Is Thailand Going Down In Flames?

[uptou]

i think for most travellers,& short time tourists the military coup was just a fart in the wind.i dont think most people have the problems of thailand on there mind when they're sipping a chang or two.

its simple for me,if i still have the cash to pay for the visas then i'll stay.if not,i'll go home & work.

[cdnvic]

Most tourists speaks good English.

Normally I'd never bother nitpicking but considering the context in which it was presented.....

[KhunMarco]

Most tourists speaks good English.

Normally I'd never bother nitpicking but considering the context in which it was presented.....

Ouch, punch under the belt

[jdinasia]

do you HAVE to learn Thai? no! But after 8 years someone SHOULD be reasonably proficient. The point is not that you have to learn Thai ... but whining about tellers (low paid corporate job) in Patong (sex tourist heaven) don't speak English well enough for you! Most of the tourists in Phuket don't speak English that well either!

Have English skills gotten worse at banks in Patong? Dunno ... The currency exchange folks do ok.

Police corruption? again ... seems to be getting better ... or at least not worse

The tourist thing? Real tourists aren't affected.

Life gets progressivly easier here ... not harder.

Have you even read my posts?

Real tourists? What are real tourists? And don't come with some BS about single men vs families, they are all tourists with the same basic needs.

Did you call 1103? Of course not.

Most tourists speaks good English. And again go to your local police station and have a cup of coffee and listen to what's going on there.

Stop living your life inside your little house and look out the window.

If you are that good at thai, call 1103 and don't press 9 for english and then explain to me why I can't reach youtube. Of course you will not do that. It's very different speaking thai and just be able to order your meal from your local restaurant. Since when do you need to talk to the exchange folks? You small talk with them? In my experience people just hand over money and get baht and a receipt back.

Real tourists ... as defined earlier ... those that come for a week to a month ... not affected by the visa restrictions Even most backpackers as opposed to folks that live here as tourists ... which by definition isn't tourism

Again ... no need for me to ever be in a police station here I ride 500+km's a week here ... never gotten nabbed for cash ... the few bar owners I know have no issues with the cops here etc etc

Tell us about your experiences with corruption ... and any empirical evidence that you have that corruption is increasing!

Am I going to do your work with Maxnet? no ... if it REALLY bothers you then spend 5 minutes and set your computer up to access it Have I dealt with maxnet numerous times? Yes Re-setting up my router etc when I changed subscription levels ... fairly easy to deal with:)

"Most tourists speaks good English" <sic> is just &lt;deleted&gt;. Most are not from countries where English is the first language

Again ... life is good, calm here even!

ps ... I see you reached someone with MaxNet that speaks "good English"

Edited April 4, 2007 by jdinasia

[Creeper]

........Sihanoukville is a potential gold mine....the next Pattaya....but a lot of changes will have to take place to make it happen.

Would you really wish another Pattaya on the people of Cambodia, look at the mess the original Pattaya is in.

No thanks, give me Pattaya 15 years ago, ok, but now........................................

[Hobox]

Real tourists ... as defined earlier ... those that come for a week to a month ... not affected by the visa restrictions Even most backpackers as opposed to folks that live here as tourists ... which by definition isn't tourism

Again ... no need for me to ever be in a police station here I ride 500+km's a week here ... never gotten nabbed for cash ... the few bar owners I know have no issues with the cops here etc etc

Tell us about your experiences with corruption ... and any empirical evidence that you have that corruption is increasing!

Am I going to do your work with Maxnet? no ... if it REALLY bothers you then spend 5 minutes and set your computer up to access it Have I dealt with maxnet numerous times? Yes Re-setting up my router etc when I changed subscription levels ... fairly easy to deal with:)

"Most tourists speaks good English" <sic> is just &lt;deleted&gt;. Most are not from countries where English is the first language

Again ... life is good, calm here even!

Sigh. Sorry my first language obviously isn't english.

Most tourists speak good English, better? By good English I mean understandable English

You really start to annoy me. My EXAMPLE with MaxNET was menat for you not to help me with the problem, but show that thai language skills aren't that helpful always. AS I STATED BEFORE, YOUTUBE HAS BEEN CUT BY ICT! (See the thread I referred to earlier)

Tired of this discussion with you, get some own experiences instead of unfounded opinions and listen to people who stayed here longer then you. I know your type, whatever someone show or tell you, you always know better so no point in me correcting or educating you.

