section 96 of the Land Code Act ‘as the owner in place of a foreigner’

[ArranP]

Seeking recommendations from foreigners who have had good experience with a legal firms, that;

a) charges reasonable ( as opposed to extortionate ) market rate. 

b) does not ripp off naive foreigners.

c) finishes the job.

 

I wanted to purchase land it my Thai daughters name.  However, girl friend recommended the land be bought in her name to get the planning license, and then transfer into daughters name. Now girl friend is refusing to transfer into daughters name.

 

I have since learnt that :

 If it is deemed that the Thai national acquired the land under section 96 of the Land Code Act ‘as the owner in place of a foreigner’ both the foreigner and the Thai national are liable for fines and even imprisonment

 

 

Girl friend is unable to provide evidence of funds for the purchase, my bank statements show the funds arriving into my bank account.  Therefore, it is not possible for girl friend to claim Land is her personal property, and thus has made an illegal purchase.

 

According to Land Act section 96 / 94, the land now must be disposed of.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by ArranP

[gunderhill]

7 minutes ago, ArranP said:

Now girl friend is refusing to transfer into daughters name.

Id  make her your "ex" asap.

[Beggar]

"I wanted to purchase land it my Thai daughters name.  However, girl friend recommended the land be bought in her name to get the planning license, and then transfer into daughters name. Now girl friend is refusing to transfer into daughters name." 

 

I would not call this girl a friend. But at least she seems to be clever... 

[ukrules]

Did you build on the land yet?

 

No transfer, no building. That's how I would handle it.

[baansgr]

Good and Thai Lawyer is an oxymoron, fees are plucked out the air with no reasoning or charging structure. Your gf owns the land thats it and nowt you can do. Royaly conned as so many are. Dont build anytjing as the gf will just hock the house to the hilt or sell for a pittance....just shows how much she cares about her daughters future and security

[ArranP]

23 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Did you build on the land yet?

 

No transfer, no building. That's how I would handle it.

 

Not yet....   

 

Land Act Section 96 / 94 - Problem for girl friend, as a Thai national buying land, it is necessary

Link ~~> https://www.thaicontracts.com/articles/8-thai-law-isn-t-simple/23-land-ownership-thai-spouse.html

 

i, That the Thai national can prove the money to buy the land, was their personal property.

... or ...

ii, When the money is coming from a foreigner, there is a Land Office procedure that must be followed, where the Thai national and foreigner must declare that the money coming the foreigner is infact the personal property of the Thai national.

 

If neither of these are the case, then a criminal offence has been commited and prosecuted as per the link....

Link ~~> http://www.dol.go.th/Pages/Enforcement-and-Punishment-Measures-in-Land-Holding-as-an-Agent-for-an-Alien.aspx

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by ArranP

[ArranP]

11 minutes ago, baansgr said:

Good and Thai Lawyer is an oxymoron, fees are plucked out the air with no reasoning or charging structure. Your gf owns the land thats it and nowt you can do. Royaly conned as so many are. Dont build anytjing as the gf will just hock the house to the hilt or sell for a pittance....just shows how much she cares about her daughters future and security

 

 

It is a criminal offence against Land Act - Section 96 / 94,  details as per previous post, next said criminal offence is to be reported to the criminal court for prosecution and remedial action.

Edited August 22, 2019 by ArranP

[GarryP]

I hope you did not have your daughter with this girlfriend. Hope you get sorted but it does not sound promising. In the end it may be a matter of are you willing to be subject to the penalty, so that your (ex)girlfriend does not benefit (assuming she is not the mother of your child)? Wouldn't like to have her benefit at your expense in a case like this. Otherwise, you may have to just walk away (probably running would be better). 

[baansgr]

9 minutes ago, ArranP said:

 

 

It is a criminal offence against Land Act - Section 96 / 94,  details as per previous post, next said criminal offence is to be reported to the criminal court for prosecution and remedial action.

The money you gave her was a gift....if an offence was committed, you are equally guilty for providing the funds....what do you want to achieve?....dont feel bad....tens of thousands have lost life savings through property law here...move on and save in a bank in your name for your daughters future.

[ArranP]

18 minutes ago, baansgr said:

The money you gave her was a gift....if an offence was committed, you are equally guilty for providing the funds....what do you want to achieve?....dont feel bad....tens of thousands have lost life savings through property law here...move on and save in a bank in your name for your daughters future.

