Standards for electric cars coming

[snoop1130]

Standards for electric cars coming

By The Nation

 

 

The Thai Industrial Standards Institute (TISI) will announce standards for electric cars by March. TISI secretary-general Wanchai Phanomchai said a committee has approved the draft standards for electric cars/vehicles for transportation and cargo, which the institute proposed.

 

“Car manufacturers are beginning to produce electric cars powered by batteries instead of an internal combustion engine because the government has promoted the production and use of electric vehicles in the country,” he said.

 

“The government has set up development guidelines to change the automotive industry into an electric vehicle industry, as well as promote alternative energy to reduce oil consumption and the environmental impact. We expect that these standards will be announced by March this year,” Wanchai said.

 

He explained that the electric car standards refer to UN regulation No 100 Revision 2 Uniform Provision concerning the approval of vehicles with regard to specific requirements for the electric power train from Amendment 1 to Amendment 4, which are European Union electric vehicle specifications that cover the safety of batteries when they are installed in a car.

 

“Once the battery is installed, it must be safe to use and can be recharged repeatedly. Also, the battery must withstand any impact from an accident and should not cause a short circuit during use,” Wanchai said.

 

He said the TISI plans to set up modern automotive standards to comply with the government policy.

 

“By this year, we will issue 20 standards and then an additional 20 in 2021. In this regard, Industry Minister Suriya Juangroongruangkit has urged the TISI to accelerate the process because it is an important government policy,” Wanchai added.

 

Source: https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30382745

 

-- © Copyright The Nation Thailand 2020-02-24

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[bluesofa]

I'm a bit confused about this.

To start with Wanchai says there are already EU specifications covering battery safety. Are the TSI are going to issue their own standards?

Will the TSI mirror the EU standards, or will there be new standards not yet implemented?

 

Do the EU (and UN) have common standards already for, say, connectors, cable size, power requirements, etc., to charge vehicles, so there would be no need to change these if you change your vehicle?

A bit like the standards for mobile phone chargers - even though in the past year or so the connector has been superseded, so there's now not one common standard.

[HuskerDo]

Now we just need "standards" for Thai drivers.

[rvaviator]

Standards for EV are well understood and accepted by the countries who make EV ...  UN Reg 100 rev2 started live way back in the days of door step milk deliveries back in UK ...

 

Sounds like Thailand is going to 'adopt them'.  No point reinventing the wheel .. its common practice.

 

Yes you do have various standards for connectors and chargers etc ...  But you do have some difference .. Charger standards in Japan is not the same as in US etc ... So you do a bit of 'mixed salad' on that side .. ????  ..

[impulse]

31 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

I'm a bit confused about this.

To start with Wanchai says there are already EU specifications covering battery safety. Are the TSI are going to issue their own standards?

Will the TSI mirror the EU standards, or will there be new standards not yet implemented?

 

It all depends on what it takes to milk some graft and corruption for the lawmakers, or to give the Elite some way to lock everyone else out of making any real money.  I'm sure one of the requirements will be a special license to import, which can only be obtained if you're well connected.

 

They can't just adapt the EU standards, since they're not set up for the same purpose.

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by impulse

[bluesofa]

7 minutes ago, rvaviator said:

Standards for EV are well understood and accepted by the countries who make EV ...  UN Reg 100 rev2 started live way back in the days of door step milk deliveries back in UK ...

 

Sounds like Thailand is going to 'adopt them'.  No point reinventing the wheel .. its common practice.

 

Yes you do have various standards for connectors and chargers etc ...  But you do have some difference .. Charger standards in Japan is not the same as in US etc ... So you do a bit of 'mixed salad' on that side .. ????  ..

Can I ask why the US and Japan have different standards?

Even allowing for different input voltage and frequency, that can obviously be handled by the unit that supplies the 'standard' to the car via the charging cable.

