England.

[endure]

Much has been mentioned already, but I'll add this:

I think the labour governments hand-out driven mentality where money is given out for willy nilly reasons and not spent on more pressing issues such as the improvement of the countries transport etc x y z.

I think people who seem to believe that the UK is good for making lots of money need to see what its like north of the watford gap so to speak. The cost of living in the UK means that unless you have a property worth bombs and wealthy parents you're unlikely to make your fortune unless you have a top paying salary. The levels of University graduates debt is appalling, and the jobs they are going into often pay £20k if they are lucky.

So you think that those who don't have the benefit of attending university ought to subsidise those who do? Someone on the minimum wage ought to fund university students through their taxes? Milkmen should be obliged to pay for the education of barristers?

[ThaiPauly]

I am proud to be English.

I still have a home there although I rent it out..and I would never sell it. It is very close to the Cotswolds which is a beautiful part of England.

The Town itself suffers little violence , there is little sign of immigration there and employment is high.

However my Parents live on the outskirts of London,,,when I go to see them I see big changes in the neighborhood I grew up in. My Parents are scared to go out becuase there is so much street crime. The days of "Bobbys" walking the beat are long gone, and this has lead to a breakdown in law and order. Whilst out shopping there I have witnessed thefts and apparantly muggings take place in high streets in broad daylight.! Also the area now has more foreigners than locals which makes integration very difficult.

If my parents were younger and had no strong family ties there they would have left 40 years ago...but that is because of where they live. They are to old to move away now, they could not deal with the stress of it all and need to be near their Doctors, even though it takes months to see them as the national health service is a complete mess!

If you are able to move away from the big cities England can still be a very "Green and Pleasant Land"

I miss Sunday Roasts...going to watch my Football team..a great Curry and my freinds... I also miss Christmas..its just not the same here, and this year I intend to return for what could well be the last while both my parents are alive.

[Jookster]

Much has been mentioned already, but I'll add this:

I think the labour governments hand-out driven mentality where money is given out for willy nilly reasons and not spent on more pressing issues such as the improvement of the countries transport etc x y z.

I think people who seem to believe that the UK is good for making lots of money need to see what its like north of the watford gap so to speak. The cost of living in the UK means that unless you have a property worth bombs and wealthy parents you're unlikely to make your fortune unless you have a top paying salary. The levels of University graduates debt is appalling, and the jobs they are going into often pay £20k if they are lucky.

So you think that those who don't have the benefit of attending university ought to subsidise those who do? Someone on the minimum wage ought to fund university students through their taxes? Milkmen should be obliged to pay for the education of barristers?

The welfare state is such an interesting topic, sociologically, historically, philosophically even psychologicaly! Endure presents a classic point to the welfare state and a wholly valid one at that. Willy nilly reasons as JimKnight said are usually that one has no money.

However it should still be questionned as to whether the welfare state, has, can and is being 'abused'. There is no way though that in a developed country that the welfare state cannot exist, it is simply a developed element of societal development. Look at Thailand, if you have no children, are old and poor you are well and truly down on your luck.

Often people refer to that the welfare state supports thing like girls becoming pregnant to get housing. Is this the case? I'm not sure. If it is then surely we have to look at why girls (and no doubt their socio-economic background is a predominant factor) want to do this. Rather than to simply blame the welfare state. As I said before though, we must question the idea of abuse. A complicated state of affairs.

BTW Its interested how classic right wing arguments of immigrants and the welfare state are being very clearly stated.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Jookster

[Nignoy]

Much has been mentioned already, but I'll add this:

I think the labour governments hand-out driven mentality where money is given out for willy nilly reasons and not spent on more pressing issues such as the improvement of the countries transport etc x y z.

I think people who seem to believe that the UK is good for making lots of money need to see what its like north of the watford gap so to speak. The cost of living in the UK means that unless you have a property worth bombs and wealthy parents you're unlikely to make your fortune unless you have a top paying salary. The levels of University graduates debt is appalling, and the jobs they are going into often pay £20k if they are lucky.

The 'welfare' state and its abuse is another possible reason. A classic example is how in the UK some girls deliberately gets themselves pregnant and just to claim benefit as a 'single' mum and works on the side!

Think about it, if she has 7 daughters and they do the same thing 16 years down the line.. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that why the economies in a mess.

