California tells Trump that lawsuit over border wall is 'imminent'

[VincentRJ]

11 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

It was as easy as you say, why has there been a huge reduction in illegal immigration? Why are would be illegal immigrants paying coyotes thousands of dollars to get them across the border? E

Do you mean there's been a huge reduction in 'recorded' illegal immigration? If that's the case, it's probably because illegal immigrants are now taking full advantage of the wall-less sections of the border, before the wall is built, and are reluctant to take the conventional routes through customs-controlled entry points because of all the current government publicity against illegal immigration. Isn't that obvious? ????

[Thainesss]

21 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Why are would be illegal immigrants paying coyotes thousands of dollars to get them across the border?

 

The legal term is illegal aliens. 

 

And coyotes are subject matter experts on the porous areas of the border and how to cross with the greatest success. Close these areas with a wall, and continue to close the areas they move to with another wall, and boom! Border security. 

 

Not real difficult is it. 

[Becker]

9 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

 

The legal term is illegal aliens. 

 

And coyotes are subject matter experts on the porous areas of the border and how to cross with the greatest success. Close these areas with a wall, and continue to close the areas they move to with another wall, and boom! Border security. 

 

Not real difficult is it. 

No, it's not.

 

 

[Thainesss]

6 minutes ago, Becker said:

No, it's not.

 

Hows the ladder technique working so far? Last time they tried a rush on the fortified area of the border, they ate tear gas & got repelled. 

 

Fail to see how a thirty dollar Mexican ladder will help them. 

[Berkshire]

1 hour ago, Thainesss said:

 

You see, all this post is, is deflection. Denial. Finding any and all reason to bury your head in the sand and continue the status quo because you want and need it to continue to aid your party’s voter base. 

 

PS, from China, to Mexican cartels and into the USA. You know, those Mexican cartels that are more brutal than ISIS. 

[johnnybangkok]

13 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

 

You’re confused about what a deflection is. A deflection is what you’re doing by trying to condense the entire border emergency down into “what El Chapo did” so you can hang your straw man on it. 

 

Drugs are smuggled across the border. Fact. 

 

Humans are trafficked across the border. Fact. 

 

Hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens are apprehended trying to cross the border illegally every year. Fact. 

 

Hundreds of billions of tax payer dollars are spent every year on the emergency at the southern border. Fact. 

 

You can’t polish this turd with childish deflections, straw man arguments, and do-nothing defeatist attitudes. You want to listen to Democrat politicians with an agenda over CBP & Homeland? Go ahead but it speaks to your bias and agenda more than your willingness to solve this problem. 

Here are the reasons why the wall is a bad idea. These are the real facts:-

 

1. There is already 654 miles of barriers along the southern border covering the most vulnerable areas.

2. No one can actually come up with a true cost of the wall - Estimates range from $12 bn to $70bn. 650 miles of fencing built under George W. cost $7bn - and that was just fencing. Nothing like what Trump is proposing. 

3. Since it's peak in 2000, illegal southern border crossings have steadily declined from 1.6 million to just under 400k.  

4. Most illegal immigration (approx. 700k per year) comes from people overstaying their visa's. These people flew into the country so obviously a wall won't do much but do you hear Trump going on about these people?

4. Every congress person along the southern border (including Republicans) oppose the wall, arguing it will NOT improve security. Republican Will Hurd (Texas 23rd district) went as far as to say '..it's the most expensive and least effective way to do border security'. 

5. A wall will not stop drugs or human trafficking - apart from the fact that most drugs/trafficking come in via the sea, tunnels or private flights, what does come in over the border is smuggled in through legal ports of entry. That's because cartels much prefer to exploit the predictability of checkpoints than to scatter resources across open expanses of river and desert, that have little to no infrastructure. These are not stupid people. They have carefully studied how security operates at each check-point which means they can instantly respond to weakness. Or easier still, just pay out the money to a corrupt officer, willing to turn a blind eye. 

