23 minutes ago, Opl said:

OK, so, :

- how do you think a sole woman confronted to several men can physically respond?

- if she manages to somehow injure them, do you believe they will calm down or is there any possibility it could turn out worse, just in case? 

What I think is irrelevant. Only the evidence can be considered, not "what she could or should have done"

So far, I could not convict the guys based on proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Perhaps there are some who would convict just because she said so. That's not me though.

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What I think is irrelevant. Only the evidence can be considered, not "what she could or should have done"

So far, I could not convict the guys based on proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Perhaps there are some who would convict just because she said so. That's not me though.

I asked you in return of your own quote : "Did any of them have scratches on their faces, or anything indicating she fought back?" 

Some people ask themselves "why" or "how" after "what"... but as you say it could be irrelevant..

Edited January 2, 20206 yr by Opl

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The only people that KNOW what went on in that room are the 13 people involved. We can have all the suspicion in the world, but it won't be relevant.

I put myself in a jury and think about what evidence I'd need to convict the guys. What has been presented so far does not arise, IMO, to proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Therefore I would not convict.

But no jury was involved. No one was presented with the evidence, the court saw to that! After 8 hours of being harangued by police officers the girl with drew her accusations!

 

A young girl surrounded be experienced police officers in a society which considers English holiday makers as pests and the girls as scrubbers and little more than unpaid whores. Come on what do you think is gonna really happen especially if outside diplomatic pressure is being applied.

 

So she's now the one facing conviction not 'the guys'. They're long gone safely off back home to their mummies and daddies. They're home and dry, she's the one that's in the $h!t.

 

I don't usually have much faith in these Courts of Human Rights and so on when they stand up for criminals and terrorists but when a young English girl has been bullied and is facing jail for accusing 12 men of raping her I can see the need for such courts.

 

And it's been said she intends to take it to these Courts in the Hague as she won't get any justice in Cyprus. 

 

This girl has not been allowed to go home since July and her family are having to pay all her legal expenses. 

 

Little wonder the court officials tried to down play the matter when reporters got wind of what was going on.

On 12/30/2019 at 11:21 PM, EdrigoSalvadore said:

I believe they have a video of her seeminlgy enjoying and participating willingly in the act.

Then you believe wrong. 
 

The video shows consensual sex with ONE guy and her and the guy telling the others to get out when they were trying to get into the room 

3 hours ago, Opl said:

I asked you in return of your own quote : "Did any of them have scratches on their faces, or anything indicating she fought back?" 

Some people ask themselves "why" or "how" after "what"... but as you say it could be irrelevant..

Would you fight back against 12 ?? And even if you did what would be your chances of landing any damage ? 
 

Or weigh up your odds and think I just need to get through this alive 

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Many things abbreviated to FCO. What do you reference and why should I care what they think anyway?

I wasn't in the room, and neither were you. I don't blindly accept versions of a story based solely on gender of those promulgating it. I prefer some actual evidence.

 

FCO: Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

 

A Foreign Office spokesman said the case in Ayia Napa was "deeply distressing" and it will raise the issue with Cypriot authorities.

 

It is unusual for the Foreign Office to comment publicly on active legal proceedings against British nationals overseas.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50952312

On GMB today:

 

Some of the comments on here are what I would expect from an oppressive Islamic state. 

Everything about this case has been done wrong.

Remember she is a lone 19 year old girl then look at some of the information I have read and the situation she is in.

What has she to gain by saying rape after having a fun time? Very few women go to the police and cry rape without good reason. Reporting is a very unpleasant ordeal in itself yet alone in another country. Just because most alleged rapes go unproven doesn't mean they don't happen. 

The video showed the accused barging in and refusing to leave when asked. Doesn't sound like it would have been consensual and how frightening would it be for a young girl? What might her survival strategy be in that situation? 

She had injuries consistent with being raped. Doesn't seem like she was treated well so I doubt it was enjoyable. 

Apparently the Israelis were triumphant when they got home proving what kind of scumbags they really are. 

