Us Able To Prosecute American Sex Crimes

[sriracha john]

  I can go on and on.

you certainly can....

ease up on the sauce a little and it will sound less like ranting....

[sriracha john]

I saw several posts above that said the law would prosecute for sex with someone under 16, but I think it can prosecute for sex with someone under 18, regardless of the age of consent in the state you live and regardless of the age of consent in the country you (plan to) travel to.

You are correct; it is anyone under 18.

I also think that the law is being used not to convict, but to coerce and extract a guilty plea, so as to avoid having its constitutionality tested in the courts.

There have been 4 cases thus far using this law. The case I cited, that brought this thread back to life, was the first case where the defendent pleaded not guilty. The other three pled guilty and avoided a trial.

[gburns57au]

This appears to be the law in the US....may give some on a guide to a more thorough search...As I am not an American I was flying a bit blind.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 117 > § 2423

§ 2423. Transportation of minors

Release date: 2004-08-06

[a]...... Transportation With Intent To Engage in Criminal Sexual Activity.— A person who knowingly transports an individual who has not attained the age of 18 years in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any commonwealth, territory or possession of the United States, with intent that the individual engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.

...... Travel With Intent To Engage in Sexual Act With a Juvenile.— A person who travels in interstate commerce, or conspires to do so, or a United States citizen or an alien admitted for permanent residence in the United States who travels in foreign commerce, or conspires to do so, for the purpose of engaging in any sexual act (as defined in section 2246) with a person under 18 years of age that would be in violation of chapter 109A if the sexual act occurred in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.

Davyo....can you show me anything that proves that you can be punished for the same offence twice.....I know for a fact that it doesnt happen in the Australian Justice system.

Edited April 5, 2005 by gburns57au

[Ijustwannateach]

They found photographs, letters, and a map; that is a lot more than "suspicion".  And why should they treat him differently because he is 87 and in a wheelchair?  The girls were ages 9 and 12!  He wants to be known as "Uncle Johnny" and had naked pictures of other children as well.

It is unbelievable to me that some of you are more cocerened with the reach of US law rather than the otherwise impunity of foreign pedophiles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I'm a bit behind on this thread.

All right, Kat. So what happens when they decide to make a federal law that says something like "No one is allowed to cross the U.S. Border to another Land and/or Return (and thus engage in Interstate Commerce) unless they have signed loyalty oaths to the current President of the United States?" Such a law would technically be legal in Congress according to its Constitutional powers, under the same interpretation that allows these "pre-emptive" arrests.

I can't imagine, considering how little is spent on social programs in the U.S., that the federal government gives a fig for foreign minors. This *is* an attempt to expand powers, whether you like it that way or not.

I'm amazed that someone as little fond of the sort of government we have now- a government that passed something like the *Patriot Act*, for god's sake- would be so naive and trusting.

As I said- a specific law targetting this specific type of criminal- even if it has to be a constitutional amendment- would be better than this "We control everything when you cross our national line" BS. Way too dangerous.

"Steven"

[britmaveric]

Pedophile is a pedophile - end of story. We've got a twisted lot on here - defending a sicko predators.

[Pattaya_Fox]

Children no matter which country they live in need protection from these sick perverts who seem not to be able to have a relationship with an adult.

Obviously they do not have the necessary abilities to conduct a proper sexual relationship with a grown up and therefore have to impose their will on young immature defenseless kids.

It is good to see that as technology embraces the globe that the world is becoming a `smaller` place to hide for these so called men.

Somebody asked the question `is there a reward for turning these people over to the authorities?`..

I would say forget the reward...if you are sure of your facts and a child is being abused...then turn him in and let the law take it`s course. You never know.....that child may thank you one day.

[Gazza]

Pedophile is a pedophile - end of story. We've got a twisted lot on here - defending a sicko predators.

I agree with you Brit. I'm all for tougher sentences for all criminals.

So what if they have to serve time twice for the same offence. Just change the adage to "If you can't do the double time, don't do the crime".

[Gazza]

Somebody asked the question `is there a reward for turning these people over to the authorities?`..

I would say forget the reward...if you are sure of your facts and a child is being abused...then turn him in and let the law take it`s course.  You never know.....that child may thank you one day.

The reward would be the satisfaction that a Paedo is behind bars and a few kids don't get to suffer further abuse.

[gburns57au]

Pedophile is a pedophile - end of story. We've got a twisted lot on here - defending a sicko predators.

I agree with you Brit. I'm all for tougher sentences for all criminals.

So what if they have to serve time twice for the same offence. Just change the adage to "If you can't do the double time, don't do the crime".

nobody should be punished twice for the same offence.....but people who molest kids should go to jail....irrespective of age, gender or social status. Just because a guy is in a wheelchair and 80+ years old, doesnt mean he isnt capable of child molestation. I think that they should serve the time in the country the offences took place in.....some of Asia's prisons makes western ones look like 5 star hotels.

[DaveYo]

AOC--- No the Postal Service does not have the right to open and or inspect your mail unless certain events take place giving them the reason to open such. Postal Service is much different than when it comes to Airports.

Airports, yes you are subject to search and their search is for deadly items that can bring down a plane or cause serious injury to all aboard. The same applies to Customs if certain articles are declared upon entry, but for the most part, certain criteria's have to be met before they haul you over. One can simply have some fruit, and fruity dog goes by and makes a bark or two indicating such is in that persons possession. Another is illegal dope of which dopey dog walks by and presto indicates you got something illegal.

