Since Living In Thailand Do You Believe Everthing Is Due To Karma?

[garro]

Sorry Guesthouse but......the path advocated by the Buddha is not something too be 'studied over many years'. It is a way of approaching life that needs to be followed.

Thanks for appointing yourself as the arbiter of what my approach to Buddhism should be. It seems I, and many others, have been laboring under the misunderstanding that we are allowed to approach Buddhism as we ourselves wish.

As I have stated, I have indeed studied Buddhism for many years, but as indicated I have also studied other religions and philosophies. I have a personal interest in Moral Philosophy, something I have taken a great deal of interest in all my adult life, I would say all my 'reasoning life'.

If I may correct your misunderstanding of the reason why the teachings of the Buddha were not recorded in writing for over 600 years. This had nothing to do with the merits of study versus the merits of following the teachings, and every thing to do with the transition of the cultures where Buddhism was practiced moving from the Oral Tradition to the Written Tradition.

The same can be seen in the shift of Greek Culture where, for example 'Thucydides' 'Homer' et al, record oral tradition for the fist time. – Like Buddhism the record was within an oral tradition and then when written culture arose, the oral record was transcribed.

There is a whole branch of theological study that examines the impact of recording oral traditions (but that is an aside)

This brings me to beg license, for myself and others, to continue perhaps the longest existing area of academic study – “Theology” and one of its core areas of interest ‘The Comparative Study of Religion, Ethics and Morals’.

You perhaps may wish to consider that giving permission for others to study Buddhism within Theological Study may undermine as baseless your statement that study without practice provides only a superficial understanding (I would however, accept that of practice without study).

As for refuting the relationship between Karma and its encouragement of passivity, you’re going to have to do better than say what you believe Karma should be, you are certainly going to have to do better than trying to rubbish my thoughts on Buddhism with childish references to Buddhism 101. You have the reality of Thai culture in front of you and a huge raft of theological study on the relationship between Karma and Passivity, much of it by some of the world’s leading Buddhist scholars.

Or, it might be easier to accept that you can approach Buddhism as you wish, and others can approach Buddhism as they wish. Pass on the need to tell others what Buddhism is, shall we say, remove your attachment.

It is up to you how you decide to approach Buddhism or anthing else. I am merely pointing out that the Buddha advocated a way of practice not study. I am sure that your studies would have surely brought you in contact with the Kalama sutta as it is a very popular;

"Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias toward a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them.

BTW, you don't need to agree with my view. I personally don't hold on to views too tightly and I am always open to finding out I am wrong.

[lannarebirth]

Having studdied Budhism for many years, but also other philosphy based religions, in particular 'Stoicism' I'm more impressed with the use of reason to define life's challenges than any extent to which the answer that reason throws up being the true definition of why life is the way it is.

Karma is a concept that fits into the Buddhist explanation of life. It is not necessarily a truth.

I'd recommend reading Seneca's moral essays, and in particualar his essay 'To Lucilius on Providence'

It becomes clear that there are other ways of looking at why things happen in life, equally comforting to those who seak comfort but also equally intelectual and balanced in their reasoning.

To answer the OP's question, I don't believe in Karma and I find the passivity that belief in Karma produces, ie let him suffer because it is his Karma to do so, one of the most disagreable aspects of Thai culture.

Moreover, when I listen to what many people who claim to be Buddhist, but by no means all, have to say about their understanding of Buddhism, I'm left wondering if they are not just picking and choosing a doctrine they feel lets them live the life they want to live rather than looking to see how Buddhism guides them to a particular life.

It is this fitting the religion around the self, and not self into the teachings that I find very strange about many people who claim to have taken up Buddhism - but as I said, by no means all.

I would agree with most of what you've wriiten here, but I'd offer a different explanation for the highlighted area. Buddhists are indeed generally passive, but I think that behavior stems more from the belief in the impermanence of all phenomena (this too, shall pass) than as result of their belief in Karma. As for letting people suffer , because it is there karma to do so; I agree that exists here, but I don't put it down to Buddhism. I believe it is much more tied to Thai (and other Asian) cultures than Buddhism. Buddhism stresses compassion for those who suffer, not rationalised indifference.

