Black Mold - problem solved

[The Snark]

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323419.php

 

Most commonly seen in the bathtub, shower, sinks, and floors of the bathroom. Identified as Stachybotrys chartum in several locations in the Chiang Mai area. It is carried in spore form by water systems, regardless if the system is chlorinated or otherwise chemically treated.

 

In an effort to remove the mold from our home I tried UV treatment and a 5 micron polypro water filter. Ineffective. Added a .5 micron ceramic filter and the problem was solved. The spores are 2 micron in size, easily passing through all filter media except ceramic. They require extended exposure to UV beyond the short period of time they are subjected to the light in a normal water system and then the UV doesn't kill them, only inhibits their growth by damaging the DNA.

 

Be aware, chlorine cleaning solutions are only marginally effective in removing the mold. Powerful hydrogen peroxide solutions >25% concentration will destroy the organism and it's spores but is hazardous to use. Alcohol and thorough scrubbing of the areas where it grows appears to be more effective than bleaching.

 

Watch fors other than black growth in damp areas: Musty smell in your clothing and closet. Sinus irritation and sore throat that keeps recurring.

Edited July 18, 2019 by The Snark
Addition

[The Snark]

Additional info. The common 2" x 10" cartridge/candle type ceramic water filter can supply about 2 liters per minute. Connecting two or more in a parallel configuration can adequately supply an entire home. They are for sale everywhere for a little over 500 baht. BUT NOTE: buy the filter cartridge that is smooth ceramic, not the ones wrapped in a plastic. The ceramic cartridge can be cleaned by simply brushing the exterior with a soft brush like a tooth brush. They can be cleaned dozens of times.

This is the alternative to going to one of those water treatment companies that charge over 10,000 baht for a whole house filter system. But note, ceramic cartridges get clogged up easily. You should have a polypro filter upstream of it to remove the dirt and sediment. The 4" by 20" polypro filters are available everywhere.

 

Also, be aware, there will be mold spores on the inside of your pipes for some time after you have installed a filter. The spores are persistent but they require air to reproduce. Either wait it out, possibly a month or more, or flush out your pipes with repeated powerful chlorine solutions.

Note: thus is a fungus, not algae. Swimming pool algaecides will not touch it.

Edited July 18, 2019 by The Snark
Typo

[The Snark]

Home Brew low budget water system.

A 1000 liter water tank.

B Pressure tank-regulator. Simply a 4" pipe in the closed system that retains air.

C  Polypro 4" x 20" sediment filter

D UV, 17 watts

E Twin ceramic filters in parallel

F Pump, 300 watt

G Test of additional UV. Three additional 11 watt lights (proved ineffective on spores though effective on bacteria and algae)

 

So far, water samples produce no growth, algae, fungal or bacterial - water is potable. Flow exceeds 1 gallon per minute.

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by The Snark

[Don Chance]

Sorry but your theory is nonsense.

 

Mold spores are everywhere, they float in the air not only in the water. They grow well in tropical countries because of hot wet condition.

 

The major problem with mold is with the construction of buildings. Subfloors are not sealed properly or have proper underlayment. As mention in the bathroom the water penetrates through the tiles and mold forms under the tiles between the subfloor. Hint: don't get your floor wet.

 

The subfloor will absorb water from ledges that continue to the exterior, past the wall, sometimes to a balcony which is again not sealed properly. The water leaches to the interior subfloor and again mold will form under the tiles.

To make the problem much worse just put a septic tank under your building or slab foundation that is damp all the time.  The mold spores from the septic will much more irritating.

 

Unfortunately there is no solution for mold under the floors except taking the tiles up and cleaning the mold, then put something like carpet or vinyl roll that can be easily removed in the future and cleaned. In the dry season the mold may die off.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Don Chance

[The Snark]

@Don Chance

Targeting problematic molds is the purpose. Yes, molds are everywhere. However, the black mold mentioned in the OP is problematic. The organism creates a powerful neurotoxin. Of course, you target the infection at it's source if at all possible. Kill off the visible mold within the home and go after the source.

