Depressing?

[Thai-Spy]

The media knows very well what sells and what doesn't sell, and are specialists at writing stories with carefully choosen words to sustain sales volume - often with a bias that can be misleading.

And to maintain their government funding.

[FunkyGuru]

My views, read again, MY personal views on the article and not the subject are:

1. Nothing Original
   
2. Statistic offered is too broad
   
3. Gives a feel of Press release by Christian Charity
   
4. No sign of BBC flavor
   

I would stop at this. Any additional comment from me will actually amount to me venturing into discussing the core issue as presented in not even average article by Kate McGeown.

However I would like to comment to some arguments here:

1. Having fluency in Spoken Thai or ability to read and write does not warrant the person to be fully aware of cultural intricacies.
   
2. This interview was of ONE particular girl, not of several other girls. So it could be just taken as zero value
   
3. Those who are vehemently trying to taint Kate McGeown, please remember, it's her freedom of speech. For those who will read that article and believe it, that too will be their choice of believing in what they want to.
   
4. Observation: Strange enough no one mentioned in your face kind of sex industry that is flourishing in Philippines?
   

Well I shall stop at this for now. I will need to prepare another article to post here. Again expressing my views.

Edited February 25, 2007 by FunkyGuru

[ColPyat]

aaah, I see you have introduced a term that had nothing to do with the original statement made by Casanundra - "massive role in the economy". That moves the goal posts quite significantly, because before we know the argument will be moved from prostitutes, to bar/alcohol sales, to room rental, to food sold and a whole host of supporting infrastructure, and before we know it we'll be looking at a sizable section of the whole tourist economy ...!!

Lets get back to basics of this. I agreed with Casanundra that prostitutes were a far smaller section of society than was often thought - and I gave the one figure that I recalled, namely that it less than 1% of the girls of working age in Thailand worked as prostitutes.

Now, I am not sure what it includes and what it doesn't include - I would have thought it would have taken into consideration places of entertainment that front of prostitution, but not "mai noi's" - who are not considered in the same light as professional prositutes, as they maintain a somewhat different type of relatonship - which tends to be with a single supporting patron over a medium to long term, as opposed to constantly looking for different clients. But fine, I agree the argument could be extended to include them, so lets include them as well.

Yes I would agree with you, there will be error in any study of this kind, such is the nature of the subject, but researchers take that into consideration in academic surveys, and will give what they believe to be fair error percentage either way (which in this case I don't know what it is - I would) need to go away and find out that).

But as I said - from what you have written and identified ("2 villages in the North, 1 in Isaan and 1 near Bangkok") - to feel then that to say it "plays a massive role in the economy", is to move the goal posts from the original topic, and is a somewhat broad statement in it's self. Can you qauntify the income in these 4 villages generated from prostitution, over any othe income, and, any idea how many villages are there like this overall (compared to all the villages/communtites in Thailand)?

I don't think is a fair argument, but fair enough - if you feel it is, by all means go and do some reasearch at one of the Uni libraries or on-line, (or whatever you feel is the best source - Google!), and come back with some figures for just how how large prostitution is in terms of number of girls who practise it versus number of girls in Thailand.

I would want to keep "minor wives" out of the equation only because I would suspect in any survey they would be seen in a slightly different light to the prostitute who works in the bar, karoake bar, or simialr place of entertainment - but if you can get a figure for them, by all means include it.

It is easy to form an opinion or idea from what one experiances, but thats just my point - it's my belief that in this case, the "experiance" most have is more often than not gives a misleading impression.

There has been a ton of research in Thailand by government departments and Uni's to quantify prostitution in terms of in terms of number of prostitutes - and the evidance is that the number is small when you looked at overall in terms of the number of females in Thailand (but certainly larger than many other countries). What prostitutes earn themselves is also small if looked at from a national economic point of view. It is a very different stroy though if you look at the subject from a support and infrastructure perspective e.g. the meals sold in resturants, the waiting staff to serve those couples, the hotel staff to clean rooms, the bus tickets sold to move the girls from up North down South, the drinks sold in bars ect ect .... yes, that figure is certainly significant ata antional economic level.

