US Embassy reminder: Income affidavits for visas to cease Jan 1

[sumrit]

10 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

I can't help thinking that you and a few others are going to be disappointed when immigration come up with...................... nothing!

 

If you think that they are going to accept sight of bank statements showing 65,000 Baht passing through every month, then I think you are in for a shock. Do you really think they can fathom what goes in and out of a bank account ? Do you really think they can be arsed?  Do you thatthink that they will accept a lesser reassurance when they were seeking certifications from embassies?

 

The line from immigration at the moment is that money is the bank is the only acceptable method once they no longer have embassy letters.

4

Where have immigration said that?????

 

Immigration have never said that at all. As far as I know, in Phuket Immigration have issued one statement suggesting the 800k baht, seasoned in a Thai bank, as  AN alternative method But they have NEVER said it was the ONLY acceptable method.

 

 

[Jip99]

5 minutes ago, sumrit said:

Where have immigration said that?????

 

Immigration have never said that at all. As far as I know, in Phuket Immigration have issued one statement suggesting the 800k baht, seasoned in a Thai bank, as  AN alternative method But they have NEVER said it was the ONLY acceptable method.

 

 

 

Once the embassy letters have gone there IS only one available method.

 

Read the other threads on the income letter for evidence of other immigration offices stating that they are not aware of any 'replacement' for the embassy letter.

 

 

Simples,......... there were 2 options, 1 was taken away  =  1 option.

 

 

Please list any other options that Phuket, or elsewhere, have made you aware of.

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, Jip99 said:

Read the other threads on the income letter for evidence of other immigration offices stating that they are not aware of any 'replacement' for the embassy letter.

You should really add at this time to your post since the Immigration Bureau has said nothing yet about the issue. Anything said by a local office really means nothing at this time.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Glenn Roe said:

Embassies not giving verification letters is caused by the embassies and not the Thai Immigration, so why do so many automatically assume that TI will no longer accept income verification letters from Thai banks? 

Because most who have tried that recently have been told by their IOs "No embassy letter, then no income-based extension."  There was one exception reported to-date (Mukdahan - see link below).

 

1 hour ago, pookiki said:

Jack - Please review the post I made some time ago:

I read it - and thanks for your effort on this.  I am not giving the embassies a "pass" because of the unknowns.  But, given Thai immigration is set to rake in unprecedented "agent money" as a result of this change, and given my experiences with some of their officers trying to push me to agents, I am inclined to think they may have played a significant part in bringing about the end of embassy-letters (from the 4 embassies thus far).

Who knows what will happen with letters offered from other embassies which are generated next year  - maybe nothing, if the increase in agent-money from UK, USA and AU expats keeps them happy awhile - but maybe not.  Perhaps some embassies actually contact income-sources and verify amounts - but I doubt many, if any, do this.

 

44 minutes ago, jesimps said:

As far as I know, no one so far has managed to get a one year visa extension without the embassy letter. If you know different, please tell us the details because myself and many more on here are anxious to know.

One case - Mukdahan office - reported here.  No others that I have seen.

 

[luckyluke]

T.I. directives are very clear and uncomplicated :

a letter from a Thai bank,

or a letter from an embassy.

 

However some posters here seriously expect that T.I. will come with something more complicated, only for the benefit of a minority ( an unknown % from 4 nationalities ).

 

I doubt very much that T.I. is that considerate.

[sumrit]

1 minute ago, Jip99 said:

 

Once the embassy letters have gone there IS only one available method.

 

Read the other threads on the income letter for evidence of other immigration offices stating that they are not aware of any 'replacement' for the embassy letter.

 

 

Simples,......... there were 2 options, 1 was taken away  =  1 option.

 

 

Please list any other options that Phuket, or elsewhere, have made you aware of.

 

I'll repeat, where have Immigration said that? They haven't!!!

 

The monthly income option hasn't been taken away by Immigration As an option It's still in their rules.

 

All we have had is supposition from people on here by people WHO SIMPLY DON'T KNOW.

 

and there has been no official statement from any Immigration office stating: "Read the other threads on the income letter for evidence of other immigration offices stating that they are not aware of any 'replacement' for the embassy letter." as you imply.

Show us an official statement from one office that says that.

 

 

[Pattaya46]

20 minutes ago, sumrit said:

I'll repeat, where have Immigration said that? They haven't!!!

The monthly income option hasn't been taken away by Immigration As an option It's still in their rules.  //

Unsure what you are fighting for ?

Nobody said that this option has been taken away !

You just need to have an embassy letter... 

[JLCrab]

19 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Nobody said that this option has been taken away !

You just need to have an embassy letter... 

