Northern Ireland's DUP says it cannot support Brexit deal as it stands

[snoop1130]

Northern Ireland's DUP says it cannot support Brexit deal as it stands

By Guy Faulconbridge, Kate Holton

 

DUP leader Arlene Foster speaks at a Bruges Group event during the Conservative Party annual conference in Manchester, Britain, September 30, 2019. REUTERS/Henry Nicholls

 

LONDON (Reuters) - Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s last-ditch attempt to clinch a Brexit deal was thrown into disarray just hours before a European Union summit on Thursday when the Northern Irish party he needs to help ratify any agreement refused to support it.

 

Johnson had set his hopes on convincing EU leaders to agree a compromise deal at the summit, followed by a vote in the British parliament in an extraordinary session on Saturday, to pave the way for an orderly departure on Oct. 31.

 

British and EU negotiators worked through several nights to agree a draft compromise on the Irish border issue, the most difficult part of Brexit, haggling over everything from customs checks to the thorny issue of consent.

 

But the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), which supports Johnson’s government, said it was not acceptable - a step that could spur hardline Brexiteers in his party to also vote against ratification unless he secures additional changes.

 

“As things stand, we could not support what is being suggested on customs and consent issues and there is a lack of clarity on VAT,” DUP leader Arlene Foster and deputy leader Nigel Dodds said in a statement.

 

“We will continue to work with the Government to try and get a sensible deal that works for Northern Ireland and protects the economic and constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom.”

Just two weeks before the latest deadline for the United Kingdom’s departure from the world’s largest trading bloc, Brexit remains uncertain with options ranging from an orderly departure to a chaotic exit or even another referendum that could reverse the entire endeavour.

 

It is unclear what Brexit will ultimately mean for the United Kingdom and the European project - built on the ruins of World War Two as a way to integrate economic power and thus end conflict after centuries of European bloodshed.

 

A Brexit supporter who was the face of the campaign to leave in the 2016 EU referendum, Johnson has repeatedly said he will not ask for a delay though his government also says it will obey the law.

 

Johnson, who has no majority in the 650-seat parliament, needs 320 votes to get a deal ratified. The DUP have 10 votes. The British parliament is due to meet on Saturday in an extraordinary session - the first such meeting since the 1982 Argentine invasion of the Falkland Islands.

 

Sterling slid as much as 0.6% to $1.2748, and also declined 0.5% versus the euro to as low as 86.81 pence, before steadying and recouping some of those losses.

 

EU SUMMIT

 

On the eve of the summit, officials said that almost all of the differences between the two sides had been resolved after marathon talks in Brussels.

 

But any deal must be ratified by the British parliament which has defeated similar deals struck by Johnson’s predecessor, Theresa May, three times.

 

Johnson won the top job by pledging to renegotiate May’s failed agreement, though he is largely recasting that deal with changes to the protocol on how to treat the border between EU member Ireland and the British province of Northern Ireland.

 

The conundrum was how to prevent the frontier becoming a backdoor into the EU’s single market without erecting controls which could undermine the 1998 peace agreement that ended decades of conflict in the province.

 

But unionists such as the DUP - named due to their loyalty to the union of Northern Ireland and Britain - are worried that the EU’s proposals would divide the United Kingdom and trap Northern Ireland in the bloc’s orbit for years to come.

 

Germany’s Europe Minister Michael Roth said he was hopeful that the Brexit talks would yield a result, adding that the chances for reaching an orderly Brexit were higher than one or two weeks ago.

 

“From what I have heard on the Brexit talks, I am encouraged to say this could lead to something,” Roth told public broadcaster BR on Thursday.

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-10-17

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[kingdong]

This whole fiasco is reaching Monty python status,a big thank you from me and every other person suffering from it to Gina miller,and all the mps unwilling to accept democracy.

[SheungWan]

This whole fiasco is reaching Monty python status,a big thank you from me and every other person suffering from it to Gina miller,and all the mps unwilling to accept democracy.

MPs have no responsibility to vote through no-deal Brexit and Gina Miller is totally responsible to assert legal issues in court.

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[Rookiescot]

47 minutes ago, kingdong said:

This whole fiasco is reaching Monty python status,a big thank you from me and every other person suffering from it to Gina miller,and all the mps unwilling to accept democracy.

So vote leave promised we would remain in the single market. People voted based on that. Why are we not staying in the single market? 

Johnson said there would never be a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK but here we are trying to do that.

They lied. Again and again.

There is no mandate for this. 

The leave win has been hijacked by Brexit fundamentalists.

[fishtank]

Not going to get through parliament and a referendum is inevetable. 

As is remain in the EU.

A great day for the UK. ????

 

Ole Bungle has cocked it up once again.

[evadgib]

22 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

MPs have no responsibility to vote through no-deal Brexit and Gina Miller is totally responsible to assert legal issues in court.