[sirineou]

14 minutes ago, rvaviator said:

Standards for EV are well understood and accepted by the countries who make EV ...  UN Reg 100 rev2 started live way back in the days of door step milk deliveries back in UK ...

 

Sounds like Thailand is going to 'adopt them'.  No point reinventing the wheel .. its common practice.

 

Yes you do have various standards for connectors and chargers etc ...  But you do have some difference .. Charger standards in Japan is not the same as in US etc ... So you do a bit of 'mixed salad' on that side .. ????  ..

I agree 

I am sure they will study pre existing standards and adopt them with minor  modifications to reflect Thai specific concerns. 

I hope vested  economic interests in the existing internal combustion vehicle industry in Thailand don't influence the process. 

[Peterw42]

What is the point of stuffing around with standards that already exsist ?

What is the point of standards when 90% of Thailand electricity comes from burning fossil fuel, for every car thats not making greenhouse gasses, the power station is making instead.

What is the point of standards when Thailand adds duty to an electric car that more than doubles the price of the car. A nissan leaf sells for 1M baht in the rest of the world, in Thailand its 2M baht

 

Ok, rant over

[rvaviator]

3 hours ago, bluesofa said:

Can I ask why the US and Japan have different standards?

Even allowing for different input voltage and frequency, that can obviously be handled by the unit that supplies the 'standard' to the car via the charging cable.

Depending on the EV model in question it may support one or more different ways of charging the battery pack  – It can have a onboard battery charger which will take AC input from a ‘special wall socket’ convert it to DC and charge up the battery , or it can take DC input from a large stationary charger which is hard wired to the AC grid and it will deliver DC directly to the battery on the vehicle.

AC charging – The charger is fitted in the car (about the size of a shoe box), It will typical charge a vehicle up in 6 to 8 hours

DC charging – The charger is huge in comparison (size of a petrol pump ???? ) – This is what is used for ‘fast charging’ .. When people talk about charging up the battery from 20% to 80% in 30min etc … (100% is fully charged)

To allow safe operation of both types of chargers – The vehicle has a onboard computer which manages the charging process – it communicates with the ‘special wall socket’ for the AC charger.

In the case of the DC charger, same thing applies. The vehicle computer has to talk to the DC charger. (The photo above show a typical DC fast charger)

In both cases you have a cable .. from the vehicle .. to the DC charger or the ‘special wall socket’ for the AC charging process. This cable carry both the power (AC or DC) and the communication link.

The various standards around – are related to the communication protocol and what the connector lock like – Some EV’s can be charger both by its onboard charger (AC, 6 to 8 hours) and ‘fast’ with DC. Hence you need a connector that can handle both inputs.  

The picture below show the various standards in use today.

 

[rvaviator]

10 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

What is the point of stuffing around with standards that already exsist ?

What is the point of standards when 90% of Thailand electricity comes from burning fossil fuel, for every car thats not making greenhouse gasses, the power station is making instead.

What is the point of standards when Thailand adds duty to an electric car that more than doubles the price of the car. A nissan leaf sells for 1M baht in the rest of the world, in Thailand its 2M baht

 

Ok, rant over

Good rant ???? ...

 

If standards are adopted, which I expect then that is all fine and straight forward ... Before you had European harmonized standards, the same thing was going on in Europe .. Sweden had standards, Norway had standards .. But the big players like Germany with DIN, and UK with BS and France to some extent tended to take the lead. Singapore have there standards and the Chinese have (very often based on the American standards UL or SAE ...  with a few tweaks here and there .. 

 

Yes the fossil fuel arguments is a good one .. I will not get into the debate about greenhouse gasses and all that .. All I will say is that its easier to clean up one dirty power plant than 1000+ cars stuck in traffic every day. Actually, in my view Thailand should push for public transport to be electric... Buses run all day and carry a lot of people, that be a good way to start.

 

I think soon you will see EVs made (assembled) in Thailand and that should lower the price - I think 'The Great Wall' motor company https://www.gwm-global.com/ are taking over the GM plant .. They have EVs in there product range.

