How does "only citizens and residents of these countries may enter without 14 days quarantine" make sense?

[dastakantattaka]

As the countries are opening up, I see the rules, that are intended to combat spread of chinese covid-19 among tourists, like this:

 

"Only citizens and residents of the countries A, B, C... may enter our country. Others - either not, or will be placed into 14-day quarantine center and then tested".

 

How can this rule make sense at all?

 

Let's take Vietnam, South Africa and Korea -- for the sake of example. The actual rules may be different for these countries.

 

Say, koreans may come to Vietnam with no problem now, South Africans - not, or will be subject to 14-days quarantine upon arrival. But how about south africans who work or are a tourist in Korea who have stayed in the country for the last N months? They'd arrive to Vietnam on the same plane as koreans and yet all koreans will pass the border with no problem while south africans will be placed in a quarantine center?

 

Likewise -- koreans working or are tourists, who have stayed there for over N months, in South Africa may arrive to Vietnam with no additional restrictions and enter the country? While the native south africans on the same plane would go to a 14-day quarantine center?

 

Stupidity or not? How is one's nationality matter from the point of view of the virus? And not the place where one has stayed for the last 2-4 weeks?

 

All that provided that during the  normal time one is permitted to enter a country with visa exempt or on arrival one, that is, visa isn't an issue.

Edited June 9, 2020 by dastakantattaka

[Captain Monday]

A racist policy to push an agenda, without regard to medical fact.

[yuyiinthesky]

Simple stupidity.

 

What matters is not the passport but where you have been the last 14 days (or longer if you like).

 

Simple to see in everyones passport.

 

This would be simple and fair:

”Travelers, which have been only in countries x,y,z in the last X days or month, can enter.” 
or

”Travelers, which have been in any of these countries a,b,c in the last x days or month, cannot enter without quarantine.”

but probably too simple for bureaucrats.

[Captain Monday]

3 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Simple stupidity.

 

What matters is not the passport but where you have been the last 14 days (or longer if you like).

 

Simple to see in everyones passport.

 

This would be simple and fair:

”Travelers, which have been only in countries x,y,z in the last X days or month, can enter.” 
or

”Travelers, which have been in any of these countries a,b,c in the last x days or month, cannot enter without quarantine.”

but probably too simple for bureaucrats.

Not totally true. When an American tourist goes to Korea, there is no stamp at all. Just a bit of paper given.

Other ways can proves you stayed ij Korea more than 14 days. Such as boarding passes or hotel receipts.

[bkk6060]

35 minutes ago, dastakantattaka said:

"Only citizens and residents of the countries A, B, C... may enter our country. Others - either not, or will be placed into 14-day quarantine center and then tested".

What are you quoting this from?

[taxout]

Of course what matters is where you've been in the past 14 days, not your nationality or formal residency.

 

The problem is, passports don't always have stamps showing where you've been the past 14 days. Not to mention thumbing through every passenger's passport trying to make sense of all the stamps would be time-consuming. A certificate in which you self-certify where you've been the past 14 days -- under some draconian penalties if you lie -- would be one alternate approach.

[ezzra]

Making any sense of this Covid situation and it's trails and tribulation was never a strong suit of any country or policy makers, most of the decisions were made on a wings and prayer hoping it will work, some did others didn't...

[dastakantattaka]

1 hour ago, taxout said:

The problem is, passports don't always have stamps showing where you've been the past 14 days. Not to mention thumbing through every passenger's passport trying to make sense of all the stamps would be time-consuming. A certificate in which you self-certify where you've been the past 14 days -- under some draconian penalties if you lie -- would be one alternate approach.

You're unable to prove your travel history for the last 14 days because there're no stampts? Then you're deemed citizen of a country of your passport and viewed as if you spent the last 14 days there. That may be not fair, but how else, if you can't prove otherwise?

[Pattaya46]

1 hour ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Simple stupidity.

What matters is not the passport but where you have been the last 14 days (or longer if you like).

Simple to see in everyones passport.

Not stupidity IMHO. They need to make rules that are easy to understand and check, even if they apply well only to 99% or 90% of the population.

As said above, there are a lot of cases where you can't prove (with only your passport) were you were in the last 2 weeks.

And for those who could prove it, it would often not be that easy and a big stress and lost of time. So you need a rule where people know - before they fly - that they will be autorise to enter. Who want to fly when taking the risk to be refused at arrival?!

Better to have a rule that works for the majority of a country population, than no rule at all and no access at all for people of that country.

[nspec]

I've been in South Korea since 12th February and have the immigration slip stating same, but from what I've read online as a British passport holder I'll not be able to get home to Thailand anytime soon and Brits could be at the back of the queue for returning, gonna be looking for somewhere else to go come mid July as my contract finishes then.

If anyone has any suggestions for SE Asian countries that are allowing tourists back in I'd be interested to know.

[LukKrueng]

18 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Simple stupidity.

