How To Approach A Thai If You Think They Are Lying?

[Anthony_Mustang]

When it comes to Thai's I know that "face" is very important.

I have strong suspision I am getting told porkies after recieving an SMS message that obviously wasnt meant for me. Not sure the best way of asking them about it is so they will not loose face.

Any ideas?

Edited February 19, 2007 by Anthony_Mustang

[jumnien]

Don't believe the crap you hear about Thais being special in their desire to save face. Tell a big ugly Swede that he is lying or the same with a hooligan from Manchester and you'll not get something more gentle than from your average Thai.

[tijnebijn]

Always stay relaxed and smile.make a joke about it,like it will not matter they are lying or not to you.

In their response you can sse the truth,whatever the outcome is ,keep smiling.....

I found this working,and believe it is (the thaiway)very natural and non-conflict way of approach any conversation,indded whereever you are in the world.People are people and we are all the same eventually,the thai way,I think,is very smart.

[PeaceBlondie]

My partner and I ran into a professional Thai acquaintance the other day, who proceeded to tell us bald-faced lies to our surprised, smiling faces. We didn't press the point, and we parted company as if no lies had been told. You cannot proceed to 'the truth' which doesn't exist, and you can't accuse them of 'lies' they haven't told. Proceed as if the conversation never took place, as if you have no information on which to extend the relationship.

Here, far more than 'back home' the truth does not matter, or is not the same. Mai bpen rai. But in business dealings, caveat emptor.

[Anthony_Mustang]

Always stay relaxed and smile.make a joke about it,like it will not matter they are lying or not to you.

In their response you can sse the truth,whatever the outcome is ,keep smiling.....

I found this working,and believe it is (the thaiway)very natural and non-conflict way of approach any conversation,indded whereever you are in the world.People are people and we are all the same eventually,the thai way,I think,is very smart.

Thank you Tijnebijn for your sensible reply.

Only problem is that I'm in Australia and they are in Thailand so it's got to be either email or telephone (not my favourie as I always get a bad connection and my accent is very strong that makes it hard to understand) :-(

[DirkGently]

This suggests that they do something else.

If you are unable to press them because of distance, then assume they are and forget asking them to deny it. Thais can stick to their lies even in the face of video footage and 25 witnesses showing them that you know the facts.

I once had a Thai in a shop deny her own name on a receipt.

[jamman]

My partner and I ran into a professional Thai acquaintance the other day, who proceeded to tell us bald-faced lies to our surprised, smiling faces. We didn't press the point, and we parted company as if no lies had been told. You cannot proceed to 'the truth' which doesn't exist, and you can't accuse them of 'lies' they haven't told. Proceed as if the conversation never took place, as if you have no information on which to extend the relationship.

Here, far more than 'back home' the truth does not matter, or is not the same. Mai bpen rai. But in business dealings, caveat emptor.

I think you've got a good understanding of the culture-wide view towards truth in Thailand. Truth does not exist. There is no objective reality that people compare words to. The only thing that exists is what is said. Face is the idea that appearances are what is important - what people think of you is much more important than what you are. Lies are like makeup, if they make a person appear more pretty, that person will use them. They don't have the feeling that the lies make them ugly.

Edited February 19, 2007 by jamman

[Robski]

If in doubt walk away. Sorry, but if its that important that you have to ask the members of this forum err on the side of caution.

[jamman]

This suggests that they do something else.

If you are unable to press them because of distance, then assume they are and forget asking them to deny it. Thais can stick to their lies even in the face of video footage and 25 witnesses showing them that you know the facts.

I once had a Thai in a shop deny her own name on a receipt.

Yes, that is a good tactic. Firstly, do your best to honestly forgive the person for being an ###### about what they are lying about, see it as human nature, genuinely don't be offended, remember the times that you have acted similarly. Explain how you can see their point of view for doing that, in an accepting and non-threatening way. Then since the lie isn't that big a deal to you, they are more free to admit it. But if they will not outright admit it, then just assume it is a lie and act as if their denial is not really registering in your ears - that way they don't have to lose face by being contradictory, and you can just get on with it.

Easier said than done though. Lies really piss me off. Really really piss me off sometimes.