My advice stands:

*Read the newspapers

*Look how police treats tourists in need for an example.

*Read the visa section on TV and you'll see that the strange 90 day rule have started to affect "real tourists" as I'm sure it was not intended to do.

I can promise you that the majority of bar/restaurant/hotel owners have had some issue with the police. Be it that it could be small and insignificant.

I'm happy that you haven't experienced the backside of LOS yet and hopefully you never will.

[aussiestyle1983]

Is Thailand Going Down In Flames?, (As a viable destination for foreigners)

No, not in flames. As long as the coup government is in and travel warnings are issued and there are still the OTHER problems that need fixing, tourism will never be and is not currently at its full potential, however, MOST tourist who want to come here still will and still do, its just the very few paranoid tourists that will look for other destinations.

If the question was "Is Thailand going down in flames? (As a viable destination for long term residents and retirees)" Well then, the answer would be yes! But thats another thread all together

Edited April 4, 2007 by aussiestyle1983

[jdinasia]

Sigh. Sorry my first language obviously isn't english.

Most tourists speak good English, better? By good English I mean understandable English

You really start to annoy me. My EXAMPLE with MaxNET was menat for you not to help me with the problem, but show that thai language skills aren't that helpful always. AS I STATED BEFORE, YOUTUBE HAS BEEN CUT BY ICT! (See the thread I referred to earlier)

Tired of this discussion with you, get some own experiences instead of unfounded opinions and listen to people who stayed here longer then you. I know your type, whatever someone show or tell you, you always know better so no point in me correcting or educating you.

My advice stands:

*Read the newspapers

*Look how police treats tourists in need for an example.

*Read the visa section on TV and you'll see that the strange 90 day rule have started to affect "real tourists" as I'm sure it was not intended to do.

I can promise you that the majority of bar/restaurant/hotel owners have had some issue with the police. Be it that it could be small and insignificant.

I'm happy that you haven't experienced the backside of LOS yet and hopefully you never will.

OUCH ....

Guess my 4 years here don't equal your 8 years here My years of learning Thai and actually speaking with people must account for nothing as well !!!!

I asked for empirical evidence of corruption getting worse and you respond with this ... oh well

I am sure many if not most bar/restaurant/hotel owners have had some issue with the police (the same issues anywhere else in the world)

and no ... most tourists don't 'speak good english' <again sic> They don't even speak English well. Add to that the varied EXTREME accents from native English speakers and it is amazing that anyone communicates in English. <not saying my accent is better than other people's>

If I took your "I know your type" and reversed it .... well ... I won't. Suffice it to say; 4 years of actually communicating with people versus 8 years of not doing so WILL create a difference in experience

I am not better than you ... nor worse than you ... but your vision seems to be skewed by Patong!

[JR Texas]

Sigh. Sorry my first language obviously isn't english.

Most tourists speak good English, better? By good English I mean understandable English

You really start to annoy me. My EXAMPLE with MaxNET was menat for you not to help me with the problem, but show that thai language skills aren't that helpful always. AS I STATED BEFORE, YOUTUBE HAS BEEN CUT BY ICT! (See the thread I referred to earlier)

Tired of this discussion with you, get some own experiences instead of unfounded opinions and listen to people who stayed here longer then you. I know your type, whatever someone show or tell you, you always know better so no point in me correcting or educating you.

My advice stands:

*Read the newspapers

*Look how police treats tourists in need for an example.

*Read the visa section on TV and you'll see that the strange 90 day rule have started to affect "real tourists" as I'm sure it was not intended to do.

I can promise you that the majority of bar/restaurant/hotel owners have had some issue with the police. Be it that it could be small and insignificant.

I'm happy that you haven't experienced the backside of LOS yet and hopefully you never will.

OUCH ....

Guess my 4 years here don't equal your 8 years here My years of learning Thai and actually speaking with people must account for nothing as well !!!!

I asked for empirical evidence of corruption getting worse and you respond with this ... oh well

I am sure many if not most bar/restaurant/hotel owners have had some issue with the police (the same issues anywhere else in the world)

and no ... most tourists don't 'speak good english' <again sic> They don't even speak English well. Add to that the varied EXTREME accents from native English speakers and it is amazing that anyone communicates in English. <not saying my accent is better than other people's>

If I took your "I know your type" and reversed it .... well ... I won't. Suffice it to say; 4 years of actually communicating with people versus 8 years of not doing so WILL create a difference in experience

I am not better than you ... nor worse than you ... but your vision seems to be skewed by Patong!

