How Does Heat/humidity Affect The Longetivity Of A Structure.

[samran]

Here is one for the bulding pro's.

I was reading about construction techniques in Dubai (of all places).

One thing that was mentioned was that heat and humidity can cause the life expectancy of structures to decrease by about 25%. The passage also went on to say that 'some' things can be done to alleviate this problem. One thing that was mentioned was outside surfaces which can reflect the heat more efficiently.

That was Dubai, where you'd assume they'd have some spot on 'western' standards for these things.

Now.....come 3000 miles east to a city I love, BKK, which is a hot and humid place.

1) If what is said is true (and taking into account the slighly shoddy practices here), what is the reasonable life expectency of a new built condo structure?

2) What can you easily look for in a structure to know that the complex you may be buying into won't stand the test of time (say 50 - 70 years min - is this too much to expect?).

3) What other measures should I look for in a building that would indicate that they've thought about the heat/humidity problem?

Cheers in advance.

[lingling]

Of course that depends on what material you are talking about. But in general:

1) Rust protection of steel seems to be an unknown concept here. Yes, they blat on some oxide paint here and there but noone seems to have a clue that the steel need to be covered with an evenly thick layer according to the paint manufacturer's spec. We just had some idiots use five times as much paint as needed on a steel structure, and there are still a lot of "missed" areas, half painted welds etc. In other words, some parts have a very thick layer of oxide primer that will flake and fall off. Other parts are completely un-protected and will need to be repainted.

2) Steel reinforcement in concrete structures is often allowed to stick out or touch the edges of the form. The result is tons of opportunities for it to rust resulting in a weaker structure a few years down the line.

3) Steel reinforcement in concrete beams and pillars "bundled together" instead of placed where it should be. Waste of steel and results in pillars and beams with a different strength than they were designed for.

4) Substandard concrete mix is commonplace. Take a sample when it is delivered, have it tested and raise hel_l if what was delivered is not what was agreed. (it never is so always order stronger concrete than you need and then use the )

5) bricks (not used in any 'real' buildings anymore I hope), cement blocks and lightweight concrete blocks are of a different standard than in Europe. The red bricks are often not burnt enough so a bit of rain will wash them away. The cement blocks... well, hit one softly with a hammer and you will know. Stepping on them is often enough to break them. Lightweight concrete... a lot more brittle than any lightweight concrete I came across elsewhere. In fact, some construction material suppliers refuse to deliver "Q-con" because they will break too many during delivery.

In short, substandard materials and shoddy workmanship is probably a bigger threat to any building here than the climate. If you want to see a prime example, go and check out the new condo tower at the corner of Sukhumvit and Suk. soi 42. (right next to the Ekamai BTS station and the Ekamai bus terminal). I often watch that place in amazement, wondering where the engineers are.

[lingling]

A couple of other factors:

- BKK air is very corrosive compared to the air out in the sticks thanks to all the NOx SO3 etc from engine exhaust.

- Dubai air is probably equally corrosive thanks to the salt content.

- Dubai construction workers are from South and South East Asia, so I don't expect the workmanship there to be of a much higher standard than here. But maybe the construction companies there found out that the buyers can be fooled by blaming shoddy work on the climate...

- Much of the paint used here is either sub standard, incorrectly used and or inappropriate for the climate. One scary example is when acrylic paint is used on good quality hardwood that will then deteriorate in no time at all.

[samran]

so thinking long term...20-30 years. Buy a house instead of a condo? By the sounds of it, buying into a condo project isn't going to guarantee that the building will be standing in 30 years time??

[lingling]

2) What can you easily look for in a structure to know that the complex you may be buying into won't stand the test of time (say 50 - 70 years min - is this too much to expect?).

50-70 years sounds long for any building here. Especially if built on land with a 30 year lease... Also take into account Bangkok's elevation over the mean ocean level today and expected elevation in 50-70 years.

3) What other measures should I look for in a building that would indicate that they've thought about the heat/humidity problem?

Start with ventilation. Is _everything_ ventilated properly? Over/under pressure? Just about every building here is under-pressurized. I am sure there is some good reason for this, but logically it is only great in cold climate but not so good in hot climate, and worse in hot climate with polluted air.

Insulation - is it at all insulated? Single/double glass windows?

In what direction is the building aligned? To catch as much solar heat as possible? That is good feng shui according to some Chinese who have been here for many generations and still haven't figured out that the climate is different than in Beijing, but if you are not into feng shui you may not want to live in a greenhouse.

[lingling]

so thinking long term...20-30 years. Buy a house instead of a condo? By the sounds of it, buying into a condo project isn't going to guarantee that the building will be standing in 30 years time??