When one boards the plane, you don't go thru Customs leaving the Original port of Departure. You go thru Customs upon entry in another port at Destination. with the thousands going thru at the Destination of Entry, for the most part Customs search is bypassed.

Last of all on that issue ALL are made aware of such search so there is no surprises or claims of Illegal searches or need of such warrant. So essentially the person waives such right to the search if they want to board or leave via plane.

As of the cases that this LongArm of the Law applied there are about 4 of them within the last year and a half. Someone from San Francisco got nailed on this in Hawaii, after his trip to Cambodia for what ever he did there, and as of the others besides the most recent one, they were from various parts of the country.

Someone just posted some articles here on the Law. Now fellas if you read it very carefully, you can see how VAGUE this law is and how far reaching it goes. In both chapters here it mentions CONSPIRACY, INTENT, OR ENGAGE IN ANY ACTIVITY!!!!!. Not to mention COMMERCE!!!!!!!!!!! Now just what is conspiracy, or Intent. I can say something like this to someone, out of the blue as an example----> Holy Cow, look at that chickie in that mini, all dressed up to kill, Man I sure would like to have a piece of that action. Unquote. Now this person appears to be over 18 but you not know if this person is over or under. So now you mosey on over and strike up a conversation and blah blah. Say things click and away you go with the girl.

Now is this Intent, or Conspiracy or are you engaged in doing something illegal.

Catch my drift here. The way the LONG ARM of USA LAW, and its written legal chapters as I see here, THEY can bust your nuts right there on the SPOT!!!!!!!!! Yet when does this VAGUED law begin or when does such cease concerning you. Taking pics of her being the same girl above is that illegal or not??????

Many of you members here really are twisted in your mind concerning the words Pedophile vs sex offender.

Pedophiles if I remember correctly only focus on young minors. Be it of simply only pics, or doing such illegally, or shooting their chit chat. A sex offender is different. They do things totally differently and are not anywhere near Pedophiles even in the way the Pedo thinks. There was a member here who pointed it out in very good detail, yet many of you FORGOT.

For males, what defense do we have if some woman merely complains and makes such accusation against you. She does not have to prove it according to many of the laws now present in the USA. Yet your NAME GETS SPLASHED, but does her name get splashed in the news?????? You can also be charged with inappropriate touch on a member of the opposite sex if one wants to be a real nutcracker against you. Whats even worse my fellow friends, in some states, say supposingly you did something whether it was intentional or not, they can still accuse you of such 20 years later if they wish to nutcrack you. I know in the Philippines, the police and prosecutors will not attempt to charge you with such offense past 72 hours after the alleged incident unless special circumstances come into play which rarely occurs.

Society of males and the way a male thinks concerning females is way out of line. Males have a strong tendency to protect females at whatever cost. Now is this via natural means or because of the way you think or is it societys way of thinking???

Anyway I stand behind my belief that the USA Long Arm Law has gone too far and threatens our own basic freedoms and rights period. There are many other laws now that have stripped most of our rights of dignity much less if one accuses you that they need to prove it in court, but again, another member really did hit the nail on the head concerning your chances under such charges of getting acquitted because of the way a bias jury will be thinking etc.

That is why one is blackmailed and falsely accused on other additional charges so the prosecution can force you to plea guilty to minimum of one charge. Example Say you shot someone 4 times ---> and they die, Prosecutors charge you with 4 counts of Murder. How many times does it take to commit just one Murder? much less how many counts of murder should you be facing. To me, I see only one count of Murder regardless how many times you shot the victim. Like I said before and I will say it again, if the prosecution only stuck by the truth and only charged you for what you are accused of doing, they will never win any convictions period. So it becomes so obvious you will most surely face more charges in their efforts to railroad you.

If you ever get arrested by the police, best you keep totally quiet except to ask for a smoke, water or food or to go to the bathroom. In this situation SILENCE IS GOLDEN and RULE NUMBER ONE. Anything else they will use it against you. As for me I would rather make them prove it in court without me saying anything, and then defend myself and even attack the prosecutions charges once the proceedings are under way. The less you say beginning of your arrest till the Court diatribe begins the harder it is for the police and prosecutors to make anything stick much less make any other accusations against you. That is how the Smart ones get acquitted.

So I will remain still neutral in concerning sex crimes since it can very easily be taken out of context and be twisted so much it becomes insane.

Kudos to those who defend the kids and are willing to report such to the police. Besides that you will have to also testify in court and get ripped apart from the lawyers and be questioned in depth down to your soul, and they will tear you literally. Also because of the nature of the crime, your name gets spashed too in the news eventually.

I got better things to do besides hearing some kid tell me this and that. For me-----> I would simply tell them to go to the police and point the right direction to them and forget that scene and move on. I don't want any involvement with it period. To me just the name of the crime or indications of such that may have occurred, makes me hit the brakes and viola I vamoosa outta there first chance I get. I am not helping shito no matter what.

Why, cause I have read in the papers time and time again, of those adults who reported got into another holy mess such as lawsuits etc, and they even lost their jobs plus their reputations etc. No way Jose!!!!!!!!!!! To me the kid is not worth the headaches that follow.

Daveyo

[gburns57au]

AOC---  No the Postal Service does not have the right to open and or inspect your mail unless certain events take place giving them the reason to open such.  Postal Service is much different than when it comes to Airports.

