Replace iMac with Windows-based Desktop

[ThaiBunny]

2 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

It's the illusion of high end, the OS, and the dictatorial Apple ecosystem that keeps people in the Apple bubble. They are fraid of getting equal or better quality and a much greater diversity of choice while paying half as much. 

You can see the reason I stick to my iPhone exemplified in another story running on ThaiVisa - the young woman receiving sexual advances because of an App someone else installed on her (presumably) Android phone.  That said, I've never owned a Mac computer (I once owned an Apple IIc) as I regard them as something only useful to graphic artists

[Jeffrey346]

17 hours ago, JamJar said:

 

My current PC was bought here in Thailand in February of 2007. That makes it twelve years old, as compared to your claimed ten.

I'm creating this post with it. Cost me 21,000 baht when the exchange rate was around 70 to the £.

 

I've upgraded the CPU at a cost of £6. Upgraded the RAM to 4GB for £6 and fitted a 120 GB Crucial BX300 SSD, costing £21.

 

So a total of £333(less than £28 per annum thus far). How much did your Mac cost? Purchase price and cost of upgrades?

 

Seems your statement has proved rather empty. 

Bought my MAC in the US. Can't remember exactly, but think it was $799 back then. It has 8G RAM. SSD upgrade that cost about $100. So it looks like I'm way ahead as your WIN PC that probably can't take 8GB of RAM and I'm Blue Screen free. I'm sure your not...

[atyclb]

40 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

Funny because if the hate shown by the above 2 posters was in any way indicitive of the truth, the company would be bankrupt. But that’s not the case. Apple is one of the most valuable companies in the world. 

 

 

 

 

i have owned several macbooks and still have some and use a macbook pro every day. a 2012 macbook pro that is very serviceable and upgradeable. the new onese are poorly upgradeable and serviceable as major components are often soldered in thus forcing you to buy the higher spec from apple.  other companies make equally as thin and light laptops that are highly repairable and upgradeable and make spare parts readily available. apple purposely goes to extremes to stop spare parts from being available so owners can have the option of replacing a defective mainboard component rather than having to buy a new very expensive board. apple switched to the same cpu used in pc's, intel, therefore technically speaking an apple computer is just a pc.

 

they have nice designs albeit can be poorly functional (thermal throttling due to poor cooling)   apple is a hugely successful company because  yes there is some innovation and design ability and the vast majority of owners are numb to the negatives as luis rossman routinely points out in his videos.

 

   

[atyclb]

8 minutes ago, Jeffrey346 said:

18 hours ago, JamJar said:

 

My current PC was bought here in Thailand in February of 2007. That makes it twelve years old, as compared to your claimed ten.

I'm creating this post with it. Cost me 21,000 baht when the exchange rate was around 70 to the £.

 

I've upgraded the CPU at a cost of £6. Upgraded the RAM to 4GB for £6 and fitted a 120 GB Crucial BX300 SSD, costing £21.

 

So a total of £333(less than £28 per annum thus far). How much did your Mac cost? Purchase price and cost of upgrades?

 

Seems your statement has proved rather empty. 

Bought my MAC in the US. Can't remember exactly, but think it was $799 back then. It has 8G RAM. SSD upgrade that cost about $100. So it looks like I'm way ahead as your WIN PC that probably can't take 8GB of RAM and I'm Blue Screen free. I'm sure your not...

 

under the hood the internal components are essentially the same, mac and pc. if the pc has the same chipset as the mac, it should be able to accept the same amount of ram.

[bkkcanuck8]

32 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

 

i have owned several macbooks and still have some and use a macbook pro every day. a 2012 macbook pro that is very serviceable and upgradeable. the new onese are poorly upgradeable and serviceable as major components are often soldered in thus forcing you to buy the higher spec from apple.  other companies make equally as thin and light laptops that are highly repairable and upgradeable and make spare parts readily available. apple purposely goes to extremes to stop spare parts from being available so owners can have the option of replacing a defective mainboard component rather than having to buy a new very expensive board. apple switched to the same cpu used in pc's, intel, therefore technically speaking an apple computer is just a pc.

