Legal Scrutiny Over Prayuth’s 86 Billion Baht Handouts

[GarryP]

6 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

The argument lacks any soundness. the world over governments introduce policy to please voters. It is what democracy is all about !

 

This "legal scrutiny" is one prime example why Meechai's constitution has to go as soon as possible. Downright ridiculous that a government cannot handout money to the poor, without fear of legal consequences due to "vote buying". 

 

Meechai and the Junta quite clearly have introduced this law as another vehicle to control the political spectrum. In future, a government with a clear mandate has to watch out using policies like this, as it could constitute "vote buying" and apparently no-one thinks about the consequences of this law. Maybe it is time to count to ten and use brains, instead of screaming vote buying. 

 

It is not vote buying, it is a legitimate policy. Granted, the Junta has no right to waste any tax payer money, due to the lack of a mandate, but future goverments should be allowed to introduce policies like this, without fear of legal consequences. Just as governments the world over can do in true democracies….

But why now? If they had been so generous with their handouts two years ago, no one could have complained (apart from stating the obvious - being hypocritical for saying no to populist policies of PT but then doing the same themselves).  Doesn't it strike you as slightly odd that after being in power for 4 years - or near enough- they only just now introduce these handouts? Just coincidence, perhaps? And pigs can fly? 

[sjaak327]

1 minute ago, GarryP said:

But why now? If they had been so generous with their handouts two years ago, no one could have complained (apart from stating the obvious - being hypocritical for saying no to populist policies of PT but then doing the same themselves).  Doesn't it strike you as slightly odd that after being in power for 4 years - or near enough- they only just now introduce these handouts? Just coincidence, perhaps? And pigs can fly? 

Sure, it isn't a coincidence. But maybe read what I said again, I am talking about the future, and the consequences of this new regulation. 

[GarryP]

13 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Sure, it isn't a coincidence. But maybe read what I said again, I am talking about the future, and the consequences of this new regulation. 

Okay, I see what you are saying. I too want this constitution torn to shreds, the 20 year policy thrown out of the window, and the total control such that you can't fart without senate scrutiny and legal consequences properly addressed. The reins put in place to control all future governments, and military oversight (because ultimately it is their brethren or proxies trying to control everything), need cutting.    

[robblok]

46 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

The argument lacks any soundness. the world over governments introduce policy to please voters. It is what democracy is all about !

 

This "legal scrutiny" is one prime example why Meechai's constitution has to go as soon as possible. Downright ridiculous that a government cannot handout money to the poor, without fear of legal consequences due to "vote buying". 

 

Meechai and the Junta quite clearly have introduced this law as another vehicle to control the political spectrum. In future, a government with a clear mandate has to watch out using policies like this, as it could constitute "vote buying" and apparently no-one thinks about the consequences of this law. Maybe it is time to count to ten and use brains, instead of screaming vote buying. 

 

It is not vote buying, it is a legitimate policy. Granted, the Junta has no right to waste any tax payer money, due to the lack of a mandate, but future goverments should be allowed to introduce policies like this, without fear of legal consequences. Just as governments the world over can do in true democracies….

guess you and i dont see eye to eye i call red redno matter who wears it, but you call red green depending on who does it.

 

Similar actions should be judged similar no matter who does it. I guess its your way not to say anything bad about the Shins.

 

Shin amnesyt = Good according to Sjaak

Junta amnesty - bad according to Sjaak

Popular policies by junta bad according to Sjaak

Popular policies by Shins good according to Sjaak

 

You see nothing wrong with it, guess we see things totally different i judge the event based on what is happening you base it on who is doing it. 

You and your mandate... its funny how much you value it while here it says nothing you cant compare Thai democracy with a western one with checks and balances. Only voting and then not abiding by the rest of the democratic principles does not make it a real democracy. So until that time I will judge things based on what they are doing not who is doing it.

[sjaak327]

12 minutes ago, robblok said:

guess you and i dont see eye to eye i call red redno matter who wears it, but you call red green depending on who does it.

 

Similar actions should be judged similar no matter who does it. I guess its your way not to say anything bad about the Shins.

