Thais Lose Their Smile

[george]

Thais lose their smile

The level of national happiness continues to decline, according to the latest survey by Abac Poll.

BANGKOK: -- In a survey conducted between February 23 and Saturday Abac found the so-called Gross Domestic Happiness Index had slipped to 5.66 from 5.68 in January and 6.30 last September. The index is measured on a 10-point scale.

The survey was conducted on 4,229 people in 20 provinces.

"What's worrying is that foreigners living in Thailand are less happy, too," said Abac director Dr Noppadon Kannika. The index for expatriates fell to 6.57 points in the most recent survey from 6.91 in January, Noppadon said.

Among Thai respondents, 81 per cent cited political conflict and uncertainty as the main reason for declining happiness, he said.

Environmental risks and natural disasters were cited by 74 per cent. Other reasons for unhappiness were economic worries and unrest in the South. Some respondents also expressed concern that the problems at iTV would create chaos.

Among expatriates political uncertainty was the main reason for declining happiness.

"When the coup leaders took over in September, people were happier than today. So, the government and the Council for National Security should urgently give some political direction and return power to the people soon," Noppadon said.

However, respondents brightened up when asked about national culture and traditions and the sufficiency-economy theory promoted by His Majesty the King.

Noppadon said more people said they were adhering to the principles of the sufficiency economy. The number of those who said they were adhering to the principles rose to 39 per cent in the latest survey from 32 per cent in January. There were also four times happier than the general population, Noppadon said.

--The Nation 2007-03-12

[Sing_Sling]

Noppadon said more people said they were adhering to the principles of the sufficiency economy. The number of those who said they were adhering to the principles rose to 39 per cent in the latest survey from 32 per cent in January. There were also four times happier than the general population, Noppadon said.

Umm, quite.

[Scott]

This Happiness index is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. It was some kind of reaction, I think, to the declining of the economy. Well, guess what, if the economy declines, so will the overall happiness level!

Basically, it's just so unscientific and really doesn't tell us anything. Am I happy? It depends on when you ask me--stuck in traffic on my way to work--absolutely not! Sitting having a cool drink after work, waiting for the traffic to subside--absolutely yes!

There are things about the lives of people that can be measured and then changed which would result in a better index of sorts.

[peter991]

The happiest people in Thailand seem to be those who live in Issan - I always get a smile from them. They are financially poor and have been for many generations - but they are rich in smiles.

The unhappiest people seem to be officials at the Airport. Seen one of them smile lately?

Peter

[ratcatcher]

The happiest people in Thailand seem to be those who live in Issan - I always get a smile from them. They are financially poor and have been for many generations - but they are rich in smiles.

The unhappiest people seem to be officials at the Airport. Seen one of them smile lately?

Peter

Although this is a generalization, it's pretty accurate. Poor people always seem to be happier and I have indeed found many Isaan country folk very friendly.

Maybe it's because they don't have to agonize over which fancy restaurant to eat dinner in, or whether to get the BMW 730 or 740 in silver or black.

The guy who sweeps the soi around where I live makes maybe B50 a day and probably sleeps on the floor. His wardrobe is worth maybe B200, yet he still manages to smile. These people will probably be looked after by Buddha in the next life.

BTW today my happiness rating is 82.5% (with a 2% margin of error).

Edited March 12, 2007 by ratcatcher

[andy1308]

I've often joked about this, but just take a look around on the BTS or MRT every morning and evening and you'll see that the vast majority of Thai people look really unhappy.

[Plus]

This Happiness index is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

Thailand is not the only country in the world that uses it. Though initially invented by Bhutan, similar concepts have been applied in some western countries as well. Recently UK based New Economics Foundation released a world-wide ranking of the countries.

Like it or not, it's here to stay.

It is surely subjective but I don't see how it is different from election results in principle - a compbined result of millions of subjective opinions.

In each study I've seen, btw, the happiness index and the economic prosperity do not correlate at all. Now THAT's the food for thought.

[cdnvic]

It's uncertain times. People can adjust to poverty, or economic downturns, but not knowing what's coming next causes anxiety.

[Nam Plah]

The Happiness Index Ticker.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Nam Plah

[Brutiniero]

The statement that poor people are more happy and that the people in the rural areas of Thailand (Esarn) are happier is bu**it.

It 's only not their style to put their sorrows and burden upon you.

And when they smile it's like hello stranger, but has nothing to do with happieness.

Mostly they make parties and appear to be happy because it is better that to think about the worries and kill themself over it.

So folks, if you want to be happy get poor and try it, you'll see.