But because someone works in a hotel cleaning rooms stayed in by "couples", or works as a waitress in a resturant serving couples, is not to say that their income is derived from supporting prostitution. No, you did not say it was, but when you said "massive role in the economy" in very broad terms, I do see this the goal posts been moved to include all this.

So back to the original stament Casanundra made, and which I agree with: prostitution in Thailand is in the overall scheme of things, a very small part of Thai society. It appears much bigger than it is, because it is so open and so tolerated. And what prostitutes themselves earn is also a very small part of the overall picture (all be it the economics of everything that goes with it like, bars, resturants, entertainment, room rental ect ect .... is a large slice of the tourist cake).

MF

To avoid a misunderstanding - i meant a massive role in the local micro economy of affected villages, not on a national scale. I have no idea how i would quantify that.

But the problem is the definition, and the widely differing numbers given by otherwise reputable institutions. As important statistics are, i believe in the wide field of prostitution it can be very misleading.

I look at prostitution here more of an anthropological viewpoint that trying to quantify it on national terms. There are clear effect on it on a village micro level, starting from economical aspects over to changes in traditional village hirarchal structures that the event of large scale prostitution have caused.

One thing though i still contest, and that is that prostitution is a relatively small aspect of Thai society. It has changed the structure of many rural Thai villages, the moneys earned do often contribute a very sizable amount of available cash in these villages.

My problem though with the media, and there i think we do agree, is that the reporting is along simplistic stereotypes that neither challenge intellectually, nor is much new done, and often has very little o do with more complex realities.

[alexth]

From footer on BBC new web site

06:54 GMT.

The most read story in Australasia is: Life as a Thai sex worker

Sigh.........

Regards

I read the piece after it was pointed out to me this morning.

Same old tripe that is trotted out every so often - why do they not do a profile on a Singaporean sex worker in Geylang where its legal?

Could also try Batam, Cambodia or numerous other places but no - the image perpetuates by lazy journalism looking for an easy story.

Totally agree...it happens all over Asia why always put a spolight on Thailand...Batam is alot worse...as is Ipswich and Kings cross in the U.K.... these journos should report on somthing that is of interest like what has been going on in the south lately...doubt ill see or read anything on the BBC regarding that!!!!!!

Because Thailand is no.1 for this kind of activities.

[bingobongo]

prostitution in Thailand is by no means minor, Thailand isn't as family friendly and savory as most "want" to believe

One estimate published in 2003 placed the trade at US$ 4.3 billion per year, about three percent of the Thai economy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Thailand

[qwertz]

On CNN today. CNN helps child rescue organisation free under-age girls in Calcutta from sex slavery. According to them India is no.1 for this particular scourge of society. It seems that as India becomes more affluent a certain element of pond life can now afford to indulge its baser tastes. Can this be true, that over 1 billion Indians permit child abuse? Whatever, at least it will draw attention away from LOS for a while.

[ColPyat]

On CNN today. CNN helps child rescue organisation free under-age girls in Calcutta from sex slavery. According to them India is no.1 for this particular scourge of society. It seems that as India becomes more affluent a certain element of pond life can now afford to indulge its baser tastes. Can this be true, that over 1 billion Indians permit child abuse? Whatever, at least it will draw attention away from LOS for a while.

India has always been bigger than Thailand in terms of child prostitution and forced prostitution, not just now since the economical opening. Places such as Falkland Road in Bombay had a sad fame since before i have been born. Most forced prostitution (including child prostitution) happens in the cheapest brothels, not in the high end places.

And no, 1 billion Indians so not "permit" child abuse. It just happens.

[Acquiesce]

Why would you want to draw attention away from Thailand ? These are real issues that need to be addressed and i think that the more attention it gets the better.

[Dupont]

They probably contacted the journo and said they had a story for her.

Quite possibly. A lot could be written, said and done on prostitution here, and a lot in fact has. That piece though is maybe one of the most miserably researched pieces i have ever seen.

Rather comical, actually.

Very sloppy indeed.

What annoyed me was that she mentioned the 100 baht a day wage that "forced" her into prostitution.