 

What matters is not the passport but where you have been the last 14 days (or longer if you like).

 

Simple to see in everyones passport.

 

This would be simple and fair:

”Travelers, which have been only in countries x,y,z in the last X days or month, can enter.” 
or

”Travelers, which have been in any of these countries a,b,c in the last x days or month, cannot enter without quarantine.”

but probably too simple for bureaucrats.

You are correct, however it will have to be relied on passengers' statements as many countries don't stamp passports in/out of the country anymore, and even for those that do stamp - if the IO's have to check all stamps in one's passport and calculate the time spent in the last few destinations it will take forever.

The easiest system right now is to go by nationality. In order for it to be more logical it should come with a condition that those nationalities that are allowed in must also arrive from their home country. Let's say New Zealand is considered a safe country due to low caseload of covid19, so countries will be willing to allow Kiwis to visit, but should only come directly (or maybe with a short transit for connection) from NZ.

 

Anyway - there is not going to be a perfect system and many countries are searching for the best way to do it

 

[Salerno]

11 minutes ago, nspec said:

but from what I've read online

Where online? Possibly same place OP has come up with the thesis for this topic ... flawed IMO.

 

Numerous accounts from around the world of location being the issue not the origin of the passport prior to total bans. Prior to the total ban, where people flying into Thailand had been for the past 14 days was what was counted, not origin of passport. When Australia banned flights from China prior to total ban they openly told foreign students to go to another country for 14 days prior to flying to Australia.

 

There has been nothing announced thus far that suggests people will be banned based on origin of passport rather than travel history as far as I'm aware.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Salerno

[LukKrueng]

9 minutes ago, nspec said:

I've been in South Korea since 12th February and have the immigration slip stating same, but from what I've read online as a British passport holder I'll not be able to get home to Thailand anytime soon and Brits could be at the back of the queue for returning, gonna be looking for somewhere else to go come mid July as my contract finishes then.

If anyone has any suggestions for SE Asian countries that are allowing tourists back in I'd be interested to know.

I would suggest that once Thai sky open up for travelers from S. Korea you contact the Thai embassy there, show the proof you've been in S. Korea all that time and ask for a special permission to travel to Thailand.

[Don Mega]

The far better solution is to keep the borders closed until this whole WuFlu thing blows over.

[nspec]

15 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

I would suggest that once Thai sky open up for travelers from S. Korea you contact the Thai embassy there, show the proof you've been in S. Korea all that time and ask for a special permission to travel to Thailand.

If I have to stay here that'll be the plan, but I after working here since 2016 I'd rather be somewhere else if there's an option!

[stouricks]

19 hours ago, taxout said:

Of course what matters is where you've been in the past 14 days, not your nationality or formal residency.

 

The problem is, passports don't always have stamps showing where you've been the past 14 days. Not to mention thumbing through every passenger's passport trying to make sense of all the stamps would be time-consuming. A certificate in which you self-certify where you've been the past 14 days -- under some draconian penalties if you lie -- would be one alternate approach.

How much time does it take an Immigration man to put a dated stamp in a passport, directly after the last one, so that the person's movements can be easily seen. 5 seconds?

[Kerryd]

Sigh.
Most countries are well aware that foreigners in their country tend to associate with others from the same country. Often quite closely. People from the same countries/regions often end up in the same areas together, which is why in some places we see large groups of "Arab" restaurants and bars, Russian restaurants and bars in other areas, "English" establishments (like most of LK Metro) in others. Back home you probably have "Chinatown's", "Little Italy's" and other "ethnic" areas where people from similar origins congregate.

Which, as you should know, also happens in Thailand. A lot. Scandinavians often hang out together (same bars/clubs/etc). Same for Africans. Arabs. Certain "Commonwealth" and other English speaking countries (UK, USA, Australia, etc) will congregate in the same areas/bars/restaurants while citizens from other Commonwealth countries (like India) tend to associate more with their fellow citizens and different bars/restaurants.

So just because you may not have travelled outside the country you're in, doesn't mean you haven't had contact with anyone else that may have. And they don't make such policies so that every, single, individual on the planet can step up and say "But my case is Different" !
They make "blanket" policies that cover entire groups otherwise they wouldn't work at all.

Take, for example, one of the outbreaks that occurred in China (outside of Wuhan). It was suspected that it was caused by some Africans (Somalis I believe) who'd recently arrived in Guangzhou. They of course, probably almost immediately, started associating with other Africans which lead to the outbreak (and a lot of blatant racism on behalf of the Chinese).

Take an outbreak that has been attributed to people who attended the same function (like a church service in South Korea) as an example.
Lets say that 2 days after the service, before anyone was aware there was a problem - Ranjit Bloggins, flies to Thailand and tells Immigration "No sir - I was in South Korea for the last year. Never left ! See, my passport proves it !" and doesn't think he should have to be quarantined simply because he never left the country therefore can't be "infected".
A week later news comes out about all the people who were infected at that service and meanwhile, Ranjit has been sowing his "virus droplets" over half the country.

