ICT Minister Rants Against Foreigners

[jayjayjayjay]

Well, you've just proven everybody's point! Moving manufacturing is what (rape and pillage of the lower income earning countries, what have you got to be proud off) coz the wealthier ones are too busy counting the beans from intellectual property they bring........ Sad!

I wasn't proud, but more of happy to know that there will be more jobs created for Thais in the next few years. Thailand is still not in a position to compete in high end industry sectors yet. Bu it's a decent start. You have to be able to walk before you can run. If you are so sad about the situation, then go do something about it.

Well, I am here doing it...and I would hope with your return to Thailand results in the same rather than lipservice.. I must say it is not easy. After 2 years fighting our overseas HQ I have as of Jan 1st started an R&D department in our factory.. We employ 700 Thai's from all levels of education. When I say it is not easy, it is not. I have to hand-feed the Thai staff. I have to explain the most basic of creative ideas... Second, sending samples offshore or bringing back tested item for review from customers are hindered by ridiculous customs regulations and even more ridiculous custom officials. I need a smooth follow of items in and out of the country to ensure R&D develops well. It is an uphill battle!

[ourmanflint]

From the Bangkok Post:

Minister cool on IT

Speaking at the opening of the exhibition, the minister said that it was wrong of Thai people to admire modern technology, which was not developed by Thai people. "It is a fake development because the country is now getting worse as almost everything at the exhibition here is imported and nothing is made by Thais," he said.

The minister stated that "Thai computers" should mean Thais producing component parts, not just assembling, and that they should also design the products.

"It is sad that today we cannot find any Thai products. The technology show here provides foreigners an opportunity to take money from Thai people. To be truly proud, it should show technology that has been developed by Thais," the ICT Minister said.

It seems to me that the minister was indicting the Thai people for being "lazy" and relying too heavily on foreign imports, which is certainly true and can only be a good thing if in the future it leads to improvements in the Thai economy through internal investment.

Thailand is a massive consumer of IT and a negligible producer of IT products, but this is also the case for 90% of the countries in the world, there are very few nations which are volume producers of IT products.

Does that mean that all of our countries should be as ashamed as the Minister is of the Thai people?? Of course not, it's a ridiculous statement from someone who has virtually no understanding of how the IT economy works globally. It does not matter who makes and designs the components, what matters is what is done with these components, how they are used and assembled to create devices that everyone wants.

Certainly companies like Apple and Microsoft mostly use off the shelf components in their products, this does not stop them from innovating. In fact their innovations closely follow breakthroughs from other manufacturers. Thailand could very easily do exactly the same thing if they had the will to do so. There is no need to actually design and develop component parts. The Minister does not seem to understand this basic concept.

As for software, well, here there is no reason at all why Thailand cannot compete, I'm sure there are very many talented Thais residing in Thailand who could create from scratch world class products, yet they do not. Why?? Because there has been no incentive, Thailands economy is a smash and grab style, there is virtually zero forward planning and/or long term strategy that does not involve shaking down foreigners as they step off the plane. This is as far as the fat cats can see, it's easy money.

Thailand is in a mess and it will not move forward one step until such time as the powers that be turn their focus onto the long term future of Thailand, one that is not almost wholly reliant on the cascade effects of mass tourism.

I also think the Minister should reconsider when he says things like "The technology show here provides foreigners an opportunity to take money from Thai people", a truly gobsmacking idiotic thing to say!!

[Bottlerocket]

I think they'll be the first to develop teleportation, because they're the only people I know who want to go from from point A to point B while skipping everything inbetween.

[The Skipper]

Well, you've just proven everybody's point! Moving manufacturing is what (rape and pillage of the lower income earning countries, what have you got to be proud off) coz the wealthier ones are too busy counting the beans from intellectual property they bring........ Sad!

I wasn't proud, but more of happy to know that there will be more jobs created for Thais in the next few years. Thailand is still not in a position to compete in high end industry sectors yet. Bu it's a decent start. You have to be able to walk before you can run. If you are so sad about the situation, then go do something about it.

Well, I am here doing it...and I would hope with your return to Thailand results in the same rather than lipservice.. I must say it is not easy. After 2 years fighting our overseas HQ I have as of Jan 1st started an R&D department in our factory.. We employ 700 Thai's from all levels of education. When I say it is not easy, it is not. I have to hand-feed the Thai staff. I have to explain the most basic of creative ideas... Second, sending samples offshore or bringing back tested item for review from customers are hindered by ridiculous customs regulations and even more ridiculous custom officials. I need a smooth follow of items in and out of the country to ensure R&D develops well. It is an uphill battle!

Cannot even get business supplies thru Thai Customs .. I believe it.

Corruption at it's finest..... We have your stuff, ....You, want your stuff.

Pay sucker.

Seagate recently canceled a major expansionn to Thailand for those same reasons.

Took the business to another Country.

[OlRedEyes]

Please read the article. He didn't say that foreign was bad. He said "It is sad that today we cannot find any Thai products...To be truly proud, it should show technology that has been developed by Thais." and that wasting money on it isn't right. All valid and logical points. Where did he say or even suggest that "foreign's bad"?

ThaiGoon, you are right.

The first time I read the article, I was as outraged as the OP.

Now, having read your posts, and re- read the article, I completely agree with what you have said.

It is becoming clear that we farangs, and also many Thais are coming into these debates with preconcieved notions and prejudices about what we think of each other - especially after recent happenings in the country.

It would do all of us well to take a long deep breath before debating these matters so that the farangs don't automatically assuming that every Thai is a racist, and that Thais assume every foreigner is just here to rape and pillage.

Maybe, except for this:

"The technology show here provides foreigners an opportunity to take money from Thai people. "

That statement reeks of xenophobia. Sorry. And it's a recurring sentiment.

"To be truly proud, it should show technology that has been developed by Thais,"

Another recurring sentiment. The great Thai pride. Not endeavor, progress, then some pride. Just loads of pride up front, not being supported by achievements first. I'm speaking not only of IT or any specific area, across the board.

Pride, especially if founded in thin air, comes before the fall.

I, like many others, would love to settle here and contribute to the country's development and progress, but we are left under NO ILLUSION that we are not really welcome, except where we can just make the Thai feel better about themselves. Pure nationalistic xenophobia, no matter how you spin it.

