Trump presses for contentious census citizenship question despite legal uncertainty

[bristolboy]

5 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

My opinion is that law, anywhere, should neither be left nor right but forward and just.

This is just the kind of pabulum we expect politicians to say.  You know, to make whatever views that politician happens to espouse as being the legally and constitutionally correct ones. I see you as doing the same thing.

[rgraham]

It is a survey to determine how many people live in the country and asking if they are or are not citizens seems to be an important piece of information to me. Legally they are required to register their presence anyway so what is the issue? Think about Thai immigration and how they would approach the issue.

[Redline]

13 hours ago, expatfromwyoming said:

Supreme Court ruled that administration officials had given a "contrived" rationale!!! Everything about this administration is contrived

Even its existence 

[Redline]

2 hours ago, rgraham said:

It is a survey to determine how many people live in the country and asking if they are or are not citizens seems to be an important piece of information to me. Legally they are required to register their presence anyway so what is the issue? Think about Thai immigration and how they would approach the issue.

Why would the USA follow the Thai approach ????.  Read the purpose of the census, and there is your answer 

[jany123]

7 hours ago, bristolboy said:

... What about actual issues?  Laws and courts. You know, legislation. I guess all that is irrelevant or of little importance to you....

 

7 hours ago, Thainesss said:

 

None of that matters when the one party is hell bent on subverting the entire process by flooding the country with illegal aliens. 

Or when the other party is hell bent on flooding the court system with partisan judges.

[bristolboy]

What's really funny is that the Justice Dept asked for and got permission to leapfrong all the other courts because it said it need a decision by June 30 to get the census printed on time. Apparently, they lied to the judges. They're not going to be happy about that.

[Issanman]

Someone stating on a census that they are not a citizen does not incriminate that person.

 

There are plenty of non-citizens living there legally and for legitimate reasons.

 

Now if they also had questions about why one is not a citizen, then yes, I could see a problem with that.

 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, Issanman said:

Someone stating on a census that they are not a citizen does not incriminate that person.

 

There are plenty of non-citizens living there legally and for legitimate reasons.

 

Now if they also had questions about why one is not a citizen, then yes, I could see a problem with that.

 

As various unearthed documents reveal, the Republicans don't see it like that. They are counting on the fear effect to reduce the tally of undocumented aliens.

[Credo]

1 hour ago, Issanman said:

Someone stating on a census that they are not a citizen does not incriminate that person.

 

There are plenty of non-citizens living there legally and for legitimate reasons.

 

Now if they also had questions about why one is not a citizen, then yes, I could see a problem with that.

 

Unless it is a comprehensive question, it is worthless.   Not all the people in the US that are non-citizens are illegal.   Many permanent residents.   Categorizing people as citizen or illegal or any attempt to skew the data is simply wrong.

[griffon2011]

22 hours ago, peteski1 said:

As with all data, to purpose, how it is collected, how it is kept, what is it is used for and by whom, these are the underlying concerns of today's world where civil right to privacy is increasingly challenged. The degree of controversy and more so that the POTUS would consider an executive order ... clearly he/they have no concern for anything but their own interests ... and clearly, by this blatant example of misuse and abuse of power, he/they have no real sense of the meaning of integrity where civil liberties are concerned. Assuredly, 100%, important demographics will avoid the census, no one in their right mind will willingly put themselves at risk. You have to wonder incredulously at the lack of intelligent forethought that has gone into this initiative.     

Census data was secretly used to identify Japanese Americans and send them to internment camps in WW2.  

[Credo]

10 minutes ago, griffon2011 said:

Census data was secretly used to identify Japanese Americans and send them to internment camps in WW2.  

Secret use of census info helped send Japanese Americans to internment camps in WWII

In fact, information from the 1940 Census was secretly used in one of the worst violations of constitutional rights in U.S. history: the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II.

In papers presented in 2000 and 2007, historian Margo J. Anderson of the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee and statistician William Seltzer of Fordham University found evidence that census officials cooperated with the government, providing data to target Japanese Americans.

Here
 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Credo

[Ozman52]

45 minutes ago, Credo said:

Unless it is a comprehensive question, it is worthless.   Not all the people in the US that are non-citizens are illegal.   Many permanent residents.   Categorizing people as citizen or illegal or any attempt to skew the data is simply wrong.

So if it is simply a yes/no question, you have no problems with it? Has it occurred to you that there may be other records which show how many legal non-citizens are in the country, and that a simple subtraction would reveal how many illegal residents there are? 