And if requested by a law enforcment agency

     Airports, yes you are subject to search and their search is for deadly items that can bring down a plane or cause serious injury to all aboard.    The same applies to Customs if certain articles are declared upon entry, but for the most part, certain criteria's have to be met before they haul you over.   One can simply have some fruit, and fruity dog goes by and makes a bark or two indicating such is in that persons possession.   Another is illegal dope of which dopey dog walks by and presto indicates you got something illegal.

Airports can detain or search on suspicion alone

Someone just posted some articles here on the Law.   Now fellas if you read it very carefully, you can see how VAGUE this law is and how far reaching it goes.  In both chapters here it mentions CONSPIRACY, INTENT, OR ENGAGE IN ANY ACTIVITY!!!!!.   Not to mention COMMERCE!!!!!!!!!!!     Now just what is conspiracy, or Intent.   I can say something like this to someone, out of the blue as an example---->   Holy Cow, look at that chickie in that mini, all dressed up to kill, Man I sure would like to have a piece of that action. Unquote.      Now this person appears to be over 18 but you not know if this person is over or under.   So now you mosey on over and strike up a conversation and blah blah.   Say things click and away you go with the girl.  

     Now is this Intent, or Conspiracy or are you engaged in doing something illegal.

Catch my drift here.  The way the LONG ARM of USA LAW, and its written legal chapters as I see here, THEY can bust your nuts right there on the SPOT!!!!!!!!!    Yet when does this VAGUED law begin or when does such cease concerning you.  Taking pics of her being the same girl above is that illegal or not??????

You are reading to much into it....The US law I admit is a bit strange in that you can be charged with intent and that can be hard to prove...most other countries you have to commit an offence first. In the case of the posted example....the guy had the intent, had a past history and showed little remorse.

Many of you members here really are twisted in your mind concerning the words Pedophile vs sex offender.

Pedophiles if I remember correctly only focus on young minors.  Be it of simply only pics, or doing such illegally, or shooting their chit chat.   A sex offender is different.  They do things totally differently and are not anywhere near Pedophiles even in the way the Pedo thinks.   There was a member here who pointed it out in very good detail, yet many of you FORGOT.

Good point and I believe I voiced the same opinion before

     For males, what defense do we have if some woman merely complains and makes such accusation against you.   She does not have to prove it according to many of the laws now present in the USA.    Yet your NAME GETS SPLASHED, but does her name get splashed in the news??????   You can also be charged with inappropriate touch on a member of the opposite sex if one wants to be a real nutcracker against you.   Whats even worse my fellow friends, in some states, say supposingly you did something whether it was intentional or not, they can still accuse you of such 20 years later if they wish to nutcrack you.     I know in the Philippines, the police and prosecutors will not attempt to charge you with such offense past 72 hours after the alleged incident unless special circumstances come into play which rarely occurs. 

    

    Society of males and the way a male thinks concerning females is way out of line.   Males have a strong tendency to protect females at whatever cost.   Now is this via natural means or because of the way you think or is it societys way of thinking???

A males ego is what stops the same thing being done against women, however some extremely religious people have laid charges against women even at the risk of being vilified by nearly every othe male in the world

     Anyway I stand behind my belief that the USA Long Arm Law has gone too far and threatens our own basic freedoms and rights period.  There are many other laws now that have stripped most of our rights of dignity much less if one accuses you that they need to prove it in court, but again, another member really did hit the nail on the head concerning your chances under such charges of getting acquitted because of the way a bias jury will be thinking etc.

That is why one is blackmailed and falsely accused on other additional charges so the prosecution can force you to plea guilty to minimum of one charge.   Example  Say you shot someone 4 times ---> and they die,     Prosecutors charge you with 4 counts of Murder.   How many times does it take to commit just one Murder?  much less how many counts of murder should you be facing.  To me, I see only one count of Murder regardless how many times you shot the victim.     Like I said before and I will say it again, if the prosecution only stuck by the truth and only charged you for what you are accused of doing, they will never win any convictions period.  So it becomes so obvious you will most surely face more charges in their efforts to railroad you.

This would only attract one murder charge...

If you ever get arrested by the police, best you keep totally quiet except to ask for a smoke, water or food or to go to the bathroom.  In this situation SILENCE IS GOLDEN and RULE NUMBER ONE.      Anything else they will use it against you.  As for me I would rather make them prove it in court without me saying anything, and then defend myself and even attack the prosecutions charges once the proceedings are under way.  The less you say beginning of your arrest till the Court diatribe begins the harder it is for the police and prosecutors to make anything stick much less make any other accusations against you.  That is how the Smart ones get acquitted.

You must by law give your details to police, name address etc....after that you have the right to remain silent. And yes it is a good idea to maintain that right

   Kudos to those who defend the kids and are willing to report such to the police.  Besides that you will have to also testify in  court and get ripped apart from the lawyers and be questioned in depth down to your soul, and they will tear you literally.  Also because of the nature of the crime, your name gets spashed too in the news eventually.

I got better things to do besides hearing some kid tell me this and that. For me-----> I would simply tell them to go to the police and point the right direction to them and forget that scene and move on. I don't want any involvement with it period. To me just the name of the crime or indications of such that may have occurred, makes me hit the brakes and viola I vamoosa outta there first chance I get. I am not helping shito no matter what.