[t.s]

stop the money transfer, admit that you have been had and get on with your life.

if you want to have some fun, send the sms back. but its probably too late for that

[fruittbatt]

My partner and I ran into a professional Thai acquaintance the other day, who proceeded to tell us bald-faced lies to our surprised, smiling faces. We didn't press the point, and we parted company as if no lies had been told. You cannot proceed to 'the truth' which doesn't exist, and you can't accuse them of 'lies' they haven't told. Proceed as if the conversation never took place, as if you have no information on which to extend the relationship.

Here, far more than 'back home' the truth does not matter, or is not the same. Mai bpen rai. But in business dealings, caveat emptor.

I think you've got a good understanding of the culture-wide view towards truth in Thailand. Truth does not exist. There is no objective reality that people compare words to. The only thing that exists is what is said. Face is the idea that appearances are what is important - what people think of you is much more important than what you are. Lies are like makeup, if they make a person appear more pretty, that person will use them. They don't have the feeling that the lies make them ugly.

Wise words from PB and Jamman. It is easy to imagine that OUR (falang) values about "truth-telling" are somehow a virtuous and superior way of dealing with other people. I also attach value to speaking as faithfully as possible.

However, as Jamman points out, in the end there are only words and versions of events. "There is no objective reality". Some people habitually deliberately distort events (lie) in order to avoid trouble. This is not a specifically Thai trait. It exists in every culture, because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us.

I think PB's way of smiling, keeping relations chilled and cordial, but refusing to extend any relationship with a proven liar is a strategy which negotiates both Thai "face-value" and western values very successfully.

[britmaveric]

I dont see the point, prob never get an admission to the lie, so unless you want to waste your time, I suggest you forget it.

[soundman]

When it comes to Thai's I know that "face" is very important.

I have strong suspision I am getting told porkies after recieving an SMS message that obviously wasnt meant for me. Not sure the best way of asking them about it is so they will not loose face.

Any ideas?

Totally depends on your relationship with that person.

- A sales assistant selling you a product & telling a porkie pie - ask to see the sales manger.

- Your staff - Act like the boss you are & lead them to the truth with yes or no questions.

- An equal status family member - Pretend the lie never occured.

- Someone you don't like or need for anything - Be as arrogant & angry as you want.

- A policeman - Better not to lie, if he allready knows the truth.

- Your wife - Up to you.

- become a very good face reader - get a video phone - web cam.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[jamman]

However, as Jamman points out, in the end there are only words and versions of events. "There is no objective reality". Some people habitually deliberately distort events (lie) in order to avoid trouble. This is not a specifically Thai trait. It exists in every culture, because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us.

I think PB's way of smiling, keeping relations chilled and cordial, but refusing to extend any relationship with a proven liar is a strategy which negotiates both Thai "face-value" and western values very successfully.

When I said "There is no objective reality", I meant that to Thais, they don't put importance on an objective reality - their allegience is towards their version, and they don't care very much how their version matches up with facts. Personally I do believe in objective reality, and my allegience is for my versions of it to match up as closely as possible with the facts of sense perceptions.

I see speach as a way of talking about facts, and I don't understand the point of lies. Some people lie about their past, inventing a University education, to look better. I don't get the point of it. I don't use words that way, and can't understand why anyone would. Once you get in the habit of telling the truth, it comes to pass that disonesty loses appeal. Telling the truth as much as possible makes a persons eyes see more clearly, makes his heart more empathetic. Because if one is truthful, one must admit to being an a-hole sometmies, and then one can more easily empathise with all the other a-holes out there. We can all be part of the a-hole club, and are free to critisize and praise each other.

People who habitually lie are equally perplexed at how I use speach. They simply can not comprehend and refuse to believe that a person will habitually tell the truth.

Edited February 19, 2007 by jamman

[kmart]

A reasonable knowledge of body language will identify a person who is lying. I do not tolerate lies from my staff at work, and always try to get obtain truth from simple yes and no questions. Seems to be the easiest way.

[OlRedEyes]

Assume everything is a lie here, until proven otherwise.

Those that so easily deride the value of truth and facts, and try to obfuscate it with statements like "There is no objective reality", would do well to ponder how well and at what speed progress in anything from personal relationships to scientific advances will happen without relying on the truth of statements made.

If there is no solid ground to stand on, the next step cannot be relied on.

[jamman]

Some people habitually deliberately distort events (lie) in order to avoid trouble. This is not a specifically Thai trait. It exists in every culture, because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us.

People in Thailand are much more dependent on others good opinion of them than are people in the west.

