Refused 6 Mthvisa Which Way Now ?

[alan1968]

Hi all, loved this site for years but now need to use it,

applied for a 6 month visa for girlfriend(gf) have a child together (3 yers old)who is already registered as british ,

the plan was for her to come here for 2 months and see what she thinks can she live here,

and then apply for a settlement visa.

the visa was refused on the grounds the officer did not think she would return, that she would work and why did we not get married before and apply for a settlement visa.

photos postcards and the odd telephone statement were produced but they said not enough, i call my gf every 2 days but i use telesavers 08444 397 397 from the uk to a thai mobile is 3p a min whereas BT is 60p a min the bill shows the 0844 number but does not show her number.

she told me that the officer did not ask ?'s merely stated what he thought and did not look over anyof the documents.

i belive there is no appeal for this visa but there is a complaint procedure, should i use this to clarify some points ?

appply again with a more detailed letter and add more evidence(if can find) already too much.

or decide to apply for a settlement visa(how does this work ?)

do you get married in your province? then apply? do they marry you in the embassy has some people have said? or do you apply and get married in the uk?

also i travel to thailand 4 times a year for thepast 5 years in thailand about 4 + months in thailand and the officer said he does'nt think a relationship exists,

the catch i have a 1 bedroom flat in london valued at 200K with a mortgage of 40K and savings of 34K and earn 30K a year is this enough.

My gf has a house in thailand a car and income ,

confused

thanks

alan

[the scouser]

Alan,

It is not for the embassy to dictate whether you should marry or not and, on current form, if you were to apply for a settlement visa, they'd refuse it on the basis that a one-bedroomed flat is insufficent for two adults and a child.

If it is truly a visit visa you wish, apply again, addressing the reasons for refusal. Your g/f has a car, house and income in Thailand? Well this should be sufficient to demonstrate that she will return to Thailand at the end of her stay. Remember that your g/f only need attain the standard of the balance of probabilities, and, on the basis of what you've written here, this is another example of the embassy trying to force people to manifest their case to beyond reasonable doubt.

Scouse.

[Mahout Angrit]

Which way to go? Did you tell the embassy

the plan was for her to come here for 2 months and see what she thinks can she live here, and then apply for a settlement visa.

.....if so this is probably why they thought she may not return to Thailand.

Yes you are right you cannot appeal and as has been pointed out, your accomodation in UK probably wouldn't be considered large enough for 3 people(everything else you mentioned is plenty) if you applied for a settlement visa so work on the proof that your wife will return to Thailand ( does the child go to nursery school etc)and apply again. Try to also work on the fact that the relationship exists with photos of you all together, with her folks, at various places of recreation etc.

If you did want to get married, you could either marry in Thailand (at the amphur not the embassy) and apply for a settlement visa or apply for a Fiancee visa then go to UK and get married within 6 months of arrival in UK.

See Guidance for Settlement

Edited March 2, 2007 by Mahout Angrit

[Mahout Angrit]

Alan

To correct a statement I made above, You can actually appeal as I wasn't thinking and it was an application to visit family as opposed to a tourist visit. However the appeal process is likely to take 6 months or more so you would be better to make a fresh application.

You could make an appeal and still make a second application and if it was successful you could withdraw the appeal.

[the scouser]

Alan

To correct a statement I made above, You can actually appeal as I wasn't thinking and it was an application to visit family as opposed to a tourist visit. However the appeal process is likely to take 6 months or more so you would be better to make a fresh application.

You could make an appeal and still make a second application and if it was successful you could withdraw the appeal.

You were right first time: Alan's girlfriend is not defined as a family member. If, however, the child were already in the UK, and she said she wished to visit her child, then that would constitute a family visit.

Scouse.

[alan1968]

thanks guys for your help a few notes,

the truth is we wanted her to come here for a couple of months and see if she could live here if so then i would sell my flat and buy a house and then do the settlement visa , \i don't want to be radical sell my flat buy the house and her not liking it at all .

we told them she wanted a holiday in uk to see where i'm from and no intention of staying in the uk.

you can't appeal but you can complain, is this worth doing to get my side of the story on record,

we will apply again in a few months with a more detailed sponsor letter adn more pics and docs.

people on the day told my gf that they were marring in the embassy, what i think is that they were registering a civil relationship, correct me if wrong.

can i go to the amphur in her province and get married and use the certificate when i next apply will this help the application,

thanks again all

\

alan

[StickKettleOn]

This winds the hel_l out of me.

Let me get this straight…. You are a British citizen born and raised, with a British child of which the Mother is Thai…. And she is not permitted to stay with her child in the UK?

Knowing little about this subject, I have always assumed that having child with a Thai lady would guarantee a visa for her. I am surprised and ashamed that you have been turned down.

It’s your sodding country mate! The Mother of your child deserves automatic entry if you ask me!

