Insurgents Burn Female Villager Alive

[ourmanflint]

Well as a Muslim , i for one find there actions sick sad and disgusting ,And everything that has been done down south in the name of Islam.It has nothing to do with islam, and goes totaly against everything a Muslim should belive in.

I am not a pefect Muslim far from it ,But as i have said all the actions of a few so called Muslim, do not represent Islam ,or its teachings at all far from .And if those people really did know there Islam then they would know that the acts they are doing is totaly wrong and forbidden .InshAllah they will taste the fires of hel_l for what they have done to that poor girl.

Inshallah...

that unfortunately is the great get out clause isn't it? Whatever happens can be excused as "gods will".

I agree that this has nothing to do with Islam as many millions of muslims see it, the Islam of the Quran! But I really wish more muslims would stand up and voice their displeasure in the face of those who claim they are representing all of Islam and behave in this appalling way.

Do you think ordinary muslims in the south of Thailand would be able to voice their own displeasure.. of course not, if they did they would suffer the wrath of those allied to the insurgents as well as those in their own communities who through fear would turn on them.

I'm glad you at least are allowed to say what you like in this situation. I doubt you would be able to if you lived under Sharia law.

[ourmanflint]

I usually think Colpyat is aware of things in the Kingdom - but this goes beyond the borders of just Thailand. It is a world wide phenomenon that has raised its ugly head IN Thailand. One doesn't have to go to the South to be knowledgable of what is going on there.

Yes, it does go beyond the borders of the Kingdom. But not just in the way you suggest. Radical Islam was fueled and supported by the ones who now fight against it for their own reasons. Radical Islam popped up in areas in which previous dire injustices have been committed on the local population, and a few saw the only refuge and solution in Radical Islam.

But, as this is a board on Thailand, we should stay with Thailand. Analyzing the rise of radical Islam world wide is beyond the scope of this board, and only will end up in futility. Even the details of this particular insurgency here are difficult enough. Lets just try to stay with this, please. We can't be all over the place.

we seem to be at loggerheads, partially because of your insistence to try to keep this discussion within Thailand, when as many posters have said, this problem is not about Thailand, it just happens to be taking place in Thailand. The problem of Pattani as it now stands has evolved from a centuries old struggle for an autonomous Islamic state, independent from Malaya and Thailand. Pattani State is not just Yala, Narathiwat and Pattani, it also encompasses the now Malysian provinces of Perlis, Kedah, Kelantan and Terengganu. And beyond that even the current insurgency is part of a much greater cause, that to create an Islamic superstate of Pattani, Malaysia and Indonesia and the southern Philippines.

So no!!, we cannot limit this discussion to events in Thailand, not if we want to have an informed discussion.

[ColPyat]

And beyond that even the current insurgency is part of a much greater cause, that to create an Islamic superstate of Pattani, Malaysia and Indonesia and the southern Philippines.

So no!!, we cannot limit this discussion to events in Thailand, not if we want to have an informed discussion.

Up to this point i do agree. But the creation of an Islamic super-state may be in the heads of some of the most extremists, but you have to separate the insurgencies from this ideology. GAM in Aceh for example, even though having a somewhat strict form of Islam as one of its main aspirations, does not agree with this ideology. There is no evidence or indication that the insurgents in southern Thailand do adhere to this ideology. Bring evidence from credible sources, and i may change my position.

Further, if you analyze the Kashmir insurgency, then you will find out that initially the insurgency started with clear aims of independence/autonomy by the JKLF, and then was taken over by the more fanatic elements. When i was there about 10 or 11 years ago, the situation has already changed to the extend that many of the initial freedom fighters have switched sides and fought then already for the Indians against the extremists.

That basically shows us that we have to have peace as urgently as possible, even if it means autonomy, so the mess can still be contained.

Strict Islam does not equate completely fuzzy and insane ideologies, the same way that fundamentalist Christians such as the Amish or certain Baptists do not equate rabid Born Again Christians and Evangelists out on a cause of missioneering and waging war against anybody else.

There is a difference.

[canuckamuck]

Strict Islam does not equate completely fuzzy and insane ideologies, the same way that fundamentalist Christians such as the Amish or certain Baptists do not equate rabid Born Again Christians and Evangelists out on a cause of missioneering and waging war against anybody else.

There is a difference.

I am sorry ColPyat but could you have a go at rewording the last paragraph, I can’t make out what you mean. Can you use an alternate word for equate, I think that’s where I am confused. thanks

[ColPyat]

Strict Islam does not equate completely fuzzy and insane ideologies, the same way that fundamentalist Christians such as the Amish or certain Baptists do not equate rabid Born Again Christians and Evangelists out on a cause of missioneering and waging war against anybody else.