Simple epidemiology.

How about you read, the OP and the attached link. Learn about Stachybotrys chartum.

 

I spent 4 years on or in charge of infection control at a hospital. And your experience is:

Edited July 18, 2019 by The Snark

[IraqRon]

have you tried a solution of borax and warm water?  i use a weak solution in a foot bath to treat fungas between the toes so maybe a stronger one on the tiles.

[Don Chance]

40 minutes ago, The Snark said:

@Don Chance

Targeting problematic molds is the purpose. Yes, molds are everywhere. However, the black mold mentioned in the OP is problematic. The organism creates a powerful neurotoxin. Of course, you target the infection at it's source if at all possible. Kill off the visible mold within the home and go after the source.

Simple epidemiology.

How about you read, the OP and the attached link. Learn about Stachybotrys chartum.

 

I spent 4 years on or in charge of infection control at a hospital. And your experience is:

The source of the mold is air which grows with dampness and humidity. You can only eliminate the mold if you eliminate the moisture which i explained maybe impossible to do if it is underneath the tiles.

 

Mold is not dangerous, it causes allergy problems, all those symptoms will go away once you are away from the mold. People live in moldy condition all over the world including Thailand and have no problems because they are not allergic.

I know i am allergic to mold and have been sick with it a few times.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Don Chance

[The Snark]

@Don Chance Do I need to quote that link for you?

* Stachybotrys chartum growing on a leaking water pipe. Identified by several labs. Similar samples have been taken at public restrooms throughout the area.

* The spores go airborne in the shower. The sinuses, throat, bronchii and lungs provide an excellent growth medium.

* Long term exposure can cause permanent damage inclusive of chronic sinus conditions and scarring of the mucus membranes.

* Growth in the sinuses is extremely difficult to eradicate. Sometimes surgical intervention is required and implants may be needed.

 

 

For @Don Chanceedification:

In 1994 the US Center for Disease Control verified that a number of infants in Cleveland, Ohio became sick, and some died from pulmonary hemosiderosis (bleeding in the lungs) following exposure to unusually high levels of S. chartarum spores.

Richard F. Progovitz (September 2003). Black Mold Your Health and Your Home. The Forager Press, LLC. p. 96. ISBN 978-0-9743943-9-8.

 

There are two chemotypes in S. chartarum, one that produces trichothecene mycotoxins such as satratoxin H and one that produces atranones. 

Andersen B, Nielsen KF, Thrane U, Szaro, T, Taylor, JW & Jarvis, BB (2003). "Molecular and phenotypic descriptions of Stachybotrys chlorohalonata sp. nov. And two chemotypes of stachybotrys chartarum found in water-damaged buildings" (PDF). Mycologia. 95 (6): 1227–1238. doi:10.1080/15572536.2004.11833031.

 

 

 

• coughing
• wheezing
• a stuffy nose
• a runny nose
• red eyes
• itchy skin or eyes
• a sore or itchy throat
• nosebleeds

Black mold exposure can also potentially worsen the symptoms of other respiratory conditions. For example, a person with asthma or a respiratory allergy may find that their symptoms worsen or they experience new symptoms, such as:

• persistent coughing
• headaches
• frequent chest colds
• difficulty breathing
• allergic reactions
• inflammation of the sinuses
• general fatigue and lethargy

In rare cases, long-term exposure to high levels of these toxins may lead to more severe symptoms, including:

• memory loss
• trouble concentrating
• sensitivity to light
• anxiety
• nerve issues, such as numbness in the hands and feet
• general pain and cramps
• unexplained weight gain
• anxiety

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by The Snark

[Don Chance]

4 minutes ago, The Snark said:

@don chance Do I need to quote that link for you?

* Stachybotrys chartum growing on a leaking water pipe. Identified by several labs. Similar samples have been taken at public restrooms throughout the area.

* The spores go airborne in the shower. The sinuses, throat, bronchii and lungs provide an excellent growth medium.

* Long term exposure can cause permanent damage inclusive of chronic sinus conditions.