The way to go for a real journalist would have been to question why such low wages are paid in a country with plenty of rich people at the top of the social scale.

That though would have required the balls and tenacity of a real journalist and researching further afield than Bangkoks red light districts.

[qwertz]

Why would you want to draw attention away from Thailand ? These are real issues that need to be addressed and i think that the more attention it gets the better.

You read me wrong, A. I wouldn't want to draw the attention away from Thailand. My interest in the forum should have made that clear. I meant the kind of attention that leads armchair travellers to think that Thailand alone has this custom and has been singled out by the hacks as the most glaring example. You might want to check out CNN, or not.

P.S. The CNN footage was about as hackneyed and stage managed as that from BBC.

Edited February 25, 2007 by qwertz

[ColPyat]

Very sloppy indeed.

What annoyed me was that she mentioned the 100 baht a day wage that "forced" her into prostitution.

The way to go for a real journalist would have been to question why such low wages are paid in a country with plenty of rich people at the top of the social scale.

That though would have required the balls and tenacity of a real journalist and researching further afield than Bangkoks red light districts.

There are a lot more questions to ask as well.

Such as, why is it that in many villages prostitution is nowadays a career move, while there are other options available? It's not purely poverty driven anymore here.

Or, if it needs that western angle, looking more into the psychology of the relations between western men and (ex)prostitutes, their expectations, the way how they handle the past in a marriage, how they deal with prejudices of people.

Just anything more interesting than the same old exploitation angle, that does not exist so simplistic as described in the article. What about the countless women who enter prostitution here, even though they have loving husbands who are heart broken when their wifes leave them to work?

[nikster]

Almost perfect, if you overlook the biased reportage.

I found the article somewhat lame - there we go again, sex trade in Thailand. On the other hand, I didn't find it biased. Yes. It happens. A lot, too, some might say. There certainly is no shortage of bar girls and other sex workers in Thailand, or is there?

Kate has previously written two excellent reports, one on the bombings in the south and one on Burma. Both contained insights that I have never seen in other reports and most certainly not in any mainstream media like the bbc news. This is why I remembered her name.

So I am going to give her a break on that one. It's a pretty typical story. And good for her if it's on the most-read list

[nikster]

Where exactly is the "exploitation angle" in this?

I urge you to read the article again:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6360603.stm?ls

In short: Girl gets seduced by money to do thing she doesn't want to do, finds disgusting, actually, quits it and is happier for it. Good for her, and nothing to get all hot and bothered about.

When I first came to Thailand a few years ago I was also pretty surprised by the enormous complexity of the whole ex-sex-tourist, ex-bar girl thing - no one knows about this back home. There's endless shades and combinations and none of them simple and straightforward - which is why there's so many books being written about it, I suppose.

It's certainly interesting to me as an expat living here, but I also think it may be something that the average bbc news reader isn't ready for.

There are a lot more questions to ask as well.

Such as, why is it that in many villages prostitution is nowadays a career move, while there are other options available? It's not purely poverty driven anymore here.

Or, if it needs that western angle, looking more into the psychology of the relations between western men and (ex)prostitutes, their expectations, the way how they handle the past in a marriage, how they deal with prejudices of people.

Just anything more interesting than the same old exploitation angle, that does not exist so simplistic as described in the article. What about the countless women who enter prostitution here, even though they have loving husbands who are heart broken when their wifes leave them to work?

[chuchok]

I'd wager just re-hash of an old story, doubt the writer has even been to thailand.

Kate has lived in Thailand for a long time, she is quite well known within the expat community in Bangkok, she is also fluent in the spoken and writen Thai language.

If she is so good and "fluent" in Thai,why doesn't Kate do some "real" journalism.She gets her facts from a very,very wealthy outfit(Check out their USA web site and the assets they have.. ) and they say things like this...

"Aye, who was diagnosed with lung cancer was prayed for and now her diagnosis has changed to asthma"

You have got to be joking....She must be attached to the group.no normal person would believe this.

She is making money..no more no less IMO.

[ColPyat]

Where exactly is the "exploitation angle" in this?