There is a difference.

I am sorry ColPyat but could you have a go at rewording the last paragraph, I can’t make out what you mean. Can you use an alternate word for equate, I think that’s where I am confused. thanks

Strict Islam is not the same as the fuzzy ideology of an Islamic superstate, or new Kaliphate, as the previous poster has described.

[zaza]

Well as a Muslim , i for one find there actions sick sad and disgusting ,And everything that has been done down south in the name of Islam.It has nothing to do with islam, and goes totaly against everything a Muslim should belive in.

I am not a pefect Muslim far from it ,But as i have said all the actions of a few so called Muslim, do not represent Islam ,or its teachings at all far from .And if those people really did know there Islam then they would know that the acts they are doing is totaly wrong and forbidden .InshAllah they will taste the fires of hel_l for what they have done to that poor girl.

Inshallah...

that unfortunately is the great get out clause isn't it? Whatever happens can be excused as "gods will".

I agree that this has nothing to do with Islam as many millions of muslims see it, the Islam of the Quran! But I really wish more muslims would stand up and voice their displeasure in the face of those who claim they are representing all of Islam and behave in this appalling way.

Do you think ordinary muslims in the south of Thailand would be able to voice their own displeasure.. of course not, if they did they would suffer the wrath of those allied to the insurgents as well as those in their own communities who through fear would turn on them.

I'm glad you at least are allowed to say what you like in this situation. I doubt you would be able to if you lived under Sharia law.

First,it's such a bad crime that we all feel sad and rage is boiling in our hearts for this brutal act.

Then:

I really preffered not to indulge is such topic cuz it would always lead to hear the morons of both sides!But if u insist on blaming the whole religion for a brutal criminal act of some bunch who doesn't represnt all muslims that would be unfair cuz most of the muslim ppl do not accept such deeds ,BUT they can NOT stop it .Its just as simple as you being helpless to stop the drugs or prostitution in your own country or even stop THE KKK from being racist !!!so if u think u can do something or change all the beliefs of all the ppl as u wish or as the way u were raised that would be really superior from the usual superior minds who used to conquer the world and FORGOT all the masacares and bloody history they had or still committing till now.

Remember we are all humans(unless u deny that) some are good and some are bad but if u keep the genelization attitude as your law then you should accept me to think all the Christians r killers and bad ppl of what they had done in Iraq cuz I guess u heard of the American soldier who raped a teenager and BURNED her parents and her little sister alive(its the seem deed of those F...G muslims in the south,eh?) u can see the link here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6384781.stm

BTW that soldier got only few months sentenc cuz he confessed !!!!!!!

Do u remember Abo Gharib prison scandal ?should we think all the Americans are pervert and .....?

Should we curse and kill or hate all the americans in the world for that act? I would say NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Each person is an indivisual even if some ppl were rasied from the same parents and enviroment and they differs compleletly sometimes.

To all posters :Pls just try to think more and use your brain before accusing or stereotyping the media or some troublmakers who usually live on others disasters.

And then u can claim there is no islamphobia

PS, that reply for all the posters who suffer the same issue

Edited April 13, 2007 by zaza

[canuckamuck]

Strict Islam does not equate completely fuzzy and insane ideologies, the same way that fundamentalist Christians such as the Amish or certain Baptists do not equate rabid Born Again Christians and Evangelists out on a cause of missioneering and waging war against anybody else.

There is a difference.

Thanks, but I meant the bit about the Christians, I understand the first part.

[ColPyat]

Strict Islam does not equate completely fuzzy and insane ideologies, the same way that fundamentalist Christians such as the Amish or certain Baptists do not equate rabid Born Again Christians and Evangelists out on a cause of missioneering and waging war against anybody else.

There is a difference.

Thanks, but I meant the bit about the Christians, I understand the first part.

You have fundamentalist Christians who live what you may call a medieval existence, such as the Amish or some Baptist sects, who do no harm. And then you have certain Born Again groups that go and missioneer extremely aggressive, and Evangelists who give religious support to brutal wars our western governments are waging, who would even prefer extermination wars against Muslims, where some decision making members of those governments are followers of such extremist Born Again sects.

And you have strict Muslims who want Sharia, and all the works, but who do definitely not agree with with the atrocities of the insurgents. And many of the insurgent groups themselves do not agree with the ideologies of an Islamic super-state, such as the ones i have listed.

Is it clearer now?

