Expat group launches online petition calling for TM.30 to be scrapped

[schlemmi]

3 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

So if I am not in a province for more than 24 hours I don't have to do a TM30?So if I drive from Yasothon and stay overnight in three separate provinces but for less than 24 hours then stay in Bangkok overnight again for less than  24hrs then three more provinces provinces on the way back to Yasothon Then I don't have to report to immigration?

    My point is if someone only stays one night at a hotel they are rarely there for 24hrs therefore the hotel or residence doesn't need to report.

    Is this correct according to the law?

No. To the local police.

[FarFlungFalang]

53 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

No. To the local police.

Immigration Act

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following : 

1. Shall not engage in the occupation or temporary or employment unless authorized by the Director General. or competent official deputized by the Director General . If , in any case , there is a law concerning alien employment provided hereafter , the granting of work privileges must comply with the law concerned. 

2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change in residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place. 

3. Shall notify the police official of the local police station where such alien resides, within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival. In the case of change in residence in which new residence is not located the same area with the former police stations , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival. 

4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty – four hours , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within forty – eight hours from the time of arrival.

5. If the alien stays in the Kingdom longer than ninety days, such alien must notify the competent official at the Immigration Division , in writing , concerning his place of stay , as soon as possible upon expiration of ninety days. The alien is required to do so every ninety days. Where there is an Immigration Office , the alien may notify a competent Immigration Official of that office. 

The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as prescribed by the Director General. 

In making notification under this Section , the alien may make notification in person or send a letter of notification to the competent official , in accordance with the regulations prescribed by the Director General .

 

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified. 

In case the house , dwelling place , or hotel where the alien has stayed under provision of Para.1 is located within the Bangkok area , such notification must be reported to the competent official at the Immigration Division. 

Making notification , in reference to the Para 1 and 2 of this Section , must comply with regulations prescribed by the Director General. 

 

 

Section 76 : Any alien, alien, who fails to comply with the provisions of Section 37(2),(3),(4)or(5) shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 5,000 Baht and with and additional fine not exceeding 200 Baht for each day which passes until the law is complied with.

Section 77 : Whoever fails to comply with the provision of Section 38, shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 2,000 Baht. If said person is a hotel manager, he shall be punished with a fine from 2,000 Baht to 10,000 Baht.

 

    Paragraph 4 seems to suggest the anybody who stays in another province for more than 24hrs must report to the local police,failure to comply will result in a fine not more than 5,000 baht and 200 baht until the law is complied with.If this is then case I would suggest that a lot of people owe a lot of money to the Thai government.

     

    Then it says: The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as prescribed by the Director General.

     Does this mean that those that come under section 34 are exempt?

    If not then about 38 million people who visited Thailand in 2018 who didn't report to the local police will be fined 5000 baht and 200 baht each day until the law is complied with.Not to mention those that visit this year!

 

         

    

[lannarebirth]

1 hour ago, FarFlungFalang said:

So if I am not in a province for more than 24 hours I don't have to do a TM30?So if I drive from Yasothon and stay overnight in three separate provinces but for less than 24 hours then stay in Bangkok overnight again for less than  24hrs then three more provinces provinces on the way back to Yasothon Then I don't have to report to immigration?

    My point is if someone only stays one night at a hotel they are rarely there for 24hrs therefore the hotel or residence doesn't need to report.

    Is this correct according to the law?

 

C'mon man; do you want to spend the rest of your life staring at your watch and jumping through hoops no one actually cares about anyway, other than to control you?

[hgma]

NongKhai 'strictly enforces TM 30 reporting as i was told this morning reporting my Lao MIL and niece @home for 2 days, very polite i must say!

[FarFlungFalang]

20 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

C'mon man; do you want to spend the rest of your life staring at your watch and jumping through hoops no one actually cares about anyway, other than to control you?

No but I don't mind jumping through the odd loop hole now and then,like the one where you don't always have to actually enter another country when doing border runs just stamp out then stamp back in without those nasty one page Lao visas and the 1300 baht price.

[lannarebirth]

2 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

No but I don't mind jumping through the odd loop hole now and then,like the one where you don't always have to actually enter another country when doing border runs just stamp out then stamp back in without those nasty one page Lao visas and the 1300 baht price.

I don't think that's possible, is it?

[Bangel72]

Wondering why they can not just have a simple app with a google map check-in single click when you move to a new place to stay, a bit invasive but got to be easier than what they have unless the goal is not about knowing where people are sleeping on any particular night.