I urge you to read the article again:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6360603.stm?ls

In short: Girl gets seduced by money to do thing she doesn't want to do, finds disgusting, actually, quits it and is happier for it. Good for her, and nothing to get all hot and bothered about.

When I first came to Thailand a few years ago I was also pretty surprised by the enormous complexity of the whole ex-sex-tourist, ex-bar girl thing - no one knows about this back home. There's endless shades and combinations and none of them simple and straightforward - which is why there's so many books being written about it, I suppose.

It's certainly interesting to me as an expat living here, but I also think it may be something that the average bbc news reader isn't ready for.

Why not give it a try and not underestimate the intelligence of the average BBC reader and present him/her with something that challenges the endlessly repeated stereotype, especially one without the western NGO saves poor exploited third world hooker angle?

There is so much more to be written about this topic. The writer here just chose to repeat what is already embedded in the mind of the average reader through decades of the same story repeated over and over again.

[britmaveric]

Truth would be a good start - however the non-exploited angle might not be too PC for the western world.

[richard10365]

Maybe these reporters need to get a copy of LA Weekly or Orange County Weekly. They sure sound like they need to get laid. Using those fine Southern California publications, which are freely distributed all over So Cal, could get them laid pretty quick. There are plenty of girls and boys publicly using these publications to make some extra cash. They do a lot more than massage.

Las Vegas has a few seedy publications which are available to the general public. They are normally located next to the regular newspaper stands.

I think these reporters should do something about their own country before they go into another's country and try to condemn that country for doing something similar.

[MyPenRye]

Other topics that Kate --and her Christian organisations-- should be interested in answering, above and beyond the ones related to the extreme differences of wealth in Thailand (and in many countries, including the USA, Canada and ,...).

Why did Pim get a baby so young, as this would certainly make her life more difficult if the husband would leave?

Did she do it because:

1) she loved her husband or because she really loved the idea of having a baby, or

2) she loved her husband, but does not have a clue what a stable husband is?

Why do many Thai men get to be alcoholics? Is it just men?

Why is it that many Thai husbands use prositutes, if mariage is supposed to be so blissful?

Why are the customers (Thai and foreigners) always the target of those kinds of articles whereas the pimps are not?

Why is the village and its government not concerned about the real causes of this?

Why is it that many Westerm men come to Thailand for this? (Clue ... interview them! But I doubt we will ever see an article about that. Or will we?)

[richard10365]

I'd wager just re-hash of an old story, doubt the writer has even been to thailand.

Kate has lived in Thailand for a long time, she is quite well known within the expat community in Bangkok, she is also fluent in the spoken and writen Thai language.

Almost perfect, if you overlook the biased reportage.

Why is it biased to write about a girl in Thailand who regrets getting into prostitution? The BBC covers all kinds of stories, including stories about prostitution in Thailand, the UK, and all over the world. What, they should just print happy stories? Seems like the journalist touched a real sore spot here! Bit too close to home for some I guess...

I regret joining the army sometimes but I don't have some journalist with nothing to write about make a story out of it.

Why doesn't she write a story about how she ended up in Thailand with nothing really significant to write about but instead chooses to kick a dead horses. She might as well write about how the USA took advantage of the Indians or indigenous people of Africa.

I think if she is not Thai, and I was Thai immigration, I would revoke her visa for making Thailand look bad. It's one thing to write about your own country, but to enter another, write things about it that happen in your own country and expect to stay in that foreign country is another story.

[s.pylos]

Other topics that Kate --and her Christian organisations-- should be interested in answering, above and beyond the ones related to the extreme differences of wealth in Thailand (and in many countries, including the USA, Canada and ,...).

Why did Pim get a baby so young, as this would certainly make her life more difficult if the husband would leave?

Did she do it because:

1) she loved her husband or because she really loved the idea of having a baby, or

2) she loved her husband, but does not have a clue what a stable husband is?

Why do many Thai men get to be alcoholics? Is it just men?

Why is it that many Thai husbands use prositutes, if mariage is supposed to be so blissful?

Why are the customers (Thai and foreigners) always the target of those kinds of articles whereas the pimps are not?