 

they have nice designs albeit can be poorly functional (thermal throttling due to poor cooling)   apple is a hugely successful company because  yes there is some innovation and design ability and the vast majority of owners are numb to the negatives as luis rossman routinely points out in his videos.

 

   

There are reasons for reducing the replaceable components in the computers.  Yes, if something breaks then it costs more to service the computer (not always is the actual cost charged - i.e. battery replacement on a MacBook 12" costs $199 which is higher because of the molded battery -- but literally the bottom half of the computer and case gets replaced when doing it).  The other side of the equation is that it improves overall reliability of the main motherboard component...  reducing the need to service by a considerable amount (probably on the order of one third).  This is the reason why more manufacturers are going that way (there are not that many quality computer makers making easily upgradeable laptops anymore). 

 

Luis Rossman himself is also bias since he makes a living on servicing and routinely dissing Apple (not that some of it is not warranted). 

 

On a side note, my MacBook 12" 2015 had to have the battery serviced... it cost me 7,500.  Obviously during that servicing something went horribly wrong as they had a second service invoice (totally zero) for other fixes.  In the end my MacBook 12" came back with a new motherboard as well.... with twice the SSD and a higher end processor to boot (a free upgrade). 

 

One of the complaints Luis Rossman has about Apple is they will not partially service a computer, it will require fixing the entire computer if things are wrong.  It is not unusual (for other companies either) and the reasons are simple that the company gives a warranty on the entire computer (not just the fixes) after the repairs for a period of time. 

[bkkcanuck8]

37 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

under the hood the internal components are essentially the same, mac and pc. if the pc has the same chipset as the mac, it should be able to accept the same amount of ram.

Actually, there can be substantial differences in quality (you are just looking at the "big" components).  The PCB can vary widely in the quality.   Many quality motherboard manufacturers will include in specifications they use 'Japanese' capacitors... the reason for that is simple that there are cheaper Chinese capacitors (based on partial corporate espionage)... which resulted in those cheaper capacitors having a limited life (i.e. shorter lifespan that sooner or later would cause it to die).  It is interesting to note that many dissed the cost of the iMac Pro as hilariously overpriced, but then some of these PC sites at least went to the point of costing the actual components in the low end iMac Pro (base configuration)... and low and behold ... it the tally was actually at or above the retail price for the equivalent components in a DIY build.   Now you might quibble about not being able to chose lower priced components, but then Apple is just one manufacturer and the portfolio is restricted to a few models that cover as large a subset of customers for economic reasons.   You might not need Xeons or ECC memory, but then the iMac Pro is a workstation build -- not a PC build.  The monitor component in many iMacs tend to be focused on those that need high end monitors, but many people would chose to cheap out on a cheaper monitor.   I personally never purchase all-in-one computers - so I am not an iMac customer (I have an extreme aversion to the idea).... but for many it is the computer of choice.

[Thainesss]

10 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

but for many it is the computer of choice.

 

Nobody in this thread wants to hear it. To them, Apple is overpriced garbage (even though they are one of the richest companies, globally) and their $400 PC is way better, because reasons. 

[atyclb]

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

2 hours ago, atyclb said:

 

i have owned several macbooks and still have some and use a macbook pro every day. a 2012 macbook pro that is very serviceable and upgradeable. the new onese are poorly upgradeable and serviceable as major components are often soldered in thus forcing you to buy the higher spec from apple.  other companies make equally as thin and light laptops that are highly repairable and upgradeable and make spare parts readily available. apple purposely goes to extremes to stop spare parts from being available so owners can have the option of replacing a defective mainboard component rather than having to buy a new very expensive board. apple switched to the same cpu used in pc's, intel, therefore technically speaking an apple computer is just a pc.

 

they have nice designs albeit can be poorly functional (thermal throttling due to poor cooling)   apple is a hugely successful company because  yes there is some innovation and design ability and the vast majority of owners are numb to the negatives as luis rossman routinely points out in his videos.

