13 minutes ago, rixalex said:

If British people don't want May as their PM, they can vote for a party that doesn't have her as their leader. If the British people don't want Juncker as President of the EU, they can do what?

They can vote with their feet as the saying says..., majority you know ….sounds familiar like the  "Democratic (??) 52/48 result " is terribly  dividing your country now and for years 

Just now, Keithmovieman said:

Why would anyone want to be a member of the EU, when that little club of unelected bureaucrats most probably wont even be around in another decade?

Madness.

Leave while you still can and dont give them a penny of that sixty billion GB Pounds either. 

 

 

You really have absolutely no idea how the EU works and is governed do you?

 

 

12 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

unfortunately for them but she had to fight for it didn't she?

Not at all. No one else wanted the job. They all deliberately stabbed each other in the front to debar each other from the contest.

 

Gove to Johnson, "Sorry about dumping on your leadership campaign"

Johnson to Gove, "No problem old chap, just what I needed, why don't you fall on your sword for dumping on me?"

Gove to Johnson, "Ripping idea old chap, see you down the Bullingdon Club for drinkypoos."

 

The minute Brexit is resolved, it will be the night of the long knives, she will be put to the sword for a disasterous Brexit, as wasa always planned, and the real leadership contest will begin.

 

Theresa May, the Bullingdon Club's fall guy, I almost feel sorry for the poor cow.

48 minutes ago, steve187 said:

May was elected by the people in a national election, as much as any PM is elected by the people, the PM is normally the leader of the party that gets the most votes

 

No she wasn't. People vote for MP's who may represent a particular party or be independent. 

 

May became leader of the in-government Tory party after Cameron did a runner. As such she automatically became PM. She called an election and lost her majority although managed to keep in government, and as Tory leader, the PM role by being propped up by the DUP.

 

Just so you know, Juncker is appointed by the Council of Leaders - those EU member state democratically elected leaders, who are responsible to the people. Juncker is responsible to them and too the EU parliament - the MEP's many people in the UK never bothered voting for!

24 minutes ago, rixalex said:

If British people don't want May as their PM, they can vote for a party that doesn't have her as their leader. If the British people don't want Juncker as President of the EU, they can do what?

"Brexitttt"!????

Edited February 7, 20197 yr by evadgib

28 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

are you sure, back it up,  or is it out of desperation comment, are you referring to Norway, Canada complete different deals, do not mix apples and oranges

I beg your p(iss)

 

Norway Liechtenstein and Iceland are perfect examples of countries being in SM

without being EU member

As to CU, there are MANY examples, however, the deal that the UK parliament ditched is a CU example.

 

do your homework

 

1 hour ago, Mavideol said:

you mean new elections, correct? house cleaning is longtime due, after Cameron left it should have been done, that Johnson guy is a messed up one, btw, where is he now, longtime no see

I really don't know but we can not go on like this. Disband existing parties? Deselect ALL MPs? Minimum 50% independents? PR? A big pit, a machine gun and lots of lime?

7 minutes ago, evadgib said:

"Brexitttt"!????

????

The majority of voters decided to leave the EU, NOT the Single Market or Customs Union which May tacked on afterwards, and got it past parliament. And this is now becoming the sticking point in the latest quest by her to persuade the EU not to have a backstop.

The EU is exactly the SG and CU. That’s what it’s whole basis. Euro currency, ECJ are the add-ons towards Federal EU, EU army etc.
That’s what we voted against.

Backstop is a red herring that is coming back to bite the EU arse.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

2 hours ago, Mavideol said:

you mean new elections, correct? house cleaning is longtime due, after Cameron left it should have been done, that Johnson guy is a messed up one, btw, where is he now, longtime no see

The Labour party did exactly that. Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

 

Johnson is keeping his head down until Brexit is over and done with, he doesn't want to catch any of the flack.

 

The last words he was heard to utter were, "I'll be back!"

 

Surprised that he didn't join his Dad on "I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here". Probably thought that he wouldn't win.

Edited February 7, 20197 yr by Spidey

1 hour ago, Pilotman said:

No need to be so dismissive of the options of others.  I know the history, I lived through lot of it.  Where did i say anything about the Polish or the army? I think instead of dismissing me, you need to read posts more carefully. As to the future.  I was quite clear on why I voted leave, what I wanted from leaving  and what I now  want to happen. I don't owe you or anyone else an explanation, although I have listed the reasons in previous posts. 