JR Texas: Is Thailand Going Down in Flames? What does this have to do with Englsissishi Grahammer? Many of us write in haste and make mistakes..........no big deal, except to my fourth grade English teacher!

Maybe it is time for each person just to give his/her opinion without reference to any other opinions that have been posted previously. Please check my spehlllinggngn. Thnk U

[Hobox]

Suffice it to say; 4 years of actually communicating with people versus 8 years of not doing so WILL create a difference in experience

And where in my posts can you read that I haven't communicated with the locals? Please read them again, third time I tell you the same thing. This is exactly what I meant with my previous post, but just to make it clear again.

I can't read or write thai. I can speak basic thai. I can't (and few can) make myself understood without a lot of misunderstandings over the phone.

Edit PS.

Right now I have guys here to fix my aircon. And do you think my basic skills in thai can help me? Of course not, as after a couple of tries with some phrases I finally figured aout that they cannot speak thai either. Burmese repairmen

Edited April 4, 2007 by Hobox

[Heng]

Recommend CC 4 Service for air con maintainence. They have branches nationwide and their crews are all Thai.

[Heng]

Cambodia. Ya, last I heard, foreign residents had house guards armed with AK47s. Nice way to live.

Went to Phnom Pehn in January and although did not like the place I can assure you foreign residents do not need armed guards there and you can walk on nights without any danger.

Some of my friends have Thai owned factories in Cambodia/Kampuchea and YES, the factory guards are armed. Night time armed theft... even from ice factories and canneries... are always a threat.

[jdinasia]

Cambodia. Ya, last I heard, foreign residents had house guards armed with AK47s. Nice way to live.

Went to Phnom Pehn in January and although did not like the place I can assure you foreign residents do not need armed guards there and you can walk on nights without any danger.

Some of my friends have Thai owned factories in Cambodia/Kampuchea and YES, the factory guards are armed. Night time armed theft... even from ice factories and canneries... are always a threat.

add to that landmines and kidnapping for ransom from schools etc ...!

Makes it sound like a GREAT place to live!

[PeaceBlondie]

JR Texas: Maybe it is time for each person just to give his/her opinion without reference to any other opinions that have been posted previously.

More good advice from Texans including from Heng.

[Ijustwannateach]

I find it strange that this argument about whether or not Thailand is losing its place as a destination for foreigners (and what does that mean? Residents? Retirees? Students? Tourists? Consultants?) has become so bogged down in a discussion over whether simple services are available in the English language. Surely if someone were determined to live here, he'd master the language and/or find ways around that need (for example, by having friends). I think most of the long-term posters here have managed to find a solution for themselves, and I doubt anyone would answer the question the OP asks based on whether or not an automatic dial-system at a company or government agency (not the most user-friendly of interfaces even in our native countries and languages) has adequate English support.

As far as visas: some of my friends and associates are beginning to feel real effects and inconvenience. Also, there will be a number of cowboy teachers who are forced to bear more and more expense on account of visa-running since they are not fully legal teachers here. I feel sorry for both groups, but who do they have to blame, really? They are already in many senses violating the spirit of the law (which says that a tourist visa is for tourists and not really residents). That doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for them- I would hate to see some of my friends have to leave from these bureaucratic considerations. It's too bad Thailand doesn't have some middle level of visa for semi-long-term stay foreigners with plenty of money who aren't old enough to qualify for retirement (they could raise more tax that way, too). Maybe they'll consider this if the economic effects of lots of people leaving are severe enough. Maybe not.

I don't think anyone should gloat, though- because the mark can always be set higher. Perhaps sooner or later people will only be allowed to have 90 days every year, or two years. Perhaps teachers will be required to have Ph.D.'s in education *and*their field in order to teach elementary school kids conversational English for 25K baht a month. I'm not ruling anything out- and so I don't gloat over the people who are having trouble now, and think a big dose of hubris might be in the future for those foreigners who have the attitude "too bad for them, they should be more like me!"

I think that as a result of this pressure on the less-secure foreigners here, my life ironically becomes better at the same time for a complex of reasons, but that doesn't make me rejoice at their problems- and they're one less scapegoat between me and the antinationalistic trends that may exist in Thai society or government.