Edited March 19, 2007 by lannarebirth

[jumnien]

After 10,000 posts blaming everything in Thailand on Thaksin Shinawatra it's a little late to start attributing everything to karma.

[Yamantaka]

I also studied Comparative Religion at university and read several books on Buddhism in the years after. But it was a very different learning experience taking teachings from lamas or geshes.

[GuestHouse]

It is up to you how you decide to approach Buddhism or anthing else.

Well we've achieved some progress then.

[garro]

It is up to you how you decide to approach Buddhism or anthing else.

Well we've achieved some progress then.

I am very happy that we've achieved some progress

[jumnien]

Yes, progress, not perfection!

[garro]

Yes, progress, not perfection!

No not perfection

[NaiGreg]

No.

I would say more but it may lead me away from the middle path, which is sometimes narrow and hard to see in the fog of self-delusion and desire.

By the way, heard any good Buddhist jokes lately? Check out my signature. It still makes me laugh after all these years. It is so ridiculous it is sublime.

Einstein had good things to say about Buddhism. Google will help you to discover what he said.

[camerata]

The Buddhism I see practised in Thailand might be better described as antiBuddhism.

I doubt Buddhism is much different from other major religions in the sense that the "believers" are structured like a pyramid. At the bottom there is a large number of people who were "born Buddhist" and think of themselves as Buddhist, but are actually non-practising Buddhists. Another layer up we have the people who practise just to the extent necessary to fit in with society. And another layer up we have people who practise enough to make them feel good about themselves, and so on right up to the dedicated practitioners at the top. And in Asia all this is mixed in with other kinds of sacred belief which strictly speaking is animism. In other words, Buddhists are human!

[camerata]

I would postulate that the only true compassionate giving is giving to those for whom you hold the most negative feelings and which present you with no satisfaction for doing so.

I hadn't really thought about this. According to the Dana Sutta the object of giving is quite significant. If that's the case, it wouldn't be logical to give to a bad person. I think the idea is to give to the most worthy people but to give without the slightest wish for reward of any kind.

On the other hand, to avoid a beggar because we don't like his attitude or looks seems to be a serious aversion that isn't easy to overcome.

[camerata]

And here's what the Buddha said about karma and making merit:

"Beings are the owners of their karma, the heirs of their karma; they are molded, formed and upheld by their karma, and they inherit the results of their own good and bad deeds."

"One who makes merit rejoices in this life,

Rejoices in the next,

Rejoices in both worlds.

Seeing one's own pure acts brings joy and delight."

The second quote is a verse from the Dhammapada, which unfortunately seems to be little-known in Thailand.

[Yamantaka]

Maybe I don't read enough.

[Pepe']

And here's what the Buddha said about karma and making merit:

"Beings are the owners of their karma, the heirs of their karma; they are molded, formed and upheld by their karma, and they inherit the results of their own good and bad deeds."

"One who makes merit rejoices in this life,

Rejoices in the next,

Rejoices in both worlds.

Seeing one's own pure acts brings joy and delight."

The second quote is a verse from the Dhammapada, which unfortunately seems to be little-known in Thailand.

-------------------

Thanks Camareta,

Your last post kind of confirms what I thought karma to be.

Can you speak a bit more about this concept of "jit."

[tijnebijn]

I would postulate that the only true compassionate giving is giving to those for whom you hold the most negative feelings and which present you with no satisfaction for doing so.

I hadn't really thought about this. According to the Dana Sutta the object of giving is quite significant. If that's the case, it wouldn't be logical to give to a bad person. I think the idea is to give to the most worthy people but to give without the slightest wish for reward of any kind.

On the other hand, to avoid a beggar because we don't like his attitude or looks seems to be a serious aversion that isn't easy to overcome.

It's called COMPASSION.If we all just do that,not matter what thaught ,no matter what background and no matter what place we stay,no matter whatever you think of,eventually it will go past like a dream........One in all and all in one,it's a simple