Hong Kong democrats score landslide victory in local elections amid political crisis

[Traubert]

On 11/25/2019 at 7:16 AM, rabas said:

Which terrifies Beijing. The one thing they fear the most, their own people.

Absolutely on the nail there.

 

That's why they work so hard to maintain their 90% approval ratings. (As estimated by the Kennedy Harvard Institute, before anyone starts wailing about believing China's numbers).

[Traubert]

3 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Ah yes. The people.

No-one, but no-one gets to Zhongnanhai without first being voted in by the ordinary people, and I don't mean party members, ordinary people. 800m eligible voters exercised their voting rights in China last year alone.

 

It takes 25 years to get into Zhongnanhai, not just a quick wave of the cheque book and calling in favours for favours.

[Monomial]

10 hours ago, ncc1701d said:

Hong Kong’s prosperity has come about by excellent governance under British rule. Consistently the freest economy in the world, police were the most highly regarded of any police force, people were content and saw a future. If it was “laissez-faire”, it certainly worked. For me personally I would say business are given too much freedom and the lack of workers rights is appalling, but that’s a different topic. To suggest that what is happening now - 22 years after hand over is because of the way the British ran the place is not justifiable. 

 

I would argue that it had very little to do with governance, although that probably depends on how you define governance. It had to do with the fact that China was in a period of rapid ascendency, and Hong Kong was the gateway to that realm, given that it enforced a Westerized court system. The rest of the world felt confident with signing legal agreements in Hong Kong. The fact that Hong Kong was also basically a tax haven didn't hurt one bit. All trade with the West passed through Hong Kong.

 

What is happening in Hong Kong today is neither because of British governance, nor because of mainland governance, but primarily because the previous reason for Hong Kong's existence, namely to serve as a gateway to China and live as a parasite off the flow of trade passing through, no longer exists. Hong Kong needs to find a new purpose. It is only to be expected that its citizens will differ on what that new purpose is to be.

 

The discontent in Hong Kong today is a result of the 99 years of British rule that created generations of middlemen which no longer serve a purpose. To deny that is to deny reality.

[Coremouse]

16 hours ago, car720 said:

Well, well, well.

You certainly do make some very good points but on the whole it is sophistry.

There is no doubt that the CCP is a reflection of the Chinese persona but to mention confessing old sins is akin to wearing blinkers.

What do you say to Tianamen Square or what is happening to the rightful inhabitants of Xinjiang as we speak?  What about the tactic of threatening to punish the family of anyone who dares to speak out against them?  I'm afraid that their human rights record is far from clean.

On the whole it is true that the CCP have greatly improved the infrastructure of China and have succeeded in creating a middle class; both being necessary to create the domestic economy that China lacked.

It is true that China is a peaceful place.  As long as you toe the line.

Freedom, the one thing that every man and woman strives for is not something easily given by the CCP however.

Finally, I ask you what would happen to anyone who dared to ask Xi Jinping how he could make himself emperor of China without asking permission of the people?

Freedom for a person is a thing, freedom for everyone is another thing. An oligarch could be the free-est person while be in silly-est sociaty. People doesn't natually agree each other, and for many people there bound to be some criminal, you need to provide resource or equality for buffer, and education and better living to make more decent people. And for PRC started from a quite bad initial condition, modern China did is drop political argument, drop flashy words like "freedom" "democracy" "communism" no sane one in China cares about them. Then really strive on economy, trading, education to make everyone more freedom-er in future. 

 

Thus when I read some protester post said kill half HK people, I don't think it's a problem about freedom or governance. ( Those posts as are serious as protesters're. Same people posted several "legal bases to kill a police", next day happens the gun shot accident - when several protesters clearly set trap for that single police )

 

A lot of non-freedom are not from goverment but from people. When I was in my rural home village I was ostracized because I'm LGBT, but not from government oppression, but from all the un-educated people who holds deep stereotype. You all hear those story where political activists put in jail or asylum. But when I saw people put in asylum not by 'govt oppression' but all by their dearest ones for greedy over inheritace, shove in their own ill-developed kids, etc., literally normal ( greedy, lazy )peope pay for life imprisonment their own relatives. yes it's not right, but no govt only got part of the responsibilty. When I finally been living in Beijing, Shanghai guess what? No one cared if I'm LGBT, in a big city it's quite normal thing. When people's living standards improve and better educated, there will be more buffer and more peace life. For now I still criticize govt in Chinese forums, but my target now been greedy, corruption, stereotype, not god-knows-exist goverment oppression. 

