Thailand Blacklisted From Receiving New AIDS Drugs

[garro]

simple then as we know how it is transmitted then eliminate that and no drugs will be needed.

What is Thailand doing with it's Billions in reserve currency. As most Aids now days and the last several years is passed on by senseless means like prostitution and drug use. Why not stop that

and 90% of their costly problem will be gone.

What about the ones already affected. They are the ones who need this drug.

Being Responsible may be to much for Thailand I guess.

Seems most of their whole countries economy is from foreign sources and technology.

you could say the same for England and other countries where a large % of the economic value comes from the stock exchange.

They do own the rights to Jasmin rice and Karoake songs that they which they enforce.

I guess it is just too much to expect their own people to help themselves out and pay a little more tax

and act responsible. Better to let others come up with the products and technology for the fix

then try to steal it.

Thailand has done nothing illegal

What a backwards way to do things in this day and age. No wonder Thailand attracts much of the

_ _ _ _ of modernized countries.

Well, what can I say. This is just your opinion.

[Khun ?]

I don't know, tell me what they should do. They have no problems eliminating drug dealers,

maybe use coconut juice or ask their own people to help those that were irresponsible and

continue to be so. Take your choice

If the people that produce it cannot make money, then put out fake stuff and let them steal the fake stuff.

When more people die because it's fake who can you blame, the ones that stole the fake stuff.

If it don't work they will try to blame the manufacture right, you get what you pay for.

I like your gold necklace and I need it for food, steal it right. My life depends on eating and I need drugs and sex

[aqua4]

simple then as we know how it is transmitted then eliminate that and no drugs will be needed.

What is Thailand doing with it's Billions in reserve currency. As most Aids now days and the last several years is passed on by senseless means like prostitution and drug use. Why not stop that

and 90% of their costly problem will be gone.

Being Responsible may be to much for Thailand I guess.

Seems most of their whole countries economy is from foreign sources and technology.

They do own the rights to Jasmin rice and Karoake songs that they which they enforce.

I guess it is just too much to expect their own people to help themselves out and pay a little more tax

and act responsible. Better to let others come up with the products and technology for the fix

then try to steal it.

What a backwards way to do things in this day and age. No wonder Thailand attracts much of the

_ _ _ _ of modernized countries.

Well said! We have had this debate hundreds of times. I am glad in this thread I am not the only person who can see beyond the emotional crap. Responsibility, that is the keyword.

Edited March 18, 2007 by aqua4

[garro]

I don't know, tell me what they should do. They have no problems eliminating drug dealers,

maybe use coconut juice or ask their own people to help those that were irresponsible and

continue to be so. Take your choice

If the people that produce it cannot make money, then put out fake stuff and let them steal the fake stuff.

When more people die because it's fake who can you blame, the ones that stole the fake stuff.

If it don't work they will try to blame the manufacture right, you get what you pay for.

I like your gold necklace and I need it for food, steal it right. My life depends on eating and I need drugs and sex

Sorry Khun? but I am honestly having trouble understanding this post . It just sounds like a ramble that is going nowhere.

Are you suggesting that they should execute people with HIV or give them fake drugs?

Your post makes no sense to me. Maybe it will to someone else?

[Dupont]

Thing is Garro, It's not just his opinion.

Theft is theft. In a nutshell, Abbott released a drug here, the Thais broke the patent (which is stealing, whether Thai, America, English do it) and Abbott then said we not giving you the new one.

All the good doctors working for the good of the patient and mankind etc, still need big money for trailing and production etc. so don't come the lefty crap. They are also the subject of massive lawsuits, lawsuits that would bring the average Joe to his knees.

These big companies give an umbrella to all the hard working doctors and scientists so they can carry on with their research and the company will stand the loss when sued. Without this shielding from the harsh world of litigation, who in their right mind would release any new drug onto the market? At this trailing stage remember, you have no proof that it will a, work on humans, or b, not kill people with side effects.