[canuckamuck]

You have fundamentalist Christians who live what you may call a medieval existence, such as the Amish or some Baptist sects, who do no harm. And then you have certain Born Again groups that go and missioneer extremely aggressive, and Evangelists who give religious support to brutal wars our western governments are waging, who would even prefer extermination wars against Muslims, where some decision making members of those governments are followers of such extremist Born Again sects.

And you have strict Muslims who want Sharia, and all the works, but who do definitely not agree with with the atrocities of the insurgents. And many of the insurgent groups themselves do not agree with the ideologies of an Islamic super-state, such as the ones i have listed.

Is it clearer now?

Thanks for clarifying:

Now I know I’ve pushed a few of your buttons lately, and I don’t really intend to fire shots at you all day, but your understanding of Christianity is noticeably short.

For example for an evangelist to be an evangelist, that would mean he is someone explaining to other people they need to be born again. Therefore all authentic evangelists are born again. This description born again is a fundamental tenant of the church, describing a death to a former life of sin and a new beginning into a life of forgiveness and following God. It is in no means an extreme element, a high proportion of western grandmas would likely consider themselves born again. If by aggressive missioneering (I have never heard the term missioneer) you mean providing a compelling argument for their beliefs, while providing practical good works. Then you might say they enjoy doing that. None of them by the way look forward to a day where they can cane the crap out of some teenage girl who inadvertently displayed an ankle. That they leave for strict Islam

[sbk]

Nope, I guess they just look forward to the day they can shoot a doctor at a family planning clinic instead

[ColPyat]

Thanks for clarifying:

Now I know I’ve pushed a few of your buttons lately, and I don’t really intend to fire shots at you all day, but your understanding of Christianity is noticeably short.

For example for an evangelist to be an evangelist, that would mean he is someone explaining to other people they need to be born again. Therefore all authentic evangelists are born again. This description born again is a fundamental tenant of the church, describing a death to a former life of sin and a new beginning into a life of forgiveness and following God. It is in no means an extreme element, a high proportion of western grandmas would likely consider themselves born again. If by aggressive missioneering (I have never heard the term missioneer) you mean providing a compelling argument for their beliefs, while providing practical good works. Then you might say they enjoy doing that. None of them by the way look forward to a day where they can cane the crap out of some teenage girl who inadvertently displayed an ankle. That they leave for strict Islam

Excuse me, but i doubt that very much. Maybe a high proportion of American or Canadian (i doubt that though) Grandmas would consider themselves "Born Again" - only very few Europeans do that. Most European Christians are either Catholic or Lutheran Protestant, and there being "Born Again" is frowned upon.

Most Catholic priests in Thailand have given up the idea of "explaining to other people they need to be born again", or change religion, and are only busy with charitable works. People such as Father Joe Mayer.

And personally, and i believe you may be offended, because i suspect that you are Born Again Christian, but i do not really care, but i consider Born Again Christians here in areas of poverty and crises as a purge, leaches who are taking the last thing people have left - their culture - and replace it with Christian fundamentalism as bad as some of the Islamic fundamentalism.

Nevertheless - i have met occasionally some very nice Born Again Christians who have not have the need to "explain to other people they need to be born again", and when asked only explain their personal believes. In the many run ins i had in the Burmese borderlands and other crises areas with those sorts, the nice ones are a tiny and small minority.

And no, my understanding of Christianity is not "rather short", i have been in a Catholic monastery boarding school, i was born Lutheran, and chose to be Agnostic after a brief flirtation period with Hinduism. I have friends from all imaginable religions, and do respect their personal believes. And because they respect mine, do not have the need to "explain to me i need to be born again" or any other hogwash unsuitable for me, we get along fine.

I hope i have made my position clear, and we can go back to the original topic, which is the southern insurgency in Thailand.

[Douggie Style]

Well as a Muslim , i for one find there actions sick sad and disgusting ,And everything that has been done down south in the name of Islam.It has nothing to do with islam, and goes totaly against everything a Muslim should belive in.

I am not a pefect Muslim far from it ,But as i have said all the actions of a few so called Muslim, do not represent Islam ,or its teachings at all far from .And if those people really did know there Islam then they would know that the acts they are doing is totaly wrong and forbidden .InshAllah they will taste the fires of hel_l for what they have done to that poor girl.

Inshallah...

that unfortunately is the great get out clause isn't it? Whatever happens can be excused as "gods will".

I agree that this has nothing to do with Islam as many millions of muslims see it, the Islam of the Quran! But I really wish more muslims would stand up and voice their displeasure in the face of those who claim they are representing all of Islam and behave in this appalling way.