Why, cause I have read in the papers time and time again, of  those adults who reported got into another holy mess such as lawsuits etc,  and they even lost their jobs plus their reputations etc.   No way Jose!!!!!!!!!!!  To me the kid is not worth the headaches that follow.

Usually witnesses are not subject to exhaustive cross examination, Usually witnesses do not get published in the media, a certain ongoing high profile case is not the normal

Daveyo

Edited April 6, 2005 by gburns57au

[Ijustwannateach]

Pedophile is a pedophile - end of story. We've got a twisted lot on here - defending a sicko predators.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Bush cartel made a major error- they should've dropped the WMD thing from the start and just said there was probably a pedophile somewhere in Iraq- THAT would've straightaway justified bombing, invasion, occupation, and any level of outrage for you, wouldn't it!

Wanting to do the right things to fight crime by the book and in a manner that doesn't threaten political tyranny or encourage U.S. hegemony is not the same as defending criminals. I thought Brits were smarter than this, usually. But I guess we got a twisted lot on here- defending sicko [neocon] predators.

"Steven"

[spacebass]

Pedophile is a pedophile - end of story. We've got a twisted lot on here - defending a sicko predators.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Bush cartel made a major error- they should've dropped the WMD thing from the start and just said there was probably a pedophile somewhere in Iraq- THAT would've straightaway justified bombing, invasion, occupation, and any level of outrage for you, wouldn't it!

Wanting to do the right things to fight crime by the book and in a manner that doesn't threaten political tyranny or encourage U.S. hegemony is not the same as defending criminals. I thought Brits were smarter than this, usually. But I guess we got a twisted lot on here- defending sicko [neocon] predators.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah we all know about teachers too!!!

[sriracha john]

Before we get too carried away with extending this law to anything then what it is, please remember that the government certainly isn't getting too carried away with it. It's been applied in only 4 cases, ALL of which have ended in convictions and guilty findings of abusing children, not even teens. Perhaps we should wait until something is shown to be concrete in these "government conspiracy" plans before jumping on the "our individual rights are being violated" bandwagon.

I'll be first in line to object if the government shows it's stepping out of bounds.

[pedro01]

Pedophiles if I remember correctly only focus on young minors.  Be it of simply only pics, or doing such illegally, or shooting their chit chat.  A sex offender is different.  They do things totally differently and are not anywhere near Pedophiles even in the way the Pedo thinks.  There was a member here who pointed it out in very good detail, yet many of you FORGOT. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Huh ?

What's this "Be it of simply only pics" - posession of pics of kids being abused are just as bad as abusing yourseld.

[Ijustwannateach]

Before we get too carried away with extending this law to anything then what it is, please remember that the government certainly isn't getting too carried away with it. It's been applied in only 4 cases, ALL of which have ended in convictions and guilty findings of abusing children, not even teens. Perhaps we should wait until something is shown to be concrete in these "government conspiracy" plans before jumping on the "our individual rights are being violated" bandwagon.

I'll be first in line to object if the government shows it's stepping out of bounds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough, I suppose. But the current government is infamous now for finding ways to stretch its powers without any solid legal foundations (I assume I don't need to list examples) and so I react against it by default. If we had a normal government at the moment, we could expect it not to abuse its powers and I probably wouldn't care that much.

"Steven"

[britmaveric]

Before we get too carried away with extending this law to anything then what it is, please remember that the government certainly isn't getting too carried away with it. It's been applied in only 4 cases, ALL of which have ended in convictions and guilty findings of abusing children, not even teens. Perhaps we should wait until something is shown to be concrete in these "government conspiracy" plans before jumping on the "our individual rights are being violated" bandwagon.

I'll be first in line to object if the government shows it's stepping out of bounds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough, I suppose. But the current government is infamous now for finding ways to stretch its powers without any solid legal foundations (I assume I don't need to list examples) and so I react against it by default. If we had a normal government at the moment, we could expect it not to abuse its powers and I probably wouldn't care that much.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Naive thinking matey!!! You should judge things seperately and by dragging political rubbish in a pure/simple criminal matter isn't helping the arguement that yank pedo(s) under the yank criminal code will be severely punished if caught. (hence the long arm of the law will have no borders) BTW - this sort of law applies in most Western countries, so don't think you yanks are any more special than the rest of us.

[sriracha john]

Before we get too carried away with extending this law to anything then what it is, please remember that the government certainly isn't getting too carried away with it. It's been applied in only 4 cases, ALL of which have ended in convictions and guilty findings of abusing children, not even teens. Perhaps we should wait until something is shown to be concrete in these "government conspiracy" plans before jumping on the "our individual rights are being violated" bandwagon.

I'll be first in line to object if the government shows it's stepping out of bounds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough, I suppose. But the current government is infamous now for finding ways to stretch its powers without any solid legal foundations (I assume I don't need to list examples) and so I react against it by default. If we had a normal government at the moment, we could expect it not to abuse its powers and I probably wouldn't care that much.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can totally understand your apprehension and am fully aware at how tempting it might be for the government to go overboard. IF it does, I'll join you on the front lines. I hope this just might be the rare time when the government actually does something good. If I thought they were incapable of that, I'd be as much a cynic as Nam Kao.

[DaveYo]

Hey dudes, where have you been??????????? The USA Government has been stepping out of line for QUITE SOME TIME NOW. They even put cameras out in the street watching you walk or mow your lawn or use the satelite to look down on top of your head or even use special infrareds to see inside the house of what your doing and it is crystal clear, besides using special e-ray equipment to see your body parts at the airports.