So I guess what you may be implying here is that, since there may still or always be embassies willing to issue income affidavits for their citizens, there will be no need for Thai IMM to have any means available for extension via evidence of monthly income for citizens of those countries whose embassies will no longer issue such affidavits?

[Pattaya46]

^ @JLCrabNo, I just indicate how are the rules as of today. I have no knowledge and no idea about IF and HOW Thai Immigration can change its regulations in the future.

[Leatherneck]

4 hours ago, wgdanson said:

How do you know it was 'the other documents' and not the affidavit, when the Immgration law requires the affidavit and not bank statements?

The immigration officer said so to my agent...while I was standing there. I would not have gotten my extension without the other documents. The affidavit was still required at that time but according to the officer was insufficient...and the other documents were. My uneducated guess is that if the embassies are no longer issuing the affidavits next year, immigration will have to use other documents (like the ones I provided which actually provide more proof that 1. I have a monthly govt pension of a sufficient amount and 2. it is deposited monthly into a Thai bank account)...,or they will be throwing most of us outta here next year.

[JLCrab]

14 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

^ @JLCrabNo, I just indicate how are the rules as of today. I have no knowledge and no idea about IF and HOW Thai Immigration can change its regulations in the future.

And I have said multiple times on multiple topics that such a method does not exist as of today. But I do not think it would be any big deal for Thai IMM, given the wording of the current Police Order, to put in a method to do so.

 

Of course, there are those on here who seem to hope that they won't.

 

Personally, as I have been using the monthly income affidavit route for extension of stay for the last 10 years, I hope that somehow that method will be continued sans Income affidavit. However, I have already purchased my ticket to go back to USA (as I was going anyway) in time to get an OA well before my current extension runs out.

Edited December 14, 2018 by JLCrab

[lopburi3]

And more openings just became available at US Embassy:

 

Quote

 

The Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok is pleased to offer a full-day of notarial services.

 

Date:  December 20, 2018.

Time:  0730-1400

Place: US Embassy Bangkok 95 Wireless Road, Bangkok

 

           

There will be approximately 400 notarial appointments available. All services will be provided by appointment only.  Please visit us here to make an appointment. 

 

Fees for notary services are $50.00 USD or 1700 Thai Baht per notarial stamp.

 

To expedite your service, please bring exact change or consider paying by credit card to facilitate the movement of people through their appointments.

 

Please arrive with your passport, a copy of your passport and documents filled-out completely, correctly, and NOT signed. Documents can be accessed through these links: Notary– including Income Affidavits

 

 

[Chongalulu]

22 hours ago, Just1Voice said:

Oh, really?  Well, <removed>, my next door neighbor just happens to work at Chiang Mai Immigration, and according to him, I'm more than covered.  <removed>

A bloke down the pub said..... That’s all that means -official Thai Immigration rules requires income letter and that’s all that’s acceptable until they change that.

[keithet]

25 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

And more openings just became available at US Embassy:

 

 

Last month I made a appointment with US embassy for Dec. 27 wasn't sure how fast appointments would fill up. 

One interesting thing I see is they want a copy of passport. Was never asked for that before. 

[jimn]

3 hours ago, spiroinusa1 said:

The American and British representatives of a signed petition of retirement visa holders should asked for a meeting with the head of immigration and explain to him that the embassy letter never meant anything except you swore your stated income on the letter was true. What would be better are letters of documentation from VA, SS,or Pension Bureaus  from companies, city,state, towns sent to the Pensioner as proof he receives a pension, or some other valid letter regarding income you receive validly. That should be good enough for Thai Authorities. Where is the organization. Why can't this be done. I live in Chiang Dao with family and med. needs or I would volunteer. There are a lot of you who just sit around with little to do. It would be a service to you and a lot of the ex-pat community.

Wrong. The Americans swore an Aiffidavit, the Aussies did a Stat Dec, both open to abuse. We Brits had to send proof of our income to get the embassy letter. Although they couldnt verify the income its a far nearer to actual verification then the other 2. I do not know any cases where false proof of income was provided to the British Embassy. In my opinion this was all caused by the people who lied on the affidavit or Stat Dec.

[pookiki]

25 minutes ago, jimn said:

Wrong. The Americans swore an Aiffidavit, the Aussies did a Stat Dec, both open to abuse. We Brits had to send proof of our income to get the embassy letter. Although they couldnt verify the income its a far nearer to actual verification then the other 2. I do not know any cases where false proof of income was provided to the British Embassy. In my opinion this was all caused by the people who lied on the affidavit or Stat Dec.