Incidentally I don't see why my hard earned cash from working at sea is then taxed should be used to fund lazy people who just do the babies for benefits thing and given all this bonus cash by the government. The government ignores single folk too, nothing is done to assist them, its just families this and marriage that.

British society is now far too hand-out orientated and open to being abused by immigrants and local alike, other countries which have this have more responsible citizens who are less likely to abuse the system and for them this works. If you have a system where parents are soley responsible and not this 'we'll' look after you no matter what, people would think twice before having kids and acting irresponsibly.

If you get a society where single parents are the norm (which it practically is in the UK) then unfortunately the effects are manifested in the style of higher crime rates, violence, drug use and so on. Lack of respect for other people and all the while you have this binge drinking mentality amongst many working class folk. The hoodie wearing young fools fed stupid TV programs encouraging disrespect to their elders and arrogant behavour etc etc It all adds up to one big mess.

When that UN report came out on the state of kids growing up I was not suprised in the slightest. Britain, England especially is in a right old mess. The pension systems break-down means that the futures grim and I count myself as glad to have an escape route being planned to LOS.

I would hate to be growing up in the UK now as a kid, its bad enough as an adult.

Rant over.

Talking about young single girls in UK getting pregnant for the single parents allowance, here in australia they get a minimum one off payment of 3,500dollars and a fortnightly pension of 500 dollars minimum , plus rent allowance meat vouchers and petrol vouchers too, we have single parents who have never worked in our village with 4 or 5 children getting over 1000 dollars a week and working part time there are dole bludgers everywhere not just UK Nignoy

[JimsKnight]

Much has been mentioned already, but I'll add this:

I think the labour governments hand-out driven mentality where money is given out for willy nilly reasons SNIP lucky.

So you think that those who don't have the benefit of attending university ought to subsidise those who do? Someone on the minimum wage ought to fund university students through their taxes? Milkmen should be obliged to pay for the education of barristers?

The welfare state is such an interesting topic, sociologically, historically, philosophically even psychologicaly! Endure presents a classic point to the welfare state and a wholly valid one at that. Willy nilly reasons as JimKnight said are usually that one has no money.

However it should still be questionned as to whether the welfare state, has, can and is being 'abused'. There is no way though that in a developed country that the welfare state cannot exist, it is simply a developed element of societal development. Look at Thailand, if you have no children, are old and poor you are well and truly down on your luck.

Often people refer to that the welfare state supports thing like girls becoming pregnant to get housing. Is this the case? I'm not sure. If it is then surely we have to look at why girls (and no doubt their socio-economic background is a predominant factor) want to do this. Rather than to simply blame the welfare state. As I said before though, we must question the idea of abuse. A complicated state of affairs.

BTW Its interested how classic right wing arguments of immigrants and the welfare state are being very clearly stated.

Indeed it is, on the abuse of the welfare state I was presenting the 'darker' side of what is one answer to poverty but the abuse that is being overdone to a great extent.

A good argument to the poor old person with no money is quite simple. If you have a country where no such thing exists to provide for the old and infirm, then this in turn serves as encouragement to save more and use their money more wisely for their dotage!

I think British Society as a whole is a very peculiar place in many ways. It is an Island, yet so many seem to think of it as a country the size of France or larger.

I think as a nation we have so much to learn in our mentality and attitude from the French and Germans ( and they from us a little too).

I've lived amongst them and the differences are massive and dare I say it, they have a much sharper outlook and sensible approach to life than we Brits.

[philliphn]

I am a British and American citizen. I have dual nationality. I left England in 1968. My father was part of the brain drain to the USA. He is a professor of medicine and in (book) Whos Who in Medicine. He is 82 years old and works 6 and a half days a week. I got a Masters Degree in the number 1 rated University in my specilaity, as did my brother. I have not been back to England since 1968. However, I think I can shed some light on a few issues raised in this thread. Though my experience is in the USA.

I think that you wil encounterl xenophobia not only in Thailand. You will find it in the USA and from what I gather in England as well.

Speaking of the USA. A significant number of immigrants realize that their is great oppourtunity in the USA; if you get an education! That is not to say all immigrants seek a PHDs.

I remind people that the USA is essentially a country of immigrants.

As you all know for many reasons the USA economy is not doing so well at this point in time. This limits the number of oppourtunities.