 

Shin amnesyt = Good according to Sjaak

Junta amnesty - bad according to Sjaak

Popular policies by junta bad according to Sjaak

Popular policies by Shins good according to Sjaak

 

You see nothing wrong with it, guess we see things totally different i judge the event based on what is happening you base it on who is doing it. 

You and your mandate... its funny how much you value it while here it says nothing you cant compare Thai democracy with a western one with checks and balances. Only voting and then not abiding by the rest of the democratic principles does not make it a real democracy. So until that time I will judge things based on what they are doing not who is doing it.

Give it a rest, if you don't understand how wasting tax payer money WITH A MANDATE is not the same thing as wasting tax payer money WITHOUT A MANDATE, then there is no use dicussing this any further. It is not WHO does it, it is under which circumstances stuff gets done. 

 

I never said anything about the policies as such, I just pointed out the FACT that the Junta is doing this without a mandate. Ie. they are wasting tax payer money illegally. Nothing more and nothing less. Same with the amnesty, they have no legal right to award themselves an amnesty. 

 

You should also stop pretending that the Thai democracy was a democracy without checks and balances, the fact that Yingluck's amnesty never became a reality is the best proof those checks and balances did exist, just as they do in western democracies. I know you don't value a mandate, you don't value the Thai electorate, what was it again, they are uneducated and they sell their votes right ? Much better to have a few generals calling the shots, and stealing the country from the Thai electorate and robbing the coffers blind, in a way that would make the Shinawatras look like amateurs. The reason we don't see eye to eye, is because you have no clue whatsoever what is happening.

 

Oh and next time, maybe properly read what I have written. You missed the clue yet again,...

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by sjaak327

[JAS21]

Yes ... but how will the money be distributed ... village head will get a new Merc ... if only everyone received the same ... if only

[robblok]

22 minutes ago, GarryP said:

Okay, I see what you are saying. I too want this constitution torn to shreds, the 20 year policy thrown out of the window, and the total control such that you can't fart without senate scrutiny and legal consequences properly addressed. The reins put in place to control all future governments, and military oversight (because ultimately it is their brethren or proxies trying to control everything), need cutting.    

Of course the constitution has to go it gives the military too much control. However the democratic governments should fight against corruption because without it the fight for control will never end.

 

Do you really believe they will ? I don't and because of it the army will want to keep control as they want their part of the money. With tight controls there will be no profit to be made from being in goverment thus no fights about who is in it and the policies would benefit the country.

 

Now all i see is people lined up to fill their pockets who certainly wont make any laws to curb their chances to steal.

 

The countr will be in an endless circle of violence until this is sorted out.. but the players will not do it. This has been proven as the old parties have all failed. I hope future forward does something but they wont get many votes and if they do its still not a sure thing. 

 

IMHO democracy or no democracy nothing will change, the only reason i prefer democracy is that there might be a bit more freedom. But i certainly don't see it solving the other problems with the politicians of the past who are all in it for themselves. Coups don't solve it either so i wont support those anymore i think nothing will change as there are no non corrupt alternatives.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Give it a rest, if you don't understand how wasting tax payer money WITH A MANDATE is not the same thing as wasting tax payer money WITHOUT A MANDATE, then there is no use dicussing this any further. It is not WHO does it, it is under which circumstances stuff gets done. 

 

I never said anything about the policies as such, I just pointed out the FACT that the Junta is doing this without a mandate. Ie. they are wasting tax payer money illegally. Nothing more and nothing less. Same with the amnesty, they have no legal right to award themselves an amnesty. 

 

You sound like a little child, not getting what it wants. 

No Sjaak IMHO you sound like that hiding behind a mandate.

 

Mandate or no mandate waste is waste that is the thing you don't seem to get.

 

I expect more from a government then that it fills it own pockets. I would gladly agree with you if the democracy was at European levels. But it is not. I expect policies that are sustainable, that bring a country further. Not policies that are just there to buy votes wasting money not bringing the country forward. I gave the Maladives as an example a few times and you ignore it as it shows how your beloved democracy fails when its not mature and the Thai democracy is not.  That is why i judge things on what is happening not on a mandate because half a democracy is not a true democracy and leaves the door open for loads of trouble and waste.

