Council Tax In The Uk

[mrbojangles]

Hi guys and gals.

Spoke to a friend today who had just got a rebate from the council for paying too much council tax. Before he got married he was getting the 25% single persons discount. Then he brought his Mrs over from Thailand and notified the council that she was living there. He then lost his 25% discount.

A few month's later he tried to put her on the electorial register but they said "No" until she get's her ILR as she is just a "Visitor" until then. So he called the Citizens Advice Bereau and they said that is correct but she also shouldn't be paying Council Tax. So he went to the Council and although he had to argue his point (they didn't make it easy) he won and they refunded him and put him back on the 25% discount.

Now this is news to me as i've not heard of this before. Has anyone else heard or can confirm this? If it is so, i'm sure quite a few on here might be due a rebate.

[briley]

This is probably true.

If a person is not resident in the UK they are not liable to council tax.

If only one person in a house is liable for council tax then you get a 25% reduction.

BUT

If nobody is liable for the tax because nobody actually lives there it can be classes as a second home. In Wales this means you always pay 100% of the tax and I believe this option is now available to English councils, although some still only charge a lower rate of tax.

Hence if you have a house in the UK (England and Wales) make sure one person resides there and all others are non-residents in the UK!

[the scouser]

It always struck me as unfair that a Thai citizen can't register to vote, but is liable to council tax, and it looks like Mr. BoJ and his mate may have provided the answer.

Having had a read of the notes that come with the electoral registration form, I don't believe that even a Thai with ILR can register to vote as the information says that in order to qualify for inclusion one must be either British, or Irish, or a citizen of a Commonwealth country, or a citizen of an EU country, and, of course, a Thai fits none of those categories. My understanding has always been that only once naturalised as a Brit. cit. will a Thai be able to go on the voters roll. In that case, should the Thai decide not to naturalise, and thereby not be included on the electoral register, does this mean that s/he will never be liable for council tax?

Scouse.

[samran]

Doubt it scouse.

When we were in the UK, my wife and I signed a lease on a place. We are non-UK/EU nationals. We basically notified the council and they happily accepted our payments. It was good enough for them that we were on the lease. It had nothing to do with being on the electoral roll.

My wife and I didn't register to vote until 6 months into our stay (good for credit score) but we could do this as Commonwealth nationals.

I really think it has to do with who is habitually living there. If your name isn't on the bills, they'll have a hard time proving that someone is actually living there. But I'd suspect that if you were married they'd be ready to pounce, regardless if you are on the roll or not.

[mrbojangles]

But I'd suspect that if you were married they'd be ready to pounce, regardless if you are on the roll or not.

I know what your'e saying Samran. But my mate hadn't been rumbled, he freely started to pay but after talking to the Cit Advice, he challenged the council and got a rebate.

I have no reason to not believe him but admit i was taken aback. Just wondering if anyone else actually knows the score. Maybe he just blagged the dim wit in the council, into submission. I don't know.

[samran]

But I'd suspect that if you were married they'd be ready to pounce, regardless if you are on the roll or not.

I know what your'e saying Samran. But my mate hadn't been rumbled, he freely started to pay but after talking to the Cit Advice, he challenged the council and got a rebate.

I have no reason to not believe him but admit i was taken aback. Just wondering if anyone else actually knows the score. Maybe he just blagged the dim wit in the council, into submission. I don't know.

I don't doubt him either. You know what, if the council believed his argument after freely starting to pay (like you said) then good on him. I might need to contact the London Borough of Tower Hamlets asking for 300 squid back from my 18 months there.

[Mossfinn]

Mr Boj,

As far as I can remember, I used to have the 25% discount and when the the Girlfriend later wife turned up I checked the small print of the Council tax rules, and I am convinced that it was quite clear that she she didn't qualify for the tax, so I never notified them until years later.

Can't remember the wording now, but we certainly never paid the full 100% score, I reckon he CAB are correct.

Good Luck

Moss

[GU22]

As far as I am aware, if one is in the UK for a "settled purpose" then one is classed as a resident and so would be liable for council tax.

A "settled purpose" would include someone with a fiance visa, proposed civil partner visa, spouse visa, further leave to remain etc., not just ILR.

Persons with ILR are not eligible to vote and so are not eligible to be placed on the electoral register. Unless, of course, they are also either British, or Irish, or a citizen of a Commonwealth country, or a citizen of an EU country.