 

 

For @don Chance edification:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

• coughing
• wheezing
• a stuffy nose
• a runny nose
• red eyes
• itchy skin or eyes
• a sore or itchy throat
• nosebleeds

Black mold exposure can also potentially worsen the symptoms of other respiratory conditions. For example, a person with asthma or a respiratory allergy may find that their symptoms worsen or they experience new symptoms, such as:

• persistent coughing
• headaches
• frequent chest colds
• difficulty breathing
• allergic reactions
• inflammation of the sinuses
• general fatigue and lethargy

In rare cases, long-term exposure to high levels of these toxins may lead to more severe symptoms, including:

• memory loss
• trouble concentrating
• sensitivity to light
• anxiety
• nerve issues, such as numbness in the hands and feet
• general pain and cramps
• unexplained weight gain
• anxiety

 

 

 

 

Your link does not say that. I've talked to many doctors about it and they all say mold is not dangerous.

 

It says,

" These molds are not dangerous in themselves, but they can release harmful toxins into the surrounding environment. Inhaling these toxins may lead to certain health effects and symptoms. People with lung disease or weakened immune systems tend to have a higher risk of experiencing these effects. "

 

"However, there are many exaggerated claims of the dangers of black mold on the internet.

In otherwise healthy people, short-term exposure to mycotoxins is unlikely to cause harm. It generally takes time and consistent exposure to black mold for symptoms to develop."

 

Have you actually experienced allergy symptoms?  A small amount of mold in your bathroom just needs to be wiped away with regular cleaning solution.  Mold is just inhaled then released. There is tons of mold in the environment or many different types. We even eat moldy blue cheese!

 

Mold is either on something, behind something, or in something. If it is behind the tiles you will smell it. If is in something like wood it needs to be replaced. If it is one something just clean up.

[Rimmer]

A post as been removed, this is a discussion forum if you disagree with another post please discuss.

[The Snark]

2 hours ago, IraqRon said:

have you tried a solution of borax and warm water?  i use a weak solution in a foot bath to treat fungas between the toes so maybe a stronger one on the tiles. 

After just discovering the 'neuralgia' I have suffered from for the past 5 years was diagnosed as an acute mold sinus infection then my wife ending up in the hospital for several days with the same diagnosis, I have gone bananas ballistic trying things to eradicate the mold and mold source. I followed standard clinical methodology to determine the source, the water system, then tried out all the common fungicides available then a few inventions of my own. The mold organism Stachybotrys chartum is extremely hardy. It has penetrated through the FRP body of our bath tub from the underside. Bleach was completely ineffective, even in the maximum 10% concentration. Bleach simply isn't wet enough. Hydrogen Peroxide 50% was marginally better. But of course, one doesn't want either on one's skin.

The regrowth of the mold, the spores, were the serious problem. Taking a shower in untreated water was taking a shower under a spore sprayer. I tried pumping sodium hypochlorite 50% into the pipes, powerful pool fungicides, bases and acids. No go. Spore regrowth.

The final solution was those filters.

Now we have to wait. A mycologist from my university in the US guestimated it will take one to three months for the immune system to knock down the fungus. There are no anti fungal agents that can be safely used on mucus membranes.

Edited July 18, 2019 by The Snark

[SkyNets]

3 hours ago, The Snark said:

Home Brew low budget water system.

A 1000 liter water tank.

B Pressure tank-regulator. Simply a 4" pipe in the closed system that retains air.

C  Polypro 4" x 20" sediment filter

D UV, 17 watts

E Twin ceramic filters in parallel

F Pump, 300 watt

G Test of additional UV. Three additional 11 watt lights (proved ineffective on spores though effective on bacteria and algae)

 

So far, water samples produce no growth, algae, fungal or bacterial - water is potable. Flow exceeds 1 gallon per minute.

 

 

 

I would be more concerned about electrocution than the mold!