Do you think ordinary muslims in the south of Thailand would be able to voice their own displeasure.. of course not, if they did they would suffer the wrath of those allied to the insurgents as well as those in their own communities who through fear would turn on them.

I'm glad you at least are allowed to say what you like in this situation. I doubt you would be able to if you lived under Sharia law.

First,it's such a bad crime that we all feel sad and rage is boiling in our hearts for this brutal act.

Then:

I really preffered not to indulge is such topic cuz it would always lead to hear the morons of both sides!But if u insist on blaming the whole religion for a brutal criminal act of some bunch who doesn't represnt all muslims that would be unfair cuz most of the muslim ppl do not accept such deeds ,BUT they can NOT stop it .Its just as simple as you being helpless to stop the drugs or prostitution in your own country or even stop THE KKK from being racist !!!so if u think u can do something or change all the beliefs of all the ppl as u wish or as the way u were raised that would be really superior from the usual superior minds who used to conquer the world and FORGOT all the masacares and bloody history they had or still committing till now.

Remember we are all humans(unless u deny that) some are good and some are bad but if u keep the genelization attitude as your law then you should accept me to think all the Christians r killers and bad ppl of what they had done in Iraq cuz I guess u heard of the American soldier who raped a teenager and BURNED her parents and her little sister alive(its the seem deed of those F...G muslims in the south,eh?) u can see the link here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6384781.stm

BTW that soldier got only few months sentenc cuz he confessed !!!!!!!

Do u remember Abo Gharib prison scandal ?should we think all the Americans are pervert and .....?

Should we curse and kill or hate all the americans in the world for that act? I would say NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Each person is an indivisual even if some ppl were rasied from the same parents and enviroment and they differs compleletly sometimes.

To all posters :Pls just try to think more and use your brain before accusing or stereotyping the media or some troublmakers who usually live on others disasters.

And then u can claim there is no islamphobia

PS, that reply for all the posters who suffer the same issue

Excellent post, injecting some logic into the topic.

Operating from a position of outrage or moral superiority, does not lead to good decision making.

There are many examples of where it does lead, one outrage answered by another until the whole bloody mess resembles a snake swallowing it's tail.

You only have to look at the Bush response to anything to see an example of a one size fits all style of thinking and where it leads.

There needs to be a more strategic rational considered response, work on those segments of the community who are moderate, reduce tensions where possible.

People have different values but at the end of the day they all crave security and the chance to earn a living, start with that.

I am disappointed with the progress down south to date, and this latest absolute disgrace.

How can a human burn a young woman alive?

How can a human stack, tightly bound Thai-Muslims protesters, one on top of another until 78 die screaming and kicking for air?

How many contributers were as vigorous in rejecting that outrage and if so why not?

It's a circle, you break a circle through a circle-breaker.

All this talk of a pan Muslim nation is a nonsense, merely useful propaganda to justify the one size fits all yee ha cowboys.

[canuckamuck]

And no, my understanding of Christianity is not "rather short", i have been in a Catholic monastery boarding school, i was born Lutheran, and chose to be Agnostic after a brief flirtation period with Hinduism. I have friends from all imaginable religions, and do respect their personal believes. And because they respect mine, do not have the need to "explain to me i need to be born again" or any other hogwash unsuitable for me, we get along fine.

I hope i have made my position clear, and we can go back to the original topic, which is the southern insurgency in Thailand.

Your right, the topic is the southern insurgency; I was just doing a check on your unbiased opinion of world religions. Hope you didn’t get any spit on your keyboard as you got that off your chest. Apparently you know so little about Christianity because you have a pathological fear of hearing them speak. You’ve had a hard day, I’ll see you tomorrow.

[ColPyat]

Apparently you know so little about Christianity because you have a pathological fear of hearing them speak.

Don't try to play that sectarian mind game crap on me.

It doesn't work.

[Flysiam]

And no, my understanding of Christianity is not "rather short", i have been in a Catholic monastery boarding school, i was born Lutheran, and chose to be Agnostic after a brief flirtation period with Hinduism. I have friends from all imaginable religions, and do respect their personal believes. And because they respect mine, do not have the need to "explain to me i need to be born again" or any other hogwash unsuitable for me, we get along fine.

I hope i have made my position clear, and we can go back to the original topic, which is the southern insurgency in Thailand.

Any respect I may have had for you may have just been blown away. In almost the same breath you claim that you have respect for others peoples believes [sic] (it is 'beliefs') but then you immediately call their beliefs "hogwash." Don't back peddle and say that it is hogwash to you - thats not what it means. I may not believe in organized Buddhism (though I have no conflict with original teachings from Buddhism) but I would NEVER EVER call it hogwash.

