Since Living In Thailand Do You Believe Everthing Is Due To Karma?

[Pepe']

some day you'll die and then that's the end of it, no more no less, for most people that's just too hard to accept, so they believe whatever to avoid the truth ... stupid !

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Stupid?

Who is stupid?

[canuckamuck]

The real question is if there is karma, then where does evil come from?

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Ignorance?

So you are saying either uneducated people are evil, or people who disagree with you are evil.

[Pepe']

The real question is if there is karma, then where does evil come from?

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Ignorance?

So you are saying either uneducated people are evil, or people who disagree with you are evil.

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Ignorance is posed as a question, not a statement.

If your looking foe a fight go somewhere else.

[camerata]

The idea that we have had many, many previous lives and the body will continue to die and take form again as the soul reincarnates into yet another human body, or one of the other species of life.

As Yamantaka mentioned, the Buddhist concept of karma is widely misunderstood among laypeople in Thailand (not to mention in the West!). First, Buddhist karma is intent and action, rather than the result of action (destiny). So one's good intentions/actions lead to a beneficial result in this life or another. And a beneficial result is not something like winning the lottery, it is whatever brings us closer to the end of suffering, i.e. nirvana.

Second, there is no soul to pass from existence to existence in Buddhism. The most common simile used to explain it is that of a candle lit by another candle - the flame is a continuous process but the second candle uses completely different fuel (wax, wick, oxygen molecules) from the first.

The famous Thai monk Buddhadasa taught that the most important point about karma was the effect of our actions on our mind. So we might do something good for someone and they return it with bad, but in knowing we did the right thing we still feel good about it. So in actual fact, we did good and received a beneficial result, but in conventional terms it seemed like we did good and got a bad result.

In Thailand, even among monks, karma is thought to work on a very immediate level. So if a Thai experiences bad luck, he might go and tham-boon at the temple to "top up" his good karma, and expect pretty fast results.

[canuckamuck]

The real question is if there is karma, then where does evil come from?

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Ignorance?

So you are saying either uneducated people are evil, or people who disagree with you are evil.

----------------------------

Ignorance is posed as a question, not a statement.

If your looking foe a fight go somewhere else.

I am not looking for a fight in a mean spirited sort of way; I was attempting to debate your thin and defensive response to my take on Karma.

Mental note: Pepe likes people to affirm his/her opinions. Not those who challenge them.

Sorry for troubling you buddy, no hard feelings

[camerata]

some day you'll die and then that's the end of it, no more no less, for most people that's just too hard to accept, so they believe whatever to avoid the truth ... stupid !

This is the materialist point of view. There is no proof that rebirth doesn't occur and no proof that it does. Better to keep an open mind. Before String Theory came along, who would have thought that the universe might consist of 11 "branes?"

[camerata]

The real question is if there is karma, then where does evil come from?

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Ignorance?

This is correct, according to Buddhism. Bad actions that harm ourselves or others (i.e. what some call "evil") are caused by ignorance. The fact that people do bad things out of ignorance and get bad results lies at the heart of karma. Instead of burning in he11 for all eternity we can drag ourselves out of ignorance, start doing good things and improve our lot.

[canuckamuck]

Evil can arise in ignorance certainly, but those claiming the middle path have no better record in non evil acts. Murder, violence, and theft are found in all cultures. Enlightenment seems to have little effect against man’s inherent selfishness. Tales of misbehaving monks are not less common than misbehaving priests.

The problem of karma is that the self is required to discern and rehabilitate or dump the bad karma by deeds which are judged in some cosmic mystery as either beneficial or harmful to the individual; a fairly ponderous task for an average human. Since there is no scorecard, one must guess their karmic standing. This is very vague position to put your eternal consciousness in. It is better to understand there is good and evil and a God who judges and sees your heart, and then keep your relationships honest.

[Yamantaka]

If I can expand on the previous answers, negative action, what we would call evil, arises not only from ignorance but also from delusion and attachment. These are all tied into the most potent destructive element of all sentient beings, ego.

There are four aspects of Karma: action, intent, object of the action and the results of the action. Each contributes to the Karma acquired, good or bad. The idea is that whatever happens to us, we rejoice. If something good happens to us, we rejoice for obvious reasons. If it's bad, we rejoice at having burned up some negative Karma, and at having the opportunity to practice patience or compassion, rather than reacting in kind.

The real question is, why do I keep capitalizing the word karma?

[autonomous_unit]

I have a materialist point of view, and living in Thailand has not significantly changed it. I do not believe in karma in the sense that the universe is just; I think we wish there was justice but the universe is really unaware and uncaring in its physical laws. Living here has given me a glimpse into what I see as a different cultural approach to coping with this universe and the psychological stresses it entails (belief in karma or fatalism, as opposed to a much more active idealism such as in the US where we like to think we can "make things right" through sheer force of will).

