Borehole, Booster Pump And Timer.

[Lickey]

Had the borehole pump pulled out last week, because of intermitant pumping, the problem was low water, brother in law reminded me that it was his pump, and also told me that hole-liner goes down 35meters, but would have to have BH cleaned out with a drilling rig, this was done for 10,000 bht, i bought new Franklin 1hp pump and its down 23 meters, with a 1 year gaurantee of water from drilling crew, because the pump has to propell water about 200 metres before it reaches the 2 5 metre sprinklers, the drilling man told me to put a booster pump in-line, which i have on farm, place it about 50 mtrs from bore pump, which brings me to the next problem, when the sprinklers are working, the water hits the ground and dust or steam? comes up from the splash!!

My latest idea is to fit a timer, so the water comes on at night when the ground is cooler and absorb water better, problem for me is, if i can buy timer, how do i wire it for both pumps to kick in at once, would i need a heavy duty relay ect because of the start up voltage of 2 pumps? the submersible runs at 7.6 amph the other i think is about 4amph, thanks for your help,,,

[chownah]

If you provide the electrictiy for both pumps from one line (one pair of wires) then all you need to do is to use a timer to turn the power on and off for that line....simple really. The hard part might be finding a timer rated for enough current (amps). Most of the control switching I've seen is rated at less than 10 amps and clearly you need more....try a specialty irrigation shop I guess.

Another way to do this is to break the irrigation line at the booster pump and construct a small tank there with a float switch which you use to turn the booster pump on and off. The timer is used only for the first pump while the power to the float switch is always on. This way your timer need only be rated to control your first pump.

Another way to do this is to install a pressure switch on the line near where it enters the booster pump so that the booster pump comes on when the pressure in its feed line is adequate. Again the timer only controls the first pump and the power to the pressure switch is always on. This way your timer need only be rated to control your first pump.

I think the safest way to prevent the failure of one component causing the failure of others is to break the line and use a small tank with a float control. When two pumps are connected in series on one line the failure of one pump can cause the failure of the other from overheating so beware of this possibility. There is a small downside in that breaking the line and using a tank does consume a bit more power this way but I think its minimal. Another way to safeguard against one failure causing another is to use pressure switches to monitor the pressure in the line between the two pumps so that either a too low or too high pressure will shut the system off......this gets complicated and the intermediary tank (break the line and add a small tank near the booster pump) is much simpler....but its up to you ...there are options.

Chownah

Edited March 26, 2007 by chownah

[RamdomChances]

I'd put in a large header tank, mines about 12 cubic meters made of 2 meter concrete rings, you can then fill the header tank and pump direct from there, you'll probaly find a 2 hp booster pump will out perform your submersible, I'm not sure if that could cause any problems. I have a 2 hp submersible and a 4 hp sprinkler pump it takes about 1.5 hours to fill my tank and 45 mins (with both) pumps running to empty it. Depending on what your growing t you might consider a drip feed system, much more economical with water and you could possibly just gravity feed it from a header tank.

[Lickey]

Chownah and Random Chances, first i must thankyou both, to get replies from 2 of the most advanced members on this forum is an honour for me, being a relative newcomer.

My biggest worry was that if the booster pump stopped for some reason, it would "dead head" my new submersible, consequently rendering it useless, and garantee void!

Taking both your replies into consideration, i will get a timer switch for sub pump, have a concrete ring tower built, about 1200bht including labour my missus rekons, the sub will feed this, float switches will determine when booster stops and starts, this way, both pumps are protected, Will try to source these parts in Global House Udon tomorrow, also some "flowing" bends rather than capped Ts, these capped Ts must irritate smooth water flow causing in-pipe fighting?

While we have new water tower built, perhaps a good idea to have another done at the top of the hill, we have all the pipeing for a drip system when the farm was nearly all melon, at the moment, its 9rai of Papaya, the root formation is perhaps 2 metres across, so knowing where to drip feed this is difficult, but as papaya dies off, we want to replace with bananas, easier to drip feed i believe..