My recommendation would be: buy land, then build a house. Don't buy a ready built new house in some mooban. Most or many ready houses are plagued with the same problems as condos and they are way, way overpriced if you look at the cost of land, materials and labor costs. Those things are still very cheap here compared to the west even if the standard of materials and workmanship is such that someone to keep a very close eye on workers, check delivered materials etc. Not to mention that things must be redone every now and then. This is no problem if it can be redone while work is in progress - but it will be a huge problem if things need to be corrected after the house is finished. (take my earlier example of rust protection of steel - it is very easy to rust protect a steel structure before any other parts of the building is in place, but you can not do it when the building is finished)

Anyway, land will not lose value over the long term (unless it is located in or near Nong Ngu Hao, Bang Khuntien or other areas that may be ocean floor in 30 years ). If you build yourself you can keep an eye on the progress, and for day-to-day things hire a good engineer to oversee the work and keep the workers "in line".

[chownah]

Does anyone know the age of some of the older condos in Bangkok? and does anyone know if condos today are built using the same methods...or if methods have improved?

[samran]

Thanks for all the answers so far. Very, very interesting.

Does anyone know the age of some of the older condos in Bangkok? and does anyone know if condos today are built using the same methods...or if methods have improved?

This was actually a follow up question I have. A lot of the older buildings (they look like they were built in the 60's or 70's) appear to be more 'solidly' built.

I've seen a few around, and the tend to have much larger living areas (at least 200m sq). Property wise, I've always been attracted to the idea of gutting one and refurbishing the inside. I guess this was the motivation for my question.

[thaigene2]

Excellent thread and replies thanks Samran and lingling..

[thaigene2]

Does anyone know the age of some of the older condos in Bangkok? and does anyone know if condos today are built using the same methods...or if methods have improved?

Was thinking same thing - but I've seen ten year old places that looked very good - low rise too (in fact especially low risees - which are now in vogue anyway). Guess it depends on whether they used quality stuff or did a dirty on 'saying' they used abc 1 but used abc 2 stuff instead (then used the money to build a nice joint in Hua Hin for their family..)

[quiksilva]

Some condo's here date back to the mid-late 1980's but very few are older than that. Certainly older projects tend to have higher ceilings and larger unit sizes etc but many lack even minimal fire and safety systems. Sprinkler systems for example were not required 20ish years ago, fire escapes may also be insufficient and are more likely to be unpressurised allowing smoke to enter impeding escape, and even helping a fire to move freely to other floors in the tower.

Also expect long wait times for lifts in older high-rise properties due to inadequate provision of lift cars and little if any seperation of lift zones ( low / mid / high zones). Although not a concern if you are looking at low rises (less than 7 floors) perhaps.

Most of these buildings from the '80's are the ones you would think date back to the 70's but due to property management standards being what they are, (and perhaps humidity affecting exterior paintwork) they look much older.

They also tend to use space inefficiently with higher gross to net sellable space ratios. This has become more important in recent times as land values have increased alot since those days so new construction techniques were applied to keep costs down, and to maximise sellable area without sacrificing strength.

Properties with columns are arguably stronger but under normal circumstances modern curtain wall construction is perfectly adequate. The exception to this however is should something tremendously drastic happen that would cause a floor and external wall to break which is not easy but as unfortunately happened with the Twin Towers in NYC, where the loss of structural integrity from impact and fire damage to reinforcement in the floor and external walls caused the affected floors to collapse and tragically concertina into the ones below.

When looking at entire buildings we apply a depreciation rate in the region of 2-5% pa. depending on the property type, grade of finishing, the standard of property management et al

Condo's may fall somewhere in the middle of that range with an approximate building lifetime in the region of 30 years. Thats not to say that it will fall down in 30 years but it would certainly need refurbishment and reinvestment to extend its useful life. Hence the need for sinking funds.

[samran]

Thanks Quicksilva.

Just a couple of clarfications.

They also tend to use space inefficiently with higher gross to net sellable space ratios. This has become more important in recent times as land values have increased alot since those days so new construction techniques were applied to keep costs down, and to maximise sellable area without sacrificing strength.

Is this code for " we only build shoeboxes with tiny hallways these days and charge a premium for them?"

Condo's may fall somewhere in the middle of that range with an approximate building lifetime in the region of 30 years. Thats not to say that it will fall down in 30 years but it would certainly need refurbishment and reinvestment to extend its useful life. Hence the need for sinking funds.

So what should one look for in a sinking fund, that x% exists in it, or something else? What you are also saying (I think) is that something built in the 80's (which is my target given their bigger rooms) may only have an effective life of 10-15 years from today?

Also, what do you as a trend in coming years, that people will still like new builds or that refurbisments will be become increasingly common?

[GuestHouse]

Those of you who have been living in Bangkok, Pattaya and any other place that had its building boom halted by the ecconomic crisis of the 90s will be able to look at buildings that stood half constructed for almost ten years, and have now been restarted and are being sold as prime property.

