EU rebuffs May, says no-plan Brexiteers deserve 'place in hell'

[KhaoNiaw]

34 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

David Cameron had it agreed that EU immigrants could only stay here for a very limited time if they couldn't support themselves. 

Britain already had this option under EU law anyway but UK governments CHOSE not to apply it (presumably because of the costs involved). 

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, samran said:

Or, you could argue that the creaking infrastructure is the result of decades of under investment which has little to do with migrants.

 

After all, in particular EU migrants, they work and pay tax for the most part, no? 

 

As for your last comment, not unusual for the TV mob to find themselves hot and bothered when it comes to being compared to ‘immigrants’.

 

‘Oh, I’m an expat, not an immigrant - by visa even says so!’ 

 

Wrong, your non-immigrant visa dies after 3 months, after which you are given an extension of stay. And where do you do that extension of stay? At the immigration department. 

 

But enough of the semantics. The Thai government offers very little in the way of decent welfare to its own people. So for the most part are no different.

 

You can still come here, utilise public infrastructure - roads, rail, power which is either subsided or under written by the Thai tax payer and visit doctors who were trained at a massive subsidy by the Thai government which is why their fees are so comparatively low.

 

So don’t say you receive nothing. It’s disingenuous at best and wilful ingnorance at worst. 

 

 

Or, you could argue that the creaking infrastructure is the result of decades of under investment which has little to do with migrants. This is obviously your argument but not mine. The relatively rapid arrival of so many people cannot be properly planned for, coped with or sustained. It takes a lot longer to build a hospital than ride a ferry.

 

After all, in particular EU migrants, they work and pay tax for the most part, no? Some do, some don't. Many pay very little.

 

As for your last comment, not unusual for the TV mob to find themselves hot and bothered when it comes to being compared to ‘immigrants’. Hot and bothered? No. Just pointing out that the vast majority of expats in Thailand are essentially just visitors with no particular rights, to remain or otherwise. You can mess about with words as much as you want but this extension of stay is still allowed on the non-immigrant basis of the original visa.

 

You can still come here, utilise public infrastructure - roads, rail, power which is either subsided or under written by the Thai tax payer and visit doctors who were trained at a massive subsidy by the Thai government which is why their fees are so comparatively low. Another complete non-argument. If access to transport, energy, medical facilities and other services were to be denied to visitors then there would be no foreign business investment and no tourist industry.

 

So save your disingenuous and wilful ignorance line for your dramatic society. 

[nauseus]

12 minutes ago, KhaoNiaw said:

Britain already had this option under EU law anyway but UK governments CHOSE not to apply it (presumably because of the costs involved). 

I suppose. It would cost a fortune just to locate the ones they really need to find.

[Spidey]

31 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Why can't people access doctors? Well a lot of them have gone back to the continent because they have progressively seen that there is something sick in the English Psyche, and feel their contribution is not valued.

Actually the opposite is true. At my local surgery, the doctors are almost entirely non British, the majority being locums or on short term contracts. The problem was created when the government severely curtailed GP earnings. Many doctors, particularly practice partners, took early retirement and young, newly qualified doctors no longer see it as a viable career path. The recruitment of GPs from within the UK has fallen to virtually zero.

[samran]

29 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Or, you could argue that the creaking infrastructure is the result of decades of under investment which has little to do with migrants. This is obviously your argument but not mine. The relatively rapid arrival of so many people cannot be properly planned for, coped with or sustained. It takes a lot longer to build a hospital than ride a ferry.

 

After all, in particular EU migrants, they work and pay tax for the most part, no? Some do, some don't. Many pay very little.

 

As for your last comment, not unusual for the TV mob to find themselves hot and bothered when it comes to being compared to ‘immigrants’. Hot and bothered? No. Just pointing out that the vast majority of expats in Thailand are essentially just visitors with no particular rights, to remain or otherwise. You can mess about with words as much as you want but this extension of stay is still allowed on the non-immigrant basis of the original visa.

 

You can still come here, utilise public infrastructure - roads, rail, power which is either subsided or under written by the Thai tax payer and visit doctors who were trained at a massive subsidy by the Thai government which is why their fees are so comparatively low. Another complete non-argument. If access to transport, energy, medical facilities and other services were to be denied to visitors then there would be no foreign business investment and no tourist industry.

 

So save your disingenuous and wilful ignorance line for your dramatic society. 

Okay, gotchya

 

Immigrants back home who work and pay taxes are a drain on the system but us ‘expats’ here in Thailand and do neither aren’t a drain at all.