HOW MUCH FARTHER DO THEY NEED TO GO BEFORE ANY OF YOU WAKE UP?????? Much less see how they are stripping away your basic rights litlle by little.!!!!!!!!!!!

Daveyo

Edited April 8, 2005 by DaveYo

[meom]

Hey dudes, where have you been???????????  The USA Government has been stepping out of line for QUITE SOME TIME NOW.    They even put cameras out in the street watching you walk or mow your lawn or use the satelite to look down on top of your head or even use special infrareds to see inside the house of what your doing and it is crystal clear, besides using special e-ray equipment to see your body parts at the airports.

Daveyo      

Nothing to worry about cause so far they haven't come up with the proper tools and manpower to analyse all the info they have access to.

[kat]

They found photographs, letters, and a map; that is a lot more than "suspicion".  And why should they treat him differently because he is 87 and in a wheelchair?  The girls were ages 9 and 12!  He wants to be known as "Uncle Johnny" and had naked pictures of other children as well.

It is unbelievable to me that some of you are more cocerened with the reach of US law rather than the otherwise impunity of foreign pedophiles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I'm a bit behind on this thread.

All right, Kat. So what happens when they decide to make a federal law that says something like "No one is allowed to cross the U.S. Border to another Land and/or Return (and thus engage in Interstate Commerce) unless they have signed loyalty oaths to the current President of the United States?" Such a law would technically be legal in Congress according to its Constitutional powers, under the same interpretation that allows these "pre-emptive" arrests.

I'm also behind on this thread. I understand your fears, but we cannot allow fear of something that has not yet happend - or may not happen -

to dictate our response to what is happening right now. And right now, we have pedophiles who are exploiting children in developing countries because of lax enforcements in those countries.

If an American goes to a country where the murder of gay sons is widely accepted, and does so, shoud he be prosecuted according to American law or local law?

If you are unlawfully accused of a crime according to another country's laws, would you want to be extradited to the states?

I can't imagine, considering how little is spent on social programs in the U.S., that the federal government gives a fig for foreign minors. This *is* an attempt to expand powers, whether you like it that way or not.

I'm amazed that someone as little fond of the sort of government we have now- a government that passed something like the *Patriot Act*, for god's sake- would be so naive and trusting.

Don't assume I'm naive and trusting, because I see something you don't. In terms of this administration and their domestic programs, well yes, I agree with you. But if you throw everything out with the bathwater, you will never survive or progress, because we've got another 3 long years. Talk about naive ....

As I said- a specific law targetting this specific type of criminal- even if it has to be a constitutional amendment- would be better than this "We control everything when you cross our national line" BS. Way too dangerous.

Yes, specificity. I already alluded to this point by saying that our challenge was to keep the law to its narrow scope. The challenge of many laws, not just this one.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pedophile is a pedophile - end of story. We've got a twisted lot on here - defending a sicko predators.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Bush cartel made a major error- they should've dropped the WMD thing from the start and just said there was probably a pedophile somewhere in Iraq- THAT would've straightaway justified bombing, invasion, occupation, and any level of outrage for you, wouldn't it!

Wanting to do the right things to fight crime by the book and in a manner that doesn't threaten political tyranny or encourage U.S. hegemony is not the same as defending criminals. I thought Brits were smarter than this, usually. But I guess we got a twisted lot on here- defending sicko [neocon] predators.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steven, you are my friend, but I want you to examine the responses on this thread. Look at the arguments of the people who agree with you. Stop being a semantic, and just think.

Before we get too carried away with extending this law to anything then what it is, please remember that the government certainly isn't getting too carried away with it. It's been applied in only 4 cases, ALL of which have ended in convictions and guilty findings of abusing children, not even teens. Perhaps we should wait until something is shown to be concrete in these "government conspiracy" plans before jumping on the "our individual rights are being violated" bandwagon.

I'll be first in line to object if the government shows it's stepping out of bounds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ditto.

Before we get too carried away with extending this law to anything then what it is, please remember that the government certainly isn't getting too carried away with it. It's been applied in only 4 cases, ALL of which have ended in convictions and guilty findings of abusing children, not even teens. Perhaps we should wait until something is shown to be concrete in these "government conspiracy" plans before jumping on the "our individual rights are being violated" bandwagon.

I'll be first in line to object if the government shows it's stepping out of bounds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough, I suppose. But the current government is infamous now for finding ways to stretch its powers without any solid legal foundations (I assume I don't need to list examples) and so I react against it by default. If we had a normal government at the moment, we could expect it not to abuse its powers and I probably wouldn't care that much.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Naive thinking matey!!! You should judge things seperately and by dragging political rubbish in a pure/simple criminal matter isn't helping the arguement that yank pedo(s) under the yank criminal code will be severely punished if caught. (hence the long arm of the law will have no borders) BTW - this sort of law applies in most Western countries, so don't think you yanks are any more special than the rest of us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steven, stop REACTING.

[sriracha john]

Hey dudes, where have you been???????????  The USA Government has been stepping out of line for QUITE SOME TIME NOW.    They even put cameras out in the street watching you walk or mow your lawn or use the satelite to look down on top of your head or even use special infrareds to see inside the house of what your doing and it is crystal clear, besides using special e-ray equipment to see your body parts at the airports.