[schlemmi]

50 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Immigration Act

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following : 

1. Shall not engage in the occupation or temporary or employment unless authorized by the Director General. or competent official deputized by the Director General . If , in any case , there is a law concerning alien employment provided hereafter , the granting of work privileges must comply with the law concerned. 

2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change in residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place. 

3. Shall notify the police official of the local police station where such alien resides, within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival. In the case of change in residence in which new residence is not located the same area with the former police stations , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival. 

4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty – four hours , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within forty – eight hours from the time of arrival.

5. If the alien stays in the Kingdom longer than ninety days, such alien must notify the competent official at the Immigration Division , in writing , concerning his place of stay , as soon as possible upon expiration of ninety days. The alien is required to do so every ninety days. Where there is an Immigration Office , the alien may notify a competent Immigration Official of that office. 

The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as prescribed by the Director General. 

In making notification under this Section , the alien may make notification in person or send a letter of notification to the competent official , in accordance with the regulations prescribed by the Director General .

 

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified. 

In case the house , dwelling place , or hotel where the alien has stayed under provision of Para.1 is located within the Bangkok area , such notification must be reported to the competent official at the Immigration Division. 

Making notification , in reference to the Para 1 and 2 of this Section , must comply with regulations prescribed by the Director General. 

 

 

Section 76 : Any alien, alien, who fails to comply with the provisions of Section 37(2),(3),(4)or(5) shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 5,000 Baht and with and additional fine not exceeding 200 Baht for each day which passes until the law is complied with.

Section 77 : Whoever fails to comply with the provision of Section 38, shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 2,000 Baht. If said person is a hotel manager, he shall be punished with a fine from 2,000 Baht to 10,000 Baht.

 

    Paragraph 4 seems to suggest the anybody who stays in another province for more than 24hrs must report to the local police,failure to comply will result in a fine not more than 5,000 baht and 200 baht until the law is complied with.If this is then case I would suggest that a lot of people owe a lot of money to the Thai government.

     

    Then it says: The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as prescribed by the Director General.

     Does this mean that those that come under section 34 are exempt?

    If not then about 38 million people who visited Thailand in 2018 who didn't report to the local police will be fined 5000 baht and 200 baht each day until the law is complied with.Not to mention those that visit this year!

 

         

    

Those under section 34 but under the conditions released by the director gemeral are exempt. That is actualy a subset of those are under 34 listet. The last item especially is not listed in the paper of director general. But Thai married, retired etc. are under others. This applies only for 37(3)(4). It does not apply to 38 and 37(2) and 37(5). 

But i have more imformation due to my personal case what i intent to publish here as the whole comtent, but i have to wait for permission becaus it contains a direct "LINE" conversation with the vice superintendend of one immigration office. I not want to get him im trouble.

[DrTuner]

1 hour ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Then it says: The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as prescribed by the Director General.

     Does this mean that those that come under section 34 are exempt?

    If not then about 38 million people who visited Thailand in 2018 who didn't report to the local police will be fined 5000 baht and 200 baht each day until the law is complied with.Not to mention those that visit this year!

This was discussed earlier in this thread. The Director General put out an order where only three categories IIRC are required to do the 24h TM28 ballet with BiB. Journalists, etc. Didn't include tourists or retirees, they are exempted. At least they had some sense there.

[FarFlungFalang]

3 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

I don't think that's possible, is it?

Done it heaps of times,my passport proves it,doesn't work everytime like yesterday but it's up to the individual IO.

[schlemmi]

4 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

This was discussed earlier in this thread. The Director General put out an order where only three categories IIRC are required to do the 24h TM28 ballet with BiB. Journalists, etc. Didn't include tourists or retirees, they are exempted. At least they had some sense there.

Tourists, i agree. But retired is under others. And others is not listed as exempted. Do you have a newer paper than i? (1.pdf)

[fakser]

Good luck!

One important thing is missing. If the TM30 can be reported online from a smartphone application, problem is solved.

Few clicks and done.

[lannarebirth]

1 minute ago, fakser said:

Good luck!

One important thing is missing. If the TM30 can be reported online from a smartphone application, problem is solved.

Few clicks and done.

But why would you? I don't know about you but I provide copious documentation when I enter the Kingdom to establish my bona fides. I see absolutely no reason to do it till the next time my visa comes under consideration.

[FarFlungFalang]

22 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

This was discussed earlier in this thread. The Director General put out an order where only three categories IIRC are required to do the 24h TM28 ballet with BiB. Journalists, etc. Didn't include tourists or retirees, they are exempted. At least they had some sense there.