For many years the USA did not have much competition from Europe, Asia, or Mexico.

Things changed! Europe, Asia, Mexico. Started to compete with the USA. With technology, quality products and inexpensive labor.

Many USA workers had become arrogant and lazy. (I did not say all). They did not think that they should have to struggle and make the effort to get an education. (Though they felt more deserving than any one.). Afer all their parents had not done so and got good paying low skill factory jobs. They would laugh at the people spending much effort and time getting educations. "You are a professional student ha ha ha". They were making alot of money with out it. Also, that education did not mean that you would make more money than they did. They would tell their children. You don't like school it is ok. You can get a job like dad at Fords. Dad Knows some one he has the inside track.

But things have changed and they did not change thier attitudes, enough, or fast enough.

What do you have now? Alot of angry resentful people. They feel enormously entitled. Like most people they don't want to look inwardly to understand and solve problems. That can be painful and hard work. The solution is not quick and easy either. (Who to blame?)

So what do you typically get from people (world wide people). I know this may not include every country in the world and all Human Beings on the planet. They point fingers. Of course they think the problem has nothing to do with them. It is those immigrants. The ones that make it so hard for us to compete, because they got all that educatiion. The ones who are willing to work harder and for less than any one to get a start. "We should not have to". "It is them!" "They look different then us!"

"Don't they know the University is a White Mans Club". I am quoting what I have heard myself. Not a View that I bellieve in.

In the USA for many years Black people had no civil rights and were excluded from education. This was not that long ago. This is another segment of the population that the majority did not have to compete with and just exploited. Yes I know we have a problem with crime and Black people in the USA. To say other wise, though perhaps politically correct, would not be the truth.

Having made this critique. I also say that the United States of America is one of the greatest countries in the world. But we should not be so arrogant as to be unable to make some social critques. Many here are quick to make social critiques about Thailand. I read them with interest and have learnd alot. Not that I agree with every word. I don't expect every one to agree with every word that I have written.

If I offend I am sorry it is not my intention to. I am sure that I have left important things out. I am limited as to how I am able to write.

I wish I could retire in Thailand today!

Edited March 7, 2007 by philliphn

[spot]

Interesting just how many posters cite 'immigration' as a big problem in England.

Interesting how many of these same posters live, or are thinking of living in Thailand.

So, in the future, when Thais are complaining about the white English, drunken hordes taking over their lovely beach resorts, and 'the sun' newspaper is the biggest selling daily paper - where do they go?

[Grover]

some pommies come to paradise in QLD, australia, to live just to get away from their wretched motherland.

[Jookster]

I am a British and American citizen. I have dual nationality. I left England in 1968. My father was part of the brain drain to the USA. He is a professor of medicine and in (book) Whos Who in Medicine. He is 82 years old and works 6 and a half days a week. I got a Masters Degree in the number 1 rated University in my specilaity, as did my brother. I have not been back to England since 1968. However, I think I can shed some light on a few issues raised in this thread. Though my experience is in the USA.

I think that you will xenophobia not only in Thailand. You will find it in the USA and from what I gather in England as well.

Speaking of the USA. A significant number of immigrants realize that their is great oppourtunity in the USA; if you get an education! That is not to say all immigrants seek a PHDs.

I remind people that the USA is essentially a country of immigrants.

As you all know for many reasons the USA economy is not doing so well at this point in time. This limits the number of oppourtunities.

For many years the USA did not have much competition from Europe, Asia, or Mexico.

Things changed! Europe, Asia, Mexico. Started to compete with the USA. With technology, quality products and inexpensive labor.

Many USA workers had become arrogant and lazy. (I did not say all). They did not think that they should have to struggle and make the effort to get an education. (Though they felt more deserving than any one.). Afer all their parents had not done so and got good paying low skill factory jobs. They would laugh at the people spending much effort and time getting educations. "You are a professional student ha ha ha". They were making alot of money with out it. Also, that education did not mean that you would make more money than they did. They would tell their children. You don't like school it is ok. You can get a job like dad at Fords. Dad Knows some one he has the inside track.

But things have changed and they did not change thier attitudes, enough, or fast enough.

What do you have now? Alot of angry resentful people. They feel enormously entitled. Like most people they don't want to look inwardly to understand and solve problems. That can be painful and hard work. The solution is not quick and easy either. (Who to blame?)