HOW MUCH FARTHER DO THEY NEED TO GO BEFORE ANY OF YOU WAKE UP??????  Much less see how they are stripping away your basic rights litlle by little.!!!!!!!!!!!

Daveyo      

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm fully aware of these measures, Dave..... That's why I always walk sideways down the street so the cameras can't get a clear shot of me... I also wear a large hat made of aluminum foil whenever I'm out cutting my lawn so the spy satellites can't snoop on me. I just finished smearing Cool Whip around the insides of my house as it messes up the images on their prying infra-red cameras.

For airports, I stick to the tried and true lead-lined suits.... so they aren't x-raying any of my body parts.

Now, I urge all good-thinking people of the world to follow my lead... and once everyone is protected in this manner, the government will stop trying to use these unjustified interventions and will resort back to trying to track down child abusers.

[jrincon17]

The U.S are finally follwing the stance of several European countries to make their citizens accountable for crimes committed abroad. This will put a damper on advocates of underage sex in Thailand, and hopefully get them into well deserved trouble.

But in tthe context of the present administration I suspect there are disputable hidden agendas at work, such as increasing American influence even more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why cant it just be for a good reason rather than always hating the U.S. and its administration. Do you live in the south or something ?

[jrincon17]

I've stated this on multiple threads: the flimsy legal fiction the U.S. uses to process these arrests is its power to regulate interstate commerce. As long as they can prove the intent to break a U.S. law by travelling overseas, in other words, they can prosecute them (as far as I understand it). I guess there is some sort of "conspiracy" charge involved, too, since no actual crime has occurred in this kind of arrest [for example, when they're picked up at the airport before actually making the trip].

In other words, if you are living and working in another country, you are subject to its laws and not those of the U.S. (yet). While I don't deny the value of such a law applied to this particular situation, I am very suspicious of the political maneuvering involved. It would have been better to pass an uncontroversial law specifically targetting child sex tourists than to create this imaginary blanket set of powers that can be applied by the powerful on a whim. I think it's another case where a conservative cause is being used to piggyback further outrageous imperialism and breakdown of U.S. citizen's rights ("to protect the children!") For example, another recent law attempts (probably illegally, but who knows yet?) to make consumption of any Cuban product illegal for all Americans world-wide. We're the only country that requires its own citizens to file and pay taxes every year even if we reside and work abroad the entire time.

However, to the not-so-bright sector of the American population who think that abortion is the kind of thing politics should be about, this is "true justice."

Sigh. We get the kind of government we deserve.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quo

Look at your screen name , Uncle johnny wanted to educate these kids . I think there are similarties between you two. How can you say that U.S. law is wrong , maybe he was a sex offender prior and yes they have the right then to watch your emails and such.

[Ijustwannateach]

^And another complete moron from the school of "cutting off the nose to spite the face" demonstrates why it's impossible to have a public policy/political discussion about anything that even remotely deals with the crime of pedophilia.

[nick2k]

here's a story for you. since I got the info second hand, I don't know if it's entirely true.

there is this guy from abroad who came to thailand to find someone underage with whom he could have sex with as often as he wanted.

he found such a girl. but realizing that he could be in big trouble he married her older sister. they both live in the same place with him. but in the privacy of the bedroom, he only makes love with the younger sister.

in return for their secrecy and loyalty, he spent over 4 million baht on the family buying them a house, and a large farm. even bought them a pickup, and a tractor. moreover, he is putting the 2 girls through school.

I hear that whenever he goes out to the farm, the whole family treats him like a god for what he has done for them.

..should such a person still be put in jail for being a pedophile?

since I got this info second hand, and don't know if it is entirely true, I won't mention names to protect myself from any legal action.

..just consider the scenario as fiction for discussion.

[DaveYo]

Hey dudes, where have you been???????????   The USA Government has been stepping out of line for QUITE SOME TIME NOW.    They even put cameras out in the street watching you walk or mow your lawn or use the satelite to look down on top of your head or even use special infrareds to see inside the house of what your doing and it is crystal clear, besides using special e-ray equipment to see your body parts at the airports.

HOW MUCH FARTHER DO THEY NEED TO GO BEFORE ANY OF YOU WAKE UP??????  Much less see how they are stripping away your basic rights litlle by little.!!!!!!!!!!!

Daveyo      

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm fully aware of these measures, Dave..... That's why I always walk sideways down the street so the cameras can't get a clear shot of me... I also wear a large hat made of aluminum foil whenever I'm out cutting my lawn so the spy satellites can't snoop on me. I just finished smearing Cool Whip around the insides of my house as it messes up the images on their prying infra-red cameras.

For airports, I stick to the tried and true lead-lined suits.... so they aren't x-raying any of my body parts.

Now, I urge all good-thinking people of the world to follow my lead... and once everyone is protected in this manner, the government will stop trying to use these unjustified interventions and will resort back to trying to track down child abusers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ohhhhhhhhh John, I could not believe my eyes reading your version of deception and efforts to thwart of spies in the sky or wires!!!!!!!!! I laughed so hard on this and really it definitely is one for the books.

However, from what I have said it is very true, but the real problem is most of the general public is unaware of how acute the situation has gotten concerning their rights and also privacy.

Heck, I know the police have gotten so carried away with their efforts in entrapment, they even start up conversations and even go so far as to give you some starters and kicks to get you on their track, and make claims of being X number of years old, and even get downright persistent pestering you in their efforts to get you to commit yourself some way or another so they can make an arrest according from others who have spoken about these things in the past.