Thanks yes that is a relief.Now to section 38 that does not state that those tourist and retirees are responsible for the reporting of people staying at any form of residence yet I'm hearing reports of people being fined for just that when it is the owners and managers that are required to do the reporting,I would be interested to hear if any fine payments have been issued with receipts.If the answer is no then my bet it's a scam,if there are receipts then it's still a scam as the law as far as I know has not been changed or has it?

[DrTuner]

47 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

Tourists, i agree. But retired is under others. And others is not listed as exempted. Do you have a newer paper than i? (1.pdf)

Ah, I must've missed that. I was referring to the paper you gave and comments to it. Retirees were added to the "others" in 1997, according to the other papers you had, what year was that 1.pdf again?

[ThomasThBKK]

31 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Thanks yes that is a relief.Now to section 38 that does not state that those tourist and retirees are responsible for the reporting of people staying at any form of residence yet I'm hearing reports of people being fined for just that when it is the owners and managers that are required to do the reporting,I would be interested to hear if any fine payments have been issued with receipts.If the answer is no then my bet it's a scam,if there are receipts then it's still a scam as the law as far as I know has not been changed or has it?

Landlord is responsible, except if u have your own place or are registered as the housemaster in the tabiaan baan.

That however doesn,t mean they won't charge you fines instead of your landlord and there's not much you can do about that.

[lkv]

47 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

But why would you? I don't know about you but I provide copious documentation when I enter the Kingdom to establish my bona fides. I see absolutely no reason to do it till the next time my visa comes under consideration.

Well, the current government thinks you would, what that should tell us is up to one's own interpretation.

[FarFlungFalang]

2 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Landlord is responsible, except if u have your own place or are registered as the housemaster in the tabiaan baan.

That however doesn,t mean they won't charge you fines instead of your landlord and there's not much you can do about that.

I think there probably is a lot we can do about it because they are not adhering to the law.

 

 

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified. 

In case the house , dwelling place , or hotel where the alien has stayed under provision of Para.1 is located within the Bangkok area , such notification must be reported to the competent official at the Immigration Division. 

Making notification , in reference to the Para 1 and 2 of this Section , must comply with regulations prescribed by the Director General.

[lannarebirth]

1 minute ago, lkv said:

Well, the current government thinks you would, what that should tell us is up to one's own interpretation.

 

Itdoesn't affect me personally, because 1) I am not currently in the Kingdom and 2) My wife has about 200 best friends on her phone who can sort out just about any obstacle we might encounter. Still, I am empathetic for the people this has caused a problem for. It ain't right!

[Burma Bill]

I have checked the link to the petition website and this is what is stated as of today (Thursday 1 August):-

 

With 2,576 supporters 

We still need 7,424 Supporters

 

No comment!

[FarFlungFalang]

16 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Ah, I must've missed that. I was referring to the paper you gave and comments to it. Retirees were added to the "others" in 1997, according to the other papers you had, what year was that 1.pdf again?

The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as prescribed by the Director General.

     Doesn't "others" still come under Section 34 and thus is exempt?

[schlemmi]

57 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Ah, I must've missed that. I was referring to the paper you gave and comments to it. Retirees were added to the "others" in 1997, according to the other papers you had, what year was that 1.pdf again?

Seems to be we are talking about diferent papers. I Try to clarify.

First: the highest law is the immigration act from 2552. In Thai พระราชบัญญัติคนเข้าเมือง ๒๕๒๒.

In this act is statet at 34 that persons may enter TH for a set of reasons. The last item in this sey is "others" and has to be defined my Ministerial law.

 

Second: The Ministetial law released due to the immigration act. In Thai กฎกระทรวงออกตามดวามในพระราชบัญญัติคนเข้าเมือง...

Here is defined what others means. This section was updated from time to time and actualy covers eg. retired, thai married etc.

 

Third: The rule from the Police, refeted by Article 37 and 38 as

the stuff from the "Director General". The Director General is the อธิบดีกรมตำรวจ. 

He released the paper i uploaded under 1.pdf and its named in Thai ระเบียบกรมตำรวจ 

 

In this paper released in 2522 is exactely written the how to report and the layout of the forms. This paper contains the set of exemptions too. This set is a subset of what is under 34 of the immihration act and does not contains the item others.

If this paper is not substituted by another newer paper than it is still in use and actual law.

 

Do you know about any document that substitutes this one?

 

[DrTuner]

25 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

Seems to be we are talking about diferent papers. I Try to clarify.