I should have explained myself more clearly. Sorry

 

1) Tusk has said that the EU is first and foremost a peace project. I agree. Poland's WW2 horrendous experience followed by decades behind the iron curtain must give a certain clarity

 

2) Secondly, but related, I think of all people, Poles may be forgiven for being direct; blunt even. From a Polish view point, the UK's lack of clarity (nebulous?) and infighting must be exasperating.

It's fair to assume May will be replaced before the conference season kicks off in October enabling whoever is next to make a go of post-Brexit governing before heading into the 2022 GE.

Edited February 7, 20197 yr by evadgib

34 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I really don't know but we can not go on like this. Disband existing parties? Deselect ALL MPs? Minimum 50% independents? PR? A big pit, a machine gun and lots of lime?

Power to the people!

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

If the British people don't want Juncker as President of the EU, they can do what?

The same the Germans can do with regards to their president. So what?

3 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

Power to the people!

Maybe....it is coming ….

22 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I should have explained myself more clearly. Sorry

 

1) Tusk has said that the EU is first and foremost a peace project. I agree. Poland's WW2 horrendous experience followed by decades behind the iron curtain must give a certain clarity

 

2) Secondly, but related, I think of all people, Poles may be forgiven for being direct; blunt even. From a Polish view point, the UK's lack of clarity (nebulous?) and infighting must be exasperating.

Fair enough. Yes, I agree with that view, but at sometime, we must, as Europeans, let go of that and move on, as separate, independent, sovereign Nations, but also as friends.  My Grandparents were Lithuanian and came to the UK as poor immigrants. so Immigration was never the issue for me, or my family, to us, it's all about democratic accountability, something ex Iron Curtain countries must understand all too well. Historically, its rather ironic that they throw off the yoke of one undemocratic ruling class, to embrace another of a different but similar kind. Odd that.   

This reinforces the points raised earlier:

 

3 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

 we must, as Europeans, let go of that and move on, as separate, independent, sovereign Nations, but also as friends. 

All European nations are “separate, independent, sovereign Nations” to a large extent. In a globalized world, there will necessarily be some interdependencies though, unless you want to be North-Korea (and even they depend on the protection from China). 

 

Further, why must be “separate” nations? I couldn’t care less what’s written on my passport, as long as it benefits me. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, evadgib said:

This reinforces the points raised earlier:

 

But it seems U.K.having trouble to find the way out ….! 

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

All European nations are “separate, independent, sovereign Nations” to a large extent. In a globalized world, there will necessarily be some interdependencies though, unless you want to be North-Korea (and even they depend on the protection from China). 

 

Further, why must be “separate” nations? I couldn’t care less what’s written on my passport, as long as it benefits me. 

 

 

Can't answer to that view. 

3 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Historically, its rather ironic that they throw off the yoke of one undemocratic ruling class, to embrace another of a different but similar kind. Odd that.   

You still haven't said what's undemocratic about the EU or the UK.

 

BTW. Your grandparents were lucky. My father was born in Spain and raised in Morocco. My father joined the British army in WW2 having never been to the UK and speaking no English. After fighting for Britain for 5 years, he was told that he had no entitlement to a British passport. He was unable to get a Spanish or Moroccan passport either. Travelled on a Nansen passport for years. Finally got his British passport when he was 50.

 

The British disdain for immigrants runs deep.

7 minutes ago, evadgib said:

This reinforces the points raised earlier:

 

And reminding 16,141,241 Brits what a bunch of idiots Brexiteers are.

1 minute ago, Spidey said:

You still haven't said what's undemocratic about the EU or the UK.

 

BTW. Your grandparents were lucky. My father was born in Spain and raised in Morocco. My father joined the British army in WW2 having never been to the UK and speaking no English. After fighting for Britain for 5 years, he was told that he had no entitlement to a British passport. He was unable to get a Spanish or Moroccan passport either. Travelled on a Nansen passport for years. Finally got his British passport when he was 50.

 

The British disdain for immigrants runs deep.

Do you not know that the President and all of the Commissioners who run the EU are non elected? The voters of the EU have no right or mechanism to change them if they screw up or are corrupt. That surely the very definition of undemocratic. 

 

Sorry to hear about your father.  Obviously a brave man who was shabbily treated by the UK authorities. 

2 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Do you not know that the President and all of the Commissioners who run the EU are non elected? The voters of the EU have no right or mechanism to change them if they screw up or are corrupt. That surely the very definition of undemocratic. 

So Germany is undemocratic because the Germans cannot vote their president out or in? Sure, if you make up your own definitions. But then I can also turn an elephant into a pig. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 20197 yr by welovesundaysatspace

2 minutes ago, Spidey said:

And reminding 16,141,241 Brits what a bunch of idiots Brexiteers are.