 

Hopefully the land will end up in my daughters name, will wait and see.

 

The money was not a gift, nor was it given to her, not did it pass through her bank account.

 

The money trail, originited in UK, transferred to a thai bank account in my name ( the foreigner ), and then transfered onto the vendor.

 

She is unable to evidence the money is her personal property, therefore it was necessary for her and me,  to certify to the Land Office, that the money coming from my bank account, was in fact her personal property, which we did not do.  Whilst I was unaware there was this precdure to follow at the Land Office, it is still a criminal offence,  her on 2 counts and myself on 1 count, have committed and punishable under Thai Law. 

 

Link ~~> http://www.dol.go.th/Pages/Enforcement-and-Punishment-Measures-in-Land-Holding-as-an-Agent-for-an-Alien.aspx

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by ArranP

[jackdd]

You want to risk getting banned from Thailand just to take the land away from her?

[ArranP]

7 minutes ago, jackdd said:

You want to risk getting banned from Thailand just to take the land away from her?

 

You think it might come to that ? wanting to purchase land in daughters name, but gf say put it in my name first then transfer to daughter later.  Having no knowledge of this procedure at the Land Department.  Bit harsh to be banned from Thailand, if so probably not indefinitely. 

 

Langkawi is a similar island to Koh Lanta, a bit bigger, only a couple of hundred kilomters south from here, but not in Thailand, in Malaysia.

[jackdd]

14 minutes ago, ArranP said:

You think it might come to that ?

I don't know what will happen, but obviously you commited the same crime as your girlfriend, and if you try to get her prosecuted for it she will do the same with you. From what you posted above it looks like a jail term is possible, so if you really push this there is a chance (i don't know how high this chance is, but even if it's just 5%, do you want to take it?), that you end up in a Thai jail for a while and upon release you will be deported and banned from Thailand.

[ArranP]

5 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I don't know what will happen, but obviously you commited the same crime as your girlfriend, and if you try to get her prosecuted for it she will do the same with you. From what you posted above it looks like a jail term is possible, so if you really push this there is a chance (i don't know how high this chance is, but even if it's just 5%, do you want to take it?), that you end up in a Thai jail for a while and upon release you will be deported and banned from Thailand.

Jail is the better option and that behind me, than her having a continued levy to meddle with my business affairs as I construct an accommodation business for the kids.   I can't work with that kind of interruption, it just wouldn't be able to get on.

Edited August 22, 2019 by ArranP

[gunderhill]

9 hours ago, Beggar said:

But at least she seems to be clever.

Id  say  more  greedy / selfish than clever, clever  would  be to transfer it and stay with a  decent  bloke, but as usual short  term and no foresight rules the day with many in Thailand

[LukKrueng]

22 hours ago, ArranP said:

I wanted to purchase land it my Thai daughters name.  However, girl friend recommended the land be bought in her name to get the planning license, and then transfer into daughters name. Now girl friend is refusing to transfer into daughters name.

1. What does the planing license have to do with whom the land is registered under?

2. Buy in your gf's name - pay transfer fee. Than transfer to daughters' name - pay transfer fee AGAIN. Can't see any advantage in that.

3. If your daughter is under 20, once registered in her name you can't sell or mortgage the land (not sure about leasing it out) without a court order which will not be easy to get.

 

As for your last comment about "better go to jail" - I can't see how that + losing your land will help with constructing an accommodation business for the kids. If both you and your gf are in jail - who will take care of the kids?

[ArranP]

 

1 hour ago, LukKrueng said:

1. What does the planing license have to do with whom the land is registered under?

Absolutely nothing, against what she has told me, it is not necessary for the Thai national holding the land be the same person as applying for the planning license, in fact, it a foreigner can apply for the planning license.

 

1 hour ago, LukKrueng said:

As for your last comment about "better go to jail" - I can't see how that + losing your land will help with constructing an accommodation business for the kids. If both you and your gf are in jail - who will take care of the kids?

The childrens Mother will take care of the kids.

 

Its not my land, whilst technically she is holding the land, it is not her land either, as she has not used her personal property to purchase it. 

 

It is my personal property that has been used to purchase the land, which is a criminal offence under the Land Act, and thus girl friend will be forced by the Land Act, to sell the land.  However, for this to happen, the offence must first be reported to the Land Department,  and she and myself must face the charges in a criminal court and serve whatever sentance is given.  I will make it clear to the court, that my intention was to gift the money to my daughter ( who is a Thai national ) and her buy the land in her name.