 

No sensible person opposes border security or clamping down on illegal immigration. They just oppose the ineffectiveness of this wall and the complete waste of money it will be. There are far better ways to spend this vast amount of money to get much better results. Trump and his people must know this and since he has had 2 years when Republicans controlled both houses and still didn't get it passed, the only conclusion must be this is a political stunt to re-animate his illiberal base who love nothing more than to blame immigrants for all their problems. 

[Becker]

19 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

 

Hows the ladder technique working so far? Last time they tried a rush on the fortified area of the border, they ate tear gas & got repelled. 

 

Fail to see how a thirty dollar Mexican ladder will help them. 

Yes, there's a great many things you fail to see.

[ricklev]

16 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Here are the reasons why the wall is a bad idea. These are the real facts:-

 

1. There is already 654 miles of barriers along the southern border covering the most vulnerable areas.

2. No one can actually come up with a true cost of the wall - Estimates range from $12 bn to $70bn. 650 miles of fencing built under George W. cost $7bn - and that was just fencing. Nothing like what Trump is proposing. 

3. Since it's peak in 2000, illegal southern border crossings have steadily declined from 1.6 million to just under 400k.  

4. Most illegal immigration (approx. 700k per year) comes from people overstaying their visa's. These people flew into the country so obviously a wall won't do much but do you hear Trump going on about these people?

4. Every congress person along the southern border (including Republicans) oppose the wall, arguing it will NOT improve security. Republican Will Hurd (Texas 23rd district) went as far as to say '..it's the most expensive and least effective way to do border security'. 

5. A wall will not stop drugs or human trafficking - apart from the fact that most drugs/trafficking come in via the sea, tunnels or private flights, what does come in over the border is smuggled in through legal ports of entry. That's because cartels much prefer to exploit the predictability of checkpoints than to scatter resources across open expanses of river and desert, that have little to no infrastructure. These are not stupid people. They have carefully studied how security operates at each check-point which means they can instantly respond to weakness. Or easier still, just pay out the money to a corrupt officer, willing to turn a blind eye. 

 

No sensible person opposes border security or clamping down on illegal immigration. They just oppose the ineffectiveness of this wall and the complete waste of money it will be. There are far better ways to spend this vast amount of money to get much better results. Trump and his people must know this and since he has had 2 years when Republicans controlled both houses and still didn't get it passed, the only conclusion must be this is a political stunt to re-animate his illiberal base who love nothing more than to blame immigrants for all their problems. 

Well reasoned, but why bother when facts and reason don't matter?

[zydeco]

5 hours ago, Tug said:

Don’t want to pop your balloon but you do realize California has the 4 th largest economy on the planet they have a budget surplus in the billions just saying lol

CalPERS alone has an unfunded liability of $168 billion.

[attrayant]

1 hour ago, Thainesss said:

by any means necessary. 

 

That's truly scary.  You don't care how many people have to die for you to get your 5% of a border wall.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, Thainesss said:

 

Weird. Libs didn’t have a single care for the executive overreach by previous presidents, but now all of a sudden it’s about the constitution (lol libs & the constitution) and separation of powers. 

 

Blatant hypocrisy. 

Perhaps you can give us examples of previous Presidents declaring a National Emergency in order to bypass Congress having rejected the Presidents policy?

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, Thainesss said:

 

Trump using executive power to secure the nations borders and the sovereignty of our rebublic is “brazen” and “flaunting of power”? 

 

Ahahah riiiiiight. 

 

So this president is using his power for the good of this nation (and not other nations) and all of a sudden - outrage. 

 

Spare me the hyperbole. 

 

There is zero doubt the Supreme Court will uphold this declaration. It’s probably one of the most justifiable issues to date. Doesn’t matter that Democrats want and need migrants to bolster their base. 

 

“Trump using executive power to secure the nations borders and the sovereignty of our rebublic is “brazen” and “flaunting of power”? “

 

And without an ounce of introspection a few lines for their in the same post:

 

“Spare me the hyperbole.“

 

Doh!