 

   

There are reasons for reducing the replaceable components in the computers.  Yes, if something breaks then it costs more to service the computer (not always is the actual cost charged - i.e. battery replacement on a MacBook 12" costs $199 which is higher because of the molded battery -- but literally the bottom half of the computer and case gets replaced when doing it).  The other side of the equation is that it improves overall reliability of the main motherboard component...  reducing the need to service by a considerable amount (probably on the order of one third).  This is the reason why more manufacturers are going that way (there are not that many quality computer makers making easily upgradeable laptops anymore). 

 

Luis Rossman himself is also bias since he makes a living on servicing and routinely dissing Apple (not that some of it is not warranted). 

 

On a side note, my MacBook 12" 2015 had to have the battery serviced... it cost me 7,500.  Obviously during that servicing something went horribly wrong as they had a second service invoice (totally zero) for other fixes.  In the end my MacBook 12" came back with a new motherboard as well.... with twice the SSD and a higher end processor to boot (a free upgrade). 

 

One of the complaints Luis Rossman has about Apple is they will not partially service a computer, it will require fixing the entire computer if things are wrong.  It is not unusual (for other companies either) and the reasons are simple that the company gives a warranty on the entire computer (not just the fixes) after the repairs for a period of time. 

 

my 2012 macbook pro i7 had a significant issue with power. apple told me i need a new logic board and that costs hundreds of dollars. a component level mac repair shop in bangkok replaced the defective chip for 2,800 baht and works like new again.

 

sounds after they screwed up something on your 12" macbook (nice laptop) but did not stock of the same spec assembly so they gave you the in stock higher spec assembly.

[atyclb]

2 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

3 hours ago, atyclb said:

 

under the hood the internal components are essentially the same, mac and pc. if the pc has the same chipset as the mac, it should be able to accept the same amount of ram.

Actually, there can be substantial differences in quality (you are just looking at the "big" components).  The PCB can vary widely in the quality.   Many quality motherboard manufacturers will include in specifications they use 'Japanese' capacitors... the reason for that is simple that there are cheaper Chinese capacitors (based on partial corporate espionage)... which resulted in those cheaper capacitors having a limited life (i.e. shorter lifespan that sooner or later would cause it to die).  It is interesting to note that many dissed the cost of the iMac Pro as hilariously overpriced, but then some of these PC sites at least went to the point of costing the actual components in the low end iMac Pro (base configuration)... and low and behold ... it the tally was actually at or above the retail price for the equivalent components in a DIY build.   Now you might quibble about not being able to chose lower priced components, but then Apple is just one manufacturer and the portfolio is restricted to a few models that cover as large a subset of customers for economic reasons.   You might not need Xeons or ECC memory, but then the iMac Pro is a workstation build -- not a PC build.  The monitor component in many iMacs tend to be focused on those that need high end monitors, but many people would chose to cheap out on a cheaper monitor.   I personally never purchase all-in-one computers - so I am not an iMac customer (I have an extreme aversion to the idea).... but for many it is the computer of choice.

 

over the years i have built many pc's, including workstations and hackintoshes and am very familiar with so called workstation boards and ecc ram. my latest hackintosh is based on an msi x99 board (japan caps) and quality components, xeon 12 core and ddr4 ram. the mb spec makes it clear they use quality components. when was the last time apple described the caps they use? usually the internal stuff is disclosed by third party teardowns of macs. apple does not say how much ram their ipads have and the only way people find out is by teardowns. there is no good reason apple uses a proprietary m.2 drive either.

 

i would hardly call what imac pro owners do "mission critical" so ecc memory or not is of little concern.  It does have a very nice 5k screen. 

 

 

https://www.techspot.com/article/845-ddr3-ram-vs-ecc-memory/#commentsOffset

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by atyclb

[bkkcanuck8]

21 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

my 2012 macbook pro i7 had a significant issue with power. apple told me i need a new logic board and that costs hundreds of dollars. a component level mac repair shop in bangkok replaced the defective chip for 2,800 baht and works like new again.

 

sounds after they screwed up something on your 12" macbook (nice laptop) but did not stock of the same spec assembly so they gave you the in stock higher spec assembly.