The majority of adults in the west respect the development of the individual. In many movies you will see a scene like the one in a Harry Potter movie, where the lead character is at first looked down on, but acts untroubled by this and just goes along with his life, and eventually becomes respected. You never see a character in any western TV show or movie who is portraid as successfully gaining face through deceit. We respect more an honest and imperfect a-hole than a deceitful mr. perfect. Western adults are not dependent on others good opinion. Western teenagers are.

Yes, I want to be loved, respected, admired. But what I want to be admired is ME, not some fictitious representation. It is much more common in Thailand that no difference between self and face is seen.

At a large mountain Buddhist mediation center in Colorado Dzongzar Kyentse Rimpoche gave simple advice - something Dale Carnegie might say. Put forward your worst face - show your ugly side. I've found that this actually makes me more likable than putting forward my best face. I can admit to conservative girls on the first date that while in Thailand I had two or there girlfriends at the same time. Truth doesn't actually put people off. There is not actually any ugliness in us that turns people off, if it is faced with straightforward acceptance and love and humor.

Actually, if people feel that you are comfortable with all your own faults, they are more likely to feel that you will accept them as they are also.

It helps if people teach this, if the culture recognises this. That trying to be likeable through false appearance does not make a person more likeable. Making others feel good does.

Edited February 19, 2007 by jamman

[fruittbatt]

Some people habitually deliberately distort events (lie) in order to avoid trouble. This is not a specifically Thai trait. It exists in every culture, because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us.

People in Thailand are much more dependent on others good opinion of them than are people in the west.

The majority of adults in the west respect the development of the individual. In many movies you will see a scene like the one in a Harry Potter movie, where the lead character is at first looked down on, but acts untroubled by this and just goes along with his life, and eventually becomes respected. You never see a character in any western TV show or movie who is portraid as successfully gaining face through deceit. We respect more an honest and imperfect a-hole than a deceitful mr. perfect. Western adults are not dependent on others good opinion. Western teenagers are.

Yes, I want to be loved, respected, admired. But what I want to be admired is ME, not some fictitious representation.

Ah, but what is the essential YOU, if all we have is words to represent ourselves, as you claim? (We are all trapped in our maze of discourse).

I do not see that idealised Hollywood-code fantasy movie representations of "heroes" bear a lot of resemblance to the reality of our daily lives. Many of the western adult-aged people I have met are extremely dependent on others' good opinions. I grant you that many may not be "adult" in the psychological sense of the word.

[Austhaied]

However, as Jamman points out, in the end there are only words and versions of events. "There is no objective reality". Some people habitually deliberately distort events (lie) in order to avoid trouble. This is not a specifically Thai trait. It exists in every culture, because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us.

I think PB's way of smiling, keeping relations chilled and cordial, but refusing to extend any relationship with a proven liar is a strategy which negotiates both Thai "face-value" and western values very successfully.

When I said "There is no objective reality", I meant that to Thais, they don't put importance on an objective reality - their allegience is towards their version, and they don't care very much how their version matches up with facts. Personally I do believe in objective reality, and my allegience is for my versions of it to match up as closely as possible with the facts of sense perceptions.

I see speach as a way of talking about facts, and I don't understand the point of lies. Some people lie about their past, inventing a University education, to look better. I don't get the point of it. I don't use words that way, and can't understand why anyone would. Once you get in the habit of telling the truth, it comes to pass that disonesty loses appeal. Telling the truth as much as possible makes a persons eyes see more clearly, makes his heart more empathetic. Because if one is truthful, one must admit to being an a-hole sometmies, and then one can more easily empathise with all the other a-holes out there. We can all be part of the a-hole club, and are free to critisize and praise each other.

People who habitually lie are equally perplexed at how I use speach. They simply can not comprehend and refuse to believe that a person will habitually tell the truth.

Spot on ,could not agree more.

[OlRedEyes]

Some people habitually deliberately distort events (lie) in order to avoid trouble. This is not a specifically Thai trait. It exists in every culture, because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us.

People in Thailand are much more dependent on others good opinion of them than are people in the west.

The majority of adults in the west respect the development of the individual. In many movies you will see a scene like the one in a Harry Potter movie, where the lead character is at first looked down on, but acts untroubled by this and just goes along with his life, and eventually becomes respected. You never see a character in any western TV show or movie who is portraid as successfully gaining face through deceit. We respect more an honest and imperfect a-hole than a deceitful mr. perfect. Western adults are not dependent on others good opinion. Western teenagers are.