It's a downward spiral that needs to be broken. Thai frustration that not many foreigners just want to be amazed at their excellence, and foreign insistence that the Thai prove their amazing abilities before being amazed.

[Mobi]

Please read the article. He didn't say that foreign was bad. He said "It is sad that today we cannot find any Thai products...To be truly proud, it should show technology that has been developed by Thais." and that wasting money on it isn't right. All valid and logical points. Where did he say or even suggest that "foreign's bad"?

ThaiGoon, you are right.

The first time I read the article, I was as outraged as the OP.

Now, having read your posts, and re- read the article, I completely agree with what you have said.

It is becoming clear that we farangs, and also many Thais are coming into these debates with preconcieved notions and prejudices about what we think of each other - especially after recent happenings in the country.

It would do all of us well to take a long deep breath before debating these matters so that the farangs don't automatically assuming that every Thai is a racist, and that Thais assume every foreigner is just here to rape and pillage.

Maybe, except for this:

"The technology show here provides foreigners an opportunity to take money from Thai people. "

That statement reeks of xenophobia. Sorry. And it's a recurring sentiment.

"To be truly proud, it should show technology that has been developed by Thais,"

Another recurring sentiment. The great Thai pride. Not endeavor, progress, then some pride. Just loads of pride up front, not being supported by achievements first. I'm speaking not only of IT or any specific area, across the board.

Pride, especially if founded in thin air, comes before the fall.

I, like many others, would love to settle here and contribute to the country's development and progress, but we are left under NO ILLUSION that we are not really welcome, except where we can just make the Thai feel better about themselves. Pure nationalistic xenophobia, no matter how you spin it.

It's a downward spiral that needs to be broken. Thai frustration that not many foreigners just want to be amazed at their excellence, and foreign insistence that the Thai prove their amazing abilities before being amazed.

Yes, you are right, if that is exactly what he said. Presumably the speech was in Thai, so it would be very easy for The Nation to put an anti-foreigner slant in the translation.

He may be have been simply pointing out that Thais should be profiting themselves from technology, rather than let all the profits go out of the country - in other words - "come on guys, let's get a share of this lucrative pie" If his statement was more akin to my version, then I would not say it was xenophobic at all. And again, what is wrong with exhorting Thais to do something themselves that they can be proud of?

I'm not defending this guy per se, and if the translation of his speech is accurate then he should be more careful what he says as a representative of the governement, but who knows for sure? ThaiGoon has given us a very reasoanble explanation for the rest of his speech, so why don't we give him the benefit of the doubt, and restrict our anti Thai invective to those who clearly invite it?

Seems to me the Thai Vs Foreigner thing will never get resolved if everyone become totally polarised in their postions.

Edited February 25, 2007 by Mobi D'Ark

[womble]

There is only one thing holding back Thailand................

The Elite!

They really do not care about the country, they care about how much $ is in their own pockets. After that is taken care of yes they would like to see the country do well so they can be proud and gain face in the eyes of foriegners.

But............

Due to the greed and everyone looking out for no.1 the second priority never gets taken care of.

Until Thailand has a strong leadership that truly cares about it's people and not themselves it will continues as it has done for years in endless cycles of different power groups taking as much as they can in the short time they have at the top until they are pushed away by another group seeking their own personal enrichment.

Proof of this is the current government, they know they only have one year in power, they don't have enough time to bring in many large scale investments to cream off kickbacks so what do they do???

They ruin the whole country and send it towards recession by making ridiculous statements simply to manipulate the markets.

Each time they make one of these statements they are playing the futures markets and short selling and making millions, most think they are stupid, they are far from it............

They simply want to make as much $ as possible in the sort time they have, they do not care about the country or the effect this has on the average Thai, a few hundred people are making millions all the while everyone else is loosing out.

And who will pcik up the pieces?

It will be Thaksin, and that is exactly why nothing is happening to him other than the symbolic trial of his wife and her brother which will come to nothing.

They need this slow process to give legitamacy to their rule all the while they are robbing the coutry blind.

Thaksin will not be punished as they know he will be back and they want him to turn a blind eye to their own missdeeds.

When a certain respected individual passes on we could very well see cival war. Each time the different power groups have gone head to head they have been pushed apart only because of respect for the individual.

We could very well see war between the old Elite and the new business elite.

Thailand will never be able to excell in R&D until those at the top decide they want to help the country more than they want to help themselves.

I love the country and I love the people, I simply cannot stand the elite.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Thailand’s biggest problem in developing is her ever increasing xenophobia. Many countries are envious of the US lead in science, technology and business. Americans did create much of the technology and medical science in use today. But where did many of these American inventors and innovators come from?

• Albert Sabin-Inventor of the oral polio vaccine. American by choice. Born in Russia. Not rich or famous when he arrived.
  
• Werner Von Braun- Lead designer of the rockets that thus far put the only men on the moon. American by choice. Born in Germany.
  
• An Wang-Inventor of the magnetic core memory that made the early advances (pre-integrated circuit) in computers possible. American by choice. Born in China. Wasn’t rich or famous when he emigrated.
  
• Albert Einstein- No explanation needed. . American by choice. Born in Germany.
  
• Admiral Hyman Rickhover –Father of the US Nuclear Navy- American by choice. Born in Russian occupied Poland. Came as a child of a poor family who emigrated to the US in search of a better life.
  
• Hans Joachim Pabst von Ohain-Co-inventor of the jet engine. American by choice. Born in Germany.
  
• Igor Sikorsky- Inventor of the first practical helicopter and designer of the first 4 engine aircraft. Born in the Ukraine- American by choice.
  
• Alexander Graham Bell- Inventor of the telephone. Born and raised in Scotland. Immigrated to America. American by choice.
  
• Vinod Khosla-Venture capitalist and cofounder of Sun Microsytems. Born in India. American by choice.
  
• Jerry Yang- Co-founder of Yahoo. Born Taiwan. American by choice. Arrived in US with his widowed mother at age 10. Not rich. Not famous but became so.
  
• Jen-Hsun Huang - Co-founder of NVIDIA Corp (graphics chips). Born Taiwan. American by Choice. Lived in Thailand at one time when he was young. Moved to America in his youth. Not rich, not famous when he arrived.
  