Sent from my SM-N935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Parliament won't know what hit it at the next election. 

[JAG]

4 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Parliament won't know what hit it at the next election. 

Which is precisely why they will do everything in their power, absolutely everything, to prevent an election. It is going to be a long, tedious and ultimately wasted two and a half years.

[kingdong]

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

So vote leave promised we would remain in the single market. People voted based on that. Why are we not staying in the single market? 

Johnson said there would never be a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK but here we are trying to do that.

They lied. Again and again.

There is no mandate for this. 

The leave win has been hijacked by Brexit fundamentalists.

people voted lib dems when they promised to get rid of student loans and tuition fees and when they got in on coalition welshe d on it

[SheungWan]

Parliament won't know what hit it at the next election. 

You think UKIP might get 1 MP?

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[SheungWan]

Which is precisely why they will do everything in their power, absolutely everything, to prevent an election. It is going to be a long, tedious and ultimately wasted two and a half years.

An election is not being prevented. Outside of scheduled election, the date is within the decision of Parliament and certainly not beholden to hyperventilating Hard Brexiteers. So sorry.

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[englishoak]

N Ireland voted to remain. They are getting what they voted for, in a fashion. The EU wants a united Ireland and its getting what it wants. England voted leave it is getting what it voted for. Scots will want another ref and will get what they vote for. Its called political compromise and that usually means no one gets everything they want.  Boris is doing the reverse of May but still using much of her deal... Deal or leave with no deal.

 

Parliament with its gerrymandering only has itself to blame... Right now either its leave with no deal as a United Kingdom or take the deal and effectively end the Union.

 

Rather Ironic remainers opposing the deal could lead to no deal but retain the Union and leavers supporting the deal will be supporting the defacto end of the United Kingdom. 

 

Now theres a twist. Confused yet ? 

 

 

[SheungWan]

people voted lib dems when they promised to get rid of student loans and tuition fees and when they got in on coalition welshe d on it

No need getting the hots for an election which is unlikely to be scheduled until no-deal Brexit is firmly off the table.

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[SheungWan]

Parliament won't know what hit it at the next election. 

The current Parliament is the one making decisions right now. We'll get back to you.

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[SheungWan]

N Ireland voted to remain. They are getting what they voted for, in a fashion. The EU wants a united Ireland and its getting what it wants. England voted leave it is getting what it voted for. Scots will want another ref and will get what they vote for. Its called political compromise and that usually means no one gets everything they want.  Boris is doing the reverse of May but still using much of her deal... Deal or leave with no deal.
 
Parliament with its gerrymandering only has itself to blame... Right now either its leave with no deal as a United Kingdom or take the deal and effectively end the Union.
 
Rather Ironic remainers opposing the deal could lead to no deal but retain the Union and leavers supporting the deal will be supporting the defacto end of the United Kingdom. 
 
Now theres a twist. Confused yet ? 
 
 

As long as there isn't no-deal Brexit, keep focussed on that.

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[saengd]

Interesting that BoJo and Claude are now in synch and best chums, Claude says no extension will be possible if the current deal is voted down, it's the current deal or no-deal, which would you rather have.....paging Mr Hobson.

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, englishoak said:

Confused yet ? 

He isn't up yet! ????

[kingdong]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

You think UKIP might get 1 MP?

Sent from my SM-N935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Say what you like about ukip,but they bought down a UK prime minister,all remain and their antics are doing is accelerating far right wing politics.

[MRToMRT]

Are they just posturing in order to "sell" their vote on Saturday for some form of economic stimulus package (or similar)?

[englishoak]

1 hour ago, MRToMRT said:

Are they just posturing in order to "sell" their vote on Saturday for some form of economic stimulus package (or similar)?

If you mean the DUP, it could be or maybe not. You have to appreciate the entire and sole reason the DUP exists is to make sure NI stays part of the UK. Its a bit like the Brexit party, take away the sole reason for being and the party ceases to have any relevance. 

 

It would depend on what their true motivations are and if they truly understand where the future is taking them all on the emerald Isle. And that is unification. I dont think many people anymore believe in an indefinite separated Ireland, certainly not in Ireland and not on the mainland other than old die hard unionists and the argument for that is ? well because that's the United Kingdom 4 nations as one... Well thats been changing over the last decade, Scotlands been flexing and has its own powers. Wales has had powers devolved. So does N Ireland until lately. Stormont The Northern Ireland assembly collapsed almost three years ago after a row between the DUP and Sinn Féin and remains suspended. As time moves on the support and case for a united Ireland grows stronger.

 

The DUP dont hold as much influence in NI as they used to and that will continue to errode, will they decided to delay the inevitable again and risk a no deal and leaving without ? in a no deal It will hurt all on that Island the most or will they take the coin one last time from the UK and accept the future trend with grace and retire with a robust and prosperous N I by the time it does unify  ?  they could turn themselves into heroes if they have the vision and foresight. I hope they do.