Yes, I want to be loved, respected, admired. But what I want to be admired is ME, not some fictitious representation. It is much more common in Thailand that no difference between self and face is seen.

At a large mountain Buddhist mediation center in Colorado Dzongzar Kyentse Rimpoche gave simple advice - something Dale Carnegie might say. Put forward your worst face - show your ugly side. I've found that this actually makes me more likable than putting forward my best face. I can admit to conservative girls on the first date that while in Thailand I had two or there girlfriends at the same time. Truth doesn't actually put people off. There is not actually any ugliness in us that turns people off, if it is faced with straightforward acceptance and love and humor.

Actually, if people feel that you are comfortable with all your own faults, they are more likely to feel that you will accept them as they are also.

It helps if people teach this, if the culture recognises this. That trying to be likeable through appearance does not make a person more likeable. Making others feel good does.

A lot of truth in there. And I would seriously take exception to the statement "because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us." Maybe you move in the 'wrong' circles.

[fruittbatt]

I would seriously take exception to the statement "because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us." Maybe you move in the 'wrong' circles.

Yes, I'm a human being!

[jamman]

Ah, but what is the essential YOU, if all we have is words to represent ourselves, as you claim? (We are all trapped in our maze of discourse).

I do not see that idealised Hollywood-code fantasy movie representations of "heroes" bear a lot of resemblance to the reality of our daily lives. Many of the western adult-aged people I have met are extremely dependent on others' good opinions. I grant you that many may not be "adult" in the psychological sense of the word.

I don't claim that all we have is our words to represent ourself. Thais believe this, I do not. I believe that our actions have an objective reality. We can lie, but that doesn't make the words into any sort of truth. The essential ME that I'd like to be admired is nothing more than my body and actions and ideas.

And we are not trapped in a maze of discourse. Language is a tool that we use. We are not the tool. I am not my mental interpretation. That is the whole point of meditation - to dis-identify with thoughts, and embody our being more fully.

Yes, a great many adult aged westerners are still at a teen level of sense of self. The percentage is different in different cultures, and is extremely high in Thailand.

[pampal]

Tell the truth all the time

No one does that

If they claim otherwise they are lying,

the same thing they claim they don't do

Everyone lies at somepoint

If you have a old wrinkled mother, would you walk up to her and say

Oh mother you are so old and wrinkled

I doubt it

Or if your wife is fat,

Do you walk up to her and say "honey you are really fat this time"

Or do you walk up to a Thai cop and say Police in Thailand are corrupt

Don't think so

Telling the truth all the time is a recipe for disaster, in any country

Stop stop bullshitti*g

[OlRedEyes]

Tell the truth all the time

No one does that

If they claim otherwise they are lying,

the same thing they claim they don't do

Everyone lies at somepoint

If you have a old wrinkled mother, would you walk up to her and say

Oh mother you are so old and wrinkled

I doubt it

Or if your wife is fat,

Do you walk up to her and say "honey you are really fat this time"

Or do you walk up to a Thai cop and say Police in Thailand are corrupt

Don't think so

Telling the truth all the time is a recipe for disaster, in any country

Stop stop bullshitti*g

Simple, if the truth cannot be told say nothing, eh?

[jamman]

Tell the truth all the time

No one does that

If they claim otherwise they are lying,

the same thing they claim they don't do

Everyone lies at somepoint

If you have a old wrinkled mother, would you walk up to her and say

Oh mother you are so old and wrinkled

I doubt it

Or if your wife is fat,

Do you walk up to her and say "honey you are really fat this time"

Or do you walk up to a Thai cop and say Police in Thailand are corrupt

Don't think so

Telling the truth all the time is a recipe for disaster, in any country

Stop stop bullshitti*g

I usually tell the truth.

Whenever a habitual lier talks about the value of truth, he always brings the topic around to diplomacy. Telling the truth applies to all situations, not just diplomatic ones.

And I can't remember ever telling a diplomatic lie. They are not needed. You can be diplomatic with the truth without being harsh or hurtful. Lying is simply not necessary for diplomacy.