You, I believe, do not know your your religions as much as you claim and appear to be more hot air than substance anymore.

[endure]

Stop the personal insults - and the spelling checks. Not everyone here speaks English as a first language.

[ColPyat]

And no, my understanding of Christianity is not "rather short", i have been in a Catholic monastery boarding school, i was born Lutheran, and chose to be Agnostic after a brief flirtation period with Hinduism. I have friends from all imaginable religions, and do respect their personal believes. And because they respect mine, do not have the need to "explain to me i need to be born again" or any other hogwash unsuitable for me, we get along fine.

I hope i have made my position clear, and we can go back to the original topic, which is the southern insurgency in Thailand.

Any respect I may have had for you may have just been blown away. In almost the same breath you claim that you have respect for others peoples believes [sic] (it is 'beliefs') but then you immediately call their beliefs "hogwash." Don't back peddle and say that it is hogwash to you - thats not what it means. I may not believe in organized Buddhism (though I have no conflict with original teachings from Buddhism) but I would NEVER EVER call it hogwash.

You, I believe, do not know your your religions as much as you claim and appear to be more hot air than substance anymore.

And you are so off topic that it is not even funny anymore.

Learn to read, and what i called hogwash. My respect for other's religion stops when others try "explaining to other people they need to be born again" (quoting cannuk). This is intrusion into personal affairs, and nothing else. I have no need to be born again, and even less need of somebody trying to convince me that i have to. As has happened countless times when i had the misfortune to run into those leaches.

I am willing to listen to their personal believe systems, and have done so on many occasions. There is nothing in their believe that even remotely would be suitable for me, but if they are happy - up to them. The limit of good manners though has been breeched when they try to convince me of something that will not accept for me.

So far your only contribution in this thread has been one rather anti-Islamic post without much relevance to the topic, and a few posts (one was deleted) infringing on my privacy. Personally, i really do not need your respect, and i very much regret defending you in another thread a while ago when people questioned what you divulged about yourself.

I would suggest you stay with the topic, which is neither me, nor Christianity, but the southern insurgency here in Thailand.

[ourmanflint]

All this talk of a pan Muslim nation is a nonsense, merely useful propaganda to justify the one size fits all yee ha cowboys.

How do you arrive at such a ridiculous statement?? I guess you know absolutely nothing about modern day Islam and the legacy of Ayatollah Khomeini.

According to documents seized by Southeast Asian security agencies, the final goal of this “brotherhood” is to establish an Islamic mega-state encompassing Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, southern Thailand, and the Muslim areas of southern Philippines. Bertil Lintner

YaleGlobal, 24 November 2004

Of course you know so much more than the joint intelligence services of many countries worldwide.

Thanks for the input of your huge knowledge.... *ob!!

[farang prince]

Bastards - setting someone on fire is perhaps one of the most evil things one can do.

The only way this will end is for the people living in the south to finally say "Enough." There are plenty of decent people who must know something about the insurgents and they need to give this information to authorities so they can act on it. If this type of vicious killing is allowed to go on, then shame on the people who live in the south, because they can stop it if they want, simply by cooperating with the Thai government.

[AmeriThai]

I admit I haven’t looked at all the posts, so forgive me if this has already been covered. A few parts of the article left me wondering.

“When police arrived they could not even identify the gender of the remains because it was so badly burnt.”

How did they determine the gender and identity of the victim?

“Then, although she was apparently still alive but badly wounded, they set fire to her body, completely burning it.”

Under such horrendous conditions, for her sake I hope that wasn’t true. How was it determined she was still alive at the time?

This part of the article is extremely disturbing:

“The attack took place in the populated municipal district, but villagers living nearby saw nothing at all, and were unable to help police with their investigation.”

Something like this happened “in the populated municipal district”, but no one nearby saw anything at all? It’s hard to believe no one was aware of what was it. It would’ve taken time for the body to burn so badly that even the gender of the victim couldn’t be identified. Certainly some people heard the gunfire, would’ve poked their noses out to see what happened and would’ve seen the victim burning. Sounds like either the locals were protecting the killers, or they were afraid of them.

Edited April 14, 2007 by AmeriThai

[Thaddeus]

Sounds like either the locals were protecting the killers, or they were afraid of them.

Bingo.

But which one ....... solve that one and you will move much further into how to solve the overall problem in the south.

[ColPyat]

Sounds like either the locals were protecting the killers, or they were afraid of them.