MrBJ, if your friend reckons the council and CAB told him his wife can vote once she has ILR, then I would be very careful about believing anything else he reckons they said.

If someone is resident in a council's area and using the services of that council, why should they not pay tax like the rest of us?

Scouse, when you say "It always struck me as unfair that a Thai citizen can't register to vote, but is liable to council tax" does this mean you were in favour of the poll tax?

[Mossfinn]

If someone is resident in a council's area and using the services of that council, why should they not pay tax like the rest of us?

Probably agree with you on this, however a lot of things don't add up in this country and if the Gov'y/Council are willing to take with one hand they must be prepared to have others follow the wording of their own rules and not give when it is not required.

Would you pay a tax that was not required even if you thought it was fair to do so?

Good Luck

Moss

[the scouser]

The unfairness to which I alluded is not necessarily in relation to their having to pay the council tax, but that they are ineligible to vote and thereby influence the composition of the very council towards which they pay. After all, no taxation without representation is hardly a new concept, it having first been chanted by the Bostonians as they held their tea party.

I did, however, abhor the poll tax (although I'm too young to have ever had to pay it ), for the reason that it was a regressive tax which adversely effected the less well off in society.

Scouse.

[Mahout Angrit]

If a thai wife is exempt from council tax, one wonders how much a Thai family living and working in UK with a WP but not permanant resident are due to pay. On the arguments above they should pay nothing.........then the asylum seekers???. No no it can't be true

Edited February 25, 2007 by Mahout Angrit

[niggle]

I ahve just read the advice from CAB and others. As far as I can make out, the 25% discounts is only eligible when the persons spouse is a student - the CAB advice site says "

a spouse or a dependant of a student and a non British Citizen who is not allowed under immigration rules, either to work in the UK or claim benefit"

However I would be really really pleased if this applies to all people !!

[mrbojangles]

MrBJ, if your friend reckons the council and CAB told him his wife can vote once she has ILR, then I would be very careful about believing anything else he reckons they said.

Yep, i just called him to clarify. They didn't actually say that she could be put on the Electorial register once she got ILR. What they did say was that until she got ILR she is still considered a visitor and so therefore doesn't have to pay Council Tax.

[GU22]

Well, good luck to him if he can get away with it.

I still reckon that as his wife is, presumably, in the UK for a settled purpose that she is liable and so he loses the single occupants discount.

[Mahout Angrit]

Yep, i just called him to clarify. They didn't actually say that she could be put on the Electorial register once she got ILR.

As said earlier, it definitely says on the form inviting householders to add names to the electoral role that thay have to be British Citizens but if you were to add those who were not I wonder if any local council would check or even have the ability to check if that person really was British. If they were accepted they would, in due course, be invited to vote.

What they did say was that until she got ILR she is still considered a visitor and so therefore doesn't have to pay Council Tax.

I can't believe councils will fall for a trick like that, it would be interesting to hear other input.

[mrbojangles]

Well, good luck to him if he can get away with it.

I still reckon that as his wife is, presumably, in the UK for a settled purpose that she is liable and so he loses the single occupants discount.

What they did say was that until she got ILR she is still considered a visitor and so therefore doesn't have to pay Council Tax.

I can't believe councils will fall for a trick like that, it would be interesting to hear other input.

I tend to agree with you both and as such when they find out he will have to repay

Yep, i just called him to clarify. They didn't actually say that she could be put on the Electorial register once she got ILR.

As said earlier, it definitely says on the form inviting householders to add names to the electoral role that thay have to be British Citizens but if you were to add those who were not I wonder if any local council would check or even have the ability to check if that person really was British.

There are definately flaws in the system, so i wonder the same?

[briley]

Requirement to pay council tax and being on or entitlement to vote have no linkage what so ever.

If you have a place, owned or rented, in England or wales then you have to pay council tax. If only one person in the property is liable to tax (not students and a few other categories) then you get a 25% discount.

If nobody is living in the property, ie because you are in Thailand, then the council will class it as a second home and you pay 100%, even if you are just one person. This is true in Wales and the majority of English councils.

But if you live in the house - and just spend your holidays in Thailand and your wife/partner whatever lives in Thailand and just spends their holidays in the UK then only one person lives in the house (you) and you get the 25% discount.