 

To reclaim the money ( used to purchase the land ), it will require a civil action via the civil court, to seize her land, cash assets to the amount that was used to purchase the land, and re-imburse me. 

 

It is either that, or I sit idly by and do nothing, I myself am not one to sit around doing nothing...  Arbitration ( civil and legal ) is there for a reason and thus is intended for such circumstances as this. 

 

Let things like this go by and people start to think they can take without consequence.

 

  

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by ArranP

[LukKrueng]

4 hours ago, ArranP said:

 

Absolutely nothing, against what she has told me, it is not necessary for the Thai national holding the land be the same person as applying for the planning license, in fact, it a foreigner can apply for the planning license.

 

The childrens Mother will take care of the kids.

 

Its not my land, whilst technically she is holding the land, it is not her land either, as she has not used her personal property to purchase it. 

 

It is my personal property that has been used to purchase the land, which is a criminal offence under the Land Act, and thus girl friend will be forced by the Land Act, to sell the land.  However, for this to happen, the offence must first be reported to the Land Department,  and she and myself must face the charges in a criminal court and serve whatever sentance is given.  I will make it clear to the court, that my intention was to gift the money to my daughter ( who is a Thai national ) and her buy the land in her name.

 

To reclaim the money ( used to purchase the land ), it will require a civil action via the civil court, to seize her land, cash assets to the amount that was used to purchase the land, and re-imburse me. 

 

It is either that, or I sit idly by and do nothing, I myself am not one to sit around doing nothing...  Arbitration ( civil and legal ) is there for a reason and thus is intended for such circumstances as this. 

 

Let things like this go by and people start to think they can take without consequence.

 

  

 

 

 

 

So you are willing to risk 2 years in a Thai prison... And while in prison you hope you can sue her in civil court for the funds she got from the land... 

What if she gifts the land to someone for no money? there will be nothing to sue for. Does she have any other assets you can go for in case she sells the land but claims she spent it all already?

[ArranP]

15 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

So you are willing to risk 2 years in a Thai prison... And while in prison you hope you can sue her in civil court for the funds she got from the land... 

What if she gifts the land to someone for no money? there will be nothing to sue for. Does she have any other assets you can go for in case she sells the land but claims she spent it all already?

 

As opposed to doing nothing ?  What other choice(s) do I have other than doing nothing... 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by ArranP

[GarryP]

1 hour ago, ArranP said:

 

As opposed to doing nothing ?  What other choice(s) do I have other than doing nothing... 

 

 

I do not for a minute believe that you would be sentenced to imprisonment. If everything is made clear to the court that the purchase was for your daughter and her future and that you girlfriend deliberately mislead you, resulting in misappropriation of property, the court is more likely to side with you. At worst a fine but I do not believe the land will be taken from you. More likely your ex-girlfriend will be bound to transfer the land to your daughter as originally intended. 

 

However, what you do need to look into is whether a fine or any kind of ruling against you would have an impact in getting visas for Thailand for yourself. 

[ArranP]

10 minutes ago, GarryP said:

I do not for a minute believe that you would be sentenced to imprisonment. If everything is made clear to the court that the purchase was for your daughter and her future and that you girlfriend deliberately mislead you, resulting in misappropriation of property, the court is more likely to side with you. At worst a fine but I do not believe the land will be taken from you. More likely your ex-girlfriend will be bound to transfer the land to your daughter as originally intended. 

 

However, what you do need to look into is whether a fine or any kind of ruling against you would have an impact in getting visas for Thailand for yourself. 

 

My sentiment also.

[LukKrueng]

6 hours ago, ArranP said:

 

As opposed to doing nothing ?  What other choice(s) do I have other than doing nothing... 

 

 

When taking an action one should consider the consequences - time in jail vs the cost of the land

 

4 hours ago, GarryP said:

I do not for a minute believe that you would be sentenced to imprisonment. If everything is made clear to the court that the purchase was for your daughter and her future and that you girlfriend deliberately mislead you, resulting in misappropriation of property, the court is more likely to side with you. At worst a fine but I do not believe the land will be taken from you. More likely your ex-girlfriend will be bound to transfer the land to your daughter as originally intended. 