 

Totally logical. I guess that’s why the government is enforcing the 800k in the bank more strictly for the old codgers and looking for ways to make them get health insurance. 

 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, samran said:

Okay, gotchya

 

Immigrants back home who work and pay taxes are a drain on the system but us ‘expats’ here in Thailand and do neither aren’t a drain at all.

 

Totally logical. I guess that’s why the government is enforcing the 800k in the bank more strictly for the old codgers and looking for ways to make them get health insurance. 

 

 

All your own words about two entirely different issues. It's like a reply to yourself.

[Loiner]

4 hours ago, Spidey said:

Trolling I can handle. I just give back as good as I get, as you've probably noticed. Running to the mods? Not my style, beneath me, although it's happened to me on this forum, more timed than I could count, more regularly than any forum than I've been a member of, but that's TV for you. Why? Is that what you do?

Nay, not I sir. I'd come back to you again. Could have been your tag team partner I suppose, but are you sure it wasn't you? Sounds like you would.

[Spidey]

48 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Nay, not I sir. I'd come back to you again. Could have been your tag team partner I suppose, but are you sure it wasn't you? Sounds like you would.

Someone, I can't remember who, posted some fact without a link. On the strength of that, the mods deleted it. He then posted it again, with a totally irrelevant link. I pointed out that the mods were likely to delete it again.

 

I did tell you that I have never reported a post to the mods. Are you calling me a <deleted> lair?

[Scott]

Posts discussing moderation have been removed.  

 

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, Spidey said:

Actually the opposite is true. At my local surgery, the doctors are almost entirely non British, the majority being locums or on short term contracts. The problem was created when the government severely curtailed GP earnings. Many doctors, particularly practice partners, took early retirement and young, newly qualified doctors no longer see it as a viable career path. The recruitment of GPs from within the UK has fallen to virtually zero.

 

where do UK educated physicians work then?

[samran]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

where do UK educated physicians work then?

Australia, NZ for starters. Same with nurses. 

[melvinmelvin]

14 minutes ago, samran said:

Australia, NZ for starters. Same with nurses. 

 

jeez man, is this true?

 

pretty weird in my view

 

 

[Spidey]

9 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

where do UK educated physicians work then?

Hospitals. US. Middle East.

[samran]

So Japan suspending trade talks with the UK as they expect they’ll be able to get a better deal post brexit.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/5ce60af2-2b90-11e9-a5ab-ff8ef2b976c7

[7by7]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 1:03 AM, Laughing Gravy said:

Show me where I have listened to this man.

If you can't then apologise.

Your  reply to me

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 12:25 AM, Laughing Gravy said:

Again you are wrong in every way. You seem to be a snowflake apologist. I still remember you defending a certain religion and throwing around certain names. If someone disagrees with you then the racist, xenophobic card comes out. I am a British citizen and could still vote in the referendum. A patriot.

 

You should stop reading the Guardian and Independent newspapers. Unemployment is lower than ever. Inflation is one of the best in Europe. Continue with your tinfoil hat theories. I find people who are anti British, seem to hate the country and want to see the country fail, the problem. I believe you are one of these.

is ample evidence of your beliefs, which are very similar to those held, or at least espoused, by the violent fraudster Yaxley-Lennon.

 

There is no need for myself nor anyone else to provide evidence of your xenophobia and racism; you have provided ample evidence of it yourself.

 

You call yourself a patriotic British citizen who has served his country; yet want to abolish all the rights and freedoms my father and his generation fought 6 years of bloody war to defend.  

 

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 12:25 AM, Laughing Gravy said:

Trying to discredit that I have a voice or opinion because I don't live in the UK at the moment, is cheap.

Not what I said, as anyone who can read knows. Still, lying spin is par for the course for you and your ilk. Another lesson you've picked up from Stevie boy.

 

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 12:25 AM, Laughing Gravy said:

Please do not reply as you will not get another response from me.

Mean it this time?

 

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 10:44 PM, Laughing Gravy said:

Don't bother replying I now know why I use to ignore your replies.

 

 

 

 

[Loiner]

On 2/16/2019 at 7:14 PM, Spidey said:

Are you calling me a <deleted> lair?

Your first response was very smug. The second time you went to the trouble of pointing it out you sounded almost self-satisfied. I guess its the type of thing you would do.   

[7by7]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 2:22 AM, rixalex said:

A patriot wouldn't make the sweeping and unfair judgements that you do on your "fellow" countrymen.

You seem to be addressing the wrong poster; it is Laughing Gravy who has consistently made such sweeping, unfair and indeed unfounded statements about not just myself, but anyone who does not support not only Brexit but his own, oft stated in this and other topics, xenophobia and racism.