As for the police, what is their main concern -

They didn't secure the crime scene and didn't do a thorough investigation. They didn't treat her as  vulnerable. They refused (importantly) any representation at the very long "interview" before she retracted her statement.  The retraction was in poor English so obviously not her words. The Israelis were released immediately.

I suspect the tourist industry that Cyprus relies on was probably their main concern as can happen in other countries. 

Bearing in mind the sex may have started as consensual then she could have said stop at which point if they didn't stop it immediately becomes rape.

And what is their defense? - it was consensual. I would like to see them prove that but of course they don't have to. Maybe there isn't enough evidence (partly due to poor police work) to convict the Israelis but is there any evidence that she was lying apart from her retraction that may not have been given freely? Let's hope one of the Israelis is man enough and has the decency to tell the truth if she is not lying but I don't have much hope.

Maybe she is no angel but the police appear to be rotten and need sorting out. I am all for banning flights from the UK to Cyprus to focus attention on getting it done. I will not take my family there just as we won't be going to a certain Thai island.

 

 

 

 

On 1/2/2020 at 3:12 PM, yogi100 said:

But no jury was involved. No one was presented with the evidence, the court saw to that! After 8 hours of being harangued by police officers the girl with drew her accusations!

 

A young girl surrounded be experienced police officers in a society which considers English holiday makers as pests and the girls as scrubbers and little more than unpaid whores. Come on what do you think is gonna really happen especially if outside diplomatic pressure is being applied.

 

So she's now the one facing conviction not 'the guys'. They're long gone safely off back home to their mummies and daddies. They're home and dry, she's the one that's in the $h!t.

 

I don't usually have much faith in these Courts of Human Rights and so on when they stand up for criminals and terrorists but when a young English girl has been bullied and is facing jail for accusing 12 men of raping her I can see the need for such courts.

 

And it's been said she intends to take it to these Courts in the Hague as she won't get any justice in Cyprus. 

 

This girl has not been allowed to go home since July and her family are having to pay all her legal expenses. 

 

Little wonder the court officials tried to down play the matter when reporters got wind of what was going on.

In a world where many men have had their lives ruined by women's lies, I need more evidence than has been presented before I believe a woman saying she was raped. If that seems hard, blame the liars for creating doubt.

 

11 hours ago, chang1 said:

Some of the comments on here are what I would expect from an oppressive Islamic state. 

I thought you were saying southern Cyprus is Islamic.

LOL.

In an oppressive Islamic state the girl would never have been alone with a non related man in a room.

 

I'm not saying she wasn't raped, but so far no evidence has been presented that convinces me beyond a reasonable doubt that she is speaking the truth.

On 1/1/2020 at 5:57 PM, RJRS1301 said:

toxic masculinity,

Oh, the all men bad thing.

No one objects to a bit of masculinity when it's a MAN going into a burning building to rescue people, or a MAN in a war being a hero, but when it's related to a woman, men are apparently just brutes.

Perhaps women should remember that next time they choose to be alone in a room with a male stranger.

19 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Oh, the all men bad thing.

No one objects to a bit of masculinity when it's a MAN going into a burning building to rescue people, or a MAN in a war being a hero, but when it's related to a woman, men are apparently just brutes.

Perhaps women should remember that next time they choose to be alone in a room with a male stranger.

To help ypu understand the difference between Masculinty and Toxic masculinty.

 

Women and children are often victimized by toxic masculinity, through domestic violence and other violence, but men are victimized by it as well. Toxic masculinity stunts their cognitive, intellectual, and emotional growth. This damage is part of what fuels the victimization of women.

 

By rejecting anything stereotypically feminine, men and boys are taught to reject an essential part of themselves, something that is to be valued. What’s more, these allegedly female traits are often ones that help us all get along in society, things like compassion, empathy, even politeness. A man or boy displaying these traits can invite ridicule.

Edited January 6, 20206 yr by RJRS1301

44 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

To help ypu understand the difference between Masculinty and Toxic masculinty.

