Death Penalty

[DFCarlson]

I support the death penalty. In fact, I have worked to expand and change the laws that allow the legal system (in the US) to put a convicted criminal to death. My belief is that the people of any country must live under the rule of law - it would be chaos otherwise. If the law allows the death penalty and you are against it, then you should work to change the law.

The main part of the law that I would change is where it says that a criminal, to be convicted, must be judged by a jury to be guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt". Where the death penaly is applied, I would change the law to read "beyond any doubt". The current law allows too great a possibility, IMO, for an innocent person to be put to death. If the conviction is based on "beyond a reasonable doubt" then life imprisonment without the possibility of parole should be the maximum sentence allowed.

[mr_hippo]

When I lived in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia they would hold weekly public executions on fridays in 'chop-chop' square. These public executions would be very well attended. People on their way to these executions would have a look of excitement and glee on their faces and I have seen similar expressions on people outside prisons in the US where executions are taking place. I found this blood-lust sickening. I see no difference between these execution groupies and other death penalty supporters around the world. What a sad world we live in.

If you did live in Saudi then you would know that it is Chop Square and not chop chop. 'Chop chop' means something entirely different. How does the crime rate in Saudi compare to Western countries? There's a lot less. You should have also mentioned that if a Westerner is seen anywhere near Chop Square then he/she would be given a 'front row seat' and forced to watch the execution. You mention 'blood lust', why do you think many spectators watch dangerous sporting events? Watch that farce that is WWE, where the 'actors' deliberately cut themselves to satisfy the spectators' blood lust.

Jet Gordon mentioned that the Canadian pig farmer is a simpleton - is that some form of defence? There are too many defences like that -'He was abused as a child', 'He comes from a poor family', 'He had a deprived childhood; give me a bl**dy break! What about the felon on Death Row, I think it was in Florida, The main thrust of his appeal was that to execute him would rob him of his freedom of speech - did he apply the same logical thinking to his victim's freedom of speech?

They should not be allowed to "earn" cigarette or candy money. Those are luxuries. They should be performing unpleasant and punishing duties to pay for their stay at the prison. For example, inmate labor can be used to build sand bag dams during an impending flood.... cut trees and clear rubbish after a natural disaster.... clean highways.... clean out septic tanks at government owned campgrounds, paint and clean properties that are owned by the tax paying citizen, etc, etc. Many times, these duties are performed by a contractor or the state militia and paid with tax dollars. The inmates should be earning (with sweat labor) those three meals each day and the cot they sleep on.

We have another budding comedian here - give them outside work? Can you or anyone else guarantee 100% security? If they escape and go on a killing spree, what's your excuse then?

Edited March 31, 2007 by mr_hippo

[cdnvic]

No one who has been executed has committed further crimes, have they?

Are you volunteering to be one of the ones killed mistakenly to avoid them committing further crimes?

Edited March 31, 2007 by cdnvic

[garro]

Mr Hippo says:

If you did live in Saudi then you would know that it is Chop Square and not chop chop. 'Chop chop' means something entirely different.

I lived in Medical City and worked in King Fahad National Guard Hospital. The square in Riyadh where executions take place is known as 'chop-chop' square. Please check your facts before making arrogant remarks and accusing me of lying. Your eagerness to condemn a strager you don't even know as a liar probably explains your eagerness to see people executed.

Here is a just one weblink for chop-chop square;

http://www.pbase.com/mkleijn/image/32776137

[jingjoe]

The main part of the law that I would change is where it says that a criminal, to be convicted, must be judged by a jury to be guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt". Where the death penalty is applied, I would change the law to read "beyond any doubt".

In judicial systems that requires a unaniomous verdict, and in some cases accept a majority verdict, it would be "unreasonable" to expect jurors to agree to a persons guilt "beyond ANY doubt".

Any doubt would, by its common everyday meaning, allow "unreasonable" doubt. (An alien took control of the accused body and it was the alien that shot the victim in the head.) Hardly a reasonable doubt, but can't be ruled out absolutely positively, especially by a juror who believes in Aliens.