As A footnote, the borehole man came up the hill to the bamboo plantation where he have a small "summer house" to do paperwork , garantee for water ect, he saw a meter high anthill and said there is water 10mtrs down, 30 mtrs would give you all the water you could ever want, would do this inclusive 17,000 bht, oh well cant win them all!! thanks again,

[Lickey]

I bought a 20amp timer switch in Global House today, 1400bht, Panasonic, multiple timings and easy to wire in, but couldnt find water level switch for water tower, only a float thing with pieces of string and a small platform to hold switch, {switch not supplied}, they had plenty of slurry pumps with the floating switch i want but not as a sepperate item,perhaps a ball/cock tied to a pull switch that would start and stop booster pump, if any forum people have any ideas, please let me know, thanks,,

[Khonwan]

Hi Lickey

Saw the min/max set of double switches suitable for a water tower at Bt700 (I think) at a new "Home Pro" type of store in Nakhon Sawan. I think it's called Homex. They are currently building a shop next to Big C but already have a much larger store on the Nakhon Sawan by-pass.

Rgds

Khonwan

[chownah]

Around here just about every hardware store carries a float switch and it seems like they are all rated at 7.5 amps. They cost a couple hundred baht or less. They consist of a switch unit, a string, and two floats. In Thai its called a "luke loy". They're everywhere and since your booster pump is 4 amp they should do the job for you.

Chownah

Edited March 28, 2007 by chownah

[Gary A]

To avoid problems with timers and differences in pump capacities, I would definitely, as suggested before, use two separate systems. Install a holding tank near the bore hole and use another pump to transfer from the holding tank/tanks. You can use electric or mechanical float controls and allow the transfer pump to use its own pressure switch. Simple is usually better.

[Lickey]

Gentlemen farmers, all your suggestions and advice have been taken onboard and a plan has developed starting this weekend, as a lot of you suggested, i will scour the local shops for a level cut of switch,failing this, i will make one out of a kiddes plastic ball, a bit of plastic tubing, and a ball bearing landing on contacts to start pump, propeley weighted and tested, this should work, anything to save money!!, oh well, just a thought !!!

Another more relative thought was because of pumping uphill, when the booster stops, the water runs back down 200 mtrs of 2in pipe, perhaps causing the booster to start again? i have a 1 way valve but where to fit,inlet or outlet side of the booster pump?

I havent seen a papaya farm or the like mentioned on here, but this afternoon, i was having a break with a ciggy and cold orange drink under the shade of the plants, this particular part of the plantation has chilles growing between the papaya, and hasnt been weeded by the labour she employs now and again, the papaya fruit here looks the best out of all the 9rai, filling out and long as well, I am thinking this weed cover is keeping the sun of the land more so it retains moisture better, im wondering if there is a cheap grass seed or the like.shallow rooted that would keep the soil moist after watering, or even all the sawdust we have, about 4 tons by the look of the heap!! I have started to compost this, but the heap just keeps getting bigger, the missus rents the sawmill to local chippies!!

Again, thanks for your advice and help, Lickey,,

[chownah]

Growing something to keep the ground cool will use up some of the water...not necessarily bad unless water is scarce. If you decide to grow something then consider some legume since they will fix nitrogen into the soil. We could discuss legumes if you want.

You could mulch with the sawdust but remember that if you till it into the soil it will temporarily tie up all the nitrogen which will be a temporary problem until enough nitrogen is made available in the soil to break down the sawdust. Putting some on the surface though will not cause this problem. By the way, there is alot of diffences among the stuff that different people call "sawdust". Actual "sawdust" is a powdery or fine grained substance. In woodworking many different sizes of pieces are generated when wood is worked. For instance, planers create shavings which are much coarser than real sawdust. Shavings are sort of curly...know what I mean? Anyway, shavings break down much slower than actual sawdust......hows the composting going?...have worms gotten into the compost piles yet?

Growing a legume and spreading a thin layer of sawdust would be absolutely ideal for soil development...I think that's what I'd try doing.

Chownah

Edited March 29, 2007 by chownah

[Lickey]

Hi Chownah, thanks for info, firstly, about the 1 way valve for booster pump, would you think on the delivery side so that the pressure would push it open, rather than reliying on suction vacumn although the header tank static pressure would help?either way, the booster will be primed, but whats the best way?