 

But lets agree to disagree. We got a totally different idea about things. 

[sjaak327]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

No Sjaak IMHO you sound like that hiding behind a mandate.

 

Mandate or no mandate waste is waste that is the thing you don't seem to get.

 

I expect more from a government then that it fills it own pockets. I would gladly agree with you if the democracy was at European levels. But it is not. I expect policies that are sustainable, that bring a country further. Not policies that are just there to buy votes wasting money not bringing the country forward. I gave the Maladives as an example a few times and you ignore it as it shows how your beloved democracy fails when its not mature and the Thai democracy is not.  That is why i judge things on what is happening not on a mandate because half a democracy is not a true democracy and leaves the door open for loads of trouble and waste.

 

But lets agree to disagree. We got a totally different idea about things. 

As if all western governments introduce sustainable policies ! Wake up please, there is not much difference between there and here. The main difference is that over here, some part of the population cannot accept others calling the shots, and have the militairy to settle these things. 

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by sjaak327

[sjaak327]

10 minutes ago, robblok said:

Of course the constitution has to go it gives the military too much control. However the democratic governments should fight against corruption because without it the fight for control will never end.

 

Do you really believe they will ? I don't and because of it the army will want to keep control as they want their part of the money. With tight controls there will be no profit to be made from being in goverment thus no fights about who is in it and the policies would benefit the country.

 

Now all i see is people lined up to fill their pockets who certainly wont make any laws to curb their chances to steal.

 

The countr will be in an endless circle of violence until this is sorted out.. but the players will not do it. This has been proven as the old parties have all failed. I hope future forward does something but they wont get many votes and if they do its still not a sure thing. 

 

IMHO democracy or no democracy nothing will change, the only reason i prefer democracy is that there might be a bit more freedom. But i certainly don't see it solving the other problems with the politicians of the past who are all in it for themselves. Coups don't solve it either so i wont support those anymore i think nothing will change as there are no non corrupt alternatives.

Did it ever occur to you that over here, people don't really care about corruption. That it is a way of life, that it is ingrained into all fabrics of society ? Maybe that realization will once open your eyes. Maybe in a decade or so.

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Did it ever occur to you that over here, people don't really care about corruption. That it is a way of life, that it is ingrained into all fabrics of society ? Maybe that realization will once open your eyes. Maybe in a decade or so.

did it ever occur to you that the fights are all about the control of money that is gained by corruption. Fight it and your beloved democracy can mature. Its the cause of the problems here and will keep causing problems. Maybe you should open your eyes, as long as its profitable they will do anything to get in power.  Maybe now you understand why I am against corruption. When nothing is done the violence will go on and on because its not about political ideals but about control of the money.

[robblok]

12 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

As if all western governments introduce sustainable policies ! Wake up please, there is not much difference between there and here. The main difference is that over here, some part of the population cannot accept others calling the shots, and have the militairy to settle these things. 

 

Its not about calling the shots.. they could care less.. its about access to the treasury and steal from it by way of corruption. If that was not possible they could care less who is in power. 

[sjaak327]

Just now, robblok said:

Its not about calling the shots.. they could care less.. its about access to the treasury and steal from it by way of corruption. If that was not possible they could care less who is in power. 

Of course it is about access to the treasury, the side in power automatically has access to the treasury !

 

I happen to believe, that access to the treasury should be granted by winning elections, not staging coups. 

[sjaak327]

10 minutes ago, robblok said:

did it ever occur to you that the fights are all about the control of money that is gained by corruption. Fight it and your beloved democracy can mature. Its the cause of the problems here and will keep causing problems. Maybe you should open your eyes, as long as its profitable they will do anything to get in power.  Maybe now you understand why I am against corruption. When nothing is done the violence will go on and on because its not about political ideals but about control of the money.

Democracy can only mature if election results are respected and the system of checks and balances can deal with any transgressions, as they have on numerous occasions in the past. 