 

However, what you do need to look into is whether a fine or any kind of ruling against you would have an impact in getting visas for Thailand for yourself. 

According to all the laws @ArranP showed in his earlier posts it seems he broke the law by using a proxy to buy land. How can he prove his intentions were to gift the land to his daughter while he actually registered it under his gf's name? It all sums to "he said - she said". I think the only way he can get out of the criminal case is by saying he gifted the land to the gf, but then he has no claim over it... Kinda catch 22 situation. 

[ArranP]

7 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

When taking an action one should consider the consequences - time in jail vs the cost of the land

 

According to all the laws @ArranP showed in his earlier posts it seems he broke the law by using a proxy to buy land. How can he prove his intentions were to gift the land to his daughter while he actually registered it under his gf's name? It all sums to "he said - she said". I think the only way he can get out of the criminal case is by saying he gifted the land to the gf, but then he has no claim over it... Kinda catch 22 situation. 

 

Understood.

 

[ArranP]

.

Edited August 23, 2019 by ArranP

[ArranP]

 

 

 

7 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

When taking an action one should consider the consequences - time in jail vs the cost of the land

 

According to all the laws @ArranP showed in his earlier posts it seems he broke the law by using a proxy to buy land. How can he prove his intentions were to gift the land to his daughter while he actually registered it under his gf's name? It all sums to "he said - she said". I think the only way he can get out of the criminal case is by saying he gifted the land to the gf, but then he has no claim over it... Kinda catch 22 situation. 

 

On 8/22/2019 at 5:45 PM, ArranP said:

 

She is unable to evidence the money is her personal property, therefore it was necessary for her and me,  to certify to the Land Office, that the money coming from my bank account, was in fact her personal property, which we did not do.  Whilst I was unaware there was this precdure to follow at the Land Office, it is still a criminal offence,  her on 2 counts and myself on 1 count, have committed and punishable under Thai Law. 

 

Link ~~> http://www.dol.go.th/Pages/Enforcement-and-Punishment-Measures-in-Land-Holding-as-an-Agent-for-an-Alien.aspx

 

 

 

 

 

[ArranP]

7 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

When taking an action one should consider the consequences - time in jail vs the cost of the land

 

According to all the laws @ArranP showed in his earlier posts it seems he broke the law by using a proxy to buy land. How can he prove his intentions were to gift the land to his daughter while he actually registered it under his gf's name? It all sums to "he said - she said". I think the only way he can get out of the criminal case is by saying he gifted the land to the gf, but then he has no claim over it... Kinda catch 22 situation. 

 

Whilst in this case, I unknowingly did commit a criminal offence when girl friend recommended, and did purchase land in her name with my peronal property, as stated by her to get a building license, and then later she will transfer to daughters naem.  Both girl firend and myself must serve whatever sentance is handed down by the court. 

 

When girl friend unduely enriches herself by taking the my personal property.  I should also consider the consequences of standing idly by and do nothing, is thus sending girl friend the wrong message, she can unduely enrich herself by taking my property as her personal property whilst suffering no consequence.  

 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by ArranP

[ArranP]

7 minutes ago, vinniekintana said:

 

Is your 'daughter' actually yours or your gf's daughter from a previous husband?

 

Daughter is my eldest child from a previous wife.

 

I have 4 children, 2 with previous wife, and 2 with girl friend.

 

In my will each child will get 25% of my estate. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by ArranP

[brianthainess]

How old is the daughter now ? 

[ArranP]

1 minute ago, brianthainess said:

How old is the daughter now ? 

11

[Pilotman]

On 8/22/2019 at 8:17 PM, ArranP said:

 

You think it might come to that ? wanting to purchase land in daughters name, but gf say put it in my name first then transfer to daughter later.  Having no knowledge of this procedure at the Land Department.  Bit harsh to be banned from Thailand, if so probably not indefinitely. 

 

Langkawi is a similar island to Koh Lanta, a bit bigger, only a couple of hundred kilomters south from here, but not in Thailand, in Malaysia.

You have been incredibly naive all through this process, in trusting your gf and in not getting proper legal advice from a reputable, if probably expensive, law firm.  Your options are now very limited and it looks to me like you must walk away from it and her and start again. You have learnt a valuable lesson in Thailand, trust nobody, unless you really do know them and even in that case, go cautiously and protect yourself legally at each turn. Good luck.