• Albert Baez- Inventor of the x-ray microscope. Born Mexico. American by choice.
  
• Tuan Vo-Dinh- Inventor and patent holder of optical diagnostic test equipment. Born Vietnam. American by choice. He would have been just another unwanted refugee in Thailand.
  

The list could go on and on.

These Americans were all foreigners. They embraced the US and the US embraced them. Some had already achieved greatness before they immigrated and helped America by refining their earlier inventions. Others were untested. Many came from poor families. The US doesn’t complain when foreigners who have immigrated succeed. In fact the US frequently honors them and holds them up as role models for the entire country.

There are foreigners that would come and embrace Thailand too. But Thailand doesn’t want foreigners to get too comfortable here. Thailand’s xenophobic zeal makes it very difficult for foreigners. The government and the various ministries that make up the government try to make it so difficult for foreigners that it discourages those who might contribute here. In America there is no rigid work permit system. You get the appropriate visa and you can work at any job at any location. Sikorsky worked as a school teacher when he first came to America. Had he come to Thailand today he would have been arrested for thinking about designing aircraft without a work permit before he could have ever opened his aeronautical engineering company. Under Thai law, thinking without a work permit (exerting mental energy) is a violation of the Alien Employment Act.

Even today the US welcomes ordinary immigrants. While the doors are not completely open there are mechanisms for ordinary people to live and work in America. There is a diversity visa program for ordinary citizens not just those with advanced degrees. There are other programs too. Ordinary immigrants to the US contribute in a variety of ways. In the US Indian immigrants own over 35% of all hotels in the US. No one tells them they must have a 51% American partner. No one tells them they cannot manage and control their investment. Try that in Thailand. In the US the government doesn’t pass laws to limit the expansion of Indian owned hotels. These Indians employ native born Americans, buy from native born Americans, pay taxes and serve in the armed forces. Another ethnic group in American closer to Thailand is the Cambodians. Many were kept in refugee camps here before they immigrated to the US. In America they are allowed to freely participate in the economy and many have become successful. In California Cambodian immigrants own over 90% of the donut shops. A well run restaurant or donut shop in American can bring an above average income. Native born Americans haven’t turned out to protest like Thais do when foreign companies succeed here. When people come to America they are not subjected to two tier pricing particularly by the government. They cannot be refused housing or jobs because of their nationality. No one tells them they cannot purchase a home or land. The law requires they be treated in every respect as native born Americans and the law is enforced. About the only thing they can’t do without becoming a naturalized citizen is vote. In the US there are even naturalized citizens who are freely elected politicians. Felix Frankfurter, a naturalized US citizen became a Supreme Court Judge. That would likely never happen in Thailand. Someone would start screaming Foreigner, Foreigner and the mob would join the chorus. In Thailand it is rare when any foreigner, particularly someone of European or African ancestry is allowed to become a naturalized Thai citizen much less run for public office.

Under Thailand’s current system, Bill Gates and Steven Jobs would not be allowed to work here were they just starting out. Why? No university degree. They wouldn’t be the right “quality” for Thailand. Steven Jobs was still a teenager fresh out of high school when and another mere high school graduate started apple. Gates dropped out of Harvard University to found Microsoft. No University degree= no “quality” as far as Thailand is concerned. If you have a good idea and no degree, don’t bring it to Thailand. Thailand only wants “quality” people to contribute the country. Thailand’s xenophobia is the chief cause of her inability to attract the people needed to help create and build an economy. The foreigners come and when Thais see them succeed in opening small business, some of which may become big businesses, the xenophobia sets in. Thailand has some creative and successful people. In the past Thailand had an aircraft manufacturing industry and designed operational production military aircraft. Some Thais have excelled at business innovation and marketing. But without the infusion of foreign intellectual capital to augment the native born talent growth will painfully slow especially when the creative people migrate to other countries where they can join with other creative people in developing ideas and building new enterprises.

In the US much of the creative engine is driven by immigrants. In the US many of the naturalized Americans who become successful give back to their adopted country part of the wealth they have amassed. In Thailand, the native born millionaires and billionaires are seldom seen giving of their wealth to help better the country. Their need for more wealth seems insatiable.

In Thailand the xenophobia and economic nationalism locks out those who would come here and help the country develop. Apologists for the Thai system can try and justify this policy all they want but in the end it is Thailand that will slide further back on the development scale while other countries with more open policies will rapidly advance.

[ourmanflint]

Womble..

I agree with almost everything you've said and it never occurred to me that the gov't would be playing the futures market, but it seems so likely I can't beleive I never thought of it before.

And yes the elite of Thailand are greedy thugs who care very little for their own country.

[robint]

is there no limit as to how stoopid these people can make themselves in public

do they hink that because they speak their private archaic language that evil foreigners will not understand, and furthermore blast the stoopids around the outside world for all to see

even toxin for all his priviledged education over seas learn nothing and continued to make an ass of himself in public.

WOWEE

[Alf Witt]

Thailand’s biggest problem in developing is her ever increasing xenophobia. ................................................................................

................................................................................

...................................................... In Thailand the xenophobia and economic nationalism locks out those who would come here and help the country develop. Apologists for the Thai system can try and justify this policy all they want but in the end it is Thailand that will slide further back on the development scale while other countries with more open policies will rapidly advance.

An excellent post which should be compulsory reading for all Thai's - especially those with any govermnent or administrative responsibility. Also, they should recognise that someone who takes the trouble to try to explain matters to them does so because he/she cares about Thailand and its people. Why don't you offer it to the Post and the Nation?

I am no great fan of the USA, especially in recent years, but its economic growth and the policies that contributed to that cannot be denied.

The Minister was right to encourage Thais to be industrious and to innovate but to do that by knocking other's achievements and economic strength (if the report is accurate) is crassly stupid.

Any comment, Thaigoon?

[Austhaied]

I think they'll be the first to develop teleportation, because they're the only people I know who want to go from from point A to point B while skipping everything inbetween.

:D Superb..And so true..Unfortunately..

[seagull]

Womble..

I agree with almost everything you've said and it never occurred to me that the gov't would be playing the futures market, but it seems so likely I can't beleive I never thought of it before.

And yes the elite of Thailand are greedy thugs who care very little for their own country.

I too agree here. I have not actually ponder on the possibility of market futures manipulation. Yes, great chances that they are doing so.