[ColPyat]

The statement that poor people are more happy and that the people in the rural areas of Thailand (Esarn) are happier is bu**it.

It 's only not their style to put their sorrows and burden upon you.

And when they smile it's like hello stranger, but has nothing to do with happieness.

Mostly they make parties and appear to be happy because it is better that to think about the worries and kill themself over it.

So folks, if you want to be happy get poor and try it, you'll see.

Thank you, finally a bit of common sense here.

[suegha]

Who was it that said (Bob Hope rings a bell)...

I've been rich and I've poor and I know which one I prefer.

Also...

It's true that wealth doesn't bring happiness, but it allows you a better form of misery.

[Plus]

So you are saying that studies actually mistake happiness for well-covered, deep-down misery. That's a tall claim to make.

Or are you yourselves taking refuge in a blank denial?

[ColPyat]

So you are saying that studies actually mistake happiness for well-covered, deep-down misery. That's a tall claim to make.

Or are you yourselves taking refuge in a blank denial?

The "happiness index" is not a study, but an almost comical excuse for dictatorships, invented by Buthan, a country that has a rather sad reputation for Human Rights violations.

And yes, any claims that the poor are particularly happy to be poor is below contempt, and not even worth a discussion. Just go and live in a poor village for a change, get close to the people, and come back with your ridiculous claims.

This attitude is highly insulting.

[Brutiniero]

@Plus

take the tomatoes from your eyes and follow ColyPats advice and please don't rant in your comments like you speak about science. It isn't.

[luckyluke]

Wherever i go i see people smiling,maybe they are unhappy,who knows? except the so-called "experts" of course.

[thedude]

i believe there are 2 schools of thought here.

to create happiness, either

1) provide good education and training, equal opportunities for jobs, fair access to capital, social justice.

2) keep the masses uneducated but indoctrinated, unified under a social order based on acceptance of inequality, and therefore more easily appeased into contentment.

it could be argued that both schools require their own "infrastructure" in order to work. i'd say the type of infrastructure for the latter is more apparent in the case of thailand and therefore the easier path to follow.

what gets to me however is my own belief that humankind is hotwired for progress, its encoded in our DNA, because we all exist to provide for a more enriched and secure environment for our progeny since we need to survive as a species.

i dont think any civilisation frozen in a sort of utopic self contentment can survive the long haul, it wont be long before it starts to self combust if it is not in fact made redundant by other competing civilisations.

[blaze]

i believe there are 2 schools of thought here.

to create happiness, either

1) provide good education and training, equal opportunities for jobs, fair access to capital, social justice.

2) keep the masses uneducated but indoctrinated, unified under a social order based on acceptance of inequality, and therefore more easily appeased into contentment.

it could be argued that both schools require their own "infrastructure" in order to work. i'd say the type of infrastructure for the latter is more apparent in the case of thailand and therefore the easier path to follow.

what gets to me however is my own belief that humankind is hotwired for progress, its encoded in our DNA, because we all exist to provide for a more enriched and secure environment for our progeny since we need to survive as a species.

i dont think any civilisation frozen in a sort of utopic self contentment can survive the long haul, it wont be long before it starts to self combust if it is not in fact made redundant by other competing civilisations.

Well said Dude.

There's another element too- hope. That can take the form of material hope- something that the poor in many parts of the world currently enjoy- but in Thailand to a lesser degree due to the majority's having to rely on the largesse of the big boys.

And hope in the religious sense- On one of these surveys, Nigeria scored very high- and I recall a Nigerian guy saying that most people in Nigeria are either devout Christians or devout Moslems- and for both, they believed that good times would be had by all- once they croaked. In either case though, history shows that blissful ignorance doesn't last forever. (Wait till the Christians in Nigeria have to deal with a local varient of Liberation Theology).

[ColPyat]

2) keep the masses uneducated but indoctrinated, unified under a social order based on acceptance of inequality, and therefore more easily appeased into contentment.

it could be argued that both schools require their own "infrastructure" in order to work. i'd say the type of infrastructure for the latter is more apparent in the case of thailand and therefore the easier path to follow.

And given the massive amount of drug addiction pre drug war repression especially under those sectors it should be an indicator that they are not exactly happy with the status quo. But due to educational and social factors they are not exactly given much opportunity to voice their discontent. Which in turn makes it rather easy for the ones up the ladder proclaiming loudly the supposed happiness of those on the lower scales here.

And personally speaking - my wife does come from such a sector of society, and i have not seen them particularly happy about their dire poverty, and its consequences such as not being able to afford quality schooling for their children, having to go foraging in the forest for food to survive when the planting and harvesting season is over and day labor jobs are scarce, men having to live with the constant and very real fear of losing their wifes to prostitution, and living in constant terror of the more powerful sectors in the equally hierarchal village society.

