Troubleshooting Solar Back Up System

[malcolminthemiddle]

I have a 5Kw solar system with back up batteries. Recently the back up batteries have failed to kick in when there is a mains power outage. If I simulate a power outage by turning off the main breaker the batteries kick in. If I turn off the main breaker during the power outage the batteries still fail to kick in. My installer has already reneged on his service agreement and is of no help. I have tried resetting the solar system by turning it off and back on. Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

[Crossy]

You'll need to give us more information about your system, particularly the inverter and how the backup is supposed to sense mains failure.

 

How old are the batteries, do they have a good state of charge?

 

Can you force the system to start up once the mains has failed (buttons on the inverter)? 

 

At first glance it seems to be something around the failure detection gubbins, but we need more detail as there are many different ways this may have been implemented.

 

[malcolminthemiddle]

37 minutes ago, Crossy said:

You'll need to give us more information about your system, particularly the inverter and how the backup is supposed to sense mains failure.

That's beyond my technical level. Although the back up did work perfectly before. I cannot think of an event that would have upset the system. 

37 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

How old are the batteries, do they have a good state of charge?

3 years old. They are regularly serviced and hold a charge of 90% +.

37 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Can you force the system to start up once the mains has failed (buttons on the inverter)? 

If I turn the solar off and then back on during the outage the batteries will kick in but only for a minute or less.

37 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

It certainly seems to be something around the failure detection gubbins, but we need more detail as there are many different ways this may have been implemented.

 

 

[Crossy]

9 minutes ago, malcolminthemiddle said:

If I turn the solar off and then back on during the outage the batteries will kick in but only for a minute or less.

 

When you simulate a power failure by opening the main breaker do the batteries stay on longer?

 

When you say the batteries are at 90% how are you determining that? Can you check the voltage of the battery pack and the individual units? (do you have a multimeter?)

 

Some photos of what you have including the type number of any of the kit would be handy.

 

EDIT It's also worth running through the configuration menu of the inverter and checking that there's nothing "weird" (like the wrong battery type), these things can forget sometimes.

[malcolminthemiddle]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

When you simulate a power failure by opening the main breaker do the batteries stay on longer?

Yes. When I simulate a power failure by opening the main breaker the batteries kick in and stay on.

Quote

 

When you say the batteries are at 90% how are you determining that? Can you check the voltage of the battery pack and the individual units? (do you have a multimeter?)

I have an app that gives me a live graphic of the system including battery storage.

Quote

 

Some photos of what you have including the type number of any of the kit would be handy.

I will take some and post.

Quote

 

EDIT It's also worth running through the configuration menu of the inverter and checking that there's nothing "weird" (like the wrong battery type), these things can forget sometimes.

How would I do that? Thanks

Edited June 9, 2020 by malcolminthemiddle

[malcolminthemiddle]

I found this. I think the issue maybe with the software? 

[Crossy]

33 minutes ago, malcolminthemiddle said:

How would I do that? Thanks

 

Start by reading the manual.

 

[RichCor]

One would hope this 'back up system' has a functional relay to disconnect the mains from the load (presumably the house?) before energizing the circuit. If that section of the 'system' has gone faulty then I'd expect issues.

Edited June 9, 2020 by RichCor

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

One would hope this 'back up system' has a functional relay to disconnect the mains from the load (presumably the house?) before energizing the circuit. If that section of the 'system' has gone faulty then I'd expect issues.

 

This is why we need to know what he has, photos of the kit would be a good start.

 

I suspect he has a non-grid tie hybrid inverter, but ...

 

 

[Metropolitian]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

This is why we need to know what he has, photos of the kit would be a good start.

I suspect he has a non-grid tie hybrid inverter, but ..

....

6 hours ago, malcolminthemiddle said:

I found this. I think the issue maybe with the software? 

6 hours ago, malcolminthemiddle said:

Yes. When I simulate a power failure by opening the main breaker the batteries kick in and stay on.

If it turns on when the main breaker is opened, then it is a hybrid grid-tie-inverter.

But the picture that you, got from the manual on cd (?) is for a off-grid inverter.

 

So questions for the OP, MITM:

 

• What is the name and type of your inverter. (We can help if you post a picture)
• What do you mean with 'main switch' , the one in the customer unit or a switch at the inverter?
• Is the power failure a direct cut or a brownout, the light flickers and dims before it goes out

 

 

6 hours ago, malcolminthemiddle said:

I have an app that gives me a live graphic of the system including battery storage.

I will take some and post.

How would I do that? Thanks

Screenshot: depending on the mobile phone, mostly the bottom button and volume down pressed at the same time.

Do a google with 'screenshot <your phone name and type>. 

Or is the app on the computer? Take a screenshot with [alt]+[prt screen] and paste in the write field on ThaiVisa.

 

 

8 hours ago, malcolminthemiddle said:

That's beyond my technical level. Although the back up did work perfectly before. I cannot think of an event that would have upset the system.

A surge can happen without knowing such things has occured. Some electronics lock up, happens a lot with routers, mostly a reset fix it but not always.