 

Personally I hope and think they are holding out for some more investment and suspect they will get it if they are, they will no doubt be gauging how the numbers look with or without them and negotiate with the UK gov accordingly. 

 

Interesting few days coming up. 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

A reminder.

 

When PM Harold Wilson sent British Troops to Northern Ireland it was not to combat the IRA/Nationalists.

 

It was to combat the Unionists who were killing Nationalists and Catholics.

 

The DUP objections to this deal are not a small, insignificant matter.

[Proboscis]

14 hours ago, kingdong said:

This whole fiasco is reaching Monty python status,a big thank you from me and every other person suffering from it to Gina miller,and all the mps unwilling to accept democracy.

Without the rule of law, I would not accept democracy. Pure democracy without the rule of law would be terrible - I mean, we could all vote to have you killed. That is why we have the limitations by law on all sorts of things, whatever your views on Brexit or any other issue you care to mention.

[JonnyF]

With the DUP against it, and half of the ERG against it this deal has no chance.

 

As for Juncker saying he won't extend again, he looked drunk again when he said that so it's best ignored. He shouted at a Channel 4 reporter and then wobbled off taking little mini steps with a big guy either side making sure he didn't fall over. It's not his decision anyway.

 

I'm starting to think this deal is meant to fail, then Boris can play whatever card he has up his sleeve to get around the surrender act for No Deal and claim he tried his best but Parliament voted against the deal so they got no deal. I hope I'm right.

 

[englishoak]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

A reminder.

 

When PM Harold Wilson sent British Troops to Northern Ireland it was not to combat the IRA/Nationalists.

 

It was to combat the Unionists who were killing Nationalists and Catholics.

 

The DUP objections to this deal are not a small, insignificant matter.

 

That time was 2 generations ago, I lived through those times and the blowback of the 80s cleaning up bits of bodies in London aftermath attacks thank you. N I is im happy to say a very different place now. 

 

Im not suggesting the DUPs objections are insignificant, im suggesting the trend is towards unification and that will not diminish. Largely helped by Catholicism becoming more and more irrelevant ( its own fault by corruption and scandals ) and Sinn Féin negotiating politically rather than the IRA running about blowing things up. Once 9/11 happened and US funding stopped the shooting and violence subsided, leaving the only and best option of political negotiation. to everyone's credit involved there was a breakthrough.  The importance f good Friday agreement and its achievement cannot be understated.

 

The old and mainly religious excuses for violence dont hold up anymore and thats a good thing. 

 

 

[englishoak]

4 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I'm starting to think this deal is meant to fail, then Boris can play whatever card he has up his sleeve to get around the surrender act for No Deal and claim he tried his best but Parliament voted against the deal so they got no deal. I hope I'm right.

 

 

That of course is entirely possible, but i doubt it, Boris has never been a no dealer but he is on the block and people do the most unusual things for political survival.

[bristolboy]

5 minutes ago, englishoak said:

 

Once 9/11 happened and US funding stopped the shooting and violence subsided, leaving the only and best option of political negotiation. to everyone's credit involved there was a breakthrough.  The importance f good Friday agreement and its achievement cannot be understated.

 

 

???

The agreement is made up of two inter-related documents, both agreed in Belfast on Good Friday, 10 April 1998:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

[englishoak]

16 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

???

The agreement is made up of two inter-related documents, both agreed in Belfast on Good Friday, 10 April 1998:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

My bad structure, I should have had "there was a breakthrough" before 9/11 not after it, sorry about that. No one initially expected the agreement to hold, luckily 9/11 killed off all further funding making political solution that much easier

 

You do realise that shootings and violence from both sides continued well after 98  yes ? https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/the-cruel-peace-killings-in-northern-ireland-since-the-good-friday-agreement Other troublesome Ex IRA members were also neutralised in one manner or another again by both sides.It didnt all just stop. 

 

. 

[JAG]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

A reminder.

 

When PM Harold Wilson sent British Troops to Northern Ireland it was not to combat the IRA/Nationalists.

 

It was to combat the Unionists who were killing Nationalists and Catholics.

 

The DUP objections to this deal are not a small, insignificant matter.

Northern Ireland in the late 1960s and first years of the 1970s was a very different place. You are right, the Army was deployed to protect the Catholic/Nationalist population from the Protestant/Unionist community. But then, the Unionists had almost complete hegemony. Through frankly a gerrymandered local parliament they controlled and deployed an armed politicised police force, with a paramilitary and devotedly sectarian armed reserve force, Industry, jobs, housing, education and even such mundane matters as onto which routes the newer more reliable buses were put to run was controlled by the Unionist regime on a sectarian basis. That changed over the next twenty years. Sectarianism still exists - there are still the red-faced frothy mouthed bigots who feel that it is their noble cultural tradition to stand outside Catholic churches during Mass at certain times of the year, scruffy second hand bandsman's uniforms unable to fasten up over bulging beer bellies, and bang big drums and shout "<deleted> the Pope". I watched their ridiculous performances on many occasions. The other side has many of the same proclivities with their marches.