 

The quote from him in my previous post is ample evidence of that.

[7by7]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 5:26 AM, Loiner said:

Sorry darling. I’m not squirming, far from it, laughing at your last post to me. It simply reinforces my observations on your supportive agenda is specially selected - it all is for any poster. You attached something about Facebook ads and something from an outfit called ‘Centre for Social Investigations’. (Who are they?) The veracity of either of these is suspect.

Do you believe all the sources in that post are suspect? Including Michael Gove?

 

The 'something about Facebook ads' comes from a reputable source; ITN via Channel 4 news. Those ads from Vote.Leave were real, did exist. But like their anti immigration videos on YouTube they have since been deleted by Vote.Leave themselves. At least Farage has the courage of his convictions and kept his Leave.EU anti immigration propaganda open to public view post referendum!

 

The Centre for Social Investigation (CSI) is an interdisciplinary research group based at Nuffield College, Oxford University. You have heard of Oxford University, I take it?

 

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 5:26 AM, Loiner said:

The difference is that I don’t wail about your posts being all lies.

I try to provide sources to my facts; even if you are so desperate to disparage them that you are now claiming you don't know who ITN and Oxford University are and therefore 'The veracity of either of these is suspect'

 

You, on the other hand, have on at least one occasion provided a link to your source; a source which didn't mention your list of 'facts' at all! When challenged on this your reply was along

the lines of 'can't be bothered!'

 

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 5:26 AM, Loiner said:

I also don’t hurl abusive names at posters in an effort to shut them down. Eg calling them xenophobe and racists. I’m very comfortable with my own arguments and happily dismiss yours, without the histrionics 

As already explained; when people post xenophobic and racists remarks, then xenophobe and racist is what I will call them.

 

When the 'facts' upon which people (you) have based their 'your' arguments are obviously completely made up, I will say so.

 

Dismiss my arguments all you like; but you can't dismiss the facts (facts not opinions) upon which they are based.

 

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 5:26 AM, Loiner said:

You do realise doncha, that ‘pal’ doesn’t necessarily mean we’re friends.

You do realise, don't you, that my remark was meant as an insult. Ask a friend to explain. But as you are now calling me 'darling' it seems you have a crush on me! Sorry, but I'm taken; look elsewhere.

[7by7]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 7:10 AM, nauseus said:

EU free movement is not racist, as such. However, this broad right of large numbers of people to move to countries that afford better pay and benefits, at short notice, also produces great strain on that country's infrastructure, to the point that it breaks down. This is very evident in the UK today.

Spoken by someone who doesn't live in the UK and has no clue. As i look out my window I can see major building works. I regularly travel to London and see the same. There's Crossrail and HS2, the conversion of most of the motorway system to smart motorways etc., etc.. 

 

OK, these may not all be popular, but they are the very antithesis of infrastructure breaking down.

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 7:10 AM, nauseus said:

The peace that you imagine to be promoted by free movement is likely to be shattered if it continues in the UK to the point where enough native-born people can't access doctors, schools and homes etc.

Straight out of Vote.Leave's notorious anti EU migrant adverts. I'd show you one, such as the one showing an elderly British woman being pushed to the back of the queue in A&E by healthy looking men with eastern European accents, but immediately after the referendum Vote.Leave deleted them all from all social media; wonder why.

 

BTW, I can't see it from my window but a new state secondary school opened about a mile from where I live last September. Do you think this proves even more breaking down of the infrastructure? 

 

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 7:10 AM, nauseus said:

Your over 50’s in Thailand comment is not a valid comparison. There is no welfare for these non-immigrants.

The only reason EU migrants have access to some, not all, benefits and the NHS in the UK is because the approx. 1.5 million British nationals exercising a treaty right in another EU state have the same access to state benefits there.

 

That is what such agreements mean. If the UK and Thailand had a similar agreement then Thais would have freedom of movement here and Brits would have freedom of movement there. Though I'm sure you know that the welfare system in Thailand is well below that in the UK.

 

[7by7]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 8:35 AM, Nigel Garvie said:

I think that even among remainers, the majority think that complete free movement can cause many problems. David Cameron had it agreed that EU immigrants could only stay here for a very limited time if they couldn't support themselves. Why can't people access doctors? Well a lot of them have gone back to the continent because they have progressively seen that there is something sick in the English Psyche, and feel their contribution is not valued.

 The treaty rights under the FoM directive are:

• studying; must be able to support oneself;
• Working, employed or self employed;
• job seeker, see comment from KhaoNiaw quoted below;
• living on independent means, e.g. a pension.