My guess on this 87 year old guy --------> he fell right smack into a FED sting operation, which now indicates that they are going international in their investigations to not only catch Americans but others from other countries as well.

I'm willing to most likely bet that there was no victim in the Philippines. It was a set up from the Government all along. In doing so I am also willing to bet that they picked an address there and falsified every conceivable means knowing that this guy would never suspect it otherwise.

So now they use this long arm of the law as a tool or meaning as another weapon that they can claim being their right to intrude into another person and try to trap them, and make it look legit.

I am also willing to bet you that some of the fricking junk mail that somehow I get every once in awhile pertaining to sex that some of those are FED STING operations. I am not saying it is or not, since I trash it anyway, and that venture of messages really does turn me off totally.

It is very hard to tell now a days what is legit or not since the internet highway is so heavy and congested, it really makes me wonder how one can really protect themselves from unwanted intruders much less persistent junk mailers who keep sending their crap even tho you tell them to cease and desist on bothering you.

In any rate that is what my 6th sense is telling me about this case and perhaps the others who likewise fell into that trap before.

One common trap the police use is notifying you that you won something big, and they make it sound totally legit, and tell you where to go pick it up. So now you show up to pick up the winning item, and viola, the cops swoop down on you and bust you for some stupid warrant, that you thought was finished a few years ago!!!!!!!! This tactic is used to get you to go to them because they cannot for some reason or another get you under normal means and ways.

So if something sounds too good to be true, trash it pronto. Any advertisement or phone calls from people unknown to you, tell them to hit the fruity tooty highway someplace in timbuttu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Daveyo

[DaveYo]

here's a story for you.  since I got the info second hand, I don't know if it's entirely true. 

there is this guy from abroad who came to thailand to find someone underage with whom he could have sex with as often as he wanted.

he found such a girl.  but realizing that he could be in big trouble he married her older sister.  they both live in the same place with him.  but in the privacy of the bedroom, he only makes love with the younger sister.

in return for their secrecy and loyalty, he spent over 4 million baht on the family buying them a house, and a large farm.  even bought them a pickup, and a tractor.  moreover, he is putting the 2 girls through school.

I hear that whenever he goes out to the farm, the whole family treats him like a god for what he has done for them.

..should such a person still be put in jail for being a pedophile?

since I got this info second hand, and don't know if it is entirely true, I won't mention names to protect myself from any legal action.

..just consider the scenario as fiction for discussion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Man-O-Man!!!!!!!!!!!!, 4 million baht just to keep a secret a secret??????? Whew, well the cat is out of the bag man, so its no secret. Whether it is true or false obviously that family will keep the secret going till his Baht dries up. Once that happens then BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As of the ages, since there is no mentioning of it here, hard to tell. If it involves some chick of 14, or 15 or older, well it is not a super big deal I suppose here in Thailand. In fact girls here or the female society otherwise say and think you are really crazy and loco if you date or have sex with a chick your own age. For some reason or another it seems to be Taboo here in Thailand among the womenfolk.

But if it was me, believe me I would take a rain check knowing that they are gold diggers anyway. I would rather use my 4 million baht for better things than have a headache worrying myself to death because of doing something stupid.

Also I forgot to mentioned too, that if he supposingly spent buying them a house and farm and other etc's, what an idiot he is. There is no fricking way he going to ever see that back or ever lay claim on it. He just kissed off 4 million baht down the drain for some tryst fun. He needs a good spanking!!!!!!!!!!!

Daveyo

Edited April 10, 2005 by DaveYo

[somtaamgaiyang]

This appears to be the law in the US....may give some on a guide to a more thorough search...As I am not an American I was flying a bit blind.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 117 > § 2423

§ 2423. Transportation of minors

Release date: 2004-08-06

[a]...... Transportation With Intent To Engage in Criminal Sexual Activity.— A person who knowingly transports an individual who has not attained the age of 18 years in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any commonwealth, territory or possession of the United States, with intent that the individual engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.

...... Travel With Intent To Engage in Sexual Act With a Juvenile.— A person who travels in interstate commerce, or conspires to do so, or a United States citizen or an alien admitted for permanent residence in the United States who travels in foreign commerce, or conspires to do so, for the purpose of engaging in any sexual act (as defined in section 2246) with a person under 18 years of age that would be in violation of chapter 109A if the sexual act occurred in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.

Davyo....can you show me anything that proves that you can be punished for the same offence twice.....I know for a fact that it doesnt happen in the Australian Justice system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am a little confused here, how can it be legal to have sex below the age of 18 in America, and be illegal to have sex below that age "interstate". In other words it is travelling to have sex that is illegal with a person below the age of 18?

A very dangereous law, that whilst it will catch various paedophiles, can also be turned to catch just about anyone who pulls a 17 year old who looks 25.

What a dangerous law! Although what happens if you aren't paying?

United States of America

United States: varies from state to state, usually between 16 and 18; some states formerly forbade homosexual acts entirely, however such laws have been declared unconstitutional in 2003 (Lawrence v. Texas). Federal law forbids crossing state lines or international borders with the intent of having commercial sex with a person who is under 18, or any sex with a person who is under 16 and at least 4 years younger than the perpetrator (18 U.S.C. 2243 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/109a/sections/section_2243.html), 18 U.S.C. 2423 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/117/sections/section_2423.html)). In the US it is illegal to produce pornography featuring those under 18 and prosecutions have been commenced for cases where both partners are over the age of consent and under 18 years old, where they were making material solely for their own consumption or that of their lawful partner. The constitutionality of these cases is uncertain.