"S"

[chanchao]

Excuse the dramatic title (and I don't mean to sound like a troll), but what do you think? Is Thailand on a path to self-destruction or are the recent hiccups only a temporary roadside attraction in the annals of history?

No.

[steveromagnino]

I find it strange that this argument about whether or not Thailand is losing its place as a destination for foreigners (and what does that mean? Residents? Retirees? Students? Tourists? Consultants?) has become so bogged down in a discussion over whether simple services are available in the English language.

Extremely good point. Living in Korea and Japan, the standards and quantity of english outside of the tourist areas is FAR less than Thailand. Yet both countries do ok; ironically you can find webboards with almost the exact posts letter for letter proposing unmitigated failure and doom and gloom there too from the worldly wise refuse of the first world.

Just an FYI....the high spending tourists coming to Thailand, by and large, do not speak english as a first language. Try Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Korean, Hindi, Russian. The majority of high spending tourists have little requirement to deal with an airconditioning crew incidentally :-)

Can we be clear; someone who 'lives here' for 8 years is not a typical tourist no matter what the VISA status, at least not compared to the typical once a year for a week type tourist. They are a resident, an expat, a long stay visitor, but they aren't really a typical tourist. Therefore, should any experiences like struggling to get around for this group be relevant to the genuine tourist who comes for less than a few days a year? Methinks not.

Incidentally, how any of the people I know who have been here longer than a year could not be fluent in Thai amazes me. I can only assume they try not to learn how to speak it. And as far as english fluency goes, it is getting better, not worse. Even taxis can say 'hey you you want massart' now, before they just said 'เฮยู ยูวนท์แม็ซซาจ'

I consider that to be a massive mindshift.

[Ijustwannateach]

^to be fair (although, I think the language issue is still a side point) I think there is more of a tourist ghetto here cushioning some foreigners from learning more of the language. In Japan and Korea, the number of people in any environment who can speak enough English to have a conversation is pretty low- here the Thais are actually quite good at English by comparison, as you point out- and this ironically leads to fewer foreigners who speak Thai.

"S"

[britmaveric]

Don't think so - everything is cyclic and I believe favourable conditions will once again dominate. (just a matter of time)

[seagull]

Poor, poor, little boy. How dare the subservient locals let their English skills slip.

When my daughter's teacher have to ask her 8 year old students for help to talk english to a parent I think it speaks for itself. You still don't get my point, I can get by in a bank, but the regular foreign visitor can't, and I though this thread were about them.

Sadly it's almost impossible to have opinions here and talk about self experienced events without being ridiculed by the guys who-know-it-all-just-got-here-speaks-perfect-thai.

During my years down here the only two lessons I really learnt is that I know nothing about Thailand and will never understand it and secondly everyone who says they know, know nothing.

I understand how you feeled. They comes charging fully armed to their teeth, ready to destroy and stomped on you as long as they do not agreed to your opinions. When ready with a topic or reply, be sure to put on your personal "firewall", or full metal jacket.

[qwertz]

^to be fair (although, I think the language issue is still a side point) I think there is more of a tourist ghetto here cushioning some foreigners from learning more of the language. In Japan and Korea, the number of people in any environment who can speak enough English to have a conversation is pretty low- here the Thais are actually quite good at English by comparison, as you point out- and this ironically leads to fewer foreigners who speak Thai.

"S"

Doesn't this apply to expats in any non-English speaking country? Here in east Germany I couldn't get through a day without speaking German. The level of English knowledge is on a par with Thailand's and I'm called in as an interpreter for Scandinavians on a regular basis. When I run extra tuition for kids I only have to look at their homework books after their teachers have checked them to pick out dozens of overlooked mistakes.

[KhunMarco]

me no have mut ploblem to Thailand with me English My flend you, why ploblem?

[bendix]

^to be fair (although, I think the language issue is still a side point) I think there is more of a tourist ghetto here cushioning some foreigners from learning more of the language. In Japan and Korea, the number of people in any environment who can speak enough English to have a conversation is pretty low- here the Thais are actually quite good at English by comparison, as you point out- and this ironically leads to fewer foreigners who speak Thai.

"S"

And to add to this, didn't I see TOT arrivals figures for tourists recently which showed that the top three countries from where tourists to Thailand came from in 2006 were China, Korea and Japan?