But, I do believe in the underlying ethics of karma, and particularly as it was described earlier in the thread to produce immediate positive results for the person doing good things. Good deeds may or may not elevate you out of your physical environment, but they can elevate your mind to a better place. Thankfully, the result of many people doing good deeds can elevate the society physically and mentally as well.

I also do not believe in good nor evil as existing outside our own preferences and interpretations. I think evil appears within the minds of those who see the evil. The processes or actors "causing" or "doing" the evil might be people who are ignorant of the observers' values, those who are aware but intentionally violating them, or even inanimate processes which cannot be held to be ignorant nor informed.

Unfortunately, humans are still children when it comes to living together and dealing with the different value systems we all bring with us. It is all too easy to decide that our own values are universal and that others are deviant.

[garro]

It is better to understand there is good and evil and a God who judges and sees your heart, and then keep your relationships honest.

Better for you perhaps but not for everyone.

[Yamantaka]

Better for you perhaps but not for everyone.

That is one aspect of Buddhism that greatly appeals to me, there is no one to blame for what happens to me except my own thoughts and actions.

I never could grasp the concept of God and faith. Especially the idea that when something good happens, it is God's blessing, and when something horrific happens, like 40 million children dying every year of preventable diseases and starvation, it is God's plan that we are too ignorant to understand.

[garro]

Tales of misbehaving monks are not less common than misbehaving priests.

I always find this kind of comment very misleading as it not only shows a lack of knowledge about Buddhism but also about Thailand. The majority of Thai men ordain as monks for a period of their lives so it should come as no surprise that some of them misbehave. The majority of men in Christian countries do not ordain as priests/pastors, so there is really no comparison.

[canuckamuck]

Tales of misbehaving monks are not less common than misbehaving priests.

I always find this kind of comment very misleading as it not only shows a lack of knowledge about Buddhism but also about Thailand. The majority of Thai men ordain as monks for a period of their lives so it should come as no surprise that some of them misbehave. The majority of men in Christian countries do not ordain as priests/pastors, so there is really no comparison.

How is this observation misleading? It is quite an obvious comparison to make.

It shows fault on both sides of man’s attempts at devout living; an inability for a man to escape his sin nature on his own. I think a monk’s short term would enhance his ability to live an upright life. Priests / Pastors usually have a long term commitment which of course is doomed to experience some inequity. Fortunately they understand that it is not their works alone that will make a difference, but that their relationship with God allows them to repent and move forward. Fathers forgive their kids when they are truly sorry. No cosmic mystery needed.

[qwertz]

All religion is about control, imposed either from self or from authority. It was recognised a long time ago that without some form of it, there is no basis for peaceful community life and people will simply establish a brutal pecking order in which the strong will rule and the weak will be repressed. I suspect this is why many old and sick people turn to their church for comfort.

[tijnebijn]

I just do not feel to get into this discussion.But I want to note that i really feel equal with the thoughts of Camerata and Garro.When I read the writing I can see myself in it,and to understand things how they are.

I do not know if mentioned but Buddhism is in fact not a religion,it is pfilosofical way of living,it has no God,it has no superior in anything,it is a very rationalistic way of finding how things are,what to do with it and most of get rid of it(suffering).The more you can see things through the more they will say,not making' bad karma'or whatsoever,Buddhism is wisdom so actually a muslim or a devote christian is also a buddhist.I just wish people did not generalise religion in what form,or race,cause is there any difference?Maybe on the outside,but eventual not in the inside.For me everyhing is all and the same,I like buddhism most cause it does not generalise(but the people who practise it as a religion might,it is what people understand from it).It is based on experience ,from a common Like Siddharta(which they treat as a God but isn't),who only just showed the way,which we all experience but with our own experience(and maya),it is also said that you should only follow what you feel is right(ratio),eventually we will understand,and too short to live in one lifetime.

[camerata]

Evil can arise in ignorance certainly, but those claiming the middle path have no better record in non evil acts. Murder, violence, and theft are found in all cultures. Enlightenment seems to have little effect against man’s inherent selfishness. Tales of misbehaving monks are not less common than misbehaving priests.

No one has said that Buddhists have a better record than others and it's way off topic, so let's not pursue it here. Full enlightenment means the end of all selfishness and all "evil" acts. It also means the end of all karma. However, the average monk has not reached enlightenment (which is extremely rare these days) so that isn't particularly relevant either. The point is that according to the Buddhist perspective all of us can improve our lot all the time by seeing things as they really are - that "evil" is driven by ego - and acting accordingly.

The problem of karma is that the self is required to discern and rehabilitate or dump the bad karma by deeds which are judged in some cosmic mystery as either beneficial or harmful to the individual; a fairly ponderous task for an average human. Since there is no scorecard, one must guess their karmic standing. This is very vague position to put your eternal consciousness in.