It really pisses me off. The state of my beloved country currently admits all and sodding sundry from various countries without a second thought…. Yet a genuine case of a British citizen wishing to bring the Mother of his child to our lovely isle, and he is declined?

Really, really pisses me off.

I apologise for the rant and hope I do not come across as a random nutter…. It just bothers me.

Erm… sorry, nothing useful to contribute other than this off the cuff rant.

Good luck mate.

Sincerely, SKO.

[GU22]

people on the day told my gf that they were marring in the embassy, what i think is that they were registering a civil relationship, correct me if wrong.

AFAIK you can't do either at the British embassy. I suspect that they were either having their Affirmation of Freedom to Marry notarised or were applying for a marriage visa.

can i go to the amphur in her province and get married

Yes, you can but you will need to have an Affirmation of Freedom to Marry. See Guidance for British Nationals Wishing to Marry in Thailand . Please note this is a requirement of Thai law and applies to all foreigners wishing to marry in Thailand. Remember too that a Thai marriage is legal in the UK too, so if you do this you will be married in the eyes of both Thai and UK law.

use the certificate when i next apply will this help the application,

I doubt it will help a visit visa application. The problem seems to be that the ECO believes that she does not intend to leave the UK but instead will remain, either with you or alone. Marrying her will not alter this view.

However, many people in your position have obtained visit visas for their wives/fiances so that they can see what the UK is like before committing to moving here. From what you have said it seems to me that you did not provide enough evidence to convince the ECO that the relationship is genuine. Do so, and also write a covering letter to explain the reason for her wanting to only visit, not settle. Also, outline your plans if she decides the UK is not for her, e.g. would you move to Thailand? After all, you have a child with this woman, it is only natural to wonder why you wouldn't want to live together if she decided she didn't like the UK.

If the ECO believes that the relationship is genuine then s/he will also believe the reason for the visit is genuine and so be unlikely to refuse.

If the worst does happen and she is refused again, then she can always apply for settlement.

It is also important to remember that a 1 bedroom flat could not only be considered inadequate for a settlement visa, but also for a visit visa. Although if the child is an infant then you should be ok.

[atlastaname]

I'm sure i'll get told off for saying it , but in relation to the OP , isn't this yet another example of people being expected/forced (in this case suggested) to get married in order that the Thai partner , who only wanted to visit, can come to the UK. I don't want to make waves here , but as i was told a while ago that this scenario is a figment of my imagination , i thought this post illustrated my point rather well.

[GU22]

Considering the OP's circumstances, asking why they don't get married is a logical question.

Sorry, Atlas, but you are clutching at straws here.

[atlastaname]

Rubbish!! As Scouse said , it is not for the Embassy to dictate. And then to draw inferences from the answer. If they want to marry fine, but why the pressure to do so? Its up to them. Yes of course they can ask the question, thats not my point. My point is that they drew negative inferences from the fact that they CHOOSE not to marry. Why should theyif they don't want to?

[alan1968]

Thanks guys for al the advice, i decided to cpomplain about the officer and his decesion, waiting for reply,

what this will bring who knows will it help or hnder futre applications i'm not sure,

but from what my gf told me this officer was rude , dictatoral and obnoxios and did'nt extend the courtesy and respect that they expect us to do(see website)

all said i would compain in the uk why should'nt complain here, they are civil servents doing a job , and with this guy very badly at that.

let you all know the outcome of the complaint,

thanks

[GU22]

Rubbish!! As Scouse said , it is not for the Embassy to dictate. And then to draw inferences from the answer. If they want to marry fine, but why the pressure to do so? Its up to them. Yes of course they can ask the question, thats not my point. My point is that they drew negative inferences from the fact that they CHOOSE not to marry. Why should theyif they don't want to?

Of course no one at the embassy, the IND, the Home office nor any branch of the government can demand that a couple marry.

However, here we have a Thai resident applying to travel to the UK in order to visit the British father of her British son. She still has a relationship with the father as he is sponsoring the visit.

It is perfectly reasonable for the ECO to suspect that once in the UK she may be tempted to remain with her son and his father and so have doubts about issuing the visa.

It is perfectly reasonable for the ECO to question the applicant in order to allay those doubts and so be able to issue the visa.

It is perfectly reasonable for one of those questions to be why they haven't married yet.

It is perfectly reasonable for another question to be why she does not wish to settle in the UK at this time.

IMHO, if the original application had dealt with these two issues then it is probable that her visa would have been issued without an interview. If she had been able to answer them at the interview then she would have probably been issued with the visa.

Remember, they could have refused without an interview. The fact that they didn't but chose to interview her instead shows, IMHO, that, although they had doubts, they were inclined to grant; provided those doubts were answered at the interview.

Of course, there is no excuse for rudeness, and if the ECO was indeed rude then a complaint should, IMHO must, be made.