The sawdust experiment seems to be going ok, the missus has been collecting food waste from 3 places here, the buffalo man wanted 100bht per 5 gallon bucket!! havent seen any worms yet, but then i dont suppose they like the chilli sauces ect in the food waste!! plus the thai chippes keep putting more sawdust on the seperate heaps because they say it smells bad, so it must be composting!!

Looking at the remaing heap, i would say its 70%sawdust and 30% planings,and growing every day.

Last year my brother-in-law bought some weedkiller and sprayed this in different places in the papaya, to this day you can spot them easily, the ground is barren, the papaya growth is very stunted with small if any fruit, will planting a kind of legume reclaim this soil? and of course sawdust sprinkling, Your info on a legume suitable for walking on {have to pick fruit and prune trees and move water sprinklers} would be much appreciated, thanks

Lickey..

[chownah]

Lickey,

The one way valve for the booster pump could be put on the suction or the discharge...either way....I guess whichever is easiest to maintain. I can come up with nit picking theoretic reasons why putting it on the discharge would be better but if the valve is working correctly it really shouldn't matter especially for the booster pump where the suction line is short.

The usual fair price for cow manure is about 5 baht for a fertilizer sized bag full of dried manure....the price you quoted is ridiculous.

About the areas sprayed with weed killer. It would be good to find out what kind was used to see how long it takes to break down in the soil and if it leaves a residue. It could be that it has broken down already and the papaya plants just have not recovered (and might never...some kinds of plants don't recover from severe setbacks) and the weeds have not yet re-established. To find out just till up a small patch in the middle of one of your dead zones and plant something there to see if it grows...some kind of grass or gather some weed seed from some weed that grows there easily....see what happens. I don't know much about herbicides since I don't use them but I've heard that for most of them you just have to wait until they break down and then you should be ok to plant anything....I guess. I've heard that herbicides which leave long lasting poisonous residues are outlawed so that's probably not a problem....I guess. I don't know much about this kind of stuff. Try to find out what was used then you can research on how it works.

A good legume which you can walk on is centrosema....in Australia its called "centro". It is a low growing creeper and makes a dense mat that will cover the ground. It will try to climb on stuff and if left totally unchecked for a year it might become a problem because of this but it can easily be kept in check during normal weeding operations...I do whatever I can to encourage it as it is really good for the soil....cows love it and its really nutritious for them. It is sometimes mixed with grasses to make a pasture that is self fertilizing. When I'm ready to establish a pasture here I'll probably just collect the seeds from the variety that grows naturally around here in the north but I think seeds are available commercially but don't know for sure. Find out more from this site:

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Gbase/DATA/PF000019.HTM

If it grows well and you cut it you can mix the cuttings with the sawdust and it will work as good as manure in composting.....its really good stuff.

Chownah

Edited March 30, 2007 by chownah

[Lickey]

Chownah, had a look at the website and it does state that this is used for ground cover, will try to source some locally, going to Udon this weekend so will visit the seed shop on a big market there, also will show pic to missus in morning, perhaps she will recognize it and know the thai name, seems like i will have to keep an eye on it though, if its a climber, dont want it strangling the papaya trees, seems the best time to plant it is just before the rainy season, so it has natural irigation..

Concerning the weed killer, since missus bought papaya plantation of Br in Law 6 weeks ago, we havent seen him, he is a lovely fella and probaly under the delusion that a weedkiller is just that!! so ive no idea what he used, ive watered the 9 rai of papaya in rotation and still nothing like a weed grows in these affected places, givin time this weekend, will spade over a bit of ground, water and put some salad seeds in it, got loads of these.

Getting back to the booster pump, had 1 of my quiet moments this afternoon on farm, {nice to be away from busy salon and women nattering like runaway trains} I found another 1 way valve in the store shed, so im gonna fit 1 either side of pump, hopefully this will protect pump seals from header tank pressure and the downhill pressure of 200mtrs of 2", Cheers Lickey..

[chownah]

Lickey,

What is the difference in elevation between the booster pump and the highest point in the pipeline it pumps into....the highest point is probably at the discharge end of the line but might be somewhere in the middle if the line goes over a hill or slight rise. If it is small (2 or 3 metres) then you don't need to worry about the back pressure causing seal damage.