[womble]

Thailand’s biggest problem in developing is her ever increasing xenophobia. Many countries are envious of the US lead in science, technology and business. Americans did create much of the technology and medical science in use today. But where did many of these American inventors and innovators come from?

• Albert Sabin-Inventor of the oral polio vaccine. American by choice. Born in Russia. Not rich or famous when he arrived.
  
• Werner Von Braun- Lead designer of the rockets that thus far put the only men on the moon. American by choice. Born in Germany.
  
• An Wang-Inventor of the magnetic core memory that made the early advances (pre-integrated circuit) in computers possible. American by choice. Born in China. Wasn’t rich or famous when he emigrated.
  
• Albert Einstein- No explanation needed. . American by choice. Born in Germany.
  
• Admiral Hyman Rickhover –Father of the US Nuclear Navy- American by choice. Born in Russian occupied Poland. Came as a child of a poor family who emigrated to the US in search of a better life.
  
• Hans Joachim Pabst von Ohain-Co-inventor of the jet engine. American by choice. Born in Germany.
  
• Igor Sikorsky- Inventor of the first practical helicopter and designer of the first 4 engine aircraft. Born in the Ukraine- American by choice.
  
• Alexander Graham Bell- Inventor of the telephone. Born and raised in Scotland. Immigrated to America. American by choice.
  
• Vinod Khosla-Venture capitalist and cofounder of Sun Microsytems. Born in India. American by choice.
  
• Jerry Yang- Co-founder of Yahoo. Born Taiwan. American by choice. Arrived in US with his widowed mother at age 10. Not rich. Not famous but became so.
  
• Jen-Hsun Huang - Co-founder of NVIDIA Corp (graphics chips). Born Taiwan. American by Choice. Lived in Thailand at one time when he was young. Moved to America in his youth. Not rich, not famous when he arrived.
  
• Albert Baez- Inventor of the x-ray microscope. Born Mexico. American by choice.
  
• Tuan Vo-Dinh- Inventor and patent holder of optical diagnostic test equipment. Born Vietnam. American by choice. He would have been just another unwanted refugee in Thailand.
  

The list could go on and on.

These Americans were all foreigners. They embraced the US and the US embraced them. Some had already achieved greatness before they immigrated and helped America by refining their earlier inventions. Others were untested. Many came from poor families. The US doesn’t complain when foreigners who have immigrated succeed. In fact the US frequently honors them and holds them up as role models for the entire country.

There are foreigners that would come and embrace Thailand too. But Thailand doesn’t want foreigners to get too comfortable here. Thailand’s xenophobic zeal makes it very difficult for foreigners. The government and the various ministries that make up the government try to make it so difficult for foreigners that it discourages those who might contribute here. In America there is no rigid work permit system. You get the appropriate visa and you can work at any job at any location. Sikorsky worked as a school teacher when he first came to America. Had he come to Thailand today he would have been arrested for thinking about designing aircraft without a work permit before he could have ever opened his aeronautical engineering company. Under Thai law, thinking without a work permit (exerting mental energy) is a violation of the Alien Employment Act.

Even today the US welcomes ordinary immigrants. While the doors are not completely open there are mechanisms for ordinary people to live and work in America. There is a diversity visa program for ordinary citizens not just those with advanced degrees. There are other programs too. Ordinary immigrants to the US contribute in a variety of ways. In the US Indian immigrants own over 35% of all hotels in the US. No one tells them they must have a 51% American partner. No one tells them they cannot manage and control their investment. Try that in Thailand. In the US the government doesn’t pass laws to limit the expansion of Indian owned hotels. These Indians employ native born Americans, buy from native born Americans, pay taxes and serve in the armed forces. Another ethnic group in American closer to Thailand is the Cambodians. Many were kept in refugee camps here before they immigrated to the US. In America they are allowed to freely participate in the economy and many have become successful. In California Cambodian immigrants own over 90% of the donut shops. A well run restaurant or donut shop in American can bring an above average income. Native born Americans haven’t turned out to protest like Thais do when foreign companies succeed here. When people come to America they are not subjected to two tier pricing particularly by the government. They cannot be refused housing or jobs because of their nationality. No one tells them they cannot purchase a home or land. The law requires they be treated in every respect as native born Americans and the law is enforced. About the only thing they can’t do without becoming a naturalized citizen is vote. In the US there are even naturalized citizens who are freely elected politicians. Felix Frankfurter, a naturalized US citizen became a Supreme Court Judge. That would likely never happen in Thailand. Someone would start screaming Foreigner, Foreigner and the mob would join the chorus. In Thailand it is rare when any foreigner, particularly someone of European or African ancestry is allowed to become a naturalized Thai citizen much less run for public office.

Under Thailand’s current system, Bill Gates and Steven Jobs would not be allowed to work here were they just starting out. Why? No university degree. They wouldn’t be the right “quality” for Thailand. Steven Jobs was still a teenager fresh out of high school when and another mere high school graduate started apple. Gates dropped out of Harvard University to found Microsoft. No University degree= no “quality” as far as Thailand is concerned. If you have a good idea and no degree, don’t bring it to Thailand. Thailand only wants “quality” people to contribute the country. Thailand’s xenophobia is the chief cause of her inability to attract the people needed to help create and build an economy. The foreigners come and when Thais see them succeed in opening small business, some of which may become big businesses, the xenophobia sets in. Thailand has some creative and successful people. In the past Thailand had an aircraft manufacturing industry and designed operational production military aircraft. Some Thais have excelled at business innovation and marketing. But without the infusion of foreign intellectual capital to augment the native born talent growth will painfully slow especially when the creative people migrate to other countries where they can join with other creative people in developing ideas and building new enterprises.

In the US much of the creative engine is driven by immigrants. In the US many of the naturalized Americans who become successful give back to their adopted country part of the wealth they have amassed. In Thailand, the native born millionaires and billionaires are seldom seen giving of their wealth to help better the country. Their need for more wealth seems insatiable.

In Thailand the xenophobia and economic nationalism locks out those who would come here and help the country develop. Apologists for the Thai system can try and justify this policy all they want but in the end it is Thailand that will slide further back on the development scale while other countries with more open policies will rapidly advance.

Excellant post!