Now, some of the sentiments voiced here in this thread, if directly voiced in front of those people, in a "wong lao", could earn such proponents of happiness in poverty a good slapping around.

[Plus]

All "Isanese" people I know here are quite happy with their lives. Does that count? People went out to Isan, interviewed them and found them to be happy. Does that count? People went out and interviewed folks in over a hundred countries around the world and found that many "poor" are actually quite happy. Does that count?

Should I put tomatoes in my eyes and pretend that they are the most miserable souls ever?

Even people scavenging for food in the forest can (can!) be happy if they know that they will always find enough. Security is a very important factor. Just a week ago there was a news report about a wealthy businessmen who killed himself and all his family because he no longer felt secure about the future. Debts got him. That's, btw, is a bit of traditional Thai/Chinese wisdom - never have any debts.

Hope, desire for better life - I agree that these are very important, but please note that they are not directly linked to absolute leveles of material prosperity. Happiness is a state of mind, not a state of pocket.

People consumed by envy will never be happy no matter what. Of course it's easier to succumb to envy if you have a lot less than others. And here I agree with Thedude again - people will be more content if they are kept with their own and Thai system is designed to keep people within their social boundaries.

[blaze]

People consumed by envy will never be happy no matter what. Of course it's easier to succumb to envy if you have a lot less than others. And here I agree with Thedude again - people will be more content if they are kept with their own and Thai system is designed to keep people within their social boundaries.

How might a government formulate policy based on this insite? Perhaps by denying lower classes exposure to the lifestyles of their wealthier neighbors, (no TVs for the poor- no more trips to the big city) or by denying them the ladders (education being chief) that permits people to climb out of their social boundary? Or perhaps by educating people to simply 'know their place' and get on with life and quit trying to rise above their upbringin'.

Some posters quote studies that suggest that there is an inverse link to material well being and happiness. However, some studies don't support this. At all: One international survey conducted last year by the University of Leicester rates the happiest countries on earth in descending order as Denmark, Switzerland, Austria, Iceland and the Bahamas and with Burundi- where poverty is equally distributed- trudging in at a numbingly depressing 178.

Edited March 13, 2007 by blaze

[Artfullmover]

WELL gentlemen. There is only one thing to say.

The time has come to welcome these people of yesterdays "Third World" into our modern day world.

Where will most of us run to now. It looks "our" societies values have finaly caught onto the Thai's and influenced there culture.

Cant blame it on anyone as it is a step to "PROGRESSION" into the modern world.

Shame thought, I always wondered if we had adapted to some of the "THAI CULTURE' before we lost our values back here in the land of OZ how well our lives could be. ( The American Democracy policies system has sure has ripped our society apart). LONG LIVE THE GOOD OLD USA. (you guy have an OUTSTANDING foriegn policy, well for the rich and influencial anyway.

Oh well no use crying in spilt milk.

[Plus]

people will be more content if they are kept with their own and Thai system is designed to keep people within their social boundaries.

How might a government formulate policy based on this insite? Perhaps by denying lower classes exposure to the lifestyles of their wealthier neighbors, (no TVs for the poor- no more trips to the big city) or by denying them the ladders (education being chief) that permits people to climb out of their social boundary? Or perhaps by educating people to simply 'know their place' and get on with life and quit trying to rise above their upbringin'.

Well, showering them with the loans they can't repay to get more and more things they never knew existed in the first place is another extremity. TVs are actually important as they keep people in place forever - right in front of their TVs, no more trips to the big city.

The key, of course, is not to deny, but not to overtly promote. It's like advertising, it has never made anyone content with his life. It's important for the economy, I know, but many question the validity of consumerism/globalisation driven models of society.

Some posters quote studies that suggest that there is an inverse link to material well being and happiness. However, some studies don't support this. At all: One international survey conducted last year by the University of Leicester rates the happiest countries on earth in descending order as Denmark, Switzerland, Austria, Iceland and the Bahamas and with Burundi- where poverty is equally distributed- trudging in at a numbingly depressing 178.

Hold on, I, for one, never said that there's an inverse link. I said that they do not correlate. The Leicester study you mention is not only about happiness - they "analysed data published by UNESCO, the CIA, the New Economics Foundation, the WHO, the Veenhoven Database, the Latinbarometer, the Afrobarometer, and the UNHDR". Maybe their index is more reliable than The University of Michigan's World Values Surveys which had only two questions - Are you happy with your life? Are you satisfied?