 

Total non-citizens - legal non-citizens = illegal non-citizens

[Sujo]

21 minutes ago, Ozman52 said:

So if it is simply a yes/no question, you have no problems with it? Has it occurred to you that there may be other records which show how many legal non-citizens are in the country, and that a simple subtraction would reveal how many illegal residents there are? 

 

Total non-citizens - legal non-citizens = illegal non-citizens

So no need for the question.

[simple1]

20 minutes ago, Ozman52 said:

So if it is simply a yes/no question, you have no problems with it? Has it occurred to you that there may be other records which show how many legal non-citizens are in the country, and that a simple subtraction would reveal how many illegal residents there are? 

 

Total non-citizens - legal non-citizens = illegal non-citizens

The trump administration purpose has been inadvertently disclosed by trump - which is redistricting. In other words gerrymandering. Whether the trump administration appeal will succeed due to his aggressive Court stacking over the past two years will be interesting.

[jany123]

1 hour ago, Ozman52 said:

So if it is simply a yes/no question, you have no problems with it? Has it occurred to you that there may be other records which show how many legal non-citizens are in the country, and that a simple subtraction would reveal how many illegal residents there are? 

 

Total non-citizens - legal non-citizens = illegal non-citizens

Ozman nails it.. yay!

 

if your not paying attention, then this here (above) is exactly the problem that including the question poses.

 

the census purpose is not to identify illegal aliens. The trump is trying to hijack a governmental tool to repurpose it to its own evil ends.

[Ozman52]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

The trump administration purpose has been inadvertently disclosed by trump - which is redistricting. In other words gerrymandering. Whether the trump administration appeal will succeed due to his aggressive Court stacking over the past two years will be interesting.

If gerrymandering is such a concern, why doesn't congress pass laws to stop it?  Because they are equally guilty.

You don't think that the Democrats would use the data for their purposes? Of course, not, that would be hypocritical????.

Is the fact that valuable data may be misused a reason not to collect it?   Certainly, ignorance is bliss, specially when it's data some don't want known.

[simple1]

3 hours ago, Ozman52 said:

If gerrymandering is such a concern, why doesn't congress pass laws to stop it?  Because they are equally guilty.

You don't think that the Democrats would use the data for their purposes? Of course, not, that would be hypocritical????.

Is the fact that valuable data may be misused a reason not to collect it?   Certainly, ignorance is bliss, specially when it's data some don't want known.

Unlike the Democrats, trump is endeavouring to destroy democratic institutions in the US as per his ideologue, Bannon. 

 

You may might find the link below of use...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering_in_the_United_States

 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by simple1

[bristolboy]

3 hours ago, Ozman52 said:

If gerrymandering is such a concern, why doesn't congress pass laws to stop it?  Because they are equally guilty.

You don't think that the Democrats would use the data for their purposes? Of course, not, that would be hypocritical????.

Is the fact that valuable data may be misused a reason not to collect it?   Certainly, ignorance is bliss, specially when it's data some don't want known.

Not always.

In New Jersey an attempt by the the Democratic leadership in the house to gerrymander failed. 

"The storm of protest came mostly from the left, from Democrats and liberal activists who want to win elections fair and square. They signed the petitions, organized the marches, and testified against the plan. Citizen groups like the League of Women Voters, the Brennan Center for Justice, and the American Civil Liberties Union of New Jersey all called this a partisan gerrymander."

https://www.nj.com/opinion/2018/12/an_inspiring_moment_as_democrats_back_off_gerryman.html

[pornprong]

On 7/6/2019 at 12:37 PM, sqwakvfr said:

Being a citizen or not is slowly becoming irrelevant in the US.  The future looks like the following; Open Borders, Free Healthcare for ALL, Drivers license for all, Free college, Universal Basic Income for all and eliminatiion of all agencies that enforce Immigration Laws.  Therfore why do I need a passport to enter the USA?

Americans?

Why on earth is free healthcare for all a bad thing?

As for law enforcement.....you have the highest percentage of prison inmates in the world?

What planet you on?

[pornprong]

7 hours ago, Ozman52 said:

If gerrymandering is such a concern, why doesn't congress pass laws to stop it?  Because they are equally guilty.

You don't think that the Democrats would use the data for their purposes? Of course, not, that would be hypocritical????.

Is the fact that valuable data may be misused a reason not to collect it?   Certainly, ignorance is bliss, specially when it's data some don't want known.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/11/schwarzenegger-will-back-more-gerrymandering-campaigns/575434/

[riclag]

"contentious citizenship question"

 Some say there are up to 30 million illegals in America!