Bingo.

But which one ....... solve that one and you will move much further into how to solve the overall problem in the south.

Both. Most will be scared, and a few will support the insurgents.

Everywhere you go there will encounter terrible fear under the population, Muslim and Buddhist. So far, educated guess is, that the majority of the Muslim population is sitting on the fence, sort of. They are terrified of the insurgents, and they are equally scared of the government. They do support the idea of independence/autonomy, but not through violence, especially not through violence against civilians. They basically just want to be left alone. They are mostly rather strict Muslims. One of the terrible effects of this insurgency is that in the very tightly knit communities Muslims cannot trust each other anymore. Nobody knows for sure who might be insurgent, supporter of them, and who not. This even goes into core family units.

Most people killed there were local Muslims, and many of them were Muslims accused to be working for the government and/or really working for the government. Anybody standing out by being actively on the government's side is living in danger of being threatened and killed. The insurgents have a very good intelligence network, and have infiltrated many government organizations.

And, mostly during attacks they do dress as security forces, therefore for witnesses it is often not possible to see the difference. After attacks very soon the insurgents let their propaganda machine roll, via hand bills and word of mouth. They are faster with the distribution of news than the government.

The problem is, that there were cases in which rogue government forces have committed abuses (and as in Tak Bai, not even just rogue parts, but very officially, and as it seems, with impunity), and corrupt security forces are clearly involved in graft and illicit business.

It is very murky down there, and in many cases impossible to get proof or evidence of anything. People standing up against this is a very difficult thing to demand.

Just imagine - you do not support the insurgents, but you have also a distrust of the government, due to a documented history of abuse, and of course due to the impossibility of getting any sort of clear evidence for anything. Nobody really knows anything there, and as usual in such insurgencies/civil wars, rumors are flying around.

Most people, Muslim and Buddhist, just want to be left alone, ideally, but are forced by circumstances and conditions far beyond their scope of understanding to take sides.

[Douggie Style]

All this talk of a pan Muslim nation is a nonsense, merely useful propaganda to justify the one size fits all yee ha cowboys.

How do you arrive at such a ridiculous statement?? I guess you know absolutely nothing about modern day Islam and the legacy of Ayatollah Khomeini.

I thank you for making me recheck the facts. Rather than go of topic here are links to the recent history of Iran .

http://www.mideastweb.org/iranhistory.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Modern_I...2.80.93_1979.29

‘In 1953, President Eisenhower authorized Operation Ajax, and the CIA took the lead in overthrowing Mossadegh and supporting a U.S.-friendly monarch; and for which the U.S. Government apologized in 2000’ source Wikpedia

In brief, it is a sordid tale of western meddling, duplicity, rape and pillage worthy of any spy novel. A case study of how to create an extremist state.

Briefly, the current levels of distrust and paranoia resulted from the Russian, British, CIA et al installment of a series of puppet governments in an attempt to control the oil wealth. This is acknowledged historical fact.

Ayatollah Khomeini was equally a reaction to that outside influence. Prior to that the country (who I believe see themselves more as Persians) was rather moderate, forward thinking and even had a long standing Jewish community.

Directly on topic, I concede there is a Pan Muslim nation movement, but it is overblown. It is a distraction and a tool of fear mongering that avoids engaging with the moderate majority.

The extremist wins if they cause an over reaction from the security forces, each new atrocity generates new converts. Eventually the whole thing degenerates into all out guerrilla war.

This same paranoia is why the US is (and will) lose in Iraq, this cowboy mentality that there are ‘good’ guys and ‘bad’ guys leads to a heavy handed and unsophisticated response; for example they will not engage with Syria or Iran on a so called moral premise, tying their hands in this way they remove a practical method to reduce arms being used against their own troops. I can think of no greater failure in a government.

I think the South is near a tipping point, it can go either way.

(Mods please leave intact, the outside points are directly relevant to the Southern insurgency and used to illustrate different approaches)

According to documents seized by Southeast Asian security agencies, the final goal of this “brotherhood” is to establish an Islamic mega-state encompassing Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, southern Thailand, and the Muslim areas of southern Philippines. Bertil Lintner

YaleGlobal, 24 November 2004

Of course you know so much more than the joint intelligence services of many countries worldwide.

The intelligence service collect masses of raw data, analyse it and put forward probabilities to the end users. Therefore the intelligence is filtered and interpreted at various stages by human analysts, equally as subject to bias and influence as any other human.