 

The demographics in the province are changing, there is near parity between the communities. and the current system of government is frankly politically and economically unsustainable. The DUP may well push for more investment - call it a bribe - but they will also be aware that the present peculiar circumstances which leave them holding the balance of power at Westminster will be unlikely to last beyond the next election - especially if, as is likely, that election results from them foiling this deal, and produces a government with a solid majority, either for leave or remain. They will go back to representing a dwindling community of red faced, beer bellied, drum bangers!

 

Any reasonable, sensible, logical approach suggests that the DUP recognises this reality, and engages sensibly with the future of the province. This future must include recognising that the bulk of the island remains part of the EU, and accommodate that fact.

 

But then again, a Northern Irish political party with sectarian roots - reasonable, sensible, logical?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, englishoak said:

 

That time was 2 generations ago, I lived through those times and the blowback of the 80s cleaning up bits of bodies in London aftermath attacks thank you. N I is im happy to say a very different place now. 

 

Im not suggesting the DUPs objections are insignificant, im suggesting the trend is towards unification and that will not diminish. Largely helped by Catholicism becoming more and more irrelevant ( its own fault by corruption and scandals ) and Sinn Féin negotiating politically rather than the IRA running about blowing things up. Once 9/11 happened and US funding stopped the shooting and violence subsided, leaving the only and best option of political negotiation. to everyone's credit involved there was a breakthrough.  The importance f good Friday agreement and its achievement cannot be understated.

 

The old and mainly religious excuses for violence dont hold up anymore and thats a good thing. 

 

 

The excuses where never religious and you are a fool if you think they are not still a matter of grave concern.

[Chomper Higgot]

44 minutes ago, englishoak said:

My bad structure, I should have had "there was a breakthrough" before 9/11 not after it, sorry about that. No one initially expected the agreement to hold, luckily 9/11 killed off all further funding making political solution that much easier

 

You do realise that shootings and violence from both sides continued well after 98  yes ? https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/the-cruel-peace-killings-in-northern-ireland-since-the-good-friday-agreement Other troublesome Ex IRA members were also neutralised in one manner or another again by both sides.It didnt all just stop. 

 

. 

The breakthrough came when the IRA bombed the city of London.

 

An attack which demonstrated where a nation’s weakness is.

 

A point not missed by those who planned and executed 9/11.

 

The attack on the City of London was the precursor of both a settlement in NI and 9/11.

[Chomper Higgot]

21 minutes ago, JAG said:

Northern Ireland in the late 1960s and first years of the 1970s was a very different place. You are right, the Army was deployed to protect the Catholic/Nationalist population from the Protestant/Unionist community. But then, the Unionists had almost complete hegemony. Through frankly a gerrymandered local parliament they controlled and deployed an armed politicised police force, with a paramilitary and devotedly sectarian armed reserve force, Industry, jobs, housing, education and even such mundane matters as onto which routes the newer more reliable buses were put to run was controlled by the Unionist regime on a sectarian basis. That changed over the next twenty years. Sectarianism still exists - there are still the red-faced frothy mouthed bigots who feel that it is their noble cultural tradition to stand outside Catholic churches during Mass at certain times of the year, scruffy second hand bandsman's uniforms unable to fasten up over bulging beer bellies, and bang big drums and shout "<deleted> the Pope". I watched their ridiculous performances on many occasions. The other side has many of the same proclivities with their marches.

 

The demographics in the province are changing, there is near parity between the communities. and the current system of government is frankly politically and economically unsustainable. The DUP may well push for more investment - call it a bribe - but they will also be aware that the present peculiar circumstances which leave them holding the balance of power at Westminster will be unlikely to last beyond the next election - especially if, as is likely, that election results from them foiling this deal, and produces a government with a solid majority, either for leave or remain. They will go back to representing a dwindling community of red faced, beer bellied, drum bangers!

 

Any reasonable, sensible, logical approach suggests that the DUP recognises this reality, and engages sensibly with the future of the province. This future must include recognising that the bulk of the island remains part of the EU, and accommodate that fact.

 

But then again, a Northern Irish political party with sectarian roots - reasonable, sensible, logical?

You have a great deal more faith in the brokers of power on both sides of that mess behaving like civilized human beings than I do.

 

Johnson’ ‘surrender agreement’ represents a very significant loss to Unionist in NI. 

 

He’s playing with fire.