So what do you typically get from people (world wide people). I know this may not include every country in the world and all Human Beings on the planet. They point fingers. Of course they think the problem has nothing to do with them. It is those immigrants. The ones that make it so hard for us to compete, because they got all that educatiion. The ones who are willing to work harder and for less than any one to get a start. "We should not have to". "It is them!" "They look different then us!"

"Don't they know the University is a White Mans Club". I am quoting what I have heard myself. Not a View that I bellieve in.

In the USA for many years Black people had no civil rights and were excluded from education. This was not that long ago. This is another segment of the population that the majority did not have to compete with and just exploited. Yes I know we have a problem with crime and Black people in the USA. To say other wise, though perhaps politically correct, would not be the truth.

Having made this critique. I also say that the United States of America is one of the greatest countries in the world. But we should not be so arrogant as to be unable to make some social critques. Many here are quick to make social critiques about Thailand. I read them with interest and have learnd alot. Not that I agree with every word. I don't expect every one to agree with every word that I have written.

If I offend I am sorry it is not my intention to. I am sure that I have left important things out. I am limited how I am able to write.

I wish I could retire in Thailand today!

Interestingly your point on the state of many USA workers, work, education and immigrants is really the same point that I made in relation to the UK.

[ThaiPauly]

Here is a classic example of the deterioration of the NHS in the UK.

A 72 year old London man was told that he needed a heart by-pass.

The specialist said that he would have to wait 2 years for it on the NHS. 2 years he may not well survive. The surgeon told him he could have the operation done privatley for 70k the following week.

This old man was a pensioner livng in a Council Flat with no reciurse to this kind of money..but he said Yes OK do it.

When he arrived for the operation he was asked for the money but said he left his cheque book at home and would pay after.

Of course he could not pay...but he had the operation that probably saved his life...he is now paying it off at a pound a week or something like that !

It is shocking that he had to do this to save his life..but I say good for him.

My Father had to have a biopsy on his prostrate on January 7th. His follow up to go through the results of that biopsy is MARCH 12th...more than 2 months...(they mislaid his file at the Hospital)..but when they discovered this they did not make an earlier appointment..just gave him THAT date to come back..he hould have been seen within 2 weeks! if he has a problem it will be another 2-3 months before they take any action...he could very well be in serious trouble for a Man of his age.I wanted to send him private but he wont here of it...says he paid all his life for his healthcare so why should it be paid for twice?...and of course he has a valid point...but it does not help him.

[terry57]

some pommies come to paradise in QLD, australia, to live just to get away from their wretched motherland.

and the rest come to live in perth, walking around with there hairy white legs, wearing there sandles with long socks on a 40 degree day.

but there good for our economy as they eat <deleted> loads of fish and chips, but they clogg up our hospitals when they have heart attacks.

there also dont spend much on electricity, and they only have a bath every 4 days, saving our enviroment from contamination with green house gases.

they also dont need a fridge because they love drinking warm beer.

but at the end of the day i like my pommy mates, as they got a top sense of humour.

cheers boys.

[Skyline]

Interesting replies here.

I think alot of whats being said here depends on each persons experience in a certain area of England.I agree there are some nice places in England.

As for the posters that said "pointing the finger at immigrants is wrong"....what?

So who do we point the finger at?...Let me guess.Society?

The fact is that the largest majority of offenders in London are black.Fact.

Am I wrong to call them immigrants because they hold UK pasports.I dont think so.

Ive had friends that moved from other parts of England to live and work in London and they were always very much against my views on why we have so many problems in London which in my view is due to London being overwhelmed by immigrants,three years on,these same friends have exactly the same views as I do and have moved away again.

[sceadugenga]

I can't really judge the UK because I've never spent more than a month at a time there and I must say I never saw a place I didn't like. But when you're on holiday you only go to those sort of places.

Inner city areas have always had problems, from the conditions that bred the Black Death in the Middle Ages to Hells Kitchen in New York; immigrants, overcrowding and high unemployment have always been an appalling mix.

The answer lies in full employment in quality work and there just aren't enough jobs to go around, technology has seen to that. Immigration is generally blamed but it's unavoidable, politicians rely on the support of ethnic groups who oppose laws to restrict it. I suppose the trick would be to not let them in in the first place but it's pointless trying to lock the stable door now, the horse has well and truly bolted.