[robblok]

8 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Of course it is about access to the treasury, the side in power automatically has access to the treasury !

 

I happen to believe, that access to the treasury should be granted by winning elections, not staging coups. 

So you agree its about stealing money from the threasurey by ways of corruption. Good seems we agree on something. So take away the chance to steal by checks and balances and they wont fight over it again.

 

However nobody will do that as they all want to steal. So it goes on and on and the violence will never end. So They are all part of the problem only those who oppose corruption are not. The old parties are all corrupt so nothing will change.

 

I happen to believe that winning an election does not mean they can plunder the treasury by way of corruption.

[HalfLight]

8 hours ago, quandow said:

This is the litmus test - would he be doing this if it WEREN'T an election year?

 

And if it was blatant populism and vote-buying, would he admit it?

 

Methinks the answer is: 'not while his bottom points to the ground'.

 

 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Democracy can only mature if election results are respected and the system of checks and balances can deal with any transgressions, as they have on numerous occasions in the past. 

Really, because if they worked there would not be so much corruption and no violence. Do give me some examples how it worked and i can assure you that for every time it worked there are 10 times it did not work.

 

I am sure the violence will go on because whoever wins the other side will not agree with it. Too much money at stake. That would not be the case if it functioned like you said.

 

Could you tell me what checks and balances were added during the PTP rule ? I guess none but maybe im wrong. The system is not functioning and they (not only PTP all of them) dont want it to function. 

 

Its actually sad because this will go on and on and will never stop.

[GarryP]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

So you agree its about stealing money from the threasurey by ways of corruption. Good seems we agree on something. So take away the chance to steal by checks and balances and they wont fight over it again.

 

However nobody will do that as they all want to steal. So it goes on and on and the violence will never end. So They are all part of the problem only those who oppose corruption are not. The old parties are all corrupt so nothing will change.

 

I happen to believe that winning an election does not mean they can plunder the treasury by way of corruption.

But who is doing the checking? The worst thieves this side of the Suez. The military. 

 

Democracy can never develop if you are prepared to grant absolute oversight to one particular group (the military) because if that group is not already at the trough, it soon will be and will be serving its own interests. 

 

Democracy needs to be given a chance, something that has never really happened here. And screaming that corruption needs to be controlled before we can proceed with a democratic government will never get this country anywhere. We can't stop corruption overnight. 

 

Propose something practical.    

[sjaak327]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

So you agree its about stealing money from the threasurey by ways of corruption. Good seems we agree on something. So take away the chance to steal by checks and balances and they wont fight over it again.

 

However nobody will do that as they all want to steal. So it goes on and on and the violence will never end. So They are all part of the problem only those who oppose corruption are not. The old parties are all corrupt so nothing will change.

 

I happen to believe that winning an election does not mean they can plunder the treasury by way of corruption.

I agree, and in the past, people plundering the treasury have been dealt with. So not sure what the problem is exactly. The system WAS working just fine. Only junta apologist are trying to claim it did not work. And what they got in place of this system. Stealing without any checks and balances. Again, the situation became progressively worse. Despite all the warnings. You still refuse to listen. Some people never ever learn. 

[sjaak327]

Just now, GarryP said:

But who is doing the checking? The worst thieves this side of the Suez. The military. 

 

Democracy can never develop if you are prepared to grant absolute oversight to one particular group (the military) because if that group is not already at the trough, it soon will be and will be serving its own interests. 

 

Democracy needs to be given a chance, something that has never really happened here. And screaming that corruption needs to be controlled before we can proceed with a democratic government will never get this country anywhere. We can't stop corruption overnight. 

 

Propose something practical.    

Exactly my point. But Rob just hates politicians, so he prefers the militairy. That they are vastly more corrupt than the politicans could ever hope to be, is something he has yet to learn. 

[sjaak327]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

Really, because if they worked there would not be so much corruption and no violence. Do give me some examples how it worked and i can assure you that for every time it worked there are 10 times it did not work.