It appears the length of the 'holiday' period is not defined and can be half a year or more or less.

It appears to be a completely legal way for a couple who spend much of their time in Thailand to only pay 75% of the council tax. Seems fair to me if you're not in the UK for most of the year.

Note that wife/partner doesn't have to be Thai, voter etc for this to apply.

[atlastaname]

A couple of years ago my partner was refused a unmarried partners visa by the BE in Bangkok and one of the reasons they cited (bet no-one has had this one before!!) is that although we claimed to be living together( we were living together) my partner was not paying council tax. I honestly never knew that was a requiremnt but you see it definately is and when i went into it furthur i was told YES the Thai partner MUST pay council tax even if here on a student visa and living together . The info that GU22 has posted above seems to me to be absolutley correct as my case has proved. In fact it appears from the replies i received at the time that even if a partner is here on a visitors visa , if the purpose of that visa is to build up time together for a future settlement application then council tax may also be paayble.!!

Now this last point goes furthur than GU22 suggests and may or may not be right. That is what i was toild. However there is NO doubt that the Thai partner MUST pay council tax even if they do not have ILR and even if they do not have FLR but are here on a settlement visa (e.g. proposed civil partner , fiancee )

[gregchambers]

Just to clarify Welsh house ownership and council tax - I own a property in Wales and the council people have my address in Thailand and I have never paid 100 percent tax when the house is vacant between rentals - I get the fifty percent discount. It is currently empty awaiting sale and unfurnished and because of the latter it is tax excempt for up to six months so paying nothing for now.

I have actually sneaked back several times with Thai girlfriend for a month or so and not informed the council and therefore kept the fifty percent discount as they thought it was empty! Can also ignore the water rates between rentals as not on a meter.

Naughty I know, but the local councils are notoriously inefficient and hopelessly overpriced and you have to keep them in their proper place!

[briley]

Sorry, my experience of Flintshire is that they will give 50% reduction for 6 months, but after that you pay 100% if empty. I've actually been to the valuation tribunal with them about this and thought it apllied to all councils in Wales.

[mrbojangles]

Update:-

I went to a friends house last night and the guy who first told me about this was there. I asked him about it again. He said he spoke to the Council office in Bury and they agreed that she just has visitor status so he doesn't have to pay.

Another guy was there and asked what we where talking about. We told him and he said that Rochdale Council told him the same and so he doesn't pay for his Mrs euither. So that's 2 different blokes in 2 different billing authorities!!

This is indeed a very shady area and i for one don't know what the truth is. All i can convey is what they have told me and i have NO doubt at all that they would tell me lies. I just hope the council don't realise they have made a mistake and then grab the money back 2 years down the line

Edited February 28, 2007 by mrbojangles

[RAZZELL]

I did, however, abhor the poll tax (although I'm too young to have ever had to pay it ), for the reason that it was a regressive tax which adversely effected the less well off in society.

Scouse.

Yeah, like taxes on booze and fags

RAZZ

[peterjackson]

Hey

I used to have a property which was in the billing jurisdiction of Blackburn with Darwen Council. It was classed as a property that I rented whilst away. When the property was rented, I was liable for 100% of the Tax, then when the property became vacant, I would get a 6 month period, where No Tax was payable and then 50% was payable for the rest of the time.

If it was going to be empty for an extended period of time, I showed it as being rented for 1 month, then empty for 6 and then rented for 1 month again. During this period I ended up paying 2 full months Tax out of every 12 month period.

I sold the property in 2004, so I couldn't tell you the present situation.

Kind Regards

Peter

[Welsh John]

My Council Tax Inspector lives 2 doors away from me and as I will be bringing the Mrs back from Thailand on the 11th March.

I have put the questions to him about the 25% discount and he said he was not sure.

He did ponder the fact that as the Mrs would be on a 2 year settlement visa then she would not be classed as resident but if she had the ILR then she would. He also mentioned that if she were a property owner then she would liable.

He also said that all property is liable for Council Tax by Law and that it is not payable only in circumstances where the property is Registered Exempt for one reason or another.

It's confusing but anyway he's going to find out and give me some answers when we get back.

[mrbojangles]

It's confusing but anyway he's going to find out and give me some answers when we get back.

Cheers John, it will be nice to hear an actual Council Tax Inspector's take on it. Although i'm a tad surprised he didn't know there and then.