First: the highest law is the immigration act from 2552. In Thai พระราชบัญญัติคนเข้าเมือง ๒๕๒๒.

In this act is statet at 34 that persons may enter TH for a set of reasons. The last item in this sey is "others" and has to be defined my Ministerial law.

 

Second: The Ministetial law released due to the immigration act. In Thai กฎกระทรวงออกตามดวามในพระราชบัญญัติคนเข้าเมือง...

Here is defined what others means. This section was updated from time to time and actualy covers eg. retired, thai married etc.

 

Third: The rule from the Police, refeted by Article 37 and 38 as

the stuff from the "Director General". The Director General is the อธิบดีกรมตำรวจ. 

He released the paper i uploaded under 1.pdf and its named in Thai ระเบียบกรมตำรวจ 

 

In this paper released in 2522 is exactely written the how to report and the layout of the forms. This paper contains the set of exemptions too. This set is a subset of what is under 34 of the immihration act and does not contains the item others.

If this paper is not substituted by another newer paper than it is still in use and actual law.

 

Do you know about any document that substitutes this one?

 

No, I don't have any newer documents, unfortunately. If anybody has pleaaaaaase share. 

 

Let me try to put this into timeline .. 

 

1979 (2552) - immigration act

1979 (2552) - Director General's notes, which states the exemptions (1.pdf, which includes the original templates for the current TM28/30/47 forms)

1980 (2523) - Ministerial addition (MG-2523-6-gemaess-GG-2522.pdf) describing having Thai wife/kids & co belonging in the "others" category of 1979 immigration act

1997 (2540) - Ministerial addition (MG-2540-22-gemaess-GG-2522.pdf) describing pensioneers & co belonging in the "others" category of 1979 immigration act

 

What we're missing is another, post 1980 & 1997 Director General's paper, stating that "others" are exempt from the 24h reporting requirement of the immigration act 37 ( 3 ) and ( 4 ).

 

Did I miss something or mess something up?

[schlemmi]

6 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

What we're missing is another, post 1980 & 1997 Director General's paper, stating that "others" are exempt from the 24h reporting requirement of the immigration act 37 ( 3 ) and ( 4 ).

 

Did I miss something or mess something up?

Thats ok. Let me explain one or two personal points of view:

1st. Reporting 37(3)(4) has to br done to the local police. Its nothing for the immigtion. Please read the text precisely.

But local police is stressfree.

 

2nd you could interpret the exemption stuff in 1.pdf

in two slightly different ways. For example tourism.

a.) The reason for entering is tourism (tourist visa, exemp 30 days)

or...

b.) The reason to leave your home and travelling to another

place is for tourism reason.

 

Item b could apply on the cases retired or family etc.

 

[DrTuner]

7 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

1st. Reporting 37(3)(4) has to br done to the local police. Its nothing for the immigtion. Please read the text precisely.

But local police is stressfree.

True, BiB likely can't be bothered and even if they were, unlikely they have any access to immigration database where TM28 notifications should go if they were to be of any use. In short: completely unenforced at the moment. Still, they could make the life of aliens even more difficult by interpreting the rules so "others" must start doing the TM28.

[ChipButty]

Did you guys see that this morning a Farang check into a hotel in BKK and they charged him 100 Baht to complete the TM 30 Thats a new one

[DrTuner]

2 minutes ago, ChipButty said:

Did you guys see that this morning a Farang check into a hotel in BKK and they charged him 100 Baht to complete the TM 30 Thats a new one

Ingenious. Hazard pay for dealing with aliens.

[brewsterbudgen]

Like many things in Thailand, the new TM30 enforcement is annoying, ridiculous and frustrating. But people seem to be getting unnecessarily hysterical about it!

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Arkady]

Actually, according to the 1950 Registration of Aliens Act even permanent residents have to report to the district office when they stay in another province for 7 days or more.  This has to be done within 48 hours of a 7 day stay, i.e. within 9 days of arriving in the new province.  However, I have never heard of anyone doing this, or of any attempts to enforce it.  Obviously, if you actually move to another province or district, you need to report the DO to get your new address in your tabien baan. I did this about 3 months late once and got fined B100.

[schlemmi]

1 hour ago, DrTuner said:

True, BiB likely can't be bothered and even if they were, unlikely they have any access to immigration database where TM28 notifications should go if they were to be of any use. In short: completely unenforced at the moment. Still, they could make the life of aliens even more difficult by interpreting the rules so "others" must start doing the TM28.

They are in duty to foreward it to the statistics department of the imigration. On this way the data will be feed into database. Other reason is to have the local police aware about the local foreigners.