[keemapoot]

1 hour ago, johnnybangkok said:

No sensible person opposes border security or clamping down on illegal immigration. They just oppose the ineffectiveness of this wall and the complete waste of money it will be. There are far better ways to spend this vast amount of money to get much better results.

Sure. Absolutely right and sensible. However, the thing to remember is that this entire idea of a "wall" campaign came about as an accidental experiment at a Trump rally early in his campaign. There have been lots of articles written on this. When he tried out the line "I'm gonna build a wall," on the base audience, they went nuts. They loved it. Trump then doubled down on this, and it became his central rallying cry to victory with this particular demographic and section of the populace - his infamous base. Ann Coulter summed it up perfectly recently, but then, she always knew who those people were and how easy they would be to manipulate based on simplistic, jingoistic,  isolationist, and racist-flirting themes.

 

Normal Republicans have gone along with Trump, in spite of most of them despising him also, because he advances the GOP agenda until they can get a real Republican back in office, and so that is where we are. The country is being held hostage by this 33-37% of the country, with the evil Joker Sean Hannity whispering orders how best to manipulate these people into Trump's ear.

 

And so, we will go on to the Supreme Court and see how this gets resolved.

[johnnybangkok]

1 hour ago, ricklev said:

Well reasoned, but why bother when facts and reason don't matter?

It does seem like that sometimes when the usual Trumpers come on to this forum and just ignore facts and reasoned argument but I've also witnessed a few others who have tempered their 'pro-Trump and to hell with the facts' stance when faced with overwhelming evidence to contradict their points. You just have to 'out fact' them where it matters.

So no it isn't just a complete waste of time.

It is however still mostly a waste of time. 

[johnnybangkok]

11 minutes ago, keemapoot said:

Sure. Absolutely right and sensible. However, the thing to remember is that this entire idea of a "wall" campaign came about as an accidental experiment at a Trump rally early in his campaign. There have been lots of articles written on this. When he tried out the line "I'm gonna build a wall," on the base audience, they went nuts. They loved it. Trump then doubled down on this, and it became his central rallying cry to victory with this particular demographic and section of the populace - his infamous base. Ann Coulter summed it up perfectly recently, but then, she always knew who those people were and how easy they would be to manipulate based on simplistic, jingoistic,  isolationist, and racist-flirting themes.

 

Normal Republicans have gone along with Trump, in spite of most of them despising him also, because he advances the GOP agenda until they can get a real Republican back in office, and so that is where we are. The country is being held hostage by this 33-37% of the country, with the evil Joker Sean Hannity whispering orders how best to manipulate these people into Trump's ear.

 

And so, we will go on to the Supreme Court and see how this gets resolved.

Yeah I'm aware.

It's the oldest trick in the book; blame the immigrants for all your problems and not the billionaires and corporations that put you out of a job in the first place, stagnated your wages for decades and even now prevent you from earning a livable wage.

It's a non-problem created to keep everyone's eyes away from where the real action is going on in the shape of massive tax cuts for the rich and corporations and the forthcoming legal issues that the most divisive president in recent US history and his family will soon be facing.

Edited February 18, 2019 by johnnybangkok

[zydeco]

As this topic illustrates, Trump is getting exactly what he wants with this issue. And what he wants is not that the wall be built but that lawsuits, political challenges, and rhetoric over the wall be increased. The one and only chance he has for being re-elected is continuing conflict over this damn wall, which is the least effective of just about all immigration enforcement policies. He used it as a campaign ploy. He used it during the first two years of his presidency as a deflection every time something else went off the rails somewhere else. And he's gearing up to reuse it in 2020. 

[keemapoot]

Just now, johnnybangkok said:

Yeah I'm aware.

It's the oldest trick in the book; blame the immigrants for all your problems and not the billionaires and corporations that put you out of a job in the first place, stagnated your wages for decades and even now prevent you from earning a livable wage.