A case in point was the intelligence on Iraq (supposedly the worlds best), completely wrong on all three critical points:

1. No WMD

2. Saddams non existant link to Al Queda

3. No efforts to obtain uranium

I think the myth the intelligence services are somehow infallible or always correct is naïve in the extreme; to rely on those views alone is dangerous. Logically the wider the sources of information you read the more accurate you are likely to be.

Thanks for your criticisms, I do not have all the answers, but I do know you can either add heat to the situation or take it away.

There are powerful vested interests in adding heat, and the start is to win the propaganda war thereby creating fear and mistrust in the public of Muslims. This equates to further power and budget increases, this is as relevant now to the South in Thailand as anywhere.

If you see that as being paranoid there is a great documentary on how the Indonesian security services are fabricating terrorist incidents; the pay off is they are the largest recipient of anti terrorists money (I believe over 200m), most of which does not require any real account as does aid monies.

[taxexile]

If you see that as being paranoid there is a great documentary on how the Indonesian security services are fabricating terrorist incidents; the pay off is they are the largest recipient of anti terrorists money (I believe over 200m), most of which does not require any real account as does aid monies.

any link to that ?

[Douggie Style]

If you see that as being paranoid there is a great documentary on how the Indonesian security services are fabricating terrorist incidents; the pay off is they are the largest recipient of anti terrorists money (I believe over 200m), most of which does not require any real account as does aid monies.

any link to that ?

I'll see if I can dig something up later...probably not today.

[ColPyat]

The Nation just has an article that is not too bad, and shows how complex and explosive the situation down south is:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/15...es_30031903.php

SOUTHERN SHOOTINGS

Protest ends after assurances

Army vows to probe killing of teenagers by unit, and take action if soldiers guilty

Following tense negotiations yesterday, hundreds of angry residents ended their protest after reaching a series of agreements with Pattani Governor Panu Uthairath over the shooting deaths of three unarmed teenagers by a military unit on Friday evening.

A representative from the Army agreed to investigate the incident.

Hundreds of angry local residents gathered on a main road near the Pattani Central Mosque shortly after burying the 13- to 15-year-old victims of Friday's shooting.

They said the three victims and two other injured boys were playing tag on the road just metres away from where a weekly open market was set up at the time of the shooting.

The soldiers, dispatched to the area near Ban Bana to investigate the torching of four mobile-phone relay outlets, opened fire when they thought the boys were charging at them.

Local Army commander Colonel Wanchai Paungkhumsa initially said the soldiers had acted in self-defence, saying gunshots were fired from where a group of youths was standing.

"They could not just sit idly by in that situation," Wanchai was quoted by the Associated Press as saying.

However, a police source who spoke on condition of anonymity said no shots had been fired at the soldiers.

The bodies of the boys were paraded through the village and buried yesterday morning in line with Islamic tradition. Shortly afterwards, local residents took their demonstration to the heart of Pattani, where about 300 protesters, mostly young men, called for a thorough investigation into the shooting of the young unarmed men.

Panu, Colonel Wirawan Pathompark, deputy commander of the Internal Security Operation Command, and Pol Maj-General Korkiert Wongworachart, commander of Pattani Provincial Police, met with Marudin Cheka, a relative of the victims.

The two sides agreed that the 12-man unit involved in the shootings would be investigated and, if found to have acted inappropriately, transferred out of the three southernmost provinces. There will also be a public apology to Ban Bana residents if the investigation finds against the unit.

Local residents and observers said weeks of shooting deaths of unarmed young men by what appeared to be poorly trained security officials on the front line had threatened to bring sectarian violence to the restive region.

Human Rights Watch's representative in Thailand, Sunai Pasuk, said expectations from the Malay-speaking community had been high when Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont came to power.

"He promised to better handle the South, but in reality, security forces continue to use excessive force, resulting in many deaths. They continue to walk away from their crimes," Sunai said.

Last Monday, a government-backed village defence volunteer shot dead four unarmed Muslim youths following a heated exchange of words. The Army's decision to defend its actions drew a hail of criticism over the rules of engagement.

On March 9, a panel from the National Legislative Assembly was set up to investigate a shooting death after a group of rangers opened fire and launched an M79 grenade into a private Islamic boarding school in Yala's Ban Taseh. One student was killed and another injured while they were sleeping.

Initially, authorities said the school was not attacked but a bomb had accidentally gone off while students were practising making explosives.

Residents also suspected rangers of attacking another religious school in Songkhla's Saba Yoi district on March 17, killing three students and injuring seven others. A series of protests were held in the following weeks.

Media representatives and local Muslims accused the authorities of trying to cover up these attacks by giving the public false and misleading information.