When you grow up, maybe you will have a small business, maybe even a big one. When your lawyer steals your idea on the way to the Labour Department, or Patent Office and registers it in his wifes name (happens a lot) what do you do? Go and have a new idea, and give it to the same lawyer again to do the same with? Course not Garro, because this time its your money and ideas that have been stolen and thats different isn't it?

[solo siam]

I would find it really quite humorous if the "cure" for AIDS was found in a specific Thai species of plant or animal, Then we'd see exactly how the USA would act if the shoe was on the other foot.

Sorry but I have no time for people who only save lives for money, sure I know its part of the plan but these drug companies are making MASSIVE profits without plundering the developing countries. To me its the same as the movie and music industry, why should a song cost a days wages here, when in the UK, Europe or the USA it costs 5% of a days wage.

[A_Traveller]

Theft is theft. In a nutshell, Abbott released a drug here, the Thais broke the patent (which is stealing, whether Thai, America, English do it) and Abbott then said we not giving you the new one.

Pardon? Sorry given that this thread has become somewhat disjointed, may I ask you to clarify exactly what Thailand has 'stolen'?

Regards

[Dupont]

I would find it really quite humorous if the "cure" for AIDS was found in a specific Thai species of plant or animal, Then we'd see exactly how the USA would act if the shoe was on the other foot.

Sorry but I have no time for people who only save lives for money, sure I know its part of the plan but these drug companies are making MASSIVE profits without plundering the developing countries. To me its the same as the movie and music industry, why should a song cost a days wages here, when in the UK, Europe or the USA it costs 5% of a days wage.

Hilarious. Is it a school day where you are?

Do you think that the Thais wouldn't sell it? Making them the same as Abbot (which is hypocracy btw).

Or do you think they shouldn't sell it?

Would they go for the moral high ground and give it away?

What about Burma, do you think Thailand would offer it up to them at 10% of the price they would sell it to Westen Countries?

To A Traveller. It's not for me to fill in the gaps in your Politically Correct education.

Edited March 18, 2007 by Dupont

[gbswales]

Gotta look at the source of this information.

Its not a balance report, but an emotional outburst against the traditional enemies of the left, the USA, business and anybody with any money.

Without business and profit from previous drugs, there would be no new drugs of this kind for anyone at any price.

Not trendy, but it is true! Sorry

This response is equally as reactionary as the report it refers to.

Medicine and drugs should not be developeed for profit - pure and simple - the rich governments of the world should properly fund research instirtues that should be responsible for development of new treatments available worldwide irrespective of a countries ability to pay. commercial companies could be licensed for the actual production of the drugs providing they are sold at cost plus a reasonable profit margin - however there would need to be some kind of worldwide tarrif in place to ensure that countries paid for them according to their means not according to their wealth.

This would lead to higher taxation in wealthier countries which is something nobody "likes" but in a global civilisation should governments still be taking decisions on the basis of what "people like" - what it ultimately means is that the rich help the poor - can someone argue that this is not morrally right

[garro]

Thing is Garro, It's not just his opinion.

Theft is theft. In a nutshell, Abbott released a drug here, the Thais broke the patent (which is stealing, whether Thai, America, English do it) and Abbott then said we not giving you the new one.

All the good doctors working for the good of the patient and mankind etc, still need big money for trailing and production etc. so don't come the lefty crap. They are also the subject of massive lawsuits, lawsuits that would bring the average Joe to his knees.

These big companies give an umbrella to all the hard working doctors and scientists so they can carry on with their research and the company will stand the loss when sued. Without this shielding from the harsh world of litigation, who in their right mind would release any new drug onto the market? At this trailing stage remember, you have no proof that it will a, work on humans, or b, not kill people with side effects.

When you grow up, maybe you will have a small business, maybe even a big one. When your lawyer steals your idea on the way to the Labour Department, or Patent Office and registers it in his wifes name (happens a lot) what do you do? Go and have a new idea, and give it to the same lawyer again to do the same with? Course not Garro, because this time its your money and ideas that have been stolen and thats different isn't it?