Reasonable doubt has served the more enlightened justice systems well. It allows a lot of guilty people to walk away free, but it limits the likely-hood of any innocent person being wrongly convicted. (Yeah it happens, but it is as rare as being hit by lightning, and usually rectified by a higher court).

Ordinary people, with their civic responsibilities clearly defined to them, can be trusted to judge the facts, and therefore trusted to judge whether a convicted serious offender is better off dead.

PS> With almost 20 years of working in the Justice System, and many hours spent in the Supreme Criminal Courts, I remain anti-DP, but I accept that there will always be persons around that are better off dead for the good of the broader community.

[popshirt]

I would reserve the death penalty for one class of -- can you call them people--

pedophiles -- The ones that Jesus Christ sentenced to death -- Luke 17 verse 2

"It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he was thrown into the sea than that he should offend one of these little ones"

How arrogant to say JC sentenced to death! This is a metaphor.

[Gary A]

A menace to society should be eliminated. Someone who took the life of an innocent person should be executed. I support the death penalty if it is positively proved that they are guilty. Some of the silly defenses the lawyers come up with are an insult to most people's intelligence.

Recently in the US a murderer was released because of DNA evidence. The woman was raped and his DNA did not match. As it turned out his nephew raped the woman and this guy really did kill her.

A life sentence without possibility of release is an option but with so many bleeding hearts, this cannot happen.

[JR Texas]

A menace to society should be eliminated. Someone who took the life of an innocent person should be executed. I support the death penalty if it is positively proved that they are guilty. Some of the silly defenses the lawyers come up with are an insult to most people's intelligence.

Recently in the US a murderer was released because of DNA evidence. The woman was raped and his DNA did not match. As it turned out his nephew raped the woman and this guy really did kill her.

A life sentence without possibility of release is an option but with so many bleeding hearts, this cannot happen.

JR Texas: Gary A........come on.....of course we want to stop bad people from doing bad things. But, if you were sitting in that CHAIR...the one with the electrical hookups, and you were TOTALLY INNOCENT....would you stick with what you said above?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/ I just found this online...looks interesting. I wonder how many people have actually been put to death that were later found to be innocent. I said something about it earlier, but that was from distant memory.

[DFCarlson]

The main part of the law that I would change is where it says that a criminal, to be convicted, must be judged by a jury to be guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt". Where the death penalty is applied, I would change the law to read "beyond any doubt".

In judicial systems that requires a unaniomous verdict, and in some cases accept a majority verdict, it would be "unreasonable" to expect jurors to agree to a persons guilt "beyond ANY doubt".

Any doubt would, by its common everyday meaning, allow "unreasonable" doubt. (An alien took control of the accused body and it was the alien that shot the victim in the head.) Hardly a reasonable doubt, but can't be ruled out absolutely positively, especially by a juror who believes in Aliens.

Reasonable doubt has served the more enlightened justice systems well. It allows a lot of guilty people to walk away free, but it limits the likely-hood of any innocent person being wrongly convicted. (Yeah it happens, but it is as rare as being hit by lightning, and usually rectified by a higher court).

Ordinary people, with their civic responsibilities clearly defined to them, can be trusted to judge the facts, and therefore trusted to judge whether a convicted serious offender is better off dead.

PS> With almost 20 years of working in the Justice System, and many hours spent in the Supreme Criminal Courts, I remain anti-DP, but I accept that there will always be persons around that are better off dead for the good of the broader community.

What I would like to see is a system where you cannot condemn a person to death on the basis of conviction where there is any doubt that the person committed the crime for which he has been condemned to death, or where all the evidence that might be presented has not been heard. The jury has to be able to say, "He did it, there's no other alternative conclusion!", not, "I think he's guilty... but!". Aliens aside, many people are convicted of crimes of which they are not guilty when there are loopholes in the prosecution case, where pertinent evidence has not been heard and where a sharp and competent defense attorney could present a plausible alternative theory of the crime.