 

Women and children are often victimized by toxic masculinity, through domestic violence and other violence, but men are victimized by it as well. Toxic masculinity stunts their cognitive, intellectual, and emotional growth. This damage is part of what fuels the victimization of women.

 

By rejecting anything stereotypically feminine, men and boys are taught to reject an essential part of themselves, something that is to be valued. What’s more, these allegedly female traits are often ones that help us all get along in society, things like compassion, empathy, even politeness. A man or boy displaying these traits can invite ridicule.

I'm well aware that all people have both male and female elements within them. I deny that compassion, empathy, even politeness are "female" traits as they are IMO human traits. Playing with dolls is IMO a female trait and playing with guns is IMO a male trait.

I don't know about now, but 40 years ago female and male traits were easily seen in a kindergarten when the kids had free play time- girls and boys were very different.

 

A man or boy displaying these traits can invite ridicule.

That is IMO because some people are horrible bullies. Even women can invite ridicule for such traits as I found when I was working in a female dominated occupation. The idea that all women are caring lovely people is a myth.

 

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

In a world where many men have had their lives ruined by women's lies, I need more evidence than has been presented before I believe a woman saying she was raped. If that seems hard, blame the liars for creating doubt.

 

 

 

The Israel public and media have turned against these scumbags and from their arrogant and gloating behaviour have seen them for the pieces $h!t that they are.

 

A couple of Israeli reporters interviewed girl and believe her side of the story. No one is going to present you with any more evidence I'm afraid as no one is trying to convince you that she was raped. If it was a case of one individual male I'd tend to side with you but no way when there were twelve of the vile bastards.

 

If you do want evidence trawl the internet and read the different reports on the subject. However we both know that if you are seeking proof none is going to be forthcoming. But so far no one has seen hair nor hide of the video of her supposedly enjoying the experience. So that was a lie we were subjected to and where there is one lie there are bound to be others where criminality is involved.

 

I've been to Greece, it's a very macho orientated society and believe me you do not want to fall foul of the law. They are not soft touches like the UK plod are.

 

Some of these Latin countries' attitudes to male social dominance are not far removed from that of their Islamic neighbours in nearby Turkey and North Africa. When I was a visitor to Spain and Greece years ago they never even let their women out without a chaperone. That's why the local lads used to target English girls but did not necessarily rape or gang bang 'em.

21 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

 

 

The Israel public and media have turned against these scumbags and from their arrogant and gloating behaviour have seen them for the pieces $h!t that they are.

 

A couple of Israeli reporters interviewed girl and believe her side of the story. No one is going to present you with any more evidence I'm afraid as no one is trying to convince you that she was raped. If it was a case of one individual male I'd tend to side with you but no way when there were twelve of the vile bastards.

 

If you do want evidence trawl the internet and read the different reports on the subject. However we both know that if you are seeking proof none is going to be forthcoming. But so far no one has seen hair nor hide of the video of her supposedly enjoying the experience. So that was a lie we were subjected to and where there is one lie there are bound to be others where criminality is involved.

 

I've been to Greece, it's a very macho orientated society and believe me you do not want to fall foul of the law. They are not soft touches like the UK plod are.

 

Some of these Latin countries' attitudes to male social dominance are not far removed from that of their Islamic neighbours in nearby Turkey and North Africa. When I was a visitor to Spain and Greece years ago they never even let their women out without a chaperone. That's why the local lads used to target English girls but did not necessarily rape or gang bang 'em.

Even without a VDO of her enjoying it, without proof her claims can not justify a conviction. Not for nothing do courts require proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

From google

Attributed to Benjamin Franklin

That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved.

10 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Even without a VDO of her enjoying it, without proof her claims can not justify a conviction. Not for nothing do courts require proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

From google

Attributed to Benjamin Franklin

That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved.

So, shouldn't that apply equally to the girl? Where's the evidence that she lied?

 

 

Edited January 6, 20206 yr by DannyCarlton

5 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

So, shouldn't that apply equally to the girl?