Alabama: 16

Alaska: 16

Arizona: 18

Arkansas: 16

California: 18

Colorado: 15/17

Connecticut: 16

District of Columbia: 16

Delaware: 16/18

Florida: 16/18

Georgia: 16

Hawaii: 16

Idaho: 16/18

Illinois:17

Indiana: 16

Iowa: 14/16

Kansas: 16

Kentucky: 16

Louisiana: 17

Maine: 16

Maryland: 16

Massachusetts 16 (has been changed from a complicated 16/18 law)

Michigan: 16

Minnesota: 16

Mississippi: 16

Missouri: 14/17

Montana: 16/18

Nebraska: 17

Nevada: 18 homosexual, 16 heterosexual

New Hampshire: 18 homosexual, 16 heterosexual

New Jersey: 16

New Mexico: must not be 4 or more years older than teen

New York: 17

North Carolina: 16

North Dakota: 18

Ohio: 16

Oklahoma: 16

Oregon: 18

Pennsylvania: 16

Rhode Island: 16

South Carolina: 14/16 (bill pending 03/2002)

South Dakota: 16

Tennessee: 18

Texas: 17

Utah: 16/18

Vermont: 16

Virginia: 18

Washington: 16/18

West Virginia: 16 18? 18?

Wisconsin: 18

Wyoming: 16/18?

Military: equal to the state the base is located in if the state law is 16yrs or greater else 16 if the state law is less that 16yrs; homosexuality grounds for dismissal

[gburns57au]

This appears to be the law in the US....may give some on a guide to a more thorough search...As I am not an American I was flying a bit blind.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 117 > § 2423

§ 2423. Transportation of minors

Release date: 2004-08-06

[a]...... Transportation With Intent To Engage in Criminal Sexual Activity.— A person who knowingly transports an individual who has not attained the age of 18 years in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any commonwealth, territory or possession of the United States, with intent that the individual engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.

...... Travel With Intent To Engage in Sexual Act With a Juvenile.— A person who travels in interstate commerce, or conspires to do so, or a United States citizen or an alien admitted for permanent residence in the United States who travels in foreign commerce, or conspires to do so, for the purpose of engaging in any sexual act (as defined in section 2246) with a person under 18 years of age that would be in violation of chapter 109A if the sexual act occurred in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.

Davyo....can you show me anything that proves that you can be punished for the same offence twice.....I know for a fact that it doesnt happen in the Australian Justice system.

I am a little confused here, how can it be legal to have sex below the age of 18 in America, and be illegal to have sex below that age "interstate". In other words it is travelling to have sex that is illegal with a person below the age of 18?

A very dangereous law, that whilst it will catch various paedophiles, can also be turned to catch just about anyone who pulls a 17 year old who looks 25.

What a dangerous law! Although what happens if you aren't paying?

United States of America

United States: varies from state to state, usually between 16 and 18; some states formerly forbade homosexual acts entirely, however such laws have been declared unconstitutional in 2003 (Lawrence v. Texas). Federal law forbids crossing state lines or international borders with the intent of having commercial sex with a person who is under 18, or any sex with a person who is under 16 and at least 4 years younger than the perpetrator (18 U.S.C. 2243 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/109a/sections/section_2243.html), 18 U.S.C. 2423 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/117/sections/section_2423.html)). In the US it is illegal to produce pornography featuring those under 18 and prosecutions have been commenced for cases where both partners are over the age of consent and under 18 years old, where they were making material solely for their own consumption or that of their lawful partner. The constitutionality of these cases is uncertain.

Alabama: 16

Alaska: 16

Arizona: 18

Arkansas: 16

California: 18

Colorado: 15/17

Connecticut: 16

District of Columbia: 16

Delaware: 16/18

Florida: 16/18

Georgia: 16

Hawaii: 16

Idaho: 16/18

Illinois:17

Indiana: 16

Iowa: 14/16

Kansas: 16

Kentucky: 16

Louisiana: 17

Maine: 16

Maryland: 16

Massachusetts 16 (has been changed from a complicated 16/18 law)

Michigan: 16

Minnesota: 16

Mississippi: 16

Missouri: 14/17

Montana: 16/18

Nebraska: 17

Nevada: 18 homosexual, 16 heterosexual

New Hampshire: 18 homosexual, 16 heterosexual

New Jersey: 16

New Mexico: must not be 4 or more years older than teen

New York: 17

North Carolina: 16

North Dakota: 18

Ohio: 16

Oklahoma: 16

Oregon: 18

Pennsylvania: 16

Rhode Island: 16

South Carolina: 14/16 (bill pending 03/2002)

South Dakota: 16

Tennessee: 18

Texas: 17

Utah: 16/18

Vermont: 16

Virginia: 18

Washington: 16/18

West Virginia: 16 18? 18?

Wisconsin: 18

Wyoming: 16/18?

Military: equal to the state the base is located in if the state law is 16yrs or greater else 16 if the state law is less that 16yrs; homosexuality grounds for dismissal

And you cant even drink till you are 21......

You reckon Thailand has some funny laws....