 

8 hours ago, malcolminthemiddle said:

3 years old. They are regularly serviced and hold a charge of 90% +.

If I turn the solar off and then back on during the outage the batteries will kick in but only for a minute or less.

 

THAT sounds like a battery which holds the voltage but lost it appetite (capacity) to hold the charge it was rated at.

So how do you measure the charge? Does the app say that?

[malcolminthemiddle]

Apologies for the delay in posting pictures. Here are some pictures of the wall mounted part of the system. The inverter is a Lantrun type Aegis5000ES 5000W/230V/50Hzl48Vdc/Backup 2.3 KVA.

[Crossy]

OK so it's an on-grid hybrid with zero export function. All the clever stuff is done by the inverter.

https://cdn.enfsolar.com/Product/pdf/Inverter/5810558b52234.pdf

 

The maximum load on "Backup" is 2.3kW so check you're not near that on your "essential" circuit.

 

Otherwise, get out (download) the manual and check all the settings are sensible (reset to default never hurts). 

 

If you're still having issues then in order of preference it's:-

1. Batteries.
2. Inverter.

It's worth emailing the manufacturer's support people, in my experience the Chinese manufacturers are actually very good if you can get hold of a proper engineering support person.

 

 

[BritManToo]

battery backup not working, 

1) your load is greater then 2.3Kw.

2)Sine Wave Inverter has failed.

another possibility,

3) Live and Neutral into the system is reversed.

 

In bypass mode (when the mains is working) only a relay i used.

Edited June 14, 2020 by BritManToo

[Crossy]

@malcolminthemiddle has anything new been added to the "backup" load recently which could take you over the 2.3kW limit?

 

[malcolminthemiddle]

Thanks to everyone who responded. The problem still exists but we are working on the first assumption that the problem is with the batteries. Unfortunately, the manufacturer no longer provides technical support. ???? 

 

A new question. The inverter is single phase whereas the incoming load is 3 phase. Our meter is the multi-directional type i.e the meter turns backwards with the power generated by the solar system during the day. Is there any negative effect of having a single rather than 3 phase inverter? Thanks in advance.

[RichCor]

4 hours ago, malcolminthemiddle said:

A new question. The inverter is single phase whereas the incoming load is 3 phase. Our meter is the multi-directional type i.e the meter turns backwards with the power generated by the solar system during the day. Is there any negative effect of having a single rather than 3 phase inverter? Thanks in advance.

I find this an odd question to be asking if you don't already have an EXPORT agreement and equipment type approval with your power provider.

 

Even if you have an meter that can 'run backwards', having a system configured to do so without approval and safety interlocks for islanding your equipment can create a potentially hazardous or fatal environment.

 

On the other topic of Phasing, the only advantage gained from having a 3-phase inverter would be the potential of having it run 3-phase equipment (with its higher energy density requirement).

 

 

[Metropolitian]

I have re-read this thread and one thing just come up my mind. And got an 'aha'.

 

Can it be that there was no power outage (on the phase where the GTI connected to) but undervoltage.

And the inverter not kicking in as it was assuming that the grid still works.

That explains when switching the main breaker it will kick in.

 

Putting in  an over/under voltage protector , or setting the GTI at the right undervoltage 'breakpoint' , would fix that issue.

 

Any thought?

 

[Crossy]

5 hours ago, RichCor said:

I find this an odd question to be asking if you don't already have an EXPORT agreement and equipment type approval with your power provider.

 

Even if you have an meter that can 'run backwards', having a system configured to do so without approval and safety interlocks for islanding your equipment can create a potentially hazardous or fatal environment.

 

On the other topic of Phasing, the only advantage gained from having a 3-phase inverter would be the potential of having it run 3-phase equipment (with its higher energy density requirement).

 

I have never come across a domestic grid-tie inverter that did not have built-in island protection so there's no hazard to the linemen. There are millions of this type of system operating on planet earth.

 

Our OP's inverter is also on the list of PEA approved inverters 

https://www.pea.co.th/Portals/0/Document/vspp/PQM/PEA_Inverter_List_20200611.pdf

 

No advantage to using a 3-phase inverter, the meter will still measure the nett energy used (or exported if running backwards).

 

[malcolminthemiddle]

12 hours ago, Metropolitian said:

I have re-read this thread and one thing just come up my mind. And got an 'aha'.

 

Can it be that there was no power outage (on the phase where the GTI connected to) but undervoltage.

And the inverter not kicking in as it was assuming that the grid still works.

That explains when switching the main breaker it will kick in.

 

 

 

I believe that when there is a power outage all three phases are cut. But next time the power goes down I will check. Thanks.

[malcolminthemiddle]

7 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

No advantage to using a 3-phase inverter, the meter will still measure the nett energy used (or exported if running backwards).

 

My thoughts exactly. Thanks.

[maxpower]

Not sure the Lantrum name is still trading, might have done the Shenzhen dance.

 

Lantrum, Gem, Must, Shuker, Goodwe are some of the names these inverters go under. Chinese manufacturers often leave support to the distribution network under more than one name leaving end users searching for technical info. Names can disappear or change over night along with the distributors and installers.