Chownah

[Lickey]

Unfortunatly the pipe climbs all the way with no drops, and with sprinklers fitted there is no vacumn in pipe to hold water, since the new sub was fitted i put in a tee with a tapped 1.5 outlet pipe,near pump, once a week after stopping pump i open this and the water goes about 20ft high and 25ft away for about 3 mins, this helps de-silt the pipe and gives a bit of water to the old banana plants close-by.so its going to be booster, 1way then t with outlet to clean pipe weekly.

Khonwan, thanks for your input about level cutouts, and Chownah, got the exact 1 i wanted where i bought pump in village hardware shop, its easily adjustable by sliding the weight up or down the electric cable, theres a { i presume } ball bearing inside making and breaking contact as levels change, pretty infallible!!

This next bit might interest a lot of you farmers ect, my missus was talking to shop boss about concrete rings to build tower ect, i wanted 4 2mtr rings to make a 2mtr tower, my missus quoted the price it took to have soakaway replaced at house, 1200 bht, 2 blokes,2 days, he correctly stated that its easy to put rings in ground, you try lifting one!! it would take 6/7 men 3 days to do base, lift rings and make scaffold for last one, the plaster/seal the joints ect, he reckoned id be looking at 5/6000 bht, he phoned somebody who appeared 5 mins later, it transpires he will make,deliver with a 2" outlet a large clay pot of 2300ltr capacity for 700bht!! this should come on tuesday and will place pot where i want, i can do all the eletrics and pipework so no labour needed, now thats what i call a result!!!

Chownah, spaded raked and watered a bit of the barren ground today, put some thai lettuce seed in and a few cucumber seeds, these both usually show in 4 days, so will know soon,

Regards, Lickey..

[chownah]

Yeah...lots of return pressure!!!!! The sprinklers must be several metres above the booster pump level!!! Get a check valve for sure or else keep draining manually at shutoff...or best scenerio is to do both....that way your booster pump will start up on an empty line and not have to fight the back pressure...although a pump should be able to start up against its rated pressure I would think...but maybe not...there are lots of low rated pumps and non rated pumps in Thailand so your idea to drain the line at shutdown is a good one. The worst case scenerio is for the water to be going backwards through the pump at maximum velocity and then for the pump to switch on....likely rapid burnout but I don't know for sure and wouldn't want to try it!!!

Seeds can sprout even in some bad conditions so you'll need to wait at least a few days after sprouting to be sure they are doing ok.

Chownah

Edited March 31, 2007 by chownah

[Lickey]

My missus regocnized the plant, everywhere there is a seep in the water pipe is this creeper, last october when labour were helping build small summerhouse on farm in the bamboo plantation one would go out into the papaya and come back with a new plumbob line or use this creeper to square up foundations ect, its as tough as hel_l, i reckon if i wound some together i could use as a tow-rope!!

Point taken about the germination and actual growing of the plants on barren ground, will monitor daily, but like you suggested, i really think this weedkiller is still working, the papaya in barren ground is 1 mtr tall, the next row with weeds ect is well over 2 mtr tall and good fruit, the current seed test will tell, or will just have to wait till natural weeds grow again, thanks, Lickey..

[chownah]

Yeah, centro will have a tender stem for about the first year or so and then the stem gets tougher. Since you know what plant it is now, do you think it will work for you or do you think its climbing will cause a problem? I'm wondering becaue I pretty much recommend it to everyone since I've never had problem with its climbing and I'd like your input....I hope I'm not recommending something that will make problems for people.

[Lickey]

Chownah, please read post in Growing Statistics 2 years on, Thanks, Lickey..

[Lickey]

Update, Going to Nong Khaen tomorrow for 90 day stamp so will look for a secure waterproof electric box to take switches, timer sub pump control box ect, apart from that the system you good gentlemen recomended is working fine, I have all the water and more besides, i have been turning it off because of standing water, as i understand it, papaya dont like puddles round there roots,

The Submersible fills the 2.300ltr concrete/clay pot {cost 700bht with 2"outlet in base} in 25 mins, the booster pump runs for the same time, giving 2000 ltrs to 3 9mtr dia sprinklers and 25 4mtr mini sprinklers, and i can still water the salad beds with a 1" dia hose at same time, the sub runs all the time, but the 25min break gives me ample time to move sprinklers as needed, Hopefully will get the rice straw this week to give more ground cover from the sun till the creepers and weeds can do the job for me, the next thing is the barren ground where the weedkiller was sprayed, there are 1/2 weeds and creepers begining to show, but i think its going to be a long process before the ground is good again, hopefully the rainy season will cleanse the soil? is it worth tilling it up a bit i wonder?