 

I am sure the violence will go on because whoever wins the other side will not agree with it. Too much money at stake. That would not be the case if it functioned like you said.

 

Could you tell me what checks and balances were added during the PTP rule ? I guess none but maybe im wrong. The system is not functioning and they (not only PTP all of them) dont want it to function. 

 

Its actually sad because this will go on and on and will never stop.

Sorry, the 2007 constitution was full of checks and balances, remember it was yet another constitution drafted by a junta ! It was so bad, that Samak had to resign due to his appearance in a cooking show. According to the NACC it constituted a conflict of interest ! Absolute <deleted> of course. 

 

Do not pretend that subsequent PTP government had free reign, they never had. Only now the government du jour has free reign. 

[zzaa09]

17 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Democracy can only mature if election results are respected and the system of checks and balances can deal with any transgressions, as they have on numerous occasions in the past. 

Yes...

Yet, in this particular instance, deep grafted scallawaggery doesn't change it's spots - never has. 

Akin to attempting to save a diseased tree by trimming away selected limbs, but the rooted based remains rotted to the core and continues to perpetuate itself. The tree, roots 'n all, need to be completely dispensed of. 

 

The simple metaphor befits and reflects contemporary Thai history, yet no one seems to grasping the rhymes and reasons as to the repeated instigation - root cause and effect. 

[robblok]

Sorry, the 2007 constitution was full of checks and balances, remember it was yet another constitution drafted by a junta ! It was so bad, that Samak had to resign due to his appearance in a cooking show. According to the NACC it constituted a conflict of interest ! Absolute of course. 
 
Do not pretend that subsequent PTP government had free reign, they never had. Only now the government du jour has free reign. 

You carefully avoided all my questions as it would have meant you had to accept that its not a true democracy here and the checks and balances dont work.

The Samak case was idiotic and misuse of a good law. You know the kind we have back home to avoid conflicts of interest. But it was misused.

Anyway i stand with my opinion that this is not a real functioning democracy.

I also stand by my opinion that as long as there are no good checks and balances to counter corruption by politicians the violence will go on forever as there is too much money at stake.

That is why i am so against corruption it fuels the coups, bombings and street protests.

The political violence has nothing to do with ideology (just watch all those people switch sides) but only with money.

There might be a few that believe in what they say but i believe they are outnumbered by the ones going after money.

I wont support coups any more but at the same time i have little faith in this "pretend" democracy as a real democracy has working checks and balances and the PTP and others have shown no respect for democracy when it does not suit them.

Your mandate theory is true in a working democracy and IMHO its not the case here.

You might remember PTP members voting for absent members. That is illegal and was denied even when caught on video.not to forget sending the opposition home and holding a voting session in secret or changing details in the law bill between readings.

I see dark times ahead the violence won't go and who knows an other coup will happen.

I know that solving corruption is hard but so is making a real democracy with checks and balances from what we have here.

The only good thing is that the junta changed voting to be more in line with what we have in the Netherlands leaving a system that favoured big parties. Its still far from perfect but at least small new parties can grow something that was much harder in the old system.

If anything this could bring change as the old parties have all failed.

Right now only the junta or PTP stand a chance i consider them both evil but the PTP is the lesser evil. I hope they win i will then be commenting on their corruption and failings as i feel voted in does not mean they have the right to steal.

I bet you that they won't change any of the oppressive laws but use them against their enemies.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[sjaak327]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

You carefully avoided all my questions as it would have meant you had to accept that its not a true democracy here and the checks and balances dont work.

The Samak case was idiotic and misuse of a good law. You know the kind we have back home to avoid conflicts of interest. But it was misused.

Anyway i stand with my opinion that this is not a real functioning democracy.

I also stand by my opinion that as long as there are no good checks and balances to counter corruption by politicians the violence will go on forever as there is too much money at stake.

That is why i am so against corruption it fuels the coups, bombings and street protests.

The political violence has nothing to do with ideology (just watch all those people switch sides) but only with money.

There might be a few that believe in what they say but i believe they are outnumbered by the ones going after money.