Meanwhile in Yala, Buddhist residents yesterday continued to mourn the death of Patcharaporn Boonmart, 26, who was shot dead and burned by suspected insurgents on Wednesday.

Hundreds massed around her coffin, which was placed in front of Yala's main provincial hall.

Late yesterday evening, Surayud announced the cancellation of a scheduled briefing trip to the South with the press on April 20, citing the past week's escalating events as the cause.

However, the premier said he would attend Patcharaporn's cremation in Yala on Monday.

General Sonthi Boonyaratklin, chairman of the Council for National Security (CNS), meanwhile said he planned to organise a special trip to the deep South for the press to brief them on the latest situation and the policy of the CNS and the government for tackling the problems in the region.

In Narathiwat yesterday, two Muslim men aged 26 and 29 were gunned down by suspected militants in a drive-by shooting while they were riding a motorcycle. Also in Narathiwat, a 19-year-old Muslim boy was shot dead late on Friday in another drive-by shooting.

In Rusoh district, gunmen fired into a moving train, injuring two passengers. The State Railway of Thailand suspended services from Yala to Sungai Kolok district.

In another incident nearby, a fierce gun battle broke out between suspected insurgents and a ranger unit in the same tambon. The shooting lasted for about 10 minutes, police said.

[ourmanflint]

http://www.mideastweb.org/iranhistory.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Modern_I...2.80.93_1979.29

‘In 1953, President Eisenhower authorized Operation Ajax, and the CIA took the lead in overthrowing Mossadegh and supporting a U.S.-friendly monarch; and for which the U.S. Government apologized in 2000’ source Wikpedia

Ayatollah Khomeini was equally a reaction to that outside influence. Prior to that the country (who I believe see themselves more as Persians) was rather moderate, forward thinking and even had a long standing Jewish community.

Thanks for your criticisms, I do not have all the answers, but I do know you can either add heat to the situation or take it away.

There are powerful vested interests in adding heat, and the start is to win the propaganda war thereby creating fear and mistrust in the public of Muslims. This equates to further power and budget increases, this is as relevant now to the South in Thailand as anywhere.

If you see that as being paranoid there is a great documentary on how the Indonesian security services are fabricating terrorist incidents; the pay off is they are the largest recipient of anti terrorists money (I believe over 200m), most of which does not require any real account as does aid monies.

Thank you Douggie

Yes, all the Iranians I know in the UK refer to themselves as Persian and even try to distance themsleves from Iran. And thanks for the links. I'll be sure to read up more on this.

Interesting stuff.

[Ajarn]

although she was apparently still alive but badly wounded, they set fire to her body, completely burning it

This smells, to me, like someone is trying to emotionalize the issue... I mean, who was it apparent to?? No witnesses, and the body was completely burned. How could anything be apparent to anyone???

[Douggie Style]

Cheers Ourmanflint.

If you see that as being paranoid there is a great documentary on how the Indonesian security services are fabricating terrorist incidents; the pay off is they are the largest recipient of anti terrorists money (I believe over 200m), most of which does not require any real account as does aid monies.

(taxexile @ 2007-04-15 07:52:17)

any link to that ?

Tax here is the link as promised, correction it was a report not a documentary.

For other readers; follows is a transcript of a Dateline program aired on the SBS channel on October 12 2005, it is heavy reading, the program is very clear.

It explores the sordid links between the Indonesian intelligence services and various SE Asian insurgent groups including the Acehnese.

It further claims elements of the Indonesian military were actively responsible for a series of blasts and assisted in the support and development of some of these organisations, the goal was to obtain (vast) funding for anti-terror activities from Western countries.

If you have read the whole thread the parallels and relevance to southern Thailand should be obvious.

http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/index.php?...headlineid=1033

This link is better formatted but may not be as complete:

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Australia/indonesia.htm

(thanks to mods for the light touch in this thread which has been much to the benefit of the discussion)

[ColPyat]

Tax here is the link as promised, correction it was a report not a documentary.

Thanks a lot for the links.

The huge problem though is that this is getting more than confusing, and as many of the statements made rather clear that from a certain point on - clear proof is just not there. The only thing that is clear is that things are more than fishy, and more complex than we are made to believe. No simplistic bad Muslim - good west sort of world.

Also in the Southern conflict here in Thailand there are many similar allegations going around of some rather strange alliances. But proof, or evidence is hard to come by. How possibly can we debate these things here in this discussion when there are more than a few posters who need for every single statement made an article posted by CNN that confirms it, and if one is posted by a source, the source then will be attacked because it does not confirm to someone's ideology?