Why is the village and its government not concerned about the real causes of this?

Why is it that many Westerm men come to Thailand for this? (Clue ... interview them! But I doubt we will ever see an article about that. Or will we?)

Actually there is...

Here is a beginning of an answer. Not perfect but a beginning ...

[sandy]

Rationalisations_of_sex_tourism.pdf

[s.pylos]

I'd wager just re-hash of an old story, doubt the writer has even been to thailand.

Kate has lived in Thailand for a long time, she is quite well known within the expat community in Bangkok, she is also fluent in the spoken and writen Thai language.

Almost perfect, if you overlook the biased reportage.

Why is it biased to write about a girl in Thailand who regrets getting into prostitution? The BBC covers all kinds of stories, including stories about prostitution in Thailand, the UK, and all over the world. What, they should just print happy stories? Seems like the journalist touched a real sore spot here! Bit too close to home for some I guess...

I regret joining the army sometimes but I don't have some journalist with nothing to write about make a story out of it.

Why doesn't she write a story about how she ended up in Thailand with nothing really significant to write about but instead chooses to kick a dead horses. She might as well write about how the USA took advantage of the Indians or indigenous people of Africa.

I think if she is not Thai, and I was Thai immigration, I would revoke her visa for making Thailand look bad. It's one thing to write about your own country, but to enter another, write things about it that happen in your own country and expect to stay in that foreign country is another story.

... and why not burn her on the public place at Sanam Luang whilst you are at it?

Why the heck another article on prostitution in thailand? Either prostitution is a myth (which many here seems to be willing to believe) or it is a so well-known or blown up reality that it does not desserve to be talked about. So many subjects that does not desserve to be talk about ... antisemitism, homophobia, woman's right, some monarch in some country... We all know about that why bother talking about it, eh?

Let's start the autodafe of the BBC !

[sandy]

[s.pylos]

[...]

One thing though i still contest, and that is that prostitution is a relatively small aspect of Thai society. It has changed the structure of many rural Thai villages, the moneys earned do often contribute a very sizable amount of available cash in these villages.

My problem though with the media, and there i think we do agree, is that the reporting is along simplistic stereotypes that neither challenge intellectually, nor is much new done, and often has very little o do with more complex realities.

Very true. And those who bother getting out of their armchair and travel in the far away countryside in small remote villages where western-style houses are litterally mushrooming would certainly witness it.

Many (but not all) are funded by sex-money (be it one off or sugar daddy). A female sex worker doing good can earn up to 60,000 baht per month (see the numerous bio published on the subject). But many are not that lucky.

So why not talk about it? Yes there are many things to talk about and amongst them the link between prostitution- money- familly duties - place in society and how money buy you respect.

Kate article is a start, maybe not an original one, but it is a start. Those interested will look further, while those who prefer lecturing the world from their lounge will besmirch it.

[sandy]

Edited February 26, 2007 by s.pylos

[chuchok]

[...]

One thing though i still contest, and that is that prostitution is a relatively small aspect of Thai society. It has changed the structure of many rural Thai villages, the moneys earned do often contribute a very sizable amount of available cash in these villages.

My problem though with the media, and there i think we do agree, is that the reporting is along simplistic stereotypes that neither challenge intellectually, nor is much new done, and often has very little o do with more complex realities.

Very true. And those who bother getting out of their armchair and travel in the far away countryside in small remote villages where western-style houses are litterally mushrooming would certainly witness it.

Many (but not all) are funded by on sex-money (be it one off or sugar daddy). A female sex worker doing good can earn up to 60,000 baht per month (see the numerous bio publish on the subject). But many are not that lucky.

So why not talk about it? Yes there are many things to talk about and amongst them the link between prostitution- money- familly duties - place in society and how money buy you respect.

Kate article is a start, maybe not an original one, but it is a start. Those interested will look further, while those who prefer lecturing the world from their lounge will besmirch it.

[sandy]

Nobody is denying that protitution exists.It's that kate is giving a very one sided loony fringe slant on things.Her people have just cured cancer <deleted>.Shouldn't that be front page news...