And you know (or should know) that people will lie. They'll lie about almost anything if it serves them. They'll lie about who they associate with (or don't). They'll use any excuse to break the rules because many of them think that "rules" don't apply to them.
They'd literally stand in front of an IO with all the symptoms of an extreme infection on display, and lie about where they'd been and what they'd been doing.

And you can bet most countries know that.

Won't even bother getting in to all the people who have dual citizenships and travel on different passports as the needs (or moods) suit them. There are thousands (10s of thousands, probably more) "Canadians" who fly to/from Canada using their "native" passport and then use their Canadian passport to travel to places where their "native" passport might not be welcome.
(We had a guy in Afghanistan that had dual German/Canadian citizenship who would fly in/out of Dubai on his German passport but use his Canadian one when he got to Canada. A lot of Hong Kong Chinese do the same thing. Fly to Canada on your Hong Kong passport, land, then fly into the US on your Canadian passport.
Can't track foreign passports once you're out of the country.
Same for a lot of people from the Middle East. Like the ones who fly in/out of Canada on their Egyptian passports but use their Canadian passports when they arrive in their native Egypt or wherever. Makes for a better "get out of jail sooner" card.)

Of course, no one coming to Thailand from a place where the virus is still an issue would ever use a different passport to come to Thailand, would they ? 

People lie. And the governments know it.
 

[Bangkok Barry]

21 hours ago, dastakantattaka said:

Stupidity or not? How is one's nationality matter from the point of view of the virus? And not the place where one has stayed for the last 2-4 weeks?

I was denied entry to a HomeShop store several weeks ago, based on exactly that. I wasn't Thai so I might have been in Europe recently. I haven't been in Europe for three years, but no matter. I had to sit outside, wearing my mask, while my wife went in.

[Peter Denis]

It's obvious that your nationality/passport cannot be the determining factor. 

What matters would be where you stayed during the last 14 days.

The logistics on arrival would also not be that difficult.

E.g. when you embarked in Australia and have the Australian nationality/passport, and did not enter/exit Australia during the last 14 days, it would be just the regular immigration entry.

For any other combination a form in which you have to fill in your embarkation port, your nationality and the country/ies you stayed in the last 14 days, could be used which would require you to take the 'special' immigration line for your entry.

[bolt]

if you want to play golf in thailand, you must carry your passport at the check in reception counter, this is to prove youhave been in the country for longer than 14 days.

so this type of thing will become the norm, hopfully for a short period

Edited June 10, 2020 by bolt

[Max69xl]

3 hours ago, Salerno said:

Where online? Possibly same place OP has come up with the thesis for this topic ... flawed IMO.

 

Numerous accounts from around the world of location being the issue not the origin of the passport prior to total bans. Prior to the total ban, where people flying into Thailand had been for the past 14 days was what was counted, not origin of passport. When Australia banned flights from China prior to total ban they openly told foreign students to go to another country for 14 days prior to flying to Australia.

 

There has been nothing announced thus far that suggests people will be banned based on origin of passport rather than travel history as far as I'm aware.

"There has been nothing announced thus far that suggests people will be banned based on origin of passport."

This is not correct. The Nation wrote about this about a week ago. The Thai government will list countries according to the Covid-19 situation in each country. They are doing the same thing in several countries in Europe as we speak. Tourists from some countries can for example visit Germany without restrictions while others have to quarantine for 14 days. Tourists from some countries are not allowed to enter. It will be the same here. 

[Salerno]

8 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

This is not correct.

Got a link to a press release/official notification that it's based on your country of passport as opposed to country you are travelling from?

 

It certainly wasn't the case prior to lockdown and I would put money on it not being the case when restrictions ease.

[digbeth]

It'd not be complicated for Thailand to ask airlines to check that people from countries permitted to travel to Thailand did indeed stayed in that countries for however long it is required prior to travel

[Kalasin Jo]

3 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

You are correct, however it will have to be relied on passengers' statements as many countries don't stamp passports in/out of the country anymore, and even for those that do stamp - if the IO's have to check all stamps in one's passport and calculate the time spent in the last few destinations it will take forever.

The easiest system right now is to go by nationality. In order for it to be more logical it should come with a condition that those nationalities that are allowed in must also arrive from their home country. Let's say New Zealand is considered a safe country due to low caseload of covid19, so countries will be willing to allow Kiwis to visit, but should only come directly (or maybe with a short transit for connection) from NZ.

 

Anyway - there is not going to be a perfect system and many countries are searching for the best way to do it

 

Going by your nationality according to passport may be simple but what if you are a national of one country but are resident in another and so arrive from your country of residence?

 

What if you have dual nationality and passports from those countries? You choose which one to enter on, although you may mot have even been in that country.

[Don Mega]