Ten years of being open to the elements, humididity, insects and rust taking its toll.

Caveat Emptor.

[quiksilva]

Q 1

Yeah I like that, you got me, its a fair cop guv!! lol

Its true though. (oh and Im not a developer )

Q2

Typically sinking funds are one off payments in the region of 300-600 Baht per square meter. Sinking funds are there to be spent, albeit spent responsibly, i.e. for replacing lift cables, exterior painting or some other such necessary expense / improvement. Perhaps fire and safety system improvements or even in some special cases common part refurbs to add investment value etc.

Sinking funds can however only be used after a majority vote has been passed at an EGM. Ideallly once the expense has been made, the responsible building manager will request a top-up shortly afterwards.

Q3

Given the the fact that there is a very limited amount of new development sites left in prime locations I am sure that we will see increasingly more refurbs and project repositioning as time goes on.

However, I think that refurbs only work here when the whole building has been given the once over, rebranded and relaunched given local's reluctance to buy secondhand, but I believe that the Thai's can get past this mental stumbling block and commit to it as long as it is in a prime location, and the job has been done convincingly well.

The tough part is getting all the co-owners to agree to part with the cash needed to do it, which is why you more commonly see this happening in apartments, hotels and office buildings. If only co-owners could see the value in it...

[PhilHarries]

Of course that depends on what material you are talking about. But in general:

1) Rust protection of steel seems to be an unknown concept here. Yes, they blat on some oxide paint here and there but noone seems to have a clue that the steel need to be covered with an evenly thick layer according to the paint manufacturer's spec. We just had some idiots use five times as much paint as needed on a steel structure, and there are still a lot of "missed" areas, half painted welds etc. In other words, some parts have a very thick layer of oxide primer that will flake and fall off. Other parts are completely un-protected and will need to be repainted.

One thing to remember is, like a house is only as good as it's foundations, a coating system (paint) is only as good as the surface preparation of the substrate. At the very least the surface should be wire brushed and free from moisture, oil/grease and dust. Any previous coating should be brushed over and any flaking areas cleaned back and recoated with primer. Paint should not be applied any thicker than recommended by the manufacturer and, particularly in hot climates, several thin coats is better than one thick one.

In the oil & gas industry we grit blast clean steel structures to a specified profile to give the paint as good an anchorage as possible. That's in a very aggressive environment and a bit over the top for domestic applications. But the principle is the same and you are right in being concerned at the slapdash approach used.

The big thing I notice about buildings in Thailand is that they seem to be on a build and forget (the outside) basis. Very rarely, particularly with condos, do you see evidence of routine maintenance of the outside of the structure. The end result is that within a few years the building starts to look very shabby.

[stevejones123]

One thing to bear in mind is that steel doesn't like salt, and buildings within a couple of kilometers of the sea often have problems with the steel reinforcements rusting.

[Gary A]

Anything has to be better than freezing and thawing. I can easily remember (NOT fondly) my pipes freezing and worrying about the snow load on my roof. A little crack in the concrete fills with water then freezes and when it thaws you have a BIG crack. I really wouldn't worry about the heat and humidity.

[MaiChai]

I think you need to understand the reason why buildings are not as well made here as in other places. Lets say this is a history lesson. In the old days all buildings were made from wood, and wood does not last long in a tropical climate. Thus building were built adequatly and cheaply to last a short period of time (15 years?). Also in some areas, people would dismantle their houses and either move them or rebuild them. Hence not designed to last a long time. This mindset followed on to buildings made of concreate/bricks/steel; the building was built cheaply and to last a short period of time. In alot of places you see buildings flattened and then a new building built. Maybe its a case that the building is out of style or is not suitable for a new purpose and the owner decides to build something modern or suitable.

My view on purchase a property in Bangkok would be to concentrate on getting the land ownership. The quality of the building is not necessarily important. You may choose to refurbish the existing building, or tear it down and build a new one. Maybe a good strategy would be to buy a shabby run down house on a plot of land in a good location?

Lets just say its a different mindset here in terms of how buildings are built.

[wpcoe]

I think you need to understand the reason why buildings are not as well made here as in other places. Lets say this is a history lesson. In the old days all buildings were made from wood, and wood does not last long in a tropical climate. Thus building were built adequatly and cheaply to last a short period of time (15 years?). Also in some areas, people would dismantle their houses and either move them or rebuild them. Hence not designed to last a long time. This mindset followed on to buildings made of concreate/bricks/steel; the building was built cheaply and to last a short period of time. In alot of places you see buildings flattened and then a new building built. Maybe its a case that the building is out of style or is not suitable for a new purpose and the owner decides to build something modern or suitable.

Fascinating perspective.

I've read/heard that Thai owners are not very gung-ho on condo upkeep and maintenance, and that would help explain that mindset.