There is no karmic judge. It's believed to be an impersonal process like the physical laws of nature. There's no need to keep any scorecard. Just do good and it will have a ripple effect on other people and back to yourself.

[jumnien]

"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that's my religion" Abraham Lincoln

[camerata]

Living here has given me a glimpse into what I see as a different cultural approach to coping with this universe and the psychological stresses it entails (belief in karma or fatalism, as opposed to a much more active idealism such as in the US where we like to think we can "make things right" through sheer force of will).

I think there is a big difference between, say, a Western Buddhist coming from a materialist background and someone who was born into a Buddhist culture. Buddhism should not be fatalistic in the sense that "Everything that happens to me is a result of past karma therefore there's no point in trying to change anything." In fact, karma is only responsible for part of our current situation and we can affect the future by what we do now.

From a materialist standpoint it makes no sense to simply accept karma as fact. This idea of religion being the adoption of a specific set of beliefs is a relatively recent development. In ancient India a religion was generally a set of guidelines that enabled people to deal with life/death more easily. For me, karma/rebirth is a hypothesis to be proven and it seems to be a win-win solution. By doing good in this life I'll be happier in this life. If there is a next life, I'll be happier in that one too. It seems a whole lot more satisfying than: "Life's a bitch, and then you die."

Good deeds may or may not elevate you out of your physical environment, but they can elevate your mind to a better place. Thankfully, the result of many people doing good deeds can elevate the society physically and mentally as well.

[Yamantaka]

Or the Buddhist version: Life's a bitch and then you die. Then you're reborn and life's a bitch again and then you die, and so on. Until you get it right.

The biggest problem for westerners and Buddhism seems to be to stop seeing it through "Judeo-Christian tradition" eyes. I've spoken with a lot of friends who don't "get" the premise that Buddhism is not a religion in that sense, that Buddha is not God to Buddhists, and that we don't worship idols and paintings.

For instance, many people were outraged for me when the Taliban blew up those statues of Buddha in Bamian (?). And they even got a little upset me for not being upset!

[camerata]

It seems very few of us answered Pepe's original question. In my case I don't think living in Asia caused me to think much about karma, even though I heard people referring to it all the time. There has been some synchronicity in my life but I never gave that concept much thought either. It wasn't until started reading about Buddhism that I got interested in karma as part of a whole philosophical system.

The Thai expression, "Wain gam!" means something like "Bad karma!"

[autonomous_unit]

Camerata wrote this but I cannot get the quote to work right:

I think there is a big difference between, say, a Western Buddhist coming from a materialist background and someone who was born into a Buddhist culture. Buddhism should not be fatalistic in the sense that "Everything that happens to me is a result of past karma therefore there's no point in trying to change anything." In fact, karma is only responsible for part of our current situation and we can affect the future by what we do now.

I'm not sure how much Buddhism has to do with it. I was referring to the "layman's karma" as mentioned earlier in the thread. I only mean fatalism as how people can try to explain apparently unjust situations with an accounting of bad actions in "past lives", much as other people assume "the will of God" or something like that. I think the underlying issue is that people do not like to consider that maybe unjust things happen for no reason at all, something I accept as reality with my materialist views.

The underlying notion of "doing good is for your own good" appears in many philosophies and religions, and I think even is proven in game theory and economics to be a good strategy in populations. It has a statistical and probabilistic basis, not requiring any judge or accountant. Ironically, I have not found that living in Thailand emphasizes this viewpoint. In fact, I was surprised at first with how much apparent selfishness I saw in the way people act in Bangkok. I think I saw more "good towards strangers" in the US than I have here, though I realize my own experiences are not a statistically sound sampling... I might just be better at evading selfish folk in my own culture.

[Yamantaka]

I agree. Sadly, people in Thailand do not live according to Buddha's teachings any more than people in the states live by Christ's teachings. All talk the talk but few walk the walk.

[camerata]

The underlying notion of "doing good is for your own good" appears in many philosophies and religions, and I think even is proven in game theory and economics to be a good strategy in populations. It has a statistical and probabilistic basis, not requiring any judge or accountant.

Well, yes, but a Buddhist is not supposed to do good with the idea of getting some reward, although a reward might be a side-benefit. Ideally the whole of Buddhist morality is mental cultivation with the aim of diminishing the ego. I think that makes it different from most other religions. And karma in Buddhism is intent as well as action. The karma of the intent as well as the action leads to good or bad results, not just the action alone. That's something else that is a bit different.