Thanks again for your excellent advice gentlemen, much appreciated,

Regards Lickey,,

[chownah]

Lickey,

Can you check the insulation class rating on your booster pump and/or the duty class. The insulation class usually says something like "ins class F"...and a good pump will be rated as continuous duty cycle. I'm wondering what you've got because I burned up one cheap pump already which didn't have any rating (which is what you expect from a cheap pump) and have replaced it with a better quality one which is insulation class F which means it can operate at a fairly high temperature but I'm kind of leary of running it for too long at a stretch having just burned up one pump and after my wife telling me I shouldn't run the pump so long it would be really embarrasing to burn up this one right away. After running it for about 20 minutes I stop...I put my hand on the unit and it is hot to the touch....but not too hot to touch...just a bit of pain....it doesn't damage the skin.....I'm wondering if this is too hot or not.......so......I'm wondering what you've got and how long you run it at one time....and does it get hot to the touch.

Chownah

[Lickey]

Hi Chownah, funny you ask about this, i was checking pump today, and reading the plate, and from what my poor photo memory tells me its 3000rpm, 280ltr/min/28mtr head/continous duty, made in italy and cost about 4.500bht a year ago, it runs for 25 mins and rests for 25mins, after its cycle, its exactly as you describe, hot to the touch, slightly painful but not life threatning, im no mathamatician but i would think its a hard push 200mtrs rising all the time perhaps 30 mtrs and then forcing water through the sprinklers, unless i put another tank at top of farm and another pump and more electricity usage, got to hang with this at the moment.

the pump originally sucked water from a lagoon pushed it to another pump which fed the irrigattion system, i never did go see and feel pump on continous duty to see how hot it got, but it never failed after a few months and appears ok now,

hope this helps, lickey..

[chownah]

Lickey,

Thanks for the reply. If your spriklers are 30 metres above your pump and your pump is rated at 28 metres max. head then you are over taxing the motor. I'm wondering if the verticle difference from the pump to the sprinklers is acutally less than 30 metres....could you be mistaken about this? I don't know for sure but I would think that a pump rated at 28 metres max head might be able to go to 30 metres but I doubt that it would have enough umph left after overcoming the vertilce rise to run a sprinkler properly...or even at all.......but I don't know for sure.

Is the 25 minutes on followed by the 25 minutes off the cycle time which you have programmed onto your timer?

Chownah

[Lickey]

Like i said Chownah, im no maths man, but all the sprinklers work fine, the more sprinklers i add it seems to cope ok, powering all with good results, unfortunatley i cant really decide the head level without a long ladder, piece of string and a spirit level, or a theodolite? is that what surveyors use for levels? at a rough guess, i would say the hill rises 3" in 1 yard x 240 mtrs to the furtherest sprinkler,

also i would think that the booster pump has the advantage of being gravity fed, not having to suck water, the cycle at the moment is governed by the luke loy device, upper and lower levels in the tank, will fit timer when i have a good secure/watertight lockable box to put all the exspensive stuff in,

regards, lickey.

[Khonwan]

...3" in 1 yard x 240 mtrs...

= 20 metres head.

Rgds

Khonwan

[Lickey]

thanks Khonwan, so it seems the pump is working within its capabilities, i do have a bigger {older} pump in reserve, which i think uses more electricty, will check plate details very soon,

cheers, Lickey..

[chownah]

Lickey,

Bigger does not necessarily mean that it will develop more head....usually bigger means a higher volume per second (litres per second)....as you know just check the specs on the plate.

One way to estimate the elevation of your sprinkler location would be to try to spot a tree growing down below whose top or some prominant branch is at the same level as the height of the sprinklers.....then go estimate the height of the tree. Don't bother doing this unless you want to....I'm not trying to put you through your paces for nothing....seems like your pump is working fine and that's the main thing.

I found a good site that explains alot of stuff about pumps:

http://cipco.apogee.net/mnd/home.asp

Chownah