It's a non-problem created to keep everyone's away from where the real action is going on in the shape of massive tax cuts for the rich and corporations and the forthcoming legal issues that the most divisive president in recent US history and his family will soon be facing.

I'm far from a corporate basher, but I like others couldn't help but be astounded at the headlines yesterday: Jeff Bezos and Amazon $11 billion in profits in 2018 and paid zero tax. Oh, wait, Bezos owns the Washington Post, Trump's biggest nemisis. haha.

 

But yeah, easy to keep the easily manipulated poorly educated entertained and diverted with this idea of a magical Disney wall the length and breadth of America. Stunning.

[Basil B]

1 hour ago, Berkshire said:

It is not that difficult to build a small drone with payload capacity of over 1Kg with GPS automation that could fly for miles if one has the know how.

[johnnybangkok]

3 minutes ago, zydeco said:

As this topic illustrates, Trump is getting exactly what he wants with this issue. And what he wants is not that the wall be built but that lawsuits, political challenges, and rhetoric over the wall be increased. The one and only chance he has for being re-elected is continuing conflict over this damn wall, which is the least effective of just about all immigration enforcement policies. He used it as a campaign ploy. He used it during the first two years of his presidency as a deflection every time something else went off the rails somewhere else. And he's gearing up to reuse it in 2020. 

Good point. He has readily admitted that it faces a mountain of legal challenges....right up to when it gets puts in from of the Supreme Court (his Supreme Court) - just in time for the 2020 election. 

[candide]

5 hours ago, Thainesss said:

 

Weird. Libs didn’t have a single care for the executive overreach by previous presidents, but now all of a sudden it’s about the constitution (lol libs & the constitution) and separation of powers. 

 

Blatant hypocrisy. 

 

5 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

 

never Mind. I have said it already before and will simply get the same tired arguments. But this statement is spot on

Lol! Yes, you got the same arguments based on facts but it does not prevent you from trying again.

 

"Trump's declaration differs from many of those earlier emergencies. About three-quarters of the time, presidents use their emergency power to impose economic sanctions or limit trade with foreign parties. Then-President Jimmy Carter, for example, declared an emergency to limit business dealings with Iran. George H.W. Bush did the same with Iraq. And Barack Obama used emergency powers to limit transactions with Libya.

....

Other declarations have followed terrorist attacks or natural disasters. George W. Bush declared an emergency after the Sept. 11 attacks. And Obama used one to respond to the swine flu epidemic in 2009."

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/15/695203852/many-presidents-have-declared-emergencies-but-not-like-trump-has

You can check yourself the full list here:

https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/emergency-powers

 

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by candide

[zydeco]

4 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Good point. He has readily admitted that it faces a mountain of legal challenges....right up to when it gets puts in from of the Supreme Court (his Supreme Court) - just in time for the 2020 election. 

He's a con artist. He's fooled his supporters, most of whom continue to believe him. And he's fooled his opponents, who actually think he has an ideological belief in something aside from his own self interest and ego.

[johnnybangkok]

10 minutes ago, keemapoot said:

I'm far from a corporate basher, but I like others couldn't help but be astounded at the headlines yesterday: Jeff Bezos and Amazon $11 billion in profits in 2018 and paid zero tax. Oh, wait, Bezos owns the Washington Post, Trump's biggest nemisis. haha.

 

But yeah, easy to keep the easily manipulated poorly educated entertained and diverted with this idea of a magical Disney wall the length and breadth of America. Stunning.

I'm not a corporate basher either. I have a pretty large and successful business that relies on these corporations as clients, so I'm well aware of how intricately linked we all are. However when I see blatant misrepresentation of the facts to appease a mostly 'sound bite' addicted audience it does rile me up.

If Republicans were honest they would just come out and admit they don't give a damn about the working man. But then again there's just not enough millionaires and billionaires in America right now to win the vote, hence the often played xenophobia card.    