[canuckamuck]

Here’s something I would really like to have answered. Every time there is a discussion about Buddhism it starts out with some one making some statement, like Pepe did about karma, which gets punted around a bit and then some actual ‘Buddhists’ show up and explain that Buddhism isn’t this or that, it’s something else. So here is my question: Who put up all of the big Buddhas, and the idols, and the spirit houses, and all the other parafanalia on the mountaintops and in the caves in Thailand, if it wasn’t the Buddhists? Is the majority of the Thai population Buddhist, or is it just the guys on TV that say Buddhism has nothing to do with that stuff?

[garro]

Here’s something I would really like to have answered. Every time there is a discussion about Buddhism it starts out with some one making some statement, like Pepe did about karma, which gets punted around a bit and then some actual ‘Buddhists’ show up and explain that Buddhism isn’t this or that, it’s something else. So here is my question: Who put up all of the big Buddhas, and the idols, and the spirit houses, and all the other parafanalia on the mountaintops and in the caves in Thailand, if it wasn’t the Buddhists? Is the majority of the Thai population Buddhist, or is it just the guys on TV that say Buddhism has nothing to do with that stuff?

This is a common misunderstanding of people not familiar with Buddhism. These statues are not meant as idols in the Christian sense. They symbolise the Buddha's teachings and are intended to remind the person paying respect to the image of these teachings. People paying respect to these images often use it as a means of giving themselves a pep-talk. This is the explanation I have received from many Thais countless times. There are litteraly hundreds of threads devoted to your question on the web if you feel the need to explore futher.

The spirit houses are not connected to Buddhism but to their previous animist beliefs.

[Yamantaka]

That's a good explanation. Statues and other images of Buddhas are merely reminders of what has hopefully been learned. The respect paid to them is not for the image but for the teachings that have been received. They were surely provided by Buddhists and most of the population of Thailand are Buddhists by birth, but most have taken very few Buddhist teachings.

[canuckamuck]

This is a common misunderstanding of people not familiar with Buddhism. These statues are not meant as idols in the Christian sense. They symbolise the Buddha's teachings and are intended to remind the person paying respect to the image of these teachings. People paying respect to these images often use it as a means of giving themselves a pep-talk. This is the explanation I have received from many Thais countless times. There are litteraly hundreds of threads devoted to your question on the web if you feel the need to explore futher.

So all that incense and fruit and red fanta offered up to the statues, and the bowing and the ringing the bells; that is all part of respecting what was taught? Were they taught that statues like red fanta and lychees?

If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it might be a duck.

[tijnebijn]

That's a good explanation. Statues and other images of Buddhas are merely reminders of what has hopefully been learned. The respect paid to them is not for the image but for the teachings that have been received. They were surely provided by Buddhists and most of the population of Thailand are Buddhists by birth, but most have taken very few Buddhist teachings.

I agree with you ,it's a pitty really.Most of the people where I come from got the idea that people in Thailand or buddhist countries in general are so peaceful and understanding,the reality is different,although some things in there automatic beliefs(from birth it is told them you are this or that)do give them a very kindly appeal and way of goin.The reality turns out that they are not so unmaterialistic as their belief should make them feel,we are human thats why,so who you can blame for that.....

To anwer the question from the OP,yes sure I was allready understanding Karma before I got in Thailand.Personally I give some thoughts a swift Uturn,cause how some things are explained just not seem directly (like karma explained by some)to be true,st least that is mine inner understanding.Some thing are like this or that,but when turned around the wheel of life,it is just not like how people could tell me in words,got to do it yourself,find it out,we are doing it allready,the most of us just no have a clue....

This is called the mysterie of life not?Words just do not make me come more far,it only frustrates,in buddhist talk ,suffering and making Karma.... Good or bad is just a fiction,is there any,I do not think so,good or evil is just a reflection of our human nature,I do not worrie too much about karma,better should relax and let things come and go how they are,most easy with not much to think about enough for now.

[tijnebijn]

This is a common misunderstanding of people not familiar with Buddhism. These statues are not meant as idols in the Christian sense. They symbolise the Buddha's teachings and are intended to remind the person paying respect to the image of these teachings. People paying respect to these images often use it as a means of giving themselves a pep-talk. This is the explanation I have received from many Thais countless times. There are litteraly hundreds of threads devoted to your question on the web if you feel the need to explore futher.

So all that incense and fruit and red fanta offered up to the statues, and the bowing and the ringing the bells; that is all part of respecting what was taught? Were they taught that statues like red fanta and lychees?

If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it might be a duck.

This the thi people do themselves,my wife also things it is absurt.Certainly the Buddhist spirit did not ask for that.The contrary in fact,this only reflects how they not understand the teachings,they think only monks are good for that.It is all a big show ofcourse,if you mean this.But this has nothing to do what the Buddhist teachings means,look at the Tibetans,so much wisdom they also have their things,it is Asia look around you,they like(humans)to adorise something,to make them feel better.Instead they better should live the budhist life then to worrie to make the local temple shined up.But on the other way I enjoy how Thais do it,could say their culture,it is up to them really.