I shall wear that with honour????

..... and those who promoted Britain's exit without any understanding of how to deliver it ....

 

Tusk basically says the right thing and he lives up to his mission: to 100% express the interests of the EU.

Of course, then he is perceived as an opponent of the Brexiteers.

 

A Brexit could have been made much smarter and with less damage for everyone.

 

But to do such a gigantic project like Brexit without a fundamental plan is grossly negligent and idiotic.

 

The information behavior of the electorate is also interesting. First vote and then inform. That's Brexit. 

 

 A look at Google Trends shows that two hours after closing the polling stations, the search for "What happens if we leave EU?" Exploded:

 

2 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Do you not know that the President and all of the Commissioners who run the EU are non elected? The voters of the EU have no right or mechanism to change them if they screw up or are corrupt. That surely the very definition of undemocratic. 

 

They have the same rights as the British public to change the PM who, also, isn't elected by the public. They vote for an MEP who has campaigned to remove them.

3 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

You agreed. Every step of the way, you agreed. Every treaty, you agreed. Every new rule, you agreed. Every new policy, you agreed. If you hadn't agreed, you could have left, but you didn't. You stayed, and thus you agreed.

One of the main planks of the argument for leaving is that the EU has changed considerably from the trading organisation which we entered, and confirmed membership of with the 1975 referendum.

Those changes have been ratified by Parliament. In the cases of (at least the two main treaties which significantly changed the EU, and laid the foundations for the putative federal state which it now is): Maastricht and Lisbon, they were ratified by a heavily whipped vote in Parliament, with many Parliamentary rebels. In both cases the Government managed to assemble a majority, but it was arguably against the popular will. The Lisbon Treaty was so unpopular that it was signed, with no publicity, in the ante room of a hotel during an EU summit!

 

The referendum was the result of a long running campaign for a vote on the matter, going back at least as far as Maastricht. The EU had changed from a trading partnership, and was fast becoming a federal state, albeit one not distinguished by the level of democratic representation enjoyed in Canada (or the US). The political establishment had managed to close down the debate on this, particularly at successive general elections, although UKIP snapping at the heels of the Tories in particular led to the referendum being called! The result was a shock to that political establishment. They seem to have reacted by basically trying to arrange "business as usual" whilst claiming by to be arranging for Brexit. They have actually made no real preparations for leaving. They have been rumbled. Hence the "steaming crock of shit" analogy.

3 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Sorry, to ask me to react in the North American context to an EU situation simply doesn't work; Canada chose NOT to enter into an agreement like the EU.

I fully accept that NAFTA is not comparable to the EU, but I stand by asked by how you would regard a Mexican politician telling you what to do.

3 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Second, the argument in favour of leaving for cultural/identity reasons does hold some validity to me, even though I think it is wrong here. Simply put, in my view the British culture has sustained itself for generations and generations and is much more resilient that the EU influence. I think we disagree on that, so lets just leave it there for now.

As the EU moves towards its "ever closer union" it is to many of us clear that this inevitably means common fiscal, legislative and judicial systems, together with a universal common currecy. We would have to adopt the Euro, and change to a more codified "Napoleonic" judicial and legal systems. Trial by Jury and Common Law would be likely to go. Massive cultural changes for the UK, which even the most resilient nation could not absorb. These are admittedly over the horizon, but nevertheless to be considered. I think that the pressure for them is inevitable.

3 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Sorry, but you would not re-model a bathroom without a plan (this was a point made by another member above...

Perhaps one could ask whether you could accept a remodeling plan for your bathroom, in which your kitchen was removed, to be replaced by your new bathroom, the fittings colour scheme and contractors for said remodeling being decided by a committee nominated by other householders in your neighborhood, and to an arbitrary timescale over which you had little control. Oh, and a couple of households in the next street wanted new bathrooms as well, but couldn't afford them, so you would be required to contribute towards them.

Extending analogies is always imprecise, but perhaps that illustrates where many of us see our place in the EU.

 

Finally, yes I am angry with my Parliament and government. More angry than I have ever been in 40 odd years of following and thinking about politics and governance in my country. I think that they have managed, through a combination of deceit and woeful incompetence, to make a difficult, challenging process which was however within the ability of our nation to resolve, into a steaming crock of shit.

2 minutes ago, evadgib said:

I shall wear that with honour????

Have you got a tweet for that?

3 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Do you not know that the President and all of the Commissioners who run the EU are non elected?

Why keep spreading these falsehoods?

 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/8/how-are-the-commission-president-and-commissioners-appointed