I wont support coups any more but at the same time i have little faith in this "pretend" democracy as a real democracy has working checks and balances and the PTP and others have shown no respect for democracy when it does not suit them.

Your mandate theory is true in a working democracy and IMHO its not the case here.

You might remember PTP members voting for absent members. That is illegal and was denied even when caught on video.not to forget sending the opposition home and holding a voting session in secret or changing details in the law bill between readings.

I see dark times ahead the violence won't go and who knows an other coup will happen.

I know that solving corruption is hard but so is making a real democracy with checks and balances from what we have here.

The only good thing is that the junta changed voting to be more in line with what we have in the Netherlands leaving a system that favoured big parties. Its still far from perfect but at least small new parties can grow something that was much harder in the old system.

If anything this could bring change as the old parties have all failed.

Right now only the junta or PTP stand a chance i consider them both evil but the PTP is the lesser evil. I hope they win i will then be commenting on their corruption and failings as i feel voted in does not mean they have the right to steal.

I bet you that they won't change any of the oppressive laws but use them against their enemies.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
 

What questions did I ignore ? Again corruption in Thailand is not exclusively a political matter. It is ingrained into the society on every level. Corruption and democracy aren't mutually exclusive. To tackle corruption, we are talking about a process that will take decades. The question you should ask yourself is who benefits if corruption was totally absent in Thailand, or say at a level comparable to the west. Almost everyone would be a looser. And that's exactly why it won't be tackled. Not by PTP, not by the democrats, not by the Junta, and sure as hell not by the likes of Suthep. 

 

As to the Samak case, a perfect example how the judiciary is in the pockets of the elites. It was used to turn the screws on that administration, and Prayuth had a prominent role in it's conclusion. Once again a democratically elected government was put out of office by back door deals, and without the consent of the electorate. 

 

The violence has nothing to do with corruption, it happens because of stuff like above. It happens because large parts of the population are made inconsequential. 

 

The 1997 constitution provided for a functioning democracy. But key to any democracy is acceptance over the fact that one party, or a coalition of parties have a clear mandate to introduce or change policies. 4 years later, the electorate can either vote them back into power, or vote some other coalition into power. In Thailand some people seem to think that coups or backroom deals with banned politicians are proper way to change a government, they are quite clearly not. Want to stop violence, start accepting. 

 

And again, the voting system is not more in line with the Netherlands. You make the same mistakes all over again, the Junta has created a convoluted system, and together with the re-drawing of the constituencies, a clear case of trying to Ensure there is no level playing field. And it is not to benefit smaller parties, it is to curtail bigger parties. 

 

As to the PTP winning, I would be very surprised if they are even allowed to participate. It's not the 24th of february yet. And even if they are allowed to stand, and even if they win, I fail to see how they can make much of a difference. Remember, the senate, and the 20 year road map ?

 

Thailand is furhter removed from democracy as ever in the last two decades. And this all because some people seem to believe the rest to be stupid. Lies more bullshit, all to try and justify something that cannot possibly be justified. Some people, such as yourself, fell for it. 

 

I still surprised anyone could be fooled this easily. It's not like Prayuth was white as driven snow !

[Vacuum]

12 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Again corruption in Thailand is not exclusively a political matter. It is ingrained into the society on every level. Corruption and democracy aren't mutually exclusive. To tackle corruption, we are talking about a process that will take decades.

[chama]

Of course it is vote buying, how is one to steal an election without buying votes? Someone is going to get a beatdown for bringing this up!

[candide]

6 hours ago, chama said:

Of course it is vote buying, how is one to steal an election without buying votes? Someone is going to get a beatdown for bringing this up!

Actually the Junta does not really needy it as they will rigg elections in one way or the other. I guess It's more an issue of saving face by getting a minimum of legit votes.

[Sonhia]

Watches and rings spring to mind so does article 44.

 

Untouchable.

 

 

 

 

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and the replies have been removed.  Please keep the discussion of this topic related to the current events listed in the OP rather than hijack the topic back to the never ending discussion about Thaksin/Yingluk.

[jerojero]

Support the poor with proper ongoing social policies. Not this b.S.