy

[pete_r]

hey! laws are suppose to be applied fairly to all people in the country. ...so, let me repeat. what about the DTAC/Ucom situation where telenor of norway has 70% ownership? why are you guys all trying to ignore this question?

..could it be - because this is sonthi's company? the guy who has the television program denouncing all the evil that thaksin has committed? the guy who lead the PAD?

talk about evil.

Yeah, it's ironic that the former leader of the People Alliance for Democracy is now a mouthpiece for an unelected government appointed by the junta...

Regarding the Telenor argument, I think the key issue with Shincorp is the satellites they own, and which are used by the Thai military. Telenor does not control satellites in the same direct way, so they are of little concern to the generals.

As for taking back the satellites for national security: How many armies in the world actually rely on the services of a private telecommunication company for their operations? For security's sake, it would be much better to set up a separate satellite entirely controlled by the army. I believe this is what serious armies do, from the USA to Europe and China.

[thedude]

so many years ago elements of the us gov were trying to stop the sale of global crossing to "the chinese"......... (see below)

However, the Global Crossing buyout by Hutchison Whampoa is drawing fire from inside Capitol Hill. At issue is the role of billionaire Li Ka-Shing, Hong Kong's most well-known businessman, whose companies make up 15 percent of the market capitalization of the Hong Kong stock market.

Li Ka-Shing's empire includes Hutchison Whampoa, Chinese ports, telecom, energy assets and the Panama Canal.

Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, a California Republican, has sent letters to President Bush, the attorney general, the Department of Defense and the investigative arm of Congress demanding an inquiry into the plan, according to Al Santoli, national security adviser to Rohrabacher.

"The purchase of Global Crossing by Li Ka-Shing is another step as his role of a stalker for the People's Republic of China," stated Santoli.

Rep. Rohrabacher claims Li's close connections to the Chinese government should disqualify him from owning Global Crossing's network. Li Ka-Shing's ownership also raises national security issues. Global is a major bidder for U.S. Defense communications contracts.

Global Crossing recently lost a $400 million U.S. defense contract to provide secure communications for the U.S. military. The contract remains a major part of the controversy surrounding the bankrupt telecommunications giant, which also reportedly controls 20 percent of all the fiber-optic cable leaving the United States.

so how many of the people barking about thailand now were on the same horse when america did this?? global crossing was far less startegic to the us than taksins assets he sold are to thailand, but did everyone lose it about the banana republic of the usa (if they did chooose to block the sale...in the end they realized the company was of little staregic value anyway in the grand scheme of things) and the death of foreign investment blah blah blah

oh and lets not forget this other gem out of the us...Chinese investment ignited political controversy last year when a state-owned oil company, CNOOC, sought to purchase Unocal, a second-tier U.S. oil company. The bid ultimately collapsed amid furious congressional opposition.

and i do not want to pick on just the us, many european countries, asian ones, even my own have done similar things in the past, and will do them again in the furture.

it was noted in this forum that indeed s'pore pushed its luck wrt the deal they made with a sitting PM that was flouting some rules and changing others to suit his purposes solely - and if they did not know that then shame on them. given the behaviour of those in power at the time and the obvious conflicts of interest absolutely thailand should be taking another look at this - and at the same time have a chuckle over all the humpty dumpties out there saying the world as thailand knows it will collapse, hahaha give me a break.

sure their could be some more diplomatic language, but the speaker being quoted here is not a diplomat or a politician.

the more interesting thing about this story which you missed out is that Global Crossing was eventually sold to ST Telemedia when Li Ka Shing stepped out of the deal.

who owns ST Telemedia? none other than Temasek!

its interesting that the US government wouldn't sell Global Crossing to China but is okay about Singapore buying it.

very telling of the relationship between Singapore and the US.

more interestingly, it also means that Singapore controls the world's most extensive network of undersea fibre optic cables, ie a huge chunk of the broadband internet access we enjoy here in the pacific region.

very cleverly, they also bought (at distress prices) the future of telecommunications since we are increasingly depending on internet protocols for voice comms, and the fibre optic network provides ready infrastructure.

singapore therefore has the capacity to spy on many other more important countries than thailand. but it doesn't because in all such cases (temasek also owns Australia's Optus, also operating satellites over Australia), they let the local management continue to run the operations, their strategic interests lie in getting investment returns.

Thailand's complaint over spying is therefore laughable in the eyes of the singaporeans when you see the bigger picture.

Many telecoms companies the world over have foreign owners, and in many cases they also operate satellites.

local telco players in Bkk have been selling out their interests to foreigners, not just thaksin. look at the details of who owns DTAC and you can trace it back to the Norweigen government. why is the thai government silent on this?