And that is what Apple (and most other manufacturers) will not do... is desolder component chips from the motherboard and replace it...  that level of repair went out 30+ years ago in the west.  It is a patchwork fix -- that may fix the problem -- but it can also (in too high a percentage of cases) fail in short order.  In the west the cost of labour would make it uneconomical -- and Apple is a western corporation.

[atyclb]

4 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

30 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

my 2012 macbook pro i7 had a significant issue with power. apple told me i need a new logic board and that costs hundreds of dollars. a component level mac repair shop in bangkok replaced the defective chip for 2,800 baht and works like new again.

 

sounds after they screwed up something on your 12" macbook (nice laptop) but did not stock of the same spec assembly so they gave you the in stock higher spec assembly.

And that is what Apple (and most other manufacturers) will not do... is desolder component chips from the motherboard and replace it...  that level of repair went out 30+ years ago in the west.  It is a patchwork fix -- that may fix the problem -- but it can also (in too high a percentage of cases) fail in short order.  In the west the cost of labour would make it uneconomical -- and Apple is a western corporation.

 

luis rossman does tons of component level repairs as do many others in the usa, other developed countries and developing countries.

 

link to failure rate of other components after motherboard component replacement please.

 

genuine apple refurbished/reconditioned products can also have individual component replacement

Edited March 30, 2019 by atyclb

[KittenKong]

4 hours ago, Thainesss said:

Funny because if the hate shown by the above 2 posters was in any way indicitive of the truth, the company would be bankrupt. But that’s not the case. Apple is one of the most valuable companies in the world.

Indeed. But that's because they know how to sell cheap things at a huge markup. Their large bank balance comes from selling at high prices.

[wgdanson]

21 hours ago, JamJar said:

I've upgraded the CPU at a cost of £6. Upgraded the RAM to 4GB for £6 and fitted a 120 GB Crucial BX300 SSD, costing £21.

From where please?

[bkkcanuck8]

4 minutes ago, atyclb said:

The 2% on ECC RAM is true, but if you only limit yourself to the RAM of the same clockspeed - it may not be.  Non-ECC RAM can/will be able to be manufactured at higher clock speeds because of the lack of need for error correction etc. 

 

With normal RAM you may not notice when it fails to have the correct bit value.  According to a University of Toronto study (upscaled to 32GB calculations) a single bit will be wrong about one time every hour.  With normal RAM in most cases things continue to function with no noticeable affects (if it happens in unused memory or things were an error is not noticeable by human eyes easily -- e.g. a single pixel in a video on one frame that may not be what it should be).  The only time it is noticeable is if it happens in executable code and causes the system to have a very noticeable crash (odds for that happening are not high).  With ECC RAM it will be noticed and corrected automatically.  In the space shuttle days where computers were mission critical they use to accomplish this by having 5 computers 'vote'.

 

With a larger market place or DIY computer you are free to pick parts based on priority or need of your task... but Apple is the only computer that can legally make a computer for macOS (it is not sold, it is licensed with your purchase of hardware) -- only has a couple of models - with limited configuration... and as such you will tend not to have the ability to 'cheap out' on parts that are not important to you.

[bkkcanuck8]

10 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

luis rossman does tons of component level repairs as do many others in the usa, other developed countries and developing countries.

 

link to failure rate of other components after motherboard component replacement please.

 

genuine apple refurbished/reconditioned products can also have individual component replacement

Genuine Apple refurbished/reconditioned products will NOT have chips unsoldered and replaced.  In most cases they are machines that were display models, or ones that they were sold and returned with or without questions after a period which cannot be sold as new. 

[atyclb]

5 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

18 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

luis rossman does tons of component level repairs as do many others in the usa, other developed countries and developing countries.

 

link to failure rate of other components after motherboard component replacement please.

 

genuine apple refurbished/reconditioned products can also have individual component replacement

Genuine Apple refurbished/reconditioned products will NOT have chips unsoldered and replaced.  In most cases they are machines that were display models, or ones that they were sold and returned with or without questions after a period which cannot be sold as new. 