 

 

[Don Chance]

People with mold and sinus infection know it. Believe me you know it because it starts with pain and allergy symptoms, you are really stuffed up, headache your nose closes. In my case and other people we just ignore it and suffer through it and what happens is that the mold get stuck in your sinuses further because your sinuses close up all the time and do not clear. So even when you are out of the house it take weeks or months to recover because the mold is actually growing in your sinuses.

 

The brain fog is the same as when you have cold, when the pressure and symptoms are relieved then you will return to normal. People have chronic allergies their whole lives from other substances.

 

I am sorry but your water theory just doesn't work. Mold spores come from fungus, it flowers and produces mold that floats in the air. The fungus or mold needs, water or moisture, AIR and spores then it will grow. It does not grow in water it is dead. You can try an experiment by putting your moldy water on clean plate and let it sit for a few days.... no mold i am sure.

If you are having a problem in your bathroom it is no doubt caused from tile failure and the mold is growing under neath the tiles.

 

If you have mold in your house you will smell it, it is musty odor noticeable in the evening and morning. Your sinuses will be in pain. It is usually caused by mold under the tiles.  I suggest you move but most houses in Thailand older than 10 years have mold. Also septic under the houses is a guarantee for toxic mold, things are decomposing and rotten so the spores float around the entire house.

[The Snark]

2 hours ago, SkyNets said:

 

 

I would be more concerned about electrocution than the mold!

  

 

GFCI, balance type, supplies that receptacle. Double ground cables, two 2 meter copper ground rods driven fully into the earth 12 inches away from the septic tank. Tertiary redundant ground linked into system from the washing machine 3 meters away.

(My main job at that hospital was Bio-Med Engineer in charge of electrical safety.)

 

Unlike the trolls, I can document every detail of the system with clinical and or technical verification.

Edited July 18, 2019 by The Snark

[SkyNets]

Should be ashamed of yourself then, what you going to do if it leaks on your 100baht power strip cable tied to the lamp. Also an engineer and that cable management is not to code lol

[The Snark]

12 hours ago, SkyNets said:

Should be ashamed of yourself then, what you going to do if it leaks on your 100baht power strip cable tied to the lamp. Also an engineer and that cable management is not to code lol

 

That's a 120 baht plug strip! Sounds like you have had experience with the nightmares of electric here. I've got a 20,000 volt line directly across the street from us that has shorted to a tree growing through the wires three times. I've even stopped the PEA truck and pointed at the repair splice that's been incinerated causing the most recent black out.

But you missed several big ones: extension cords are forbidden. The mess pictured is temporary of course, a prototype. But if I have to use plug strips I turn them into permanent installations. I buy them entirely by how tightly they clamp the plugs, then if they become part of the household system I cut the plug off, hard wire it in, then pour epoxy into the thing and mount it. Also, the ballasts pictured are indoor use only. If I keep them they will have to be potted as well. Again, disposable. I've given up hoping for NEMA certified electrical parts here. If they are stamped as such I assume the cert is bogus.

I was buying and assuming Panasonic was reasonable quality but recently discovered bogus Panasonic plugs and receptacles. Now I carry calipers when buying electrical parts. The bogus crap doesn't maintain the rigid dimensions Panasonic has.

But aside from all that, I got my mitts on a 7.5 KVA transformer a while back from someone who was powering a US fridge here and humped all the electrical circuits in hazardous locations through it. I rewired it as a single point ground isolation transformer ala surgery suite specs. (7.5 KVA? Somebody saw that couple coming!) Also as an added bit of protection I connected the rebar of the frame of the house to my ground circuit and clamped the incoming power lines to a steel rafter frame for a little lightning surge killing. Had a strike a while back that came in on the outside of the power lines. Lightning being a little unpredictable. Quite a few wires got toasted insulation but no shorts came down.

Edited July 19, 2019 by The Snark

[The Snark]

On 7/18/2019 at 6:32 PM, SkyNets said:

Should be ashamed of yourself then, what you going to do if it leaks on your 100baht power strip cable tied to the lamp. Also an engineer and that cable management is not to code lol

 

I deeply appreciate your concern. However, the entire system has been changed, revamped, retested and so on, several times now. None of the hazards that have caused you such worry you are present.