It has been acknowledged that Thailand was within its rights to issue a licence.

One of the reasons why there is so much litigation is that there has been so many mistakes made by these drug companies in the past.

You have a very idealised view of the drug business. These drugs are discovered by many people working in research establishments who not only don't receive any credit for this but also little in the way of compensation.

I think it is a bit childish to label people you don't agee with as 'lefties'; It is very 1950s. Maybe you should accuse me of being a muslim instead I wouldn't mind.

[jdinasia]

I would find it really quite humorous if the "cure" for AIDS was found in a specific Thai species of plant or animal, Then we'd see exactly how the USA would act if the shoe was on the other foot.

Sorry but I have no time for people who only save lives for money, sure I know its part of the plan but these drug companies are making MASSIVE profits without plundering the developing countries. To me its the same as the movie and music industry, why should a song cost a days wages here, when in the UK, Europe or the USA it costs 5% of a days wage.

Hilarious. Is it a school day where you are?

Do you think that the Thais wouldn't sell it? Making them the same as Abbot (which is hypocracy btw).

Or do you think they shouldn't sell it?

Would they go for the moral high ground and give it away?

What about Burma, do you think Thailand would offer it up to them at 10% of the price they would sell it to Westen Countries?

To A Traveller. It's not for me to fill in the gaps in your Politically Correct education.

Better find out who is actually FUNDING the real research before going off on this rant

[Mid]

Better find out who is actually FUNDING the real research before going off on this rant

National Governments and Private Funds / Trusts and so forth ,

lota digging to get to Commercial Enterprises ....................

[A_Traveller]

[To A Traveller. It's not for me to fill in the gaps in your Politically Correct education.

In other words, they have not 'stolen' anything under international law.

Regards

[solo siam]

I would find it really quite humorous if the "cure" for AIDS was found in a specific Thai species of plant or animal, Then we'd see exactly how the USA would act if the shoe was on the other foot.

Sorry but I have no time for people who only save lives for money, sure I know its part of the plan but these drug companies are making MASSIVE profits without plundering the developing countries. To me its the same as the movie and music industry, why should a song cost a days wages here, when in the UK, Europe or the USA it costs 5% of a days wage.

Hilarious. Is it a school day where you are?

Do you think that the Thais wouldn't sell it? Making them the same as Abbot (which is hypocracy btw).

Or do you think they shouldn't sell it?

Would they go for the moral high ground and give it away?

What about Burma, do you think Thailand would offer it up to them at 10% of the price they would sell it to Westen Countries?

To A Traveller. It's not for me to fill in the gaps in your Politically Correct education.

You're totally missing the point, and being obnoxious and childish at the same time, BTW obviously its Sunday anywhere in the world and obvously not a schoolday.

They may not sell it - They don't sell land to foreigners, regardless of how much money it would make them! What would most likely happen if a cure for Aids was dicoverd in some flora or fauna from Thailand, is that a US/EU company would jump in and patent it, simply because they know more about patent laws than the averge Thai company.

Take Aspirin for example, willow bark and leaves had been used for nearly 2000 years for pain relief before Bayers "Patented" it in 1900 or whatever.

EA seem to be able to offer computer games (much easier to pirate or copy, than drugs) at 25% of the cost in Europe/USA and still make it profitable why should drugs only give a minimal discount to stop copying? If a lower in production company can offer the exact same product at 30% of the cost (and still make a profit), then it makes sense that the major manufatcurer could offer it at the same cost and still make more profit than the copying company.

Drugs for 3rd world countries are longtail in terms of revenue, its not a primary market and any "extra" revenue should be seen as a bonus.

BTW its "Hypocrisy"

[Khun ?]

why manufacture and research drugs if you cannot make a living off it, and something like Aids

which is for the most part irresponsible now days, specially in a country like Thailand.

They can hoard billions in foreign currency but then cannot help out their poor for being irresponsible.

All drug companies need to stop selling and providing drugs and research to Thailand.