I'll agree with an earlier poster that education is one of the answers but only history will reveal if a workable solution was ever found.

[ThaiPauly]

and the rest come to live in perth, walking around with there hairy white legs, wearing there sandles with long socks on a 40 degree day.

We NEVER wear sandles and long white socks.....you are confusing us with Germans or Americans !

[Casanundra]

The beautiful parts of rural England will always remain English no matter what happens as immigrants tend not to want to leave the sanctuary of their own communities within the cities and the only time they do visit rural England is to go and commit a crime.

All of this however is fine by me because inner cities in England are just becoming slum areas and who wants to live there anyway.

It is true that the UK has had a huge brain drain and anyone with the sense or the brains has already left the shores for warmer climes, however those with an eye for opportunities don't burn their bridges either because huge holes are being left in the employment market that are currently being left unfilled.

This therefore increases demand for the brains and the talent, which in turn pumps up the salaries.

So here is my advice. By all means come and live in LOS and live the relaxed life but also keep that telescopic eye back on what's happening in your old industry / career. When you spot an opportunity to do lucrative contract work or to get a position back in England that offers a greater salary to what you had when you left then my advice is to simply just go for it. Use the situation to your advantage!

If you have done your tax planning before hand and are happy to live fluidly enough, you will be in a great position to cash in on the opportunities as they present themselves back home whilst also being able to retreat back to LOS again for a battery recharge when you need it. If you repeat this cycle every two years you will never get bored with LOS and will have nothing to complain about when you return.

I work to the following ratio: 1 month UK = 3 months LOS. Great innit!

Edited March 7, 2007 by Casanundra

[bendix]

An utterly disgraceful thread which should be closed for two reasons:

1) It has nothing to do with Thailand, and

2) It's full of hate-filled racist nonsense that has no part on this forum.

I'm English and proud of it. But some of the posts here, make me ashamed to be a fellow citizen. I also live in Thailand and am acutely aware of my status as an immigrant. Are the people who have left England because of the 'pakis' and muslims not in the least aware of the irony that they are the new immigrants, or doesnt it matter because - after all - they're white and superior?

Where are the mods?

[Skyline]

A disgraceful thread?

Everybody here has aired their opinions,why should it be a taboo subject and closed because some people dont agree with others?It is a forum after all.

Did I ever say I was white and therefore superior?No.

I know I'm somewhat of an immigrant myself to be living in Thailand and if you notice in my original post I made reference to immigration laws in both Thailand and the UK,therefore it does have something to do with Thailand.Right?

[bendix]

Well, you could be right.

But you're not.

You're wrong.

[spot]

Ironic that the dumbest bigots cite immigration as one of the main reason for leaving the UK, then here in Thailand, drink at English style pubs, seek out English breakfasts, and wear England football shirts. The really stupid ones then start blabbing on about how the 'paki's' keep to themselves.

I've heard the 'too many paki's in the UK' shit plenty of times since I've been here in Thailand - because I'm white and English, some idiots presume that it's ok to spout that sort of garbage in my company.

Bigotry is just stupidity, or madness (i.e Hitler)

[MarkBKK]

A disgraceful thread?

Everybody here has aired their opinions,why should it be a taboo subject and closed because some people dont agree with others?It is a forum after all.

Did I ever say I was white and therefore superior?No.

I know I'm somewhat of an immigrant myself to be living in Thailand and if you notice in my original post I made reference to immigration laws in both Thailand and the UK,therefore it does have something to do with Thailand.Right?

You really are a thoroughly nasty piece of work. Having lived and worked for most of my life in central and SE London, it has long been clear that it's people like you who are the problem not, as you so nearly said (and I parpahrase), ''anyone who's not white, even if they've got a passport and they're born and bred in England''.

I'm glad you've left London -- your sort are neither wanted nor needed there -- but I'm ashamed that you are now in Thailand, spouting this racist rubbish.

[Neeranam]

Did you know hitler was Scottish?

http://media.putfile.com/MacHitler

[Neeranam]

Being Scottish, I was born with a hatred for anything to do with England. Now, I actually like 'English' curries and think they are even better than the ones in India. I met an English guy about 7 years ago who was a really decent bloke. I think I may be responsible for some anti English sentiment from the Thai people - I apologize. All I do is tell them the history of my country and what the English did to our monarchy.