 

i am not anti apple but place criticism where it is warranted

 

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by atyclb

[atyclb]

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/d3mqna/internal-documents-show-apple-is-capable-of-implementing-right-to-repair-legislation

[bkkcanuck8]

8 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

i am not anti apple but place criticism where it is warranted

 

 

It is interesting to note that assuming it is correct it says "Apple Authorized" repair not Apple repair.  Apple does not resolder components.  For example if you have a repair on a iMac Pro the repair technician is suppose to take out the motherboard with the CPU in it (even though it is socketed) - send it to Apple, and get a motherboard with the CPU socketed in it and install it.  There is no Quality Control in place for patchwork fixes.

[atyclb]

below is but one example of lenovo parts for one of their laptops. clearly lenovo maintains their own service centers as does apple but they also seem to respect and appreciate their paying customers enough that they make parts available to help them save some money on repairs eith diy or third party.

 

 

 

https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/th/en/products/laptops-and-netbooks/300-series/330-touch-15ikb-type-81dh/81dh/parts?linkTrack=Homepage%3ABody_Search Products&searchType=4&keyWordSearch=330 Touch-15IKB (Type 81DH) Laptop (ideapad) - Type 81DH

[atyclb]

4 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

22 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

i am not anti apple but place criticism where it is warranted

 

 

It is interesting to note that assuming it is correct it says "Apple Authorized" repair not Apple repair.  Apple does not resolder components.  For example if you have a repair on a iMac Pro the repair technician is suppose to take out the motherboard with the CPU in it (even though it is socketed) - send it to Apple, and get a motherboard with the CPU socketed in it and install it.  There is no Quality Control in place for patchwork fixes.

 

 

why can competent component lever repair tech/engineers not have their own quality control? sure seems rossman is competent and concerned about quality as he inspects/checks boards/components and has invested lots in microscopes and component level technology. ??

[atyclb]

 

[kekalot]

2 hours ago, atyclb said:

 

 

 

proof.

 

[JamJar]

9 hours ago, Jeffrey346 said:

Bought my MAC in the US. Can't remember exactly, but think it was $799 back then. It has 8G RAM. SSD upgrade that cost about $100. So it looks like I'm way ahead as your WIN PC that probably can't take 8GB of RAM and I'm Blue Screen free. I'm sure your not...

 

What a very poor post.

 

First of all, I tell the truth about what I paid and even by your figures, I have paid less than half of what you paid.

 

But in actuality, your post is less than truthful

 

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2008/02/26Apple-Introduces-New-MacBook-and-MacBook-Pro-Models/

 

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2009/06/08Apple-Updates-MacBook-Pro-Family-with-New-Models-Innovative-Built-in-Battery-for-Up-to-40-Percent-Longer-Battery-Life/

 

The cheapest MacBook in 2008 cost US$1100. MacBook Pro US$2000.

Cheapest MacBook Pro in 2009 was US$1100

 

But here you claim to have paid US$799.

 

 

Just as importantly the spec of a budget laptop bought twelve years ago against the spec of a high end laptop purchased ten years ago isn't going to be a fair comparison.

 

A more fair comparison would be of my Toshiba laptop of 2009, for which I paid £250. and have spent £80 on the Samsung SSD and 8GB of RAM.

http://www.toshiba.co.uk/discontinued-products/satellite-a300-21h/

 

So your laptop cost at least three times, but likely at least four times more than mine.

 

Especially when, at the time, Apple products cost the same in Pounds in the UK as they did in the USA in US$.

 

So let's compare like with like.

 

The fact is that my budget Windows laptops are still performing faultlessly ten to twelve years later and I spent a fraction of what you have paid.

 

 

[JamJar]

6 hours ago, wgdanson said:

From where please?

CPU was on eBay. Crucial BX300 £21 via Amazon.

BX300 has been discontinued.

I neglected to add in the £10 for the official ACER service centre to swap the CPU over for me.

The original was a dire single core CPU. Now with a dual core CPU and SSD, it can cope with the modern world.

 

[Stocky]

I'm sorry but the responses on this thread, as with many Apple threads, border or trench warfare.

 

For me Apple is a consumer choice I'm not inclined to make, I consider, that whilst their products are well made, and certainly well marketed, they're overpriced (the 'Reassuringly Expensive' approach) and push you into an ecosystem that is deliberately restrictive.