Even in the Leicester study - you didn't mention these interesting rankings:

8 - Bhutan

13 - Costa Rica

14 - Malta

16 - Antigua/Barbuda

17 - Malaysia

23 - USA

35 - Germany

41 - UK

62 - France

Those last four should be right at the top judging by their general wealth.

This happiness thing has certainly generated a lot of interest in the past couple of years. I think disillusionment with globalisation and "democracy" in the west had a lot to do with it - everyone is looking for alternative models.

[blaze]

WELL gentlemen. There is only one thing to say.

The time has come to welcome these people of yesterdays "Third World" into our modern day world.

Where will most of us run to now. It looks "our" societies values have finaly caught onto the Thai's and influenced there culture.

Cant blame it on anyone as it is a step to "PROGRESSION" into the modern world.

Shame thought, I always wondered if we had adapted to some of the "THAI CULTURE' before we lost our values back here in the land of OZ how well our lives could be. ( The American Democracy policies system has sure has ripped our society apart). LONG LIVE THE GOOD OLD USA. (you guy have an OUTSTANDING foriegn policy, well for the rich and influencial anyway.

Oh well no use crying in spilt milk.

What are you trying to say? That it is America's fault that Thailand is not as happy as a year ago?

If you think that poverty breeds contentment, there is an entire continent that should provide you with enough happiness for several lifetimes. Most Thais would not want to abandon their material possessions any more than most Australians would- and it's not because the Americans taught them that. They are simply--- human. As people develop the means to provide themselves with more creature comforts they come to value those comforts. Nothing what soever to do with America. This abusrd notion that Thailand was poor but happy by choice - that people have to be seduced into preferring to drive a car over walking in the rain- gimme a break. They were poor because they had no choice. And for many, it hasn't changed a lot.

[Plus]

Envy and greed are sins, but so it poverty. People really struggling to make their ends meet will never be happy.

The point is that many "poor" people do not feel that they are stressed at all to provide for themselves.

I'd like to mention it again - there's no inverse link between happiness and wealth, no one said that.

[blaze]

Envy and greed are sins, but so it poverty. People really struggling to make their ends meet will never be happy.

The point is that many "poor" people do not feel that they are stressed at all to provide for themselves.

I'd like to mention it again - there's no inverse link between happiness and wealth, no one said that.

Agree with your first statement- the second I didn't understand and the third, I apologize for putting words in your mouth. But in fact there does appear to be a corelation between certain aspects of material well being and 'happiness'. Namely, educational opportunity, overall health and health care and individual prosperity. That was certainly the conclusion of the people who evaluated the Leicester study- (though for the record, I don't put a lot of stock in any of these 'happiness' indices.)

I'd be curious though Plus- perhaps on another thread- about your view that people in the west are unhappy with democracy. Did you mean the perversion of democracy by big business? Or did you mean the principle of majority rule?

[Plus]

Basically the way Bush got into office and Blair and Howard cling to it.

For many Thais life is easy - there's rice, fish sauce, and papaya trees. I still remember old Crutch joke about his maid from Yasothon - she couldn't grasp the idea that papayas could be sold for profit instead of eating them.

"Living on less than two dollars a day" doesn't tell the whole story.

Educational opportunites, health care - they are all important for happiness, they are aspect of material prosperity, but usually material prosperity is judged simply by GDP per Capita. Those monetary terms do not correlate with happiness, i really mean do not always correlate with happiness.

[bingobongo]

what a truly magical place, where fairy dust and dreams are just that.....maybe thais are realizing (hence the unhappiness) that the coup has really turned into a pumpkin............

Thai corruption 'worse since coup'

(BangkokPost.com) - Corruption in Thailand has grown worse in the past year in the opinion of foreign businessmen, who say only the Philippines now has more graft in the Southeast Asian region.

The survey by the Hong Kong-based Political and Economic Risk Consultancy (PERC) showed that on a scale of 1-to-10, Thai corruption last year was 7.64, and has sunk to its current status of 8.03.

The Philippines is worst in the region, with a score of 9.4, down from 7.8 last year.

At the other end of the scale is the paragon of cleanliness Singapore, which is even less corrupt now than it was a year ago - hard to imagine - with a score of 1.2, compared with 1.3 last year.

The survey ranked 13 nations, as perceived by foreign businessmen - i.e. people living or based outside the country being voted on. Thai businessmen were polled, but not on Thailand.

Here are the rankings, with last year's scores in brackets, least corrupt to worst.