In America an Actor such as Arnold Swarzenegger who was born in Austria and emigrated to USA could become a high ranking politician and also be seen by some as a possible candidate for the presidency.

He has made millions legally and honestly and he now wants to give back to the community that allowed him to do so well.

This is the American dream.

[Prakanong]

A bit off topic but would they not have to change the constitution to allow Arnold to become President as he was born outside the USA?

Why for him and no-one else or why now and not before.

A cynic in me might think its because the Republicans do not have a decent candidate but the emocrats seem perfectly skilled in shooting themselves in the foot too ;-)

PS: I am not American

[loong]

Thailand’s biggest problem in developing is her ever increasing xenophobia. ................................................................................

................................................................................

...................................................... In Thailand the xenophobia and economic nationalism locks out those who would come here and help the country develop. Apologists for the Thai system can try and justify this policy all they want but in the end it is Thailand that will slide further back on the development scale while other countries with more open policies will rapidly advance.

An excellent post which should be compulsory reading for all Thai's - especially those with any govermnent or administrative responsibility. Also, they should recognise that someone who takes the trouble to try to explain matters to them does so because he/she cares about Thailand and its people. Why don't you offer it to the Post and the Nation?

I am no great fan of the USA, especially in recent years, but its economic growth and the policies that contributed to that cannot be denied.

The Minister was right to encourage Thais to be industrious and to innovate but to do that by knocking other's achievements and economic strength (if the report is accurate) is crassly stupid.

Any comment, Thaigoon?

I have to agree with you, the post by Chiangmaiamerican is an excellent, well thought out piece of writing.

[kriswillems]

Thailand’s biggest problem in developing is her ever increasing xenophobia. Many countries are envious of the US lead in science, technology and business. Americans did create much of the technology and medical science in use today. But where did many of these American inventors and innovators come from?

• Albert Sabin-Inventor of the oral polio vaccine. American by choice. Born in Russia. Not rich or famous when he arrived.
  
• Werner Von Braun- Lead designer of the rockets that thus far put the only men on the moon. American by choice. Born in Germany.
  
• An Wang-Inventor of the magnetic core memory that made the early advances (pre-integrated circuit) in computers possible. American by choice. Born in China. Wasn’t rich or famous when he emigrated.
  
• Albert Einstein- No explanation needed. . American by choice. Born in Germany.
  
• Admiral Hyman Rickhover –Father of the US Nuclear Navy- American by choice. Born in Russian occupied Poland. Came as a child of a poor family who emigrated to the US in search of a better life.
  
• Hans Joachim Pabst von Ohain-Co-inventor of the jet engine. American by choice. Born in Germany.
  
• Igor Sikorsky- Inventor of the first practical helicopter and designer of the first 4 engine aircraft. Born in the Ukraine- American by choice.
  
• Alexander Graham Bell- Inventor of the telephone. Born and raised in Scotland. Immigrated to America. American by choice.
  
• Vinod Khosla-Venture capitalist and cofounder of Sun Microsytems. Born in India. American by choice.
  
• Jerry Yang- Co-founder of Yahoo. Born Taiwan. American by choice. Arrived in US with his widowed mother at age 10. Not rich. Not famous but became so.
  
• Jen-Hsun Huang - Co-founder of NVIDIA Corp (graphics chips). Born Taiwan. American by Choice. Lived in Thailand at one time when he was young. Moved to America in his youth. Not rich, not famous when he arrived.
  
• Albert Baez- Inventor of the x-ray microscope. Born Mexico. American by choice.
  
• Tuan Vo-Dinh- Inventor and patent holder of optical diagnostic test equipment. Born Vietnam. American by choice. He would have been just another unwanted refugee in Thailand.
  

The list could go on and on.

These Americans were all foreigners. They embraced the US and the US embraced them. Some had already achieved greatness before they immigrated and helped America by refining their earlier inventions. Others were untested. Many came from poor families. The US doesn’t complain when foreigners who have immigrated succeed. In fact the US frequently honors them and holds them up as role models for the entire country.

There are foreigners that would come and embrace Thailand too. But Thailand doesn’t want foreigners to get too comfortable here. Thailand’s xenophobic zeal makes it very difficult for foreigners. The government and the various ministries that make up the government try to make it so difficult for foreigners that it discourages those who might contribute here. In America there is no rigid work permit system. You get the appropriate visa and you can work at any job at any location. Sikorsky worked as a school teacher when he first came to America. Had he come to Thailand today he would have been arrested for thinking about designing aircraft without a work permit before he could have ever opened his aeronautical engineering company. Under Thai law, thinking without a work permit (exerting mental energy) is a violation of the Alien Employment Act.

Even today the US welcomes ordinary immigrants. While the doors are not completely open there are mechanisms for ordinary people to live and work in America. There is a diversity visa program for ordinary citizens not just those with advanced degrees. There are other programs too. Ordinary immigrants to the US contribute in a variety of ways. In the US Indian immigrants own over 35% of all hotels in the US. No one tells them they must have a 51% American partner. No one tells them they cannot manage and control their investment. Try that in Thailand. In the US the government doesn’t pass laws to limit the expansion of Indian owned hotels. These Indians employ native born Americans, buy from native born Americans, pay taxes and serve in the armed forces. Another ethnic group in American closer to Thailand is the Cambodians. Many were kept in refugee camps here before they immigrated to the US. In America they are allowed to freely participate in the economy and many have become successful. In California Cambodian immigrants own over 90% of the donut shops. A well run restaurant or donut shop in American can bring an above average income. Native born Americans haven’t turned out to protest like Thais do when foreign companies succeed here. When people come to America they are not subjected to two tier pricing particularly by the government. They cannot be refused housing or jobs because of their nationality. No one tells them they cannot purchase a home or land. The law requires they be treated in every respect as native born Americans and the law is enforced. About the only thing they can’t do without becoming a naturalized citizen is vote. In the US there are even naturalized citizens who are freely elected politicians. Felix Frankfurter, a naturalized US citizen became a Supreme Court Judge. That would likely never happen in Thailand. Someone would start screaming Foreigner, Foreigner and the mob would join the chorus. In Thailand it is rare when any foreigner, particularly someone of European or African ancestry is allowed to become a naturalized Thai citizen much less run for public office.