Any procedure is open to fraud or abuse.  If people were lying, who would know unless something was suspect to Thai immigration officials?  If it was, then they should have rejected the embassy letter.  The more open and corrupt fraud is using an agent to get the extension of stay.  This fraud most likely occurs more often than people lying to get their embassy letter.

 

There was no basis to stop the affidavits/Stat Dec or other letters.  And only four embassies which have done so.  If it was such a big issue to the Thai authorities, it would seem they would have demanded an immediate stop by the entire embassy community in Thailand. Any why did the Danish Embassy put and immediate stop to the issuance of the affidavits? 

 

For some reason, which will probably never be known to us, these four embassies decided to no longer provide a valuable service to their citizens.

[sumrit]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

Unsure what you are fighting for ?

Nobody said that this option has been taken away !

You just need to have an embassy letter... 

Please show me where an Embassy letter is a must.........there is no mention of an Embassy letter.

Visa Extension - In the case of Marriage or of being a family member of a Thai national - Immigration.pdf

Visa Extension - In the case of retirement - Immigration.pdf

[jacko45k]

6 hours ago, sumrit said:

Coming up with a more secure method of 'verifying income' and making proof of income an 'extension requirement' would solve a lot of the illegal working and dodgy financial issues around extensions that have been happening. 

So people living off savings, with near zero income, be damned?

Or Elite Visas only?

[Pattaya46]

4 minutes ago, sumrit said:

Please show me where an Embassy letter is a must....... there is no mention of an Embassy letter.

<>

It's not in Immigration Laws, but in an internal regulation.

You can see it there by example : Bangkok Immigration FAQ, point 22

"- Letter from the applicant’s Embassy or consulate in Thailand verifying their pension or other income of the applicant which must not be less than 65,000 Baht per month."

[jimn]

41 minutes ago, sumrit said:

Please show me where an Embassy letter is a must.........there is no mention of an Embassy letter.

Visa Extension - In the case of Marriage or of being a family member of a Thai national - Immigration.pdf

Visa Extension - In the case of retirement - Immigration.pdf

Where on earth have you been? This has been discussed and answered many times on the many threads since this debacle started.

[JLCrab]

From post #1 this topic: The US Embassy in Bangkok is reminding US citizens that the US Mission in Thailand will cease providing income affidavits and will not notarise previous versions of the income affidavit from Jan 1.

 

So the real questions it seems to me per this topic is whether a Yank, who for whatever reason is not able to get an income affidavit prior to JAN 1 2019, will be able in the future to get an extension of stay based upon 'evidence' of 65K+ baht monthly income utilizing some method without the use of an income affidavit from the US Embassy.

Edited December 14, 2018 by JLCrab

[sumrit]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

So people living off savings, with near zero income, be damned?

Or Elite Visas only?

Not at all. If you have savings then you'd be able to bring them over on a monthly basis to qualify. Only people with insufficient income and no savings would get caught out.....But these are the people who are probably working illegally and causing the rest of us extension issues anyway.

Edited December 14, 2018 by sumrit

[Jip99]

2 hours ago, jimn said:

  I do not know any cases where false proof of income was provided to the British Embassy. In my opinion this was all caused by the people who lied on the affidavit or Stat Dec.

 

 

There were in fact several cases..

 

There was little due diligence undertaken by the BE and you will notice the wording "Mr Smith states that his income is and he has shown us online bank statements, etc etc......"

 

I would agree - arguably a lot stronger than the affidavits or sat decs.

[Thaidream]

It's rather a moot  point at this time- whose 'fault' it was regarding the Embassy Letters but I have to believe the BE; USA; AU decided jointly to stop the letters and Denmark just followed suit on advice from their Home Minister. 

 

The sad thing in my opinion, is that a reasonable solution could have been found in which the Embassies worked with Thai Imm and assisted them in understanding the difficulty in anyone actually 'verifying' from source- documentation.   I still firmly believe if Thai Imm understood what a sworn document really meant and the criminality attached to it- they would continue to accept the letters as is with the proviso of asking some people for added documentation.

I believe the Embassies saw this as an opportunity to get rid of something they consider 'a pain in the butt'.  At least the Us Embassy is making good on their promise to assist in the transition by going around to the major  Thai Imm offices and explaining  what 'alternate documentation' is and looks like. Actually, they could have done this as a good faith gesture  from the beginning and still issued the Letters.

 

So here we are -waiting for Thai Imm to decide what they will do and I doubt they are in hurry to do anything as from their perspective nothing has changed. I would hope that the few reports we have coming in that the letters are being accepted and that alternate 'documentation' backing up the letter is also being accepted.

 

To me, the real test will come after  Jan 1 when  either  a US citizen;  UK citizen or Australian (after Jan 7) shows up without a letter that they can no longer get- what evidence will be accepted and until  Thai Imm Central makes a firm decision- it may be left to what office a citizen ends up using.  