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 9:10 AM, KhaoNiaw said:

Britain already had this option under EU law anyway but UK governments CHOSE not to apply it (presumably because of the costs involved).

Under the directive a job seeker has three months in which to find work, and they cannot claim any state aid from the host country during that time. If at the end of the three months they have not found work then they have to leave. But, as you say, the UK doesn't enforce this as much as we should; don't know the reason.

 

But in order to claim state benefits an EU national has to pass the habitual residence test. Easy to do for someone who has been working, paying tax and NICs but now lost their job, next to impossible for someone who has never worked in the UK at all.

 

There are many and varied reasons why there is a shortage of GPs; my own doctor retired last year and he's only in his 50s. Retired from the NHS, that is; works solely for BUPA now.

[nauseus]

14 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Spoken by someone who doesn't live in the UK and has no clue. As i look out my window I can see major building works. I regularly travel to London and see the same. There's Crossrail and HS2, the conversion of most of the motorway system to smart motorways etc., etc.. 

 

OK, these may not all be popular, but they are the very antithesis of infrastructure breaking down.

Straight out of Vote.Leave's notorious anti EU migrant adverts. I'd show you one, such as the one showing an elderly British woman being pushed to the back of the queue in A&E by healthy looking men with eastern European accents, but immediately after the referendum Vote.Leave deleted them all from all social media; wonder why.

 

BTW, I can't see it from my window but a new state secondary school opened about a mile from where I live last September. Do you think this proves even more breaking down of the infrastructure? 

 

The only reason EU migrants have access to some, not all, benefits and the NHS in the UK is because the approx. 1.5 million British nationals exercising a treaty right in another EU state have the same access to state benefits there.

 

That is what such agreements mean. If the UK and Thailand had a similar agreement then Thais would have freedom of movement here and Brits would have freedom of movement there. Though I'm sure you know that the welfare system in Thailand is well below that in the UK.

 

Picking me out for lack of anything better to do? I am British and I'm in the UK often enough to "have a clue", while many of those that live there permanently seem to be blind to the slow deterioration of the country - or perhaps they are suffering in silence?. Your sensationalist rants make no difference to this.

[7by7]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Picking me out for lack of anything better to do?

Picking you out? How so? I quoted and addressed other members before and after the one post in which I quoted and addressed one post of yours. Don't flatter yourself.

 

10 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I am British and I'm in the UK often enough to "have a clue", while many of those that live there permanently seem to be blind to the slow deterioration of the country - or perhaps they are suffering in silence?. Your sensationalist rants make no difference to this.

 

So you, a self confessed occasional visitor, are claiming to know more about everyday life here than those of us who are also British but actually live here; claiming that you have a clue whereas us British residents are blind to the realities! Rather arrogant of you. 

 

As for suffering in silence; on you visits you must have missed the many, and loud, demonstrations, both pro Remain and pro Brexit, which fill the TV and radio news and papers here on an almost daily basis and have done since the start of the referendum campaign in 2016! 

 

But maybe your last visit was before that?

[CG1 Blue]

On 2/16/2019 at 4:22 AM, rixalex said:

You implied in a previous post that support of free movement is racist. It isn’t. 

 

Is it discriminatory and preferential? Yep. That is the nature and the raisin d’etre of economic blocs at their most basic. I’ve got no great issue with that all things considered. 

I thought the raisin d'etre of economic blocs was for trade.  I don't think any other economic blocs have FOM do they? 

 

P.S. this was meant for Samran not rixalex! 

[7by7]

7 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I thought the raisin d'etre of economic blocs was for trade.  I don't think any other economic blocs have FOM do they? 

 

P.S. this was meant for Samran not rixalex! 

 

A few minutes research came up with four:

• Caribbean Single Market and Economy
• Central America-4 Free Mobility Agreement
• Eurasian Economic Union
• Gulf Cooperation Council

I'm sure there's more; and will be in the future. For example, one of the aims of the charter of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations is for it to become a union very similar to the EU, including the freedom of movement of people.

 

Then there is possibly the oldest still current; the Common Travel Area which means British, Irish, Isle of Man and Channel Island nationals have been able to freely move around, live, study, work and retire anywhere within the CTA since 1923. 

 

[nauseus]

40 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Picking you out? How so? I quoted and addressed other members before and after the one post in which I quoted and addressed one post of yours. Don't flatter yourself.

 

 

So you, a self confessed occasional visitor, are claiming to know more about everyday life here than those of us who are also British but actually live here; claiming that you have a clue whereas us British residents are blind to the realities! Rather arrogant of you. 