 

The biggest issue with EVs are related to all the hype. But if the battery pack is well made - with good warranty - Then, yes .. they do work ...   The weak link is the battery ..its life and its capacity. Hard to beat the energy density of petrol (gas) or diesel ???? 

[bluesofa]

8 hours ago, rvaviator said:

{snipped}

The picture below show the various standards in use today.

 

Thanks for that, very interesting.

I've searched for different types of charging connectors. These are the ones I've found so far:

 

There is CCS - Combined Charging System, used in the EU since 2014.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System

 

Another one is Chademo, which was proposed in 2010 as a global industry standard.

Incredibly, the name comes from a Japanese pun:

"CHAdeMO is an abbreviation of "CHArge de MOve", equivalent to "move using charge" or "move by charge" or "charge 'n' go", a reference to the fact that it's a fast charger. The name is derived from the Japanese phrase O cha demo ikaga desuka, translating to English as "How about a cup of tea?", referring to the time it would take to charge a car."

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO#cite_note-general_pr-5

 

[spiekerjozef]

“Once the battery is installed, it must be safe to use and can be recharged repeatedly. Also, the battery must withstand any impact from an accident and should not cause a short circuit during use,” Wanchai said. "

 

Samsung cars

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by spiekerjozef

[bluejets]

Seen some of these accidents with the vehicle literally ripped apart.

Passenger area designed to be the protection area for the people inside.

So now a battery protection area as well. 

Don't see that working at all.

[klauskunkel]

15 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Standards for electric cars coming

and the very first standard for the car is: it is not exempt from brake failure

[rosst]

Can you please ensure all electric vehicles have a speed regulated audible warning and not be like China with the "whispering death". It is frightening to deal with these silent killers on the road. 

[rvaviator]

3 hours ago, spiekerjozef said:

“Once the battery is installed, it must be safe to use and can be recharged repeatedly. Also, the battery must withstand any impact from an accident and should not cause a short circuit during use,” Wanchai said. "

 

Samsung cars

 

 

Well, as long as you do not take your car on a plane .. you be fine ???? ..... When a EV turn into a big BBQ its always great news. Plenty of YouTube clips to see ....  When an ICE goes up in flames .. its just not the same news ....

[rvaviator]

3 hours ago, bluesofa said:

Thanks for that, very interesting.

I've searched for different types of charging connectors. These are the ones I've found so far:

 

There is CCS - Combined Charging System, used in the EU since 2014.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System

 

Another one is Chademo, which was proposed in 2010 as a global industry standard.

Incredibly, the name comes from a Japanese pun:

"CHAdeMO is an abbreviation of "CHArge de MOve", equivalent to "move using charge" or "move by charge" or "charge 'n' go", a reference to the fact that it's a fast charger. The name is derived from the Japanese phrase O cha demo ikaga desuka, translating to English as "How about a cup of tea?", referring to the time it would take to charge a car."

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO#cite_note-general_pr-5

 

They should have called the standard fast charging  : Kit-Kat   (In UK they had a slogan .. Have a break ... Have a Kit-Kat)

[Peterphuket]

16 hours ago, HuskerDo said:

Now we just need "standards" for Thai drivers.

What do you think about a Thai driver in an electric car from zero to hundred in 4.5 seconds....wow.

[Krataiboy]

17 hours ago, bluesofa said:

I'm a bit confused about this.

To start with Wanchai says there are already EU specifications covering battery safety. Are the TSI are going to issue their own standards?

Will the TSI mirror the EU standards, or will there be new standards not yet implemented?

 

Do the EU (and UN) have common standards already for, say, connectors, cable size, power requirements, etc., to charge vehicles, so there would be no need to change these if you change your vehicle?

A bit like the standards for mobile phone chargers - even though in the past year or so the connector has been superseded, so there's now not one common standard.

The WHO recommends a maximum level of PM2.5 particulates in the air of 25 micrograms/m3.  The Thai government recommended safety level is 50. That should tell us something.