 

If your installer is not supporting your equipment, dig around for someone with hybrid inverter experience.

 

First step would be to check fault codes, battery + inverter setup parameters, charging sensors if fitted, BMS (if applicable), battery condition and connections.

[malcolminthemiddle]

1 hour ago, maxpower said:

Not sure the Lantrum name is still trading, might have done the Shenzhen dance.

I believe that is the case.

 

1 hour ago, maxpower said:

 

Lantrum, Gem, Must, Shuker, Goodwe are some of the names these inverters go under. Chinese manufacturers often leave support to the distribution network under more than one name leaving end users searching for technical info. Names can disappear or change over night along with the distributors and installers.

Unfortunately, our installer provides no support.

 

1 hour ago, maxpower said:

 

If your installer is not supporting your equipment, dig around for someone with hybrid inverter experience.

Problem with that is our installer is the system admin. Without the access codes other companies who could help have no access to the system.

 

1 hour ago, maxpower said:

 

First step would be to check fault codes, battery + inverter setup parameters, charging sensors if fitted, BMS (if applicable), battery condition and connections.

On the case. Thanks.

[RichCor]

1 hour ago, malcolminthemiddle said:

Quote

If your installer is not supporting your equipment, dig around for someone with hybrid inverter experience.

Problem with that is our installer is the system admin. Without the access codes other companies who could help have no access to the system.

 

With most 'smart' electronic devices there is usually the option of performing full reset and starting the setup fresh from scratch (especially so if there's setup documentation available and a someone familiar enough with all the 'usual' steps required to complete a similar setup).  A full erase/reset is definitely not the preferred method but if all other avenues are blocked...  it's either that, or spending money on a like replacement unit that is supported and can be accessed.

[maxpower]

40 minutes ago, RichCor said:

 

With most 'smart' electronic devices there is usually the option of performing full reset and starting the setup fresh from scratch (especially so if there's setup documentation available and a someone familiar enough with all the 'usual' steps required to complete a similar setup).  A full erase/reset is definitely not the preferred method but if all other avenues are blocked...  it's either that, or spending money on a like replacement unit that is supported and can be accessed.

Many hybrid inverters use Wi-Fi connection made through a custom adapter. Some of these carry unique ID and allow only one master account that might not factory reset. This can make life difficult when support stops and the customer wishes to make changes to a system. 

 

I have no idea how this brand of system is setup or how much access the OP has to his system locally. What I do know is that people have obtained these inverters second hand and been unable to access the setup or obtain support.

 

The monitoring port is open at http://www.lantrunsolar.com

The product site has some wayback history http://web.archive.org/web/20190607203930/http://www.lantrun.com:80/

 

 

I believe that someone in Thailand has the knowledge and contacts to fix the OP's problem.
 

[malcolminthemiddle]

2 hours ago, maxpower said:

Many hybrid inverters use Wi-Fi connection made through a custom adapter. Some of these carry unique ID and allow only one master account that might not factory reset. This can make life difficult when support stops and the customer wishes to make changes to a system. The monitoring port is open at http://www.lantrunsolar.com

Our system can be factory reset as they did it once before but can no longer contact the factory. I have this app and can monitor the system.

Quote

The product site has some wayback history http://web.archive.org/web/20190607203930/http://www.lantrun.com:80/

Thanks

Quote

 

 

I believe that someone in Thailand has the knowledge and contacts to fix the OP's problem.

I am actively searching for this person and may have found them. Thanks again.

Edited August 5, 2020 by malcolminthemiddle

[English Engineer]

A number of the Chinese inverter do not like a load suddenly applied. The trick is to switch off the main breaker, allow the inverter to be establish then switch the main supply breaker.

[finnishmen]

thats is why normal human not ewer buy allto together box, if somethink go broken need buy all new box expensive, lot smarten and cheapen and better have system ,own charger modyle, were wires go to battery, how many panel you have ? nominal 1 panel 100-300W come out 18V 8A max if u have one panel need only 10A charger module, more if have more panels. current important thats. and inverter need be own box battery come wires to inverter, what size inverter you have. many inverter cut off automatic if battery not can make power to in inverter. and inverter have safe mode if battery go less than 50% inverter cut off power. you need check battery condition first, deep cyckle 100AH or more battery need be, many battery go fail/old if only charge and not use and load empty too battery ,not empty real battery not ewer can discharge less 50% or battery die. maybe battery thats have first problem 90% all system. then charger no work battery have empty and inverter cut of power if battery not have capasity, 3, inverter problem 1,battery broken no power, 2,inverter broken, 3 fuse and short circuit has broken. if i made this system i take own charger box, easy change if go broken and cheap, 10A 1 panel charger cost normal 10$ 50A 5 panel charger normal cost less than 70$ battery thailand expensive many shop not understand what have deep cyckle battery, only <deleted> car battery and car battery NOT work solar system. inverter 1000W-6000W own box and cost normal less 150$  easy lot better system if someone go broken need only change one box not all system. lto cheapen and better looking what have broken

thats no cost lot can buy 2 charger and 2 inverter second to reserve if someday go broken can easy dast change new sametime simple.