1. Singapore, 1.20 (1.30)

2. Hong Kong, 1.87 (3.13)

3. Japan, 2.10 (3.01)

4. Macau, 5.11 (4.78)

5. Taiwan, 6.23 (5.91)

6. Malaysia, 6.25 (6.13)

7. China, 6.29 (7.58)

8. South Korea, 6.3 (5.44)

9. India, 6.67 (6.76)

10. Vietnam 7.54 (7.91)

11. Indonesia, 8.03 (8.16)

11. Thailand, 8.03 (7.64)

13. Philippines, 9.40 (7.80)

Thailand and Indonesia, both on a grade of 8.03, shared the spot as Asia's second most corrupt nations.

Thailand's image worsened slightly on last year while Indonesia's score was better.

The junta that ousted Thaksin Shinawatra as Thailand's prime minister last September promised to fight corruption "but there is no reason to be confident that its behaviour will be any cleaner," PERC said.

http://www.bangkokpost.net/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=117400

[ColPyat]

All "Isanese" people I know here are quite happy with their lives. Does that count? People went out to Isan, interviewed them and found them to be happy. Does that count? People went out and interviewed folks in over a hundred countries around the world and found that many "poor" are actually quite happy. Does that count?

Should I put tomatoes in my eyes and pretend that they are the most miserable souls ever?

Even people scavenging for food in the forest can (can!) be happy if they know that they will always find enough. Security is a very important factor. Just a week ago there was a news report about a wealthy businessmen who killed himself and all his family because he no longer felt secure about the future. Debts got him. That's, btw, is a bit of traditional Thai/Chinese wisdom - never have any debts.

Hope, desire for better life - I agree that these are very important, but please note that they are not directly linked to absolute leveles of material prosperity. Happiness is a state of mind, not a state of pocket.

People consumed by envy will never be happy no matter what. Of course it's easier to succumb to envy if you have a lot less than others. And here I agree with Thedude again - people will be more content if they are kept with their own and Thai system is designed to keep people within their social boundaries.

The most unequal distribution of available land is not in Isaarn but in the North. So, if we look into rural poverty - we should first look into the North. Secondly, i don't like the generalization of people from one region of a country as collectively "poor". In Isaarn, and the North, there are many very wealthy and educated people, there are many classes. Even in single villages you have poor and relatively wealthy farmers and even a small business class.

You make a large jump here saying that even people scavenging for food for survival can be happy. Yes, of course, they can have moments of happiness. Even in war zones and refugee camps you see people smiling at you and experiencing moments of happiness. That is very human.

In a general sense though a person who scavenges for food may have his moments of happiness, though he will have many issues in his life of extreme unhappiness. Those issues are that he may scavenge enough food for survival, but will not have enough money to enable his children a proper education (and there will be very few people in the middle classes who came from landless seasonal farm laborers). He will live with the knowledge that most likely his daughters will become prostitutes, and before that will be sexually abused by the powerful people in the village, and that there is very little he can do about that.

And then somebody from the city comes with a questionnaire, asking those people if they are happy. Of course they will say that they are happy. Because of they say they are unhappy, and give the reasons for their unhappiness, they will clash with the classes that cause his unhappiness, which is a battle these people have learned from bitter experience to avoid because they can't win.

Much easier to say that they are happy.

And personally, my wifes brothers, and cousins, and uncles, and aunts are all people who had to, and mostly still have to scavenge for food. And they may laugh and joke a lot. But they are everything else than happy about their shitty life scavenging for food. Suicide is a very common form of death there. Several of my wife's cousins died that way.

My wifes brothers got much happier since i have bought enough land so that they can start a farm, work the farm, make profit from their labor beyond pure subsistence, and can buy all the things they could never afford before in their life, such as their own color TV's, fridges, motorcycles.

Heck, they have even given up the amphetamines because they didn't need to escape their shitty reality anymore.

Very patronizing telling those people that happiness is a state of mind, and that they should be happy without being able to afford all those things that you and me take for granted, because they should be happy to life under this great happy Thai system of inequality where people are supposed to stay within their boundaries, where the poor should be happy to be poor, and the middle and upper classes should be allowed to own most of the wealth of this country.

Try to tell that the cousins of my wife who have killed themselves.

Edited March 13, 2007 by ColPyat

[ColPyat]

For many Thais life is easy - there's rice, fish sauce, and papaya trees. I still remember old Crutch joke about his maid from Yasothon - she couldn't grasp the idea that papayas could be sold for profit instead of eating them.

Ah, old Roger Crutchley is now the source of how villagers in Thailand feel and think. A funny satire is a truly excellent source of information for a serious discussion about social problems.

Next you may be quoting Monty Pythons to support your views on society...