Perhaps Hobox's banktellers have been too busy learning Mandarin to keep up with their English lessons . .

[LoveDaBlues]

Poor, poor, little boy. How dare the subservient locals let their English skills slip.

When my daughter's teacher have to ask her 8 year old students for help to talk english to a parent I think it speaks for itself. You still don't get my point, I can get by in a bank, but the regular foreign visitor can't, and I though this thread were about them.

Sadly it's almost impossible to have opinions here and talk about self experienced events without being ridiculed by the guys who-know-it-all-just-got-here-speaks-perfect-thai.

During my years down here the only two lessons I really learnt is that I know nothing about Thailand and will never understand it and secondly everyone who says they know, know nothing.

slow learner

[LoveDaBlues]

Poor, poor, little boy. How dare the subservient locals let their English skills slip.

When my daughter's teacher have to ask her 8 year old students for help to talk english to a parent I think it speaks for itself. You still don't get my point, I can get by in a bank, but the regular foreign visitor can't, and I though this thread were about them.

Sadly it's almost impossible to have opinions here and talk about self experienced events without being ridiculed by the guys who-know-it-all-just-got-here-speaks-perfect-thai.

During my years down here the only two lessons I really learnt is that I know nothing about Thailand and will never understand it and secondly everyone who says they know, know nothing.

I understand how you feeled. They comes charging fully armed to their teeth, ready to destroy and stomped on you as long as they do not agreed to your opinions. When ready with a topic or reply, be sure to put on your personal "firewall", or full metal jacket.

How dare someone disagree with another's point of view.

[solent01]

Tell it how it is Bendix, I like your style

[qwertz]

LOS has a certain attractiveness that no amount of Thais or tourists can spoil. Can't name it, can't quantify it but you feel it as soon as you arrive and you miss it when you leave. I've only known one person in all my trips there who never went back a second time (as far as I know).

[Nebukanezar]

For me it's all good. My only gripes are;

1) The undeserved strength of the Thai Baht, I REALLY HOPE IT CRASHES

2) The new visa on Arrival treaty with Russia, totally F'ed Pattaya up. I'm glad I don't live there anymore We went to visit and enjoy a few nights a the Royal Cliff over the new year and the whole city was filled with rude scuzzy looking package russians with their young children (morons). Then shortly afterworlds 2 russian hookers got shot up on the beach in Jomtien. Pattaya was a great place up until the last couple years. Even though now I could never live there again because I'm engaged and my fiance' wouldn't be comfortable, I stilled loved the place..got many fond memories there.

[beechguy]

JR Texas: Maybe it is time for each person just to give his/her opinion without reference to any other opinions that have been posted previously.

More good advice from Texans including from Heng.

Just a personal opinion, but I don't think they came up with such a great plan on the visa exempt entries. But, also how much did they really change the other visa regulations for most people. So, they just go get a tourist visa now, instead the exempt entries. And I don't think Non-Imm-"O" visas are that much more difficult to get for most people. Are they? I don't understand all of the whining that's gone on.

Anyway, I don't know about the other S.E. Asian countries, I'm not interested. But, for comparison the Middle Eastern and African countries seem to be much more difficult to deal with. As if anybody wants to really be there anyway. So, for me I'll just adjust my plans if necessary, and stick with Thailand for my long term plans.

Good luck whether you decide to stay or go!

Edited April 4, 2007 by beechguy

[bingobongo]

For me it's all good. My only gripes are;

1) The undeserved strength of the Thai Baht, I REALLY HOPE IT CRASHES

2) The new visa on Arrival treaty with Russia, totally F'ed Pattaya up. I'm glad I don't live there anymore We went to visit and enjoy a few nights a the Royal Cliff over the new year and the whole city was filled with rude scuzzy looking package russians with their young children (morons). Then shortly afterworlds 2 russian hookers got shot up on the beach in Jomtien. Pattaya was a great place up until the last couple years. Even though now I could never live there again because I'm engaged and my fiance' wouldn't be comfortable, I stilled loved the place..got many fond memories there.

sorry there Nebkanezar but Russia has one of the greatest education systems in the world in math and science, so calling their kids "morons" would be erroneous

besides when has the thai school system resulted in any great leaders or inventions? Pad thai does not count

if you are going to flame on farang children, please know your subject matter first and get over your own insecurities before you flame on all Russians or farangs in general