Under Thailand’s current system, Bill Gates and Steven Jobs would not be allowed to work here were they just starting out. Why? No university degree. They wouldn’t be the right “quality” for Thailand. Steven Jobs was still a teenager fresh out of high school when and another mere high school graduate started apple. Gates dropped out of Harvard University to found Microsoft. No University degree= no “quality” as far as Thailand is concerned. If you have a good idea and no degree, don’t bring it to Thailand. Thailand only wants “quality” people to contribute the country. Thailand’s xenophobia is the chief cause of her inability to attract the people needed to help create and build an economy. The foreigners come and when Thais see them succeed in opening small business, some of which may become big businesses, the xenophobia sets in. Thailand has some creative and successful people. In the past Thailand had an aircraft manufacturing industry and designed operational production military aircraft. Some Thais have excelled at business innovation and marketing. But without the infusion of foreign intellectual capital to augment the native born talent growth will painfully slow especially when the creative people migrate to other countries where they can join with other creative people in developing ideas and building new enterprises.

In the US much of the creative engine is driven by immigrants. In the US many of the naturalized Americans who become successful give back to their adopted country part of the wealth they have amassed. In Thailand, the native born millionaires and billionaires are seldom seen giving of their wealth to help better the country. Their need for more wealth seems insatiable.

In Thailand the xenophobia and economic nationalism locks out those who would come here and help the country develop. Apologists for the Thai system can try and justify this policy all they want but in the end it is Thailand that will slide further back on the development scale while other countries with more open policies will rapidly advance.

Nice post. But I think you should understand Thai people don't think the same way as you do. Thai peoples goal is not to become the economical, financial, technological or military leader of the world. They want to be left alone, be self-sufficient. Frankly they don't care much that there are still many poor people in their country and they certainly don't want to depend on foreigners to solve their problems.

They are struggling to protect their culture and traditions that are getting lost because of the western influence. When people see their culture is at danger they become extremists. This is what is happening with Thai people today but it also happens at other places in the world. I myself also tend to idealise my culture and traditions when I stay in Thailand.

Where it is all going to? I don't know. But it makes me scared. Examples from the past but also the present show that extremism very often leads to human tragedy.

Edited February 26, 2007 by kriswillems

[jumnien]

With all the ranting about the Thai government from drunken farang in Thailand, it's about time a Thai politician snapped and ranted about farangs for a change. Give 'em a bit of their own medicine. Sick 'em, boy!

[LOS4words]

I'm sure Thailand will have no problem competing in the slow moving uncompetitive microprocessor field. Personally I'm eagerly awaiting Thailand's answer to Intel's new 45nm manufacturing process.

[nick2k]

Thailand’s biggest problem in developing is her ever increasing xenophobia. Many countries are envious of the US lead in science, technology and business. Americans did create much of the technology and medical science in use today. But where did many of these American inventors and innovators come from?

• Albert Sabin-Inventor of the oral polio vaccine. American by choice. Born in Russia. Not rich or famous when he arrived.
  
• Werner Von Braun- Lead designer of the rockets that thus far put the only men on the moon. American by choice. Born in Germany.
  
• An Wang-Inventor of the magnetic core memory that made the early advances (pre-integrated circuit) in computers possible. American by choice. Born in China. Wasn’t rich or famous when he emigrated.
  
• Albert Einstein- No explanation needed. . American by choice. Born in Germany.
  
• Admiral Hyman Rickhover –Father of the US Nuclear Navy- American by choice. Born in Russian occupied Poland. Came as a child of a poor family who emigrated to the US in search of a better life.
  
• Hans Joachim Pabst von Ohain-Co-inventor of the jet engine. American by choice. Born in Germany.
  
• Igor Sikorsky- Inventor of the first practical helicopter and designer of the first 4 engine aircraft. Born in the Ukraine- American by choice.
  
• Alexander Graham Bell- Inventor of the telephone. Born and raised in Scotland. Immigrated to America. American by choice.
  
• Vinod Khosla-Venture capitalist and cofounder of Sun Microsytems. Born in India. American by choice.
  
• Jerry Yang- Co-founder of Yahoo. Born Taiwan. American by choice. Arrived in US with his widowed mother at age 10. Not rich. Not famous but became so.
  
• Jen-Hsun Huang - Co-founder of NVIDIA Corp (graphics chips). Born Taiwan. American by Choice. Lived in Thailand at one time when he was young. Moved to America in his youth. Not rich, not famous when he arrived.
  
• Albert Baez- Inventor of the x-ray microscope. Born Mexico. American by choice.
  
• Tuan Vo-Dinh- Inventor and patent holder of optical diagnostic test equipment. Born Vietnam. American by choice. He would have been just another unwanted refugee in Thailand.
  

The list could go on and on.

These Americans were all foreigners. They embraced the US and the US embraced them. Some had already achieved greatness before they immigrated and helped America by refining their earlier inventions. Others were untested. Many came from poor families. The US doesn’t complain when foreigners who have immigrated succeed. In fact the US frequently honors them and holds them up as role models for the entire country.

There are foreigners that would come and embrace Thailand too. But Thailand doesn’t want foreigners to get too comfortable here. Thailand’s xenophobic zeal makes it very difficult for foreigners. The government and the various ministries that make up the government try to make it so difficult for foreigners that it discourages those who might contribute here. In America there is no rigid work permit system. You get the appropriate visa and you can work at any job at any location. Sikorsky worked as a school teacher when he first came to America. Had he come to Thailand today he would have been arrested for thinking about designing aircraft without a work permit before he could have ever opened his aeronautical engineering company. Under Thai law, thinking without a work permit (exerting mental energy) is a violation of the Alien Employment Act.