 

But it's my personal choice, based on a keen evaluation of the options. It also helps that I'm not American, I sometimes feel Americans consider it a patriotic duty to buy Apple.

 

Re the OP's question, I've been happy with Dell, I have two Dell laptops for work, they're my 8th & 9th Dell laptop (including company laptops) going back 25 years. I've had but a few issues, all of which have been quickly resolved by Dell. I've also had several Acer desktops, the current two are both long in the tooth, but have served reliably and well. Less favourable experiences with IBM/Lenovo and HP.

 

.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Stocky

[JamJar]

9 hours ago, Jeffrey346 said:

Bought my MAC in the US. Can't remember exactly, but think it was $799 back then. It has 8G RAM. SSD upgrade that cost about $100. So it looks like I'm way ahead as your WIN PC that probably can't take 8GB of RAM and I'm Blue Screen free. I'm sure your not...

 

 

Remember what you write...

 

Quote

I would like to see a 9 year old Win PC that's still running. I have a 10 year old MAC with an upgraded HD that runs better than when it was new. No WIN machine can match my "over priced" MAC.

 

I have described two Windows devices that are as old and older than your MAC and they are working perfectly. Not only that, but they are running the latest Windows operating system, 

Whereas you are limited to OS X 10.11.x "El Capitan"....unless of course your MacBook is not really ten years old at all.... and you are exaggerating.

Understating the price and over estimating it's capability. 

[wgdanson]

13 minutes ago, Stocky said:

I sometimes feel Americans consider it a patriotic duty to buy Apple.

Where is Microsoft based?

[wgdanson]

25 minutes ago, JamJar said:

CPU was on eBay. Crucial BX300 £21 via Amazon.

BX300 has been discontinued.

I neglected to add in the £10 for the official ACER service centre to swap the CPU over for me.

The original was a dire single core CPU. Now with a dual core CPU and SSD, it can cope with the modern world.

 

You cannot UPGRADE your CPU, you buy a new one.

 

And your new one is DUAL core? What year are we talking about?

Edited March 30, 2019 by wgdanson

[kekalot]

10 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Where is Microsoft based?

not relevant as Microsoft doesn't premake or sell computers or laptops, Apple do.

[atyclb]

55 minutes ago, JamJar said:

 

What a very poor post.

 

First of all, I tell the truth about what I paid and even by your figures, I have paid less than half of what you paid.

 

But in actuality, your post is less than truthful

 

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2008/02/26Apple-Introduces-New-MacBook-and-MacBook-Pro-Models/

 

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2009/06/08Apple-Updates-MacBook-Pro-Family-with-New-Models-Innovative-Built-in-Battery-for-Up-to-40-Percent-Longer-Battery-Life/

 

The cheapest MacBook in 2008 cost US$1100. MacBook Pro US$2000.

Cheapest MacBook Pro in 2009 was US$1100

 

But here you claim to have paid US$799.

 

 

Just as importantly the spec of a budget laptop bought twelve years ago against the spec of a high end laptop purchased ten years ago isn't going to be a fair comparison.

 

A more fair comparison would be of my Toshiba laptop of 2009, for which I paid £250. and have spent £80 on the Samsung SSD and 8GB of RAM.

http://www.toshiba.co.uk/discontinued-products/satellite-a300-21h/

 

So your laptop cost at least three times, but likely at least four times more than mine.

 

Especially when, at the time, Apple products cost the same in Pounds in the UK as they did in the USA in US$.

 

So let's compare like with like.

 

The fact is that my budget Windows laptops are still performing faultlessly ten to twelve years later and I spent a fraction of what you have paid.

 

 

 

to be fair windows laptops can and do fail also. i had an asus eepc, one of the first small laptops and it developed all sorts of problems fairly quickly and was not worth fixing.

 

i think the heat in thailand cause more electronics to fail early imo. have had multiple failures here but not anywhere else but climate was cooler in other places.

 

i also have a lenovo carbon x1 with 2500 res touch screen and it has problems

Edited March 30, 2019 by atyclb