You accept that there are persons around that are better off dead for the good of the broader community, but are you willing to follow through and eliminate them? If not, why not?

Edited March 31, 2007 by DFCarlson

[robert2]

When I started this thread I was looking for your opinion on the death penalty, not just in Thailand but as a general issue.

Most western countries has abandoned it, but countries in all other regions seem to keep it.

Even if this poll has been done before it's worth noting that a poll is an instant picture of moods at the time is made and new members has joined since.

If the previous poll shows about 50/50% split in opinions, the mood could very well have changed to 75% against death penalty.

[mr_hippo]

Thank you for the photo of Deerah Square, it's been years since I was there. Anyone can trawl the 'net and find it but that does not prove you were there.

I do not have any 'eagerness' to see people executed but I can speak from both sides of the fence. I had a good friend murdered by a convicted murderer who had 'paid his debt to society' and my maternal grandfather was executed bu British Forces in September 1917 after being tried and convicted of 'Cowardice in front of the enemy', he was possibly suffering from what we used to call 'shell-shock but we shall never know.

[jasreeve17]

There will always be the pros and cons of this or any other debate. I cannot and will not try to convert you and no matter what reasoned argument that you put forward will not convert me.

That sounds pretty closed minded Mr Hippo.

I always go into discussions willing to see the other viewpoints, and change my own if need be.

[alexth]

I haven't voted yet because the subject is much more complex than a simple yes or no. I would support the death penalty for child molestors and serial killers and other few cases. Anyways, I'm too tired of this subject from other sources, so feeding this thread would be pretty annoying.

[LindsayBKK]

If this a death penalty country then how would things be without? I don't think I would be living here.

[Nebukanezar]

When I lived in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia they would hold weekly public executions on fridays in 'chop-chop' square. These public executions would be very well attended. People on their way to these executions would have a look of excitement and glee on their faces and I have seen similar expressions on people outside prisons in the US where executions are taking place. I found this blood-lust sickening. I see no difference between these execution groupies and other death penalty supporters around the world. What a sad world we live in.

Sickening or nay, they don't have anything like the type of crime rates that The US or England dose. I'm no Muslim nor would I ever want to live in Saudi but that being said I can look at certain things objectively and see they are doing something right.

For everone so bent against the death penalty, firstly from a Thai perspective this is and has been their way, they are comfortable with it and if not they will change it. We have all seen their ability to demonstraite so if they want change they will make it happen.

Secondly you all must be very blessed and I am indeed happy for you. Obviously you haven't had someone you love murdered in cold blood by a scum bag, nor have you seen your community fall to something lower than shit from the infulance of crack dealers and gang vilolence.

In medicnce we remove cancer, leech out infectious cells, clean our wounds. We don't move them too a different part of the body. And yes sometimes we cut out perfectly good cells in the processes, but far better the death of a few then the death of the whole.

[garro]

Thank you for the photo of Deerah Square, it's been years since I was there. Anyone can trawl the 'net and find it but that does not prove you were there.

I do not have any 'eagerness' to see people executed but I can speak from both sides of the fence. I had a good friend murdered by a convicted murderer who had 'paid his debt to society' and my maternal grandfather was executed bu British Forces in September 1917 after being tried and convicted of 'Cowardice in front of the enemy', he was possibly suffering from what we used to call 'shell-shock but we shall never know.

Well luckily for me I have no need to prove anything to you as you obviously are just someone who enjoys insulting complete strangers. I suppose when the facts fail you it is all you can rely on.

If anybody else however would like evidence I would have no problem scanning and posting my old entry/exit visas for Saudi.

Edited March 31, 2007 by garro

[mr_hippo]

Garro,

I publicly apologise to you for doubting your word. Please accept my apologies

Hippo

[garro]

fogret it

Edited March 31, 2007 by garro

[onzestan]

What I'm noticing in this thread is that not one of you mentions the satisfaction the death penalty brings to close relatives of the victims.