Edited February 18, 2019 by johnnybangkok

[MyFriend You]

7 hours ago, Tug said:

Well most Californians despise Donald they know a con man when they see one we are still a democracy Donald it’s not your or Putin’s money you don’t have permission so hands off us taxpayers say no!

say no??  To what??  -  nothing you have any control over, the ball is not in our court.  Ho Hum, two more years to wait for four more years of Trump Presidency!!   Ka Ching!!

Edited February 18, 2019 by TunnelRat69

[MyFriend You]

58 minutes ago, Basil B said:

It is not that difficult to build a small drone with payload capacity of over 1Kg with GPS automation that could fly for miles if one has the know how.

We have counter measures you wouldn't believe...........

[Becker]

34 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

We have counter measures you wouldn't believe...........

We?

[Thainesss]

2 hours ago, attrayant said:

That's truly scary.  You don't care how many people have to die for you to get your 5% of a border wall.

 

Have to die?

 

Ok go on. This should be good. 

[johnnybangkok]

17 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

 

Have to die?

 

Ok go on. This should be good. 

I posted a lengthy refute to your 'facts' earlier which I see you haven't responded to (66) . Are you agreeing with what I am saying or are you only interested in picking the low hanging fruit?

[VincentRJ]

4 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

No sensible person opposes border security or clamping down on illegal immigration. They just oppose the ineffectiveness of this wall and the complete waste of money it will be. There are far better ways to spend this vast amount of money to get much better results. Trump and his people must know this and since he has had 2 years when Republicans controlled both houses and still didn't get it passed, the only conclusion must be this is a political stunt to re-animate his illiberal base who love nothing more than to blame immigrants for all their problems. 

That's a good point, but just what are the more effective ways to achieve the result of fewer illegal aliens getting in the USA?

 

I understand well that just a wall by itself, with no continuous monitoring and no personnel at various stations along the wall, would not be effective. However, I assume if several billion dollars are spent building a wall, it will have access by roads and numerous monitoring station in order to make it effective.

 

Sounds to me a bit like the Great Wall of China, although not quite as long. Wasn't that effective? ????

 

Another point, which I don't think has been raised yet, is that Trump's stated agenda is to 'make America great again'. You might think that's a load of nonsense and that he'll never achieve that, but at least building a wall is consistent with that policy. If America does become great again, there will be many more people screaming to get in.

[stevenl]

4 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

That's a good point, but just what are the more effective ways to achieve the result of fewer illegal aliens getting in the USA?

 

I understand well that just a wall by itself, with no continuous monitoring and no personnel at various stations along the wall, would not be effective. However, I assume if several billion dollars are spent building a wall, it will have access by roads and numerous monitoring station in order to make it effective.

 

Sounds to me a bit like the Great Wall of China, although not quite as long. Wasn't that effective? ????

 

Another point, which I don't think has been raised yet, is that Trump's stated agenda is to 'make America great again'. You might think that's a load of nonsense and that he'll never achieve that, but at least building a wall is consistent with that policy. If America does become great again, there will be many more people screaming to get in.

If you would have quoted the post in full, you would have seen there are many reasons not to build the wall.

[Thainesss]

5 minutes ago, stevenl said:

If you would have quoted the post in full, you would have seen there are many reasons not to build the wall.

 

You mean that 400,000 per year enter/get caught and that more people (deflection) overstay visas (completely separate issue) than illegally cross the border? That’s still four hundred thousand people and hundreds of billions in tax payer dollars. Border security is minuscule in comparison. 

 

The entire post was full of deflection and not a single solution. 

 

Not to mention the cute little ad-hom at the end about how conservatives blame all their problems on immigrants, which is a garbage take and nothing more than liberal race-baiting. 

 

 

1 hour ago, johnnybangkok said:

I posted a lengthy refute to your 'facts' earlier which I see you haven't responded to (66) . Are you agreeing with what I am saying or are you only interested in picking the low hanging fruit?

 

Well aren’t you thirsty. You didn’t refute anything. 400,000 bodies per year and your Democrats wanted to reduce ICE detention beds.

 

Spare me.