Let them figure it out themselves. If the cure was in a plant it Thailand it would never be found by a thai most likely.

I do not feel I should have to work and pay taxes so thailand can have cheap drugs for problems that are mainly self induced.

I want to be a lazy muck and have others pay for my stupidity also so none of us will have drugs if we all do the same.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Take Aspirin for example, willow bark and leaves had been used for nearly 2000 years for pain relief before Bayers "Patented" it in 1900 or whatever.

The Aspirin patented by Bayer was not the same as that found in nature.

"In 1897, researcher Arthur Eichengrün and Felix Hoffmann, a research assistant at Friedrich Bayer & Co. in Germany, derived one of the hydroxyl functional groups in salicylic acid with an acetyl group (forming acetylsalicylic acid, an acetyl ester). This thereby greatly reduced the negative effects caused by the free phenolic group of salicylic acid. When in the body, the ester (aspirin) is hydrolyzed to free the active drug. This was the first synthetic drug, not a copy of something that existed in nature, and the start of the pharmaceuticals industry."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin#Discovery

[garro]

Take Aspirin for example, willow bark and leaves had been used for nearly 2000 years for pain relief before Bayers "Patented" it in 1900 or whatever.

The Aspirin patented by Bayer was not the same as that found in nature.

"In 1897, researcher Arthur Eichengrün and Felix Hoffmann, a research assistant at Friedrich Bayer & Co. in Germany, derived one of the hydroxyl functional groups in salicylic acid with an acetyl group (forming acetylsalicylic acid, an acetyl ester). This thereby greatly reduced the negative effects caused by the free phenolic group of salicylic acid. When in the body, the ester (aspirin) is hydrolyzed to free the active drug. This was the first synthetic drug, not a copy of something that existed in nature, and the start of the pharmaceuticals industry."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin#Discovery

well it must be true if it is in the wikipedia

[solo siam]

If you are a USA citizen then YOUR taxes dont discover drugs, so that Thailand can have them for cheap. Since the pharmaceutical companies are not funded by the government.

AIDS is hardly self-induced, unlike depression and obesity in the USA.

Seriously if you hate the thought of ill people being helped in third world countries to gain a penny extra off of your stock options, then piss offf, stop coming here and dont bother posting on a Thai based site.

From what I know the US drugs companies offered a WHOPPING 10% off the bulk purchase of drugs, How can that compete against an exact copy at 40% of the price, surely the USA drug companies either don;t have efficient production systems or are just trying to rip off third world companies

Good on Thailand, most countries are relying on the USA less ad less, hence the crap currency rate - personally looking forward to those 25 baht to teh US$ exchange rates myself.

[endure]

Can we have less of the personal insults please.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

AIDS is hardly self-induced, unlike depression and obesity in the USA.

How so? With few exceptions AIDs is a preventable disease. However, human nature being what it is most do not take the necessary precautions. My biggest problem with the Thai approach is the lack of charity among the Thai people. Wealthy Thais seldom donate to chariatable causes. How much medication could be bought and distributed for free if the the wealthy Thais and the middle class contributed? Even if they do, where does the money go? My observations of Thai charitable foundations is that most are set up to benefit the founder, often a wealthy individual, and the founder's family. The same exists in developed countries as well but not to the extent I have seen in Thailand.

As to the other diseases, Depression IS NOT a self induced condition. Genetics plays a major role in the brain chemistry of chronic depression. Some obesity is self induced. Some is hereditary. Some is caused by failing glands, again not self induced.

Edited March 18, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[nick2k]

If you are a USA citizen then YOUR taxes dont discover drugs, so that Thailand can have them for cheap. Since the pharmaceutical companies are not funded by the government.

AIDS is hardly self-induced, unlike depression and obesity in the USA.

Seriously if you hate the thought of ill people being helped in third world countries to gain a penny extra off of your stock options, then piss offf, stop coming here and dont bother posting on a Thai based site.