Don't you want to know who's livin in your house!

 

"The U.S. Constitution requires the federal government to count the number of people in the United States every ten years—the Census. The Census is important, in part, because it is used to determine each state’s representation in the House of Representatives and the amount of federal funds allocated to states for certain programs"

https://lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/3909

 

The states who have the most to loose  are concerned!  The use of Racism in this issue is another liberal talking point.It has nothing to do with skin color

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by riclag

[bristolboy]

36 minutes ago, riclag said:

"contentious citizenship question"

 Some say there are up to 30 million illegals in America!

Don't you want to know who's livin in your house!

 

"The U.S. Constitution requires the federal government to count the number of people in the United States every ten years—the Census. The Census is important, in part, because it is used to determine each state’s representation in the House of Representatives and the amount of federal funds allocated to states for certain programs"

https://lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/3909

 

The states who have the most to loose  are concerned!  The use of Racism in this issue is another liberal talking point.It has nothing to do with skin color

 

Whether or not it has anything to do with racism is a moot point. We know from voluminous confidential papers that were released that the motivation for doing this was to create an undercount of people living in the USA. This is directly contrary to the goal of the Census which is to create an accurate count of all people living in the USA. It's that simple. The administration lied about the reason it was asking for the question to be included and got found out.

[lannarebirth]

On 7/5/2019 at 9:36 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

So, you support the inclusion of a question that would encourage people to lie in the census, or alternatively swerve the census,  thus undermining the validity to data in the census?

 

Well, I've filled it out once in 60 years. If others did the same I couldn't really begrudge them for that, could I?

[riclag]

6 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Whether or not it has anything to do with racism is a moot point. We know from voluminous confidential papers that were released that the motivation for doing this was to create an undercount of people living in the USA. This is directly contrary to the goal of the Census which is to create an accurate count of all people living in the USA. It's that simple. The administration lied about the reason it was asking for the question to be included and got found out.

The count of citizens

 

7 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Whether or not it has anything to do with racism is a moot point. We know from voluminous confidential papers that were released that the motivation for doing this was to create an undercount of people living in the USA. This is directly contrary to the goal of the Census which is to create an accurate count of all people living in the USA. It's that simple. The administration lied about the reason it was asking for the question to be included and got found out.

You make up things! Now you know the Admin lied

[lannarebirth]

I spent a couple of hours reading the full history of the census of the United States. It's aim is for a "full enumeration" of all persons residing within the US. It makes many different classifications for those people, which have changed many times throughout the years, such as free persons and slaves. What is clear is that they want to count everyone and at the same time classify everyone. Citizenship seems a pretty low bar as far as classification is concerned IMO.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by lannarebirth

[Rimmer]

A troll post has been removed

[bristolboy]

25 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

I spent a couple of hours reading the full history of the census of the United States. It's aim is for a "full enumeration" of all persons residing within the US. It makes many different classifications for those people, which have changed many times throughout the years, such as free persons and slaves. What is clear is that they want to count everyone and at the same time classify everyone. Citizenship seems a pretty low bar as far as classification is concerned IMO.

 

 

 

 

How many times does it have to be said that documents the republicans wish had remained confidential show that the Republicans were counting on this question to scare away undocumented aliens?

[riclag]

30 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

I spent a couple of hours reading the full history of the census of the United States. It's aim is for a "full enumeration" of all persons residing within the US. It makes many different classifications for those people, which have changed many times throughout the years, such as free persons and slaves. What is clear is that they want to count everyone and at the same time classify everyone. Citizenship seems a pretty low bar as far as classification is concerned IMO.

 

 

 

 

Seeing that the classifications change so many times according to your comment. Couldn't it be reasonable to ask if they are a citizen or not.Similar to asking on many applications  and questionnaires "Are you Caucasian  ,Hispanic,asian "etc etc

Edited July 8, 2019 by riclag

[lannarebirth]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

How many times does it have to be said that documents the republicans wish had remained confidential show that the Republicans were counting on this question to scare away undocumented aliens?

What difference does that make if the request is not unreasonable? We have whole divisions of government whose sole purpose is to scare away undocumented aliens.

[bristolboy]

Just now, lannarebirth said:

What difference does that make if the request is not unreasonable? We have whole divisions of government whose sole purpose is to scare away undocumented aliens.

Because if the motive is to reduce the count, then it runs contrary to the purpose of the census.