 

As for suffering in silence; on you visits you must have missed the many, and loud, demonstrations, both pro Remain and pro Brexit, which fill the TV and radio news and papers here on an almost daily basis and have done since the start of the referendum campaign in 2016! 

 

But maybe your last visit was before that?

 

If you really think I feel flattered that you reply to my posts, then you may be so sad to know that the opposite is true. But as you left me to the last (3 of my posts grouped) perhaps you think that I should be disappointed too?

 

I'm not saying that I know better than others but I am saying that I do get a regular opportunity to gauge changes in the UK, by actually not being there all of the time. When I return, then significant changes may immediately stand out. I do recognise that there are many that I will miss but it is this general effect that led to my questioning the effect that the EU has had on the UK, and why. It seems that you think that it's "arrogant" to have my own opinion? This is a Thai forum remember! 

 

I watch all of the Brexit news that I can (demos on TV, debates etc). which is easily available for viewing in Thailand and around the world (but you may not know that). There are also several good documentaries but I must say that I've never seen a convincing pro EU one! Maybe that's why remain lost?

 

My UK trip schedule is my business but has been regular - pre and post 2016.

 

And as far as following "everyday life" goes, well I still enjoy The Archers.  

[CG1 Blue]

18 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

A few minutes research came up with four:

• Caribbean Single Market and Economy
• Central America-4 Free Mobility Agreement
• Eurasian Economic Union
• Gulf Cooperation Council

I'm sure there's more; and will be in the future. For example, one of the aims of the charter of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations is for it to become a union very similar to the EU, including the freedom of movement of people.

 

Then there is possibly the oldest still current; the Common Travel Area which means British, Irish, Isle of Man and Channel Island nationals have been able to freely move around, live, study, work and retire anywhere within the CTA since 1923. 

 

Thanks, I stand corrected. 

 

But I would say these are hardly comparable, and they're not exactly heavyweights in terms of trade and world economies. 

 

Caribbean - Nations such as Barbados, Belize, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines

Central America - Guatemala, Honduras Etc. 

Eurasian - only Russia, Khazakstan, and Belarus

GCC - Ok, there are some relative heavyweights here, but there are restrictions on hundreds of activities in their FOM terms. 

 

 

[7by7]

36 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If you really think I feel flattered that you reply to my posts, then you may be so sad to know that the opposite is true. But as you left me to the last (3 of my posts grouped) perhaps you think that I should be disappointed too?

1) Sad, no; it was you who boasted that I was 'picking' you out! Now you seem disappointed to find that I wasn't.

 

2) I left you 'til last as i was replying to posts in the order they were posted. 

 

3) Three of your posts grouped? No. Even though you obviously cannot remember what you have posted and when, the mere fact that the three quotes all have the same date and time is a bit of a giveaway that they are from the same post!

 

41 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I'm not saying that I know better than others

Really? So what did you mean by

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

many of those that live there permanently seem to be blind to the slow deterioration of the country

?

 

But, of course, all of us who post our opinions are saying that we know better than those who disagree with us. But some of us provide evidence to back that up; why don't you?

 

43 minutes ago, nauseus said:

It seems that you think that it's "arrogant" to have my own opinion? This is a Thai forum remember! 

That is not what I said, and you know it. What i said was that it was rather arrogant of you to state that

 

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

you, a self confessed occasional visitor, are claiming to know more about everyday life here than those of us who are also British but actually live here; claiming that you have a clue whereas us British residents are blind to the realities!

Reverting to the misquoting trick does you no favours.

 

The rest of your post is your usual inconsequential waffle.

[Laughing Gravy]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

There is no need for myself nor anyone else to provide evidence of your xenophobia and racism; you have provided ample evidence of it yourself.

Because you can't. Simple as that.

[Scott]

A post containing profanity has been removed.  

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, 7by7 said:

1) Sad, no; it was you who boasted that I was 'picking' you out! Now you seem disappointed to find that I wasn't.

 

2) I left you 'til last as i was replying to posts in the order they were posted. 

 

3) Three of your posts grouped? No. Even though you obviously cannot remember what you have posted and when, the mere fact that the three quotes all have the same date and time is a bit of a giveaway that they are from the same post!

 

Really? So what did you mean by

 

?

 

But, of course, all of us who post our opinions are saying that we know better than those who disagree with us. But some of us provide evidence to back that up; why don't you?

 

That is not what I said, and you know it. What i said was that it was rather arrogant of you to state that

 

Reverting to the misquoting trick does you no favours.

 

The rest of your post is your usual inconsequential waffle.

If what I say is so inconsequential, then don't bother reading it.