From what I know the US drugs companies offered a WHOPPING 10% off the bulk purchase of drugs, How can that compete against an exact copy at 40% of the price, surely the USA drug companies either don;t have efficient production systems or are just trying to rip off third world companies

Good on Thailand, most countries are relying on the USA less ad less, hence the crap currency rate - personally looking forward to those 25 baht to teh US$ exchange rates myself.

I like it. I like it. no, actually, I love it. I love it. before you know it, my dream will come true. all the jobs and factories will go back to america providing jobs to americans.

the way it should be.

keep it coming, guys. I love your logic.

I just hope the companies start seeing it my way. and realize that they are not benefiting from outsourcing everything overseas.

..when you think about it, we are on the same side. how ironic. you don't like western companies in thailand. ..and I don't think they should be there too.

keep up the good work, guys. I luv ya.

[solo siam]

AIDS is hardly self-induced, unlike depression and obesity in the USA.

How so? With few exceptions AIDs is a preventable disease. However, human nature being what it is most do not take the necessary precautions. My biggest problem with the Thai approach is the lack of charity among the Thai people. Wealthy Thais seldom donate to chariatable causes. How much medication could be bought and distributed for free if the the wealthy Thais and the middle class contributed? Even if they do, where does the money go? My observations of Thai charitable foundations is that most are set up to benefit the founder, often a wealthy individual, and the founder's family. The same exists in developed countries as well but not to the extent I have seen in Thailand.

As to the other diseases, Depression IS NOT a self induced condition. Genetics plays a major role in the brain chemistry of chronic depression. Some obesity is self induced. Some is hereditary. Some is caused by failing glands, again not self induced.

How is Obesity in any way Genetic? Go look at any black and white photos - how many massively obese people feature in them? You get fat from eating too much food, simple as that.Twenty years ago I had never ever seen an obese person, why do I now see lots every single day - Don't tell me its glandular or some other crap, there is nothing in the world that can create energy out of thin air.

Why are the genetics that predispose soemone to depression, any different than those that predispose someone to promiscuity etc... I could also go on about people not taking the "necessary precautions" against obesity and depression.

You cant argue that AIDS is prventable whilst OBESITY is not, thats crazy.

[garro]

AIDS is hardly self-induced, unlike depression and obesity in the USA.

As to the other diseases, Depression IS NOT a self induced condition. Genetics plays a major role in the brain chemistry of chronic depression. Some obesity is self induced. Some is hereditary. Some is caused by failing glands, again not self induced.

Some obesity is self induced.....hmmmm. I think you will find there is a very strong positive correlation between eating too much and becoming obese. I also think you will find that it increases the more a society turns to a western fast food diet.

In regards to the chronically depressed I am not sure where you are getting your information from (hopefully not the wikipedia) but, as far as I am aware, there are no definite conclusions of where it originates, only theories. If I am wrong I aplologise.

[JacksonGlurk]

...Good on Thailand, most countries are relying on the USA less ad less, hence the crap currency rate - personally looking forward to those 25 baht to teh US$ exchange rates myself.

What an incredible demonstration of sheer, overwhelming ignorance, even by the remarkable new standards this board seems to set most every day for that sad category of achievement. Incredible.

[endure]

3) Religious or racial slurs, rude and degrading comments towards women, or extremely negative views of Thailand will not be tolerated.

Posts have been deleted. Any more extreme negativity or personal insults will result in the poster being suspended.

[solo siam]

...Good on Thailand, most countries are relying on the USA less ad less, hence the crap currency rate - personally looking forward to those 25 baht to teh US$ exchange rates myself.

What an incredible demonstration of sheer, overwhelming ignorance, even by the remarkable new standards this board seems to set most every day for that sad category of achievement. Incredible.

Wow - how was my post ignorant, are you denying that the peoples confidence in the USA has been dented? or are you saying that my wishing that the Dollar reaches 25 to the baht is ignorant - either don't make sense. Go look up ignorance in the dictionary!

[Johpa]

Often it is useful to understand something by reversing the game.