[Wiggy]

Unless these new EVs can prevent microsleeps I can't seeing them having much effect in Thailand.

[madhav]

7 hours ago, Wiggy said:

Unless these new EVs can prevent microsleeps I can't seeing them having much effect in Thailand.

You mean something like this? It’s been out for years and it has saved a lot of accidents. You can see it take control and avoid collisions. 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by madhav

[rvaviator]

9 hours ago, madhav said:

You mean something like this? It’s been out for years and it has saved a lot of accidents. You can see it take control and avoid collisions. 

 

 

Technology is all well and good but it has to be 'understood' by the driver .. I mean 'all well and good' if the driver still has a mental understanding that 'I am ultimately responsible' ...

 

If not, accidents will still happen .. driver will go faster .... be on the phone, go to sleep  etc... and when it does go bang .. it will not be 'brake failure' .. it will be .. 'oh the avoidance system did not work'.

 

Real perception of danger is a very good 'safety feature'  to keep you alive ... Very simple 'safety system' ... (Not that it would ever be acceptable ???? ...) 

 

Make seat belts illegal - All cars to be fitted with a 1' spike on the steering wheel  ????  ... Pointing straight at your heart.  Now go and drive ... Sure some will get spiked no matter what .. but I bet you that the driver would be very very careful ... ????.  Simple and effective ... 

 

You also have driver safety system that scan your face for eye movements and send a audible alarm if non are detected for a short period ... Maybe a more acceptable system ???? .

 

 

 

[rvaviator]

19 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

What do you think about a Thai driver in an electric car from zero to hundred in 4.5 seconds....wow.

I see lots of spare part ???? ...

 

'Lots of accidents' in countries that has the Tesla for just that reason ...

 

Its great for people who does EV conversions as the battery pack can be salvaged and broken up and its cells sold on the 'second hand market' ... Remember the Tesla battery is made up from 1000+ .. laptop batteries (18650 cells) - The chemistry is slightly different as it have a high energy density .. Basically it is considered the 'best' 18650 cell on the market today ...

[Peterphuket]

5 hours ago, rvaviator said:

I see lots of spare part ???? ...

 

'Lots of accidents' in countries that has the Tesla for just that reason ...

 

Its great for people who does EV conversions as the battery pack can be salvaged and broken up and its cells sold on the 'second hand market' ... Remember the Tesla battery is made up from 1000+ .. laptop batteries (18650 cells) - The chemistry is slightly different as it have a high energy density .. Basically it is considered the 'best' 18650 cell on the market today ...

Yes I know about that, but especially with Thai drivers it will be a big problem.

About the 18650, yes I know Tesla use this in his batterypack, but I've got information with the new model they have there own different batterypack.

18650 (18x65mm) cells I use them in everytning in my house, cheap available at Ali.

[rvaviator]

Do not confuse the 'generic' 18650 cell which are easily available on Ali with the same Panasonic cell that Tesla are using - The Panasonic cell (LiNiCoAL02) has been used in 3 flavors - from early 2009 to 2019.  They have been reducing the Cobolt content  and mixing in silicon to get the highest energy cell on the market. 

 

It is very easy to get ripped of with fake cells when buying on Ali. Hence popularity with selling  them from 'written off' vehicles ...  

 

Yes you are right that they are looking at a new cell for Model 3 - It still is a Panasonic chemistry - but they are going in a slightly larger form factor 21700.  I think they have been able to get to a cell capacity of 4800mAh.

 

However in China - apparently Tesla have signed a deal with CATL and will use a prismatic cell in the cars made in the Chinese factory - A big departure from the cylindrical form factor (lower cost as the chemistry is no longer based on Cobolt but on Iron Phosphate - Somewhat lower energy density but less volatile chemistry)

 

Maybe the Tesla model sold in Thailand will have a 'Thai' drive configuration ....  0 - 100 in 15 sec .. ????