[the gent]

Alternatively, the ECO in raising the refusal rate, a criterion in assessing performance, knew that his decision could not be challenged by an independent adjudicator and therefore in constructing the formula of refusal he was perhaps less objective in interpreting the so - called evidence supporting it.

However, in cases which do not attract the right of appeal the applicant may nevertheless pursue redress by complaining to the appointed scrutineer who allegedly ensures that an appropriate standard of decision making is maintained without independent arbitration. Given that the appointee has a modest staff with which to examine the 1 million plus applications submitted annually in this category one must question their worth particularly when 70% of appealable cases which are considered by the Courts are upheld in favour of the applicant.

In these circumstances the OP can only continue to complain but please do not entertain any illusions that the ECO and the system is interested in anything beyond what they can get away with, a point GU22 would do well to ponder.

[atlastaname]

An interesting post by the gent which seems to be saying what most of us accept happens in the real world.

However i have one question for him... how do you know RAISING the refusal rate is a criteria in assessing performance? You imply i think that in refusing more applications the ECO will be increasing the positivity of his assessment. Is this just opinion (i suspect you may well be right) or is it based on any facts you know of ?

[srisatch]

Hi all, loved this site for years but now need to use it,

Alan1968...this is nothing to do with you personally. I am sorry you did not get the visa you wanted..but what follows may have some bearing!!

1. I am not a great fan of British Embassies and their staff, worldwide. But that is mostly because I am not a great fan of the procedures by which Civil Servants are chosen in the UK

2. All my dealings with the staff at the UK Embassy in BKK have been amicable. I dare to suggest that if your gf found them 'hostile' she has a lot to learn about the difference between UK and Thai manners. I find many Thai 'bureaucrats' unbelievably 'rude'..they are not, of course...they are simply using the appropriate forms of Thai language to deal with the situation Perhaps your g/f has encountered a British version of that

3.There are very few reasons why, if the papers are in order, an officer would refuse a visa

4. Its interesting that the forum pages provide space for posters ranting against UK immigration policies while they also provide space for posters complaining they cannot achieve immigration for gfs...is it not!

[GU22]

An interesting post by the gent which seems to be saying what most of us accept happens in the real world.

Sorry, it is what some believe happens, but the large percentage of visas that are issued each year without the applicant ever seeing an ECO shows that belief to be misguided.

However i have one question for him... how do you know RAISING the refusal rate is a criteria in assessing performance?

I don't believe that it is, this is more fantasy from this individual. However, I would also like to see him justify this assertion. He could start by explaining why, if ECOs are judged by how many they can refuse, over 90% of applications are successful.

This is merely another ridiculous assertion by this person. I am sure that he will ignore all requests to justify his claim, as he has done so many times in the past.

[the gent]

Hey Les,

I can see those breasts heaving already

[gregchambers]

In my experience, ECO's only fear bad feedback from overstayer's etc (and yes UK airports now have officers back checking passports on exit) and if you have already done a visa for a girl and want a second one, feed them some balm such as visited the UK and returned without causing any problems...

Surely a baby registered as British is fantasic proof of relationship and therefore no way they could refuse financee visa - ie no reason to lie about wanting a visitors visa for the girl to check out the UK and see if she could adapt.

On the other hand, another thread demonstrated that Aussie embassy has access to Thai passport records and I suspect the new simplified tourist visa process at the Brit embassy does to. Would this extend to police records of girls working in bars (very likely to make it easy for good Thai gals to get visas), and maybe the poster's girl was caught uo in this? Just a thought!!!

[Chris.B]

if you were to apply for a settlement visa, they'd refuse it on the basis that a one-bedroomed flat is insufficent for two adults and a child.

Disagree with that, as I understand it a living room is counted as a room so a one bedroom flat has 2 rooms which is sufficient for 2 adults and 1 child.

Check this link for more information.

[the scouser]

My point was that, judging by two recent threads, the embassy has no regard for the relevant legislation.

Scouse.

[atlastaname]

My point was that, judging by two recent threads, the embassy has no regard for the relevant legislation.

Scouse.

Surely if they are breaching relevant legislation then a quick call to the ECM pointing that out would get it immediately corrected ? Or are you saying they can breach legislation with impunity backed the the ECM who is there to stop just such things happening?

[GU22]

The Independent Monitor and the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal for starters!

Scouse,rather than saying "the embassy has no regard for the relevant legislation." would it not be more fair to say that it appears that a particular ECO has no regard for the relevant legislation?

[the scouser]

The two recent threads relating to people who were refused on accommodation grounds display a marked mis-application by the ECO (although one must assume the ECM to be complicit) of the balance of probabilities, and indicates, in these two cases, that they were seeking to establish that the requirement was met to the standard of beyond reasonable doubt.

Where a dispute of such a nature arises, it is possible that the embassy visa section might maintain that their interpretation is correct, and then only a court is going to settle the matter.

Scouse.