Even today the US welcomes ordinary immigrants. While the doors are not completely open there are mechanisms for ordinary people to live and work in America. There is a diversity visa program for ordinary citizens not just those with advanced degrees. There are other programs too. Ordinary immigrants to the US contribute in a variety of ways. In the US Indian immigrants own over 35% of all hotels in the US. No one tells them they must have a 51% American partner. No one tells them they cannot manage and control their investment. Try that in Thailand. In the US the government doesn’t pass laws to limit the expansion of Indian owned hotels. These Indians employ native born Americans, buy from native born Americans, pay taxes and serve in the armed forces. Another ethnic group in American closer to Thailand is the Cambodians. Many were kept in refugee camps here before they immigrated to the US. In America they are allowed to freely participate in the economy and many have become successful. In California Cambodian immigrants own over 90% of the donut shops. A well run restaurant or donut shop in American can bring an above average income. Native born Americans haven’t turned out to protest like Thais do when foreign companies succeed here. When people come to America they are not subjected to two tier pricing particularly by the government. They cannot be refused housing or jobs because of their nationality. No one tells them they cannot purchase a home or land. The law requires they be treated in every respect as native born Americans and the law is enforced. About the only thing they can’t do without becoming a naturalized citizen is vote. In the US there are even naturalized citizens who are freely elected politicians. Felix Frankfurter, a naturalized US citizen became a Supreme Court Judge. That would likely never happen in Thailand. Someone would start screaming Foreigner, Foreigner and the mob would join the chorus. In Thailand it is rare when any foreigner, particularly someone of European or African ancestry is allowed to become a naturalized Thai citizen much less run for public office.

Under Thailand’s current system, Bill Gates and Steven Jobs would not be allowed to work here were they just starting out. Why? No university degree. They wouldn’t be the right “quality” for Thailand. Steven Jobs was still a teenager fresh out of high school when and another mere high school graduate started apple. Gates dropped out of Harvard University to found Microsoft. No University degree= no “quality” as far as Thailand is concerned. If you have a good idea and no degree, don’t bring it to Thailand. Thailand only wants “quality” people to contribute the country. Thailand’s xenophobia is the chief cause of her inability to attract the people needed to help create and build an economy. The foreigners come and when Thais see them succeed in opening small business, some of which may become big businesses, the xenophobia sets in. Thailand has some creative and successful people. In the past Thailand had an aircraft manufacturing industry and designed operational production military aircraft. Some Thais have excelled at business innovation and marketing. But without the infusion of foreign intellectual capital to augment the native born talent growth will painfully slow especially when the creative people migrate to other countries where they can join with other creative people in developing ideas and building new enterprises.

In the US much of the creative engine is driven by immigrants. In the US many of the naturalized Americans who become successful give back to their adopted country part of the wealth they have amassed. In Thailand, the native born millionaires and billionaires are seldom seen giving of their wealth to help better the country. Their need for more wealth seems insatiable.

In Thailand the xenophobia and economic nationalism locks out those who would come here and help the country develop. Apologists for the Thai system can try and justify this policy all they want but in the end it is Thailand that will slide further back on the development scale while other countries with more open policies will rapidly advance.

Nice post. But I think you should understand Thai people don't think the same way as you do. Thai peoples goal is not to become the economical, financial, technological or military leader of the world. They want to be left alone, be self-sufficient. Frankly they don't care much that there are still many poor people in their country and they certainly don't want to depend on foreigners to solve their problems.

They are struggling to protect their culture and traditions that are getting lost because of the western influence. When people see their culture is at danger they become extremists. This is what is happening with Thai people today but it also happens at other places in the world. I myself also tend to idealise my culture and traditions when I stay in Thailand.

Where it is all going to? I don't know. But it makes me scared. Examples from the past but also the present show that extremism very often leads to human tragedy.

for some reason, I can't believe all the poor people in thailand want to keep the status quo. ..which is to live day to day worrying about their next meals. perhaps you are referring to the elite upper class thais. not the lower class thais who are stupid, stubborn, lazy, and too dark skinned - who don't deserve equal rights.

..tell me if I am wrong?

when you think about it, it makes sense. don't educate the poor, keep them struggling with day to day issues by limiting their salaries to a bear minimum needed for survival. if I were in the same situation, I would be bowing up and down too - to whomever gave me food to eat.

I see the logic.

but might I suggest to the powers who be..

don't be selfish - share. otherwise, as history shows, violence will be the result. what happened in russia with stalin, in china with mao, in cambodia with pol pet - could happen here.

only a matter of time.

[loong]

Thailand’s biggest problem in developing is her ever increasing xenophobia. Many countries are envious of the US lead in science, technology and business. Americans did create much of the technology and medical science in use today. But where did many of these American inventors and innovators come from?................................................

..In Thailand the xenophobia and economic nationalism locks out those who would come here and help the country develop. Apologists for the Thai system can try and justify this policy all they want but in the end it is Thailand that will slide further back on the development scale while other countries with more open policies will rapidly advance.

Nice post. But I think you should understand Thai people don't think the same way as you do. Thai peoples goal is not to become the economical, financial, technological or military leader of the world. They want to be left alone, be self-sufficient. Frankly they don't care much that there are still many poor people in their country and they certainly don't want to depend on foreigners to solve their problems.

They are struggling to protect their culture and traditions that are getting lost because of the western influence. When people see their culture is at danger they become extremists. This is what is happening with Thai people today but it also happens at other places in the world. I myself also tend to idealise my culture and traditions when I stay in Thailand.

Where it is all going to? I don't know. But it makes me scared. Examples from the past but also the present show that extremism very often leads to human tragedy.

Kriswillems........Who are the "They" that you refer to. Certainly the wealthy and influential in Thailand don't give a toss about the poor.

The Father of the King studied at Harvard medical school in America with the aim of improving medical facilities and knowledge in Thailand. (The King was born in America) Even at the beginning of the last century he realised the importance of taking advantage of foreign knowledge. The King was educated in Switzerland, I believe.

and they certainly don't want to depend on foreigners to solve their problems

Tell this to the people of Isaan

Progress is not always good, but if you ask the average Thai if they would prefer to turn the clock back and live without their Motorbikes, cars, refrigerators, air con and TV's etc, what do you think the answer would be?

What culture and traditions are getting lost because of western influence?

[LOS4words]

Limiting exposure to foreign cultures certainly hasn't worked for any civilization throughout history. If people want to stick to old ideals or embrace new ones they should be able to make that choice themselves without some fascist nouveau dictator telling them what to do.

If the culture gets assimilated its only because the alternative is superior. Nationalism and religion are convenient tools for governments to use to keep its citizens docile.

Naturally most of us western people are to busy riding the moral high-horse to take any real stand in such issues. After all we must preserve all those quaint little cultures and cults. Everyone deserves and education and the choice to make an unbiased decision in matters of culture and religion.