 

For a guy could strive to anti-corruption and environment protection( the winter smog situation threatening millions of Huabei farmers' lives are still there, but MUCH better recently ), whether his motives - he made real change. I've no argue with Xi so far, and Excuse me for don't realize him an Emperor, never knows! Is prez.Roosevelt also an Emporer died on his throne? 

[ncc1701d]

10 hours ago, Monomial said:

 

I would argue that it had very little to do with governance, although that probably depends on how you define governance. It had to do with the fact that China was in a period of rapid ascendency, and Hong Kong was the gateway to that realm, given that it enforced a Westerized court system. The rest of the world felt confident with signing legal agreements in Hong Kong. The fact that Hong Kong was also basically a tax haven didn't hurt one bit. All trade with the West passed through Hong Kong.

 

What is happening in Hong Kong today is neither because of British governance, nor because of mainland governance, but primarily because the previous reason for Hong Kong's existence, namely to serve as a gateway to China and live as a parasite off the flow of trade passing through, no longer exists. Hong Kong needs to find a new purpose. It is only to be expected that its citizens will differ on what that new purpose is to be.

 

The discontent in Hong Kong today is a result of the 99 years of British rule that created generations of middlemen which no longer serve a purpose. To deny that is to deny reality.

All the things you’ve mentioned in your first paragraph didn’t happen by magic. It was all controlled by the British. 
 

as for China’s rapid ascendency - that’s only in the last part of British rule in hkg. China only started opening up in the 80’s and only really opened up in the 90’s and their gdp only started to sky rocket from 2010. So it was all luck for the 99 years before 1997? Hkg was literally a fishing and salt producing village when they took over. When I was a kid, everything was “made in Hong Kong” not China. Then everything was “made in Taiwan”. Comparatively speaking it’s only a relatively new phenomenon Since the Chinese economic reform that everything is now made in China as those companies relocated into the mainland. Cheap labour on the mainland with Hong Kong acting as the financial hubs for those company’s.

as for your last statement, that is not the case at all. Hkg has been sitting at 3.5% Unemployment and below for a long time. Plenty of jobs for people. The “middleman” has been out of the equation for many years. People can’t buy a home for themselves because property prices have become impossible to buy and other interference on freedoms in hkg as the catalyst. Now that hkg is tapped out of the property market, mainlanders went to the next most stable government areas to buy property - Aus and nz and we all know what has happened to property prices there. Next will be Thailand and Penang imo. (Penang being an interesting comparison to Hong Kong - it could have easily been another “Hong Kong” had the British not left in the late 50’s).

 

Hong Kong has reinvented itself. Due to the world class financial and legal systems, it is a world leader in equity and debt financing and it’s all down to its unique system of governance. Hkg hosts most of China’s ipo’s outside of the mainland. 
 

anyway, search of “history of Hong Kong” in Wikipedia is very comprehensive. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by ncc1701d

[Coremouse]

1 hour ago, car720 said:

Roosevelt followed the law of the people.  Xi does not.  He is a dictator and a despot.  Consider what has been done to the faloon gong and now Christian religions as well.  Gold is God in China.  No one has any problem with free enterprise at all.  Good luck to hard working people.

As for your own personal situation you are going to find that you will encounter bigotry in whatever country you choose to live in.

... I was also a Falun Dafa practioner. Now not anymore but still believe govt accuse Tiananmen-suicide to FLG was a lie.

 

It was more of a Jiang or Hu era thing, I go underground( I'm ~ 9 that time ) but did not notice any atrocities in my locale, just people quit or go underground. And it was Jiang's son Jang Mianheng and follower Zhou Yongkang built the infamous "golden shield" net censorship. 

 

Xi did nothing on his own if anything Zhou Yongkang was life jailed right now because corruption. And we noticed Xi has annouced a "list of illegal fanatic cults" for first time doesn't include FLG. The signal is ambigous and nothing much really changed, but still nothing went worse. 

 

It is also very clear currently FLG gets funding from US and may infiltrated by China, it's politic over religion now and filled with bulls****s so ridiculous I could laugh in dream( thus I quit ). 

 

Since I'm one have long history with Chinese police... I could confidently tell you any folk could personally believe Christanity without slightest problem( man do I hate all those people tried to convert me ), you could even ridicule Xi openly, verbal or on net, reported or not - for lazy Chinese police want nothing from commner over politics( aka. unneccessary workload 'go drink tea'. same reason US grant more asylum to richman and useful defectors but not actual plain refugee ), not even serves a good bully( which some police do, when you realize China have actually very few numbers of regular police and many very low wage 'assistant police'. In rural parts many those low paying a.p. are previously jobless or thugs ). Unless if funded by NED/NDI and really conspiring - that's illegal in every countrys' law code. 

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Coremouse