What would Thailand think it it s major company, Thai owned, was having its drug stolen by the United States or a European government? Of course Thailand would be outraged. They would be right to be angry and retaliate by refusing to sell those nations new drugs.

If you buy stock in a company, why would you continue to own it if governments were stealing from the company and the company stopped making profits? You would not. Companies would die and no drugs would be made.

No profit--no new drugs.

End of story

I know you from the left will never give up your hate for those who make more money than you but even you know that the governments are very poor at running businesses.

Why is it the communist Cuban government has not made your new drugs?

I suspect that the reason that "communist Cuba" has not devleoped new drugs is for the same reason that countless smaller and poorer "capitalist" countries in the same economic bracket have not developed new drugs; they simply do not have the resources. By the way, you might want to contrast health care in Cuba with its peer countries in the Caribbean such as Haiti or the Domincan Republic before you go trash talking Cuba's healthcare system. And no, that comment does mean I am a huge fan of everything Fidel has said over the decades, a conclusion to which, I fear, your right wing histrionics, blended with your leaps of logic, might make. You know, the same false logic (FOX logic) that would cavalierly connects a criticism of large corporations with an imagined hatred or jealousy of individuals.

BY the way, I do make a significant contribution in taxes to the US government which funds the National Institute of Health (NIH), a government agency which is the primary sponsor of research into developing new drugs. When do I as a taxpayer get to see a return on that investment?

[jdinasia]

If you are a USA citizen then YOUR taxes dont discover drugs, so that Thailand can have them for cheap. Since the pharmaceutical companies are not funded by the government.

Wrong again ..... MUCH public and charitable funding goes into the research ... FAR more than the drug companies put into it! (That is until they get into the testing and marketing phase ... THEN the big Pharm co's get involved!)

[jdinasia]

why manufacture and research drugs if you cannot make a living off it, and something like Aids

which is for the most part irresponsible now days, specially in a country like Thailand.

They can hoard billions in foreign currency but then cannot help out their poor for being irresponsible.

All drug companies need to stop selling and providing drugs and research to Thailand.

Let them figure it out themselves. If the cure was in a plant it Thailand it would never be found by a thai most likely.

I do not feel I should have to work and pay taxes so thailand can have cheap drugs for problems that are mainly self induced.

I want to be a lazy muck and have others pay for my stupidity also so none of us will have drugs if we all do the same.

Better think THAT through too ........ your paying taxes etc has absolutely 0 to do with Thailand or medicine .... But I guess if you COME to Thailand you'll sing another tune about having medicine available here!

[Johpa]

Medicine and drugs should not be developeed for profit - pure and simple - the rich governments of the world should properly fund research instirtues that should be responsible for development of new treatments available worldwide irrespective of a countries ability to pay. commercial companies could be licensed for the actual production of the drugs providing they are sold at cost plus a reasonable profit margin - however there would need to be some kind of worldwide tarrif in place to ensure that countries paid for them according to their means not according to their wealth.

This would lead to higher taxation in wealthier countries which is something nobody "likes" but in a global civilisation should governments still be taking decisions on the basis of what "people like" - what it ultimately means is that the rich help the poor - can someone argue that this is not morrally right

Well what you have described is pretty much how most truly new drugs are indeed developed. The largest funder of drug research is the US National Institute of Health. There are other smaller yet similar government funded agencies in Europe. What happens is that in the US, the big pharma companies and their lobbyists have created a system of laws that, once a drug has passed the early high risk trial phases, allow these companies to swoop in and purchase the patents for a song.

The companies do not often, if ever, actually manufacture the drugs. There are other companies world wide who do the manufacturing. What the big pharma companies do is to market the drugs. They are, at heart, marketing companies. What research they do in-house is most often aimed at protecting their patents by creating slightly new patentable variants of drugs that are going off patent, you know the marketing slogans, "new and improved". They also fund research into creating "me-too" drugs, similarly slight variations to a competitor's new drug, which is why we get competing drugs for everthing from cholesterol lowering drugs to the always popular in Bangkok erectile dysfuction drugs.