I think you'd find life much more fun and interesting if you take on the challenge of telling the truth as much as possible. You'll find it is possible in situations that you thought it wasn't. The challenge of replying honestly to the question of "do you think i'm fat?" with an answer that makes the person feel good is a fun challenge. I always answer honestly, and have never had the impression that I made the person feel bad - quite the contrary - I manage to make the person feel loved and accepted, while making it plain that I don't want them to get too fat.

Edited February 19, 2007 by jamman

[fruittbatt]

Assume everything is a lie here, until proven otherwise.

Those that so easily deride the value of truth and facts, and try to obfuscate it with statements like "There is no objective reality", would do well to ponder how well and at what speed progress in anything from personal relationships to scientific advances will happen without relying on the truth of statements made.

If there is no solid ground to stand on, the next step cannot be relied on.

Truth is subjective and personal: just ask two people for their account of the same event and compare the difference in their perceptions and recall. You are onto something important when you say "relying on the truth of statements"....that is a country mile away from the claming the actual "absolute truth" of the statements themselves. you are talking about hypothesis and belief as a basis for action, not about an objective reality or truth at all.

[jamman]

Assume everything is a lie here, until proven otherwise.

Those that so easily deride the value of truth and facts, and try to obfuscate it with statements like "There is no objective reality", would do well to ponder how well and at what speed progress in anything from personal relationships to scientific advances will happen without relying on the truth of statements made.

If there is no solid ground to stand on, the next step cannot be relied on.

Truth is subjective and personal: just ask two people for their account of the same event and compare the difference in their perceptions and recall. You are onto something important when you say "relying on the truth of statements"....that is a country mile away from the claming the actual "absolute truth" of the statements themselves. you are talking about hypothesis and belief as a basis for action, not about an objective reality or truth at all.

You don't have to believe that our ideas can match our perceptions so perfectly as to create "Absolute Truth" for the concept of lying and telling the truth to have meaning.

Sure truth is relative. So what and big deal. Being as accurate as possible is valuable when using language to have a clear mental map of what is going on around you, and in expressing what is going on.

Edited February 19, 2007 by jamman

[OlRedEyes]

I would seriously take exception to the statement "because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us." Maybe you move in the 'wrong' circles.

Yes, I'm a human being!

Not a response up to your usual standard. I'm surprised.

I would not have made any comment on the original statement had it not contained 'we are all'. I certainly know many, many people who live their lives by the truth, very successfully. And we are human, I think.

As Jamman points out, diplomacy doesn't have to contain lies.

[OlRedEyes]

Truth is subjective and personal: just ask two people for their account of the same event and compare the difference in their perceptions and recall. You are onto something important when you say "relying on the truth of statements"....that is a country mile away from the claming the actual "absolute truth" of the statements themselves. you are talking about hypothesis and belief as a basis for action, not about an objective reality or truth at all.

Maybe i'm missing your point completely, but it seems to me what you are talking about is perception, not objective fact. Whether the statement emanating from perception is truth, would depend whether it is true to the perception, is it not? In fact, it is belief, not truth.

Truth is pretty simple. Obfuscation of this rings alarm bells.

[fruittbatt]

Ah, but what is the essential YOU, if all we have is words to represent ourselves, as you claim? (We are all trapped in our maze of discourse).

I do not see that idealised Hollywood-code fantasy movie representations of "heroes" bear a lot of resemblance to the reality of our daily lives. Many of the western adult-aged people I have met are extremely dependent on others' good opinions. I grant you that many may not be "adult" in the psychological sense of the word.

I don't claim that all we have is our words to represent ourself. Thais believe this, I do not. I believe that our actions have an objective reality. We can lie, but that doesn't make the words into any sort of truth. The essential ME that I'd like to be admired is nothing more than my body and actions and ideas.

And we are not trapped in a maze of discourse. Language is a tool that we use. We are not the tool. I am not my mental interpretation. That is the whole point of meditation - to dis-identify with thoughts, and embody our being more fully.

Yes, a great many adult aged westerners are still at a teen level of sense of self. The percentage is different in different cultures, and is extremely high in Thailand.

By saying that we are trapped in a maze of discourse, I meant that we - all of us human beings - Thai, falang, whoever, represent ourselves through language(s). In this forum language is our only tool for representing ourselves and our ideas (apart from the avatar).

I do not understand how it is possible for you to generalise about "Thais" as largely psychologically immature or as all sharing the belief that words are all we have to represent ourselves. How do you know? What is your objective basis for making such statements?