[ThaiGoon]

All I do is tell them the history of my country and what the English did to our monarchy.

I actually sort of first learned that from "Braveheart."

[HarryHacker]

An utterly disgraceful thread which should be closed for two reasons:

1) It has nothing to do with Thailand, and

2) It's full of hate-filled racist nonsense that has no part on this forum.

I'm English and proud of it. But some of the posts here, make me ashamed to be a fellow citizen. I also live in Thailand and am acutely aware of my status as an immigrant. Are the people who have left England because of the 'pakis' and muslims not in the least aware of the irony that they are the new immigrants, or doesnt it matter because - after all - they're white and superior?

Where are the mods?

Can’t agree more, close this trash!

[Kananga]

Ironic that the dumbest bigots cite immigration as one of the main reason for leaving the UK, then here in Thailand, drink at English style pubs, seek out English breakfasts, and wear England football shirts. The really stupid ones then start blabbing on about how the 'paki's' keep to themselves.

I've heard the 'too many paki's in the UK' shit plenty of times since I've been here in Thailand - because I'm white and English, some idiots presume that it's ok to spout that sort of garbage in my company.

Bigotry is just stupidity, or madness (i.e Hitler)

How do you know the dumbest bigots on this thread drink in English style pubs and seek out English breakfasts? Is it in their profile, or are you just jumping to conclusions?

What about clever liberals? Do they only eat in Thai restaurants? What's the basis for your claims?

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(Neeranam @ 2007-03-07 11:08:55)

All I do is tell them the history of my country and what the English did to our monarchy.

I actually sort of first learned that from "Braveheart."

Wasn't actually that long ago, a terrible thing to do. I believe in the laws of karma, so as a nation, England is getting what it deserves.

I went up to a guy sitting in KFC the other week, wearing an English football shirt. Jokingly, I said, "where you from mate?" He punched his fist in the air and shouted, Iiiiinngland Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinglaaaand" - I had to laugh, where I come from he wouldn't get out alive.

[Kananga]

Being Scottish, I was born with a hatred for anything to do with England. Now, I actually like 'English' curries and think they are even better than the ones in India. I met an English guy about 7 years ago who was a really decent bloke. I think I may be responsible for some anti English sentiment from the Thai people - I apologize. All I do is tell them the history of my country and what the English did to our monarchy.

You can't beat a bitter Scot for someone to laugh at! Did the Thais return the favour by telling you about what they did with the Burmese monarchy? Of course not!

Wasn't actually that long ago, a terrible thing to do. I believe in the laws of karma, so as a nation, England is getting what it deserves.

My, you really are bitter! So regardless of the fact that no one for at least the last 8 generations was even on the face of the planet when this terrible thing happened, you are going to blame them all anyway just because they happened to be born there. Well, that's intelligent. Laws of karma indeed. What a load of old tosh! Talk about bigotry! You have to be the biggest bitterest bigot here!

Edited March 7, 2007 by Kananga

[srisatch]

Quite!

Actually I wonder what the point of the General Forum is. If all it does is provide a soap box for racism, bigotry and churlishness-which goes un- moderated-what's it for? Most of the current 15 or so topics are just bar/pub gossip-Compare with the invaluable boards on Visas etc. Maybe its time for the Inquisoitor general and The Grim Reaper

Oh!Did you know there are both more so called ethnic groups living in LOS and more languages spoken in Thailand than in the UK

[Neeranam]

You can't beat a bitter Scot for someone to laugh at!

Oh, where are you from? I'm not bitter, I'm joking.

[ThaiGoon]

Being Scottish, I was born with a hatred for anything to do with England. Now, I actually like 'English' curries and think they are even better than the ones in India. I met an English guy about 7 years ago who was a really decent bloke. I think I may be responsible for some anti English sentiment from the Thai people - I apologize. All I do is tell them the history of my country and what the English did to our monarchy.

You can't beat a bitter Scot for someone to laugh at! Did the Thais return the favour by telling you about what they did with the Burmese monarchy? Of course not!

They most likely didn't. But they probably did try to ask about what English men did to native Americans in North America to get all the land though.