[kriswillems]

I've to admit I never lived in the north-east. I've lived in Chonburi, in an industrial area. If I would ask a Thai person (in Chonburi) if they like foreign investment or foreign culture they would all say "yes". But if the question would be asked by a Thai person, 50% of the people would say "no", and the majority of the rest would not express any opinion, but would think "no".

I can't have a free, balanced discussion about the king on this forum.

Thai people don't like the idea of globalisation. They believe that they were doing pretty well without foreigners (even if we think this is not true) and they have no need to get more foreigners into Thailand.

Western cultural influences: sex before marriage, lack of respect for older people, capitalisme and egoisme, thinking money driven, living to work instead of working to live, looking down at Thai people, use of alcohol and drugs, ....

Do I think Thai people will benifit from this attitude? No, they won't.

[LOS4words]

"Western cultural influences: sex before marriage, lack of respect for older people, capitalisme and egoisme, thinking money driven, living to work instead of working to live, looking down at Thai people, use of alcohol and drugs, ...."

Thats just what the communists say.

[ZhongFu]

When are they going to stop talking?

Edited February 26, 2007 by ZhongFu

[OlRedEyes]

Yes, you are right, if that is exactly what he said. Presumably the speech was in Thai, so it would be very easy for The Nation to put an anti-foreigner slant in the translation.

He may be have been simply pointing out that Thais should be profiting themselves from technology, rather than let all the profits go out of the country - in other words - "come on guys, let's get a share of this lucrative pie" If his statement was more akin to my version, then I would not say it was xenophobic at all. And again, what is wrong with exhorting Thais to do something themselves that they can be proud of?

I'm not defending this guy per se, and if the translation of his speech is accurate then he should be more careful what he says as a representative of the governement, but who knows for sure? ThaiGoon has given us a very reasoanble explanation for the rest of his speech, so why don't we give him the benefit of the doubt, and restrict our anti Thai invective to those who clearly invite it?

Seems to me the Thai Vs Foreigner thing will never get resolved if everyone become totally polarised in their postions.

Smoothing things over while a cancer is growing is never a wise long-term strategy, IMHO.

The bigger the problem becomes, the more direct the approach should become, methinks.

As I said, IMHO these are recurring sentiments. Even if quoted incorrectly. I don't think anyone can seriously argue anymore that both sentiments surface very often, accross a broad spectrum of the population, not just the government.

Diplomacy is my style, or I try, but all my life I have found that matters which threaten long-term disaster should be discussed, not smoothed over or painted a pretty pink. Else you may end up with REAL polarisation.

[OlRedEyes]

- Excellent post snipped -

Very well put.

Letters to the Editor for the local media, Thai and English?

[loong]

...................................Thai people don't like the idea of globalisation. They believe that they were doing pretty well without foreigners (even if we think this is not true) and they have no need to get more foreigners into Thailand.

Western cultural influences: sex before marriage, lack of respect for older people, capitalisme and egoisme, thinking money driven, living to work instead of working to live, looking down at Thai people, use of alcohol and drugs, ....

Do I think Thai people will benifit from this attitude? No, they won't.

Having lived in a village for most of my time in Thailand, I was asked (almost on a daily basis), by the women if I had a farang friend who would be interested in them. So these people certainly wanted more foreigners in Thailand.

Re Western cultural influences:

I think that sex before marriage has existed in Thailand almost since time began. Certainly adultery has, ie sex outside of marriage. In fact the Mia Noy is very much a part of Thai culture, as is "wife for rent".

lack of respect for older people - well I have to agree that the younger people's attitude to the elderly is changing. I have definitely noticed this during the last 7 years. This is not just happening in the tourist centres, but also in the rural areas, where there is very little influence by westerners, so what is causing it?

Capitalism and egoism; Thailand is and has always been a status conscious society.

Living to work instead of working to live; I see very little evidence of this. Not many Thais can be accused of being a "Workaholic". Mostly they are very laid back and don't want to work too hard.

Looking down at Thai people; are you saying that westerners look down on Thais. I may look down on some people, but that has nothing to do with their race. I have a lot of respect for many Thais. Again, Thais are status orientated, so they do look down on some of their own people. Do you look down on the people who collect bottles and plastic from the waste bins? I don't, they are managing to make a living, not asking for handouts and performing a valuable service. I respect them for that.

Use of alcohol and drugs; come on, you can't seriously blame this on western influence. Opium was smoked here centuries ago. Low Kow has been distilled and drank here (In excess) for who knows how long.

Edited February 26, 2007 by loong

[Gravelrash]

Thailand's biggest problem in developing is her ever increasing xenophobia. Many countries are envious of the US lead in science, technology and business. Americans did create much of the technology and medical science in use today. But where did many of these American inventors and innovators come from?

• Albert Sabin-Inventor of the oral polio vaccine. American by choice. Born in Russia. Not rich or famous when he arrived.
  
• Werner Von Braun- Lead designer of the rockets that thus far put the only men on the moon. American by choice. Born in Germany...
  

...for the Thai system can try and justify this policy all they want but in the end it is Thailand that will slide further back on the development scale while other countries with more open policies will rapidly advance.

Excellent post. Many foriegners here may open businesses not perceived by Thais as providing benefit to the ecomomy (except jobs and servicing specific foreign needs?). But others have wider ambitions with export possibilities, how absurd, not everyone is a drunk or a whoremonger. I personally want to open another business here and am going through the setup processes, riddled with requests for bribes by the parasites in the beaurocracy which contributes nothing to the actual economy, or being stalled and made to come back again and again over nothing. Yet to deal with customs, sure that will be more fun.

If things work out despite the daily headaches, even though I will start the business here, I will eventually move it offshore to be rid of the small minded xenophobia & corruption. Many things I would like do are just too hard and it is easier to find simpler alternatives that have no long term advantage to Thailand. You try, but...

As to the minister, probably speaking though frustration, but what policies of him or anyone else are offerring cures?

[kriswillems]

Loong, I am not expressing my opinion. I am trying to explain how Thai people look at foreigners.

You can read Thai language right? You should go to read the Thai forums regarding these subjects (immigration/foreign companies/self-sufficiency). There you see the opinion of Thai people. Believe me, these messages would be considered as pure racisme on european forums.

Edited February 26, 2007 by kriswillems