This is exactly what is wrong with threads like this. Too much consideration towards the criminals that KNOWINGLY committed a crime. The victims did not have any choice whatsoever.

I'm not bloodthirsty, in fact I'm a bit of a pussy, but I strongly support the death penalty, or life long imprisonment without possibility of getting out ever again, because I believe that to many people have been victims of criminals released from prison to start all over again.

Ask any parent of a molested child what they think of the politically oh so correct that let known pederasts, murderers etc. back into society. Not forgetting that the financially better of, have acces to better lawyers

who exploit the loopholes in the law to their maximum.

Stop pampering the criminals and please show some consideration for the victims of any crime.

Onzestan

[Nebukanezar]

What I'm noticing in this thread is that not one of you mentions the satisfaction the death penalty brings to close relatives of the victims.

This is exactly what is wrong with threads like this. Too much consideration towards the criminals that KNOWINGLY committed a crime. The victims did not have any choice whatsoever.

I'm not bloodthirsty, in fact I'm a bit of a pussy, but I strongly support the death penalty, or life long imprisonment without possibility of getting out ever again, because I believe that to many people have been victims of criminals released from prison to start all over again.

Ask any parent of a molested child what they think of the politically oh so correct that let known pederasts, murderers etc. back into society. Not forgetting that the financially better of, have acces to better lawyers

who exploit the loopholes in the law to their maximum.

Stop pampering the criminals and please show some consideration for the victims of any crime.

Onzestan

Well said well said, I was suicidal for a year after my first love was murdered, and I needed therapy for 2 years.... Her family will never be the same and we are just 1 set of victims! he killed 5 other pepole!!! The only way criminals like this need to be pampered is with depends to make clean up easy after they peel him off the chair!

[onzestan]

What I'm noticing in this thread is that not one of you mentions the satisfaction the death penalty brings to close relatives of the victims.

This is exactly what is wrong with threads like this. Too much consideration towards the criminals that KNOWINGLY committed a crime. The victims did not have any choice whatsoever.

I'm not bloodthirsty, in fact I'm a bit of a pussy, but I strongly support the death penalty, or life long imprisonment without possibility of getting out ever again, because I believe that to many people have been victims of criminals released from prison to start all over again.

Ask any parent of a molested child what they think of the politically oh so correct that let known pederasts, murderers etc. back into society. Not forgetting that the financially better of, have acces to better lawyers

who exploit the loopholes in the law to their maximum.

Stop pampering the criminals and please show some consideration for the victims of any crime.

Onzestan

Well said well said, I was suicidal for a year after my first love was murdered, and I needed therapy for 2 years.... Her family will never be the same and we are just 1 set of victims! he killed 5 other pepole!!! The only way criminals like this need to be pampered is with depends to make clean up easy after they peel him off the chair!

Sorry to hear about that, hope your over it now.

Cheers

onzestan

[Nebukanezar]

Thanks Onzestan, yeah that was over 10 years go. I rember her from time to time but I moved on a long time back. His death really helped to bring closure however.

[November Rain]

What I'm noticing in this thread is that not one of you mentions the satisfaction the death penalty brings to close relatives of the victims.

This is exactly what is wrong with threads like this. Too much consideration towards the criminals that KNOWINGLY committed a crime. The victims did not have any choice whatsoever.

I'm not bloodthirsty, in fact I'm a bit of a pussy, but I strongly support the death penalty, or life long imprisonment without possibility of getting out ever again, because I believe that to many people have been victims of criminals released from prison to start all over again.

Ask any parent of a molested child what they think of the politically oh so correct that let known pederasts, murderers etc. back into society. Not forgetting that the financially better of, have acces to better lawyers

who exploit the loopholes in the law to their maximum.

Stop pampering the criminals and please show some consideration for the victims of any crime.

Onzestan

I think most of us against the death penalty are against it more because of the risk of putting to death an innocent person, rather than from a wish to pamper the criminals. Let me ask you a question. How do you think the victims' families & loved ones would feel if they found out some time later that the wrong person had been put to death & the criminal who harmed/killed their loved one was still free? Wouldn't that be even more trauma for them to experience?