 

As of now the best info we can hope for is through this website or others reporting back when they  go for  either a retirement or marriage extension  using the income method and the Immigration office they have used.

[jimn]

30 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

There were in fact several cases..

 

There was little due diligence undertaken by the BE and you will notice the wording "Mr Smith states that his income is and he has shown us online bank statements, etc etc......"

 

I would agree - arguably a lot stronger than the affidavits or sat decs.

Fair comment, I did say I hadn't heard. For my part I always provided just my UK P60 which showed my income. Agreed online bank statements can be ammended. But I stand by my thoughts that the problem was with the Affidavit and the Stat Dec. The British Embassy jumped on it as a way to save costs and led the way, causing the main culprits to follow.

[Jip99]

Just now, jimn said:

Fair comment, I did say I hadn't heard. For my part I always provided just my UK P60 which showed my income. Agreed online bank statements can be ammended. But I stand by my thoughts that the problem was with the Affidavit and the Stat Dec. The British Embassy jumped on it as a way to save costs and led the way, causing the main culprits to follow.

 

Jim, I don't buy the cost cutting factor - I didn't on an earlier thread and don't now.

 

At 52 Quid for doing half an hours work, these embassy letters are money spinners - and can produced utilising marginal time.

 

I think the embassy (rightly so) told Immigration that they could not go as far as "certifying" income because they could not 100% guarantee the accuracy of the figures provided. I think a P60 is a good example but it does not alone evidence all the income for a particular applicant. Good enough for immigration IMO.

[rascalman]

So next year there will be many illegals? What is going to happen to decent old fralangs? Jail is not a option for me..... 

Never broke any laws, have done much good here. Do not have that money. 

[wgdanson]

3 hours ago, Leatherneck said:

The immigration officer said so to my agent...while I was standing there. I would not have gotten my extension without the other documents. The affidavit was still required at that time but according to the officer was insufficient...and the other documents were. My uneducated guess is that if the embassies are no longer issuing the affidavits next year, immigration will have to use other documents (like the ones I provided which actually provide more proof that 1. I have a monthly govt pension of a sufficient amount and 2. it is deposited monthly into a Thai bank account)...,or they will be throwing most of us outta here next year.

I would surmise that it was the fact that you had an Agent with you who possibly donated to the IO fund which got you the Extension. And too many uneducated guesses are flying around TVisa, you would be better keeping them to yourself. They will not be throwing anyone with 800k in the bank for 3 months with it there to live on after that. 

[jimn]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 

Jim, I don't buy the cost cutting factor - I didn't on an earlier thread and don't now.

 

At 52 Quid for doing half an hours work, these embassy letters are money spinners - and can produced utilising marginal time.

 

I think the embassy (rightly so) told Immigration that they could not go as far as "certifying" income because they could not 100% guarantee the accuracy of the figures provided. I think a P60 is a good example but it does not alone evidence all the income for a particular applicant. Good enough for immigration IMO.

You make some good points however I will come back to a point I made before in another thread. I come from a previous life as a senior manager in a major UK telecoms company. Something always being looked at was duplication. I am positive that after an audit it was mistakenly believed that the embassy letter was duplication because they believed that an extension " could be granted by proving income into a Thai bank". I am convinced that this played a part. I know £52 is great income but the cost of doing it accounting wise may have been to much. So cease it and you get a saving, as simple as that. I have seen simlar situations many many times.

[Jip99]

6 minutes ago, jimn said:

You make some good points however I will come back to a point I made before in another thread. I come from a previous life as a senior manager in a major UK telecoms company. Something always being looked at was duplication. I am positive that after an audit it was mistakenly believed that the embassy letter was duplication because they believed that an extension " could be granted by proving income into a Thai bank". I am convinced that this played a part. I know £52 is great income but the cost of doing it accounting wise may have been to much. So cease it and you get a saving, as simple as that. I have seen simlar situations many many times.

 

LOL ????

 

I was a senior manager in a UK bank - and I am equally convinced that the revenue line vs marginal costs is the driver. You could apply your argument to ALL services provided by the embassy - stop them all on cost cutting grounds, sack the staff and close the place down.

 

This 'spat' is not about money - the Americans and Aussies didn't stop the affidavits/stat decs on cost cutting grounds.

 

Duplication is a red herring - this is two separate entities. Immigration require the embassy letters as per their rules - no way are they going to allow a softer option. Immigration officers are, IMO, incapable of scrutinising a Thai bank book and accurately identifying an applicants income. Mine ranges from 100,000 Baht to 1,000,000 Baht in any one month.