Of course. If there is any doubt that she is lying, she should be found not guilty. Every conviction should be on proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Ergo, both she and the 12 could be released without conviction.

 

Edited January 6, 20206 yr by thaibeachlovers

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

Of course. If she can provide proof beyond a reasonable doubt that she spoke the truth, she should be proven innocent of the charges facing her.

 

That's not how justice systems work. Innocent until proven guilty. It's up to the court to prove beyond reasonable doubt that she lied. Something they clearly haven't done.

1 minute ago, DannyCarlton said:

That's not how justice systems work. Innocent until proven guilty. It's up to the court to prove beyond reasonable doubt that she lied. Something they clearly haven't done.

Agreed, which is why I changed my previous post.

4 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

So, shouldn't that apply equally to the girl? Where's the evidence that she lied?

Too true, She's the one charges have been leveled against, she's the one on bail, the one not allowed to leave the country and the one facing a year in a Cyprus monkey house.

 

While the liberty taking Israelis bully boys have been allowed to go home and have been seen celebrating what they consider to be a triumph even though their fellow citizens have seen them for the deviant perverted pigs they actually are.

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Agreed, which is why I changed my previous post.

Responding to your changed post, that's the whole point of this thread, the injustice has been done to the girl.

 

Whether the boys are guilty or not, we'll probably never conclusively know. Rape trials in many countries collapse because of insufficient evidence, her word against theirs, but to then put the girl on trial for making a false claim is absurd.

3 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Responding to your changed post, that's the whole point of this thread, the injustice has been done to the girl.

 

Whether the boys are guilty or not, we'll probably never conclusively know. Rape trials in many countries collapse because of insufficient evidence, her word against theirs, but to then put the girl on trial for making a false claim is absurd.

That girl needs to be brought home and receive treatment.. 

 

That girl I knew years ago who was a rape victim and who killed herself in Australia also needed help but AFAIK did not receive any. The shame and a lack of sympathetic counselling drove her to it. 

 

Even her so called female friends turned on her calling her a slag and saying she was asking for it. But we who saw what happened know that that was not the case and those remarks were just pure evil female spite and in one case jealousy.

 

That taught me how nasty women can be when it suits them.

On 12/30/2019 at 4:03 AM, z42 said:

Any woman who falsely accuses a man of rape and is proven to have done so should get the maximum sentence that the wrongly accused would have got.

Women like that damage the confidence that real victims would potentially have in bringing their ordeal to the attention of the authorities.

Perhaps a little more. 

On 1/6/2020 at 11:00 AM, DannyCarlton said:

That's not how justice systems work. Innocent until proven guilty. It's up to the court to prove beyond reasonable doubt that she lied. Something they clearly haven't done.

Did she not admit she made the story up? 
 

 

This story is over. She got a suspended 3 month sentence and has gone home. Thread about that elsewhere on world news.

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

This story is over. She got a suspended 3 month sentence and has gone home. Thread about that elsewhere on world news.

There is an appeal lodged, so the story is not over, leagally, and probaly never will be for her

1 minute ago, RJRS1301 said:

There is an appeal lodged, so the story is not over, leagally, and probaly never will be for her

I was referring to the thread. There is a more recent thread to continue the conversation on.

42 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Did she not admit she made the story up? 
 

 

No.

3 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

No.

She withdrew the complaint which amounts to the same thing, legally speaking, IMO.

Don't start with the "she was coerced stuff in response to this post as I'm well aware of all that. I'm just saying legally, which doesn't mean factually, or the truth.

Edited January 8, 20206 yr by thaibeachlovers

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

She withdrew the complaint which amounts to the same thing, legally speaking, IMO.

Don't start with the "she was coerced stuff in response to this post as I'm well aware of all that. I'm just saying legally, which doesn't mean factually, or the truth.

She withdrew her statement under 7 hours of interrogation by the police when she had no legal representation present. That would be inadmissable in court in the majority of countries in the world.