[Naam]

Mr Hippo says:

If you did live in Saudi then you would know that it is Chop Square and not chop chop. 'Chop chop' means something entirely different.

I lived in Medical City and worked in King Fahad National Guard Hospital. The square in Riyadh where executions take place is known as 'chop-chop' square. Please check your facts before making arrogant remarks and accusing me of lying. Your eagerness to condemn a strager you don't even know as a liar probably explains your eagerness to see people executed.

Here is a just one weblink for chop-chop square;

http://www.pbase.com/mkleijn/image/32776137

gentlemen!

no need to argue and exchange accusations. i lived quite a number of years in Jeddah and Riyadh and can confirm both expressions (chop and chop-chop square) existed but were used mostly by expats who didn't speak arabic.

[onzestan]

I think most of us against the death penalty are against it more because of the risk of putting to death an innocent person, rather than from a wish to pamper the criminals. Let me ask you a question. How do you think the victims' families & loved ones would feel if they found out some time later that the wrong person had been put to death & the criminal who harmed/killed their loved one was still free? Wouldn't that be even more trauma for them to experience?

No I don't think so, in fact I'm pretty sure about that. I know that once the criminal was behind bars for the rest of his natural life, and/or executed an enormous emotional weight falls of their shoulders.

I beg you to consider that the number of people wrongly jailed or executed is very very low indeed and the number of victims that NEVER get the satisfaction of the wrongdoers getting an appropriate sentence is enormous. Anyway the emotional baggage that some victims or their loved ones have to carry is for the rest of their lives.

Enough said, I can go on forever on this subject, maybe just because I had a niece of mine (8 years) raped and killed, the guy in question serving a sentence of 20 years, of which he might actually serve 8 or 9.

If I had children I wouldn't want this guy to come and live in my street or village. Forgive and forget, forget it.

Cheers

[cdnvic]

Doesn't look like anyone's changed their minds since last time.

[garro]

Oh I see, the purpose of these executions is to make victims feel better. I would expect then that you supportes of state-sponsored executions will be equally vocal in your search for closure for those poor victims in Iraq. Maybe all the Iraqis who have lost children and loved ones will feel better when they see those responsible punished.

But wait a second, that's not going to happen. No, usually the people in this world who end up being executed are the weak and powerless who are often victims themselves or mentally defective. Most murder in this world is commited by people who will never be punished.

Nobody has the right to take a life and nobody has the right to ask somebody else to take a life on their behalf.

Life without parole should be enough for even the most serious offenses and prison shouldn't be about the prisoners comfort.

[onzestan]

November Rain,

Sorry about my outburst. I guess I'm just to emotional on this subject

Cheers

Onzestan

[November Rain]

Onzestan, it's fine. It's completely understandable & I didn't think it was an outburst. I still don't agree, but I can understand completely where you & Nebukanezar are coming from. I'm truly sorry for both of your losses under absolutely horrific circumstances.

[onzestan]

Oh I see, the purpose of these executions is to make victims feel better. I would expect then that you supportes of state-sponsored executions will be equally vocal in your search for closure for those poor victims in Iraq. Maybe all the Iraqis who have lost children and loved ones will feel better when they see those responsible punished.

But wait a second, that's not going to happen. No, usually the people in this world who end up being executed are the weak and powerless who are often victims themselves or mentally defective. Most murder in this world is commited by people who will never be punished.

Nobody has the right to take a life and nobody has the right to ask somebody else to take a life on their behalf.

Life without parole should be enough for even the most serious offenses and prison shouldn't be about the prisoners comfort.

Please don't misquote me. I clearly stated death penalty OR life imprisonment without parole, and if you have followed this thread closely you will have noticed that at least one has admitted that the execution of the murderer of his loved one has brought closure on his trauma.

Don't you dare compare my strong believe in just punishment for criminals, to what is happening in Iraq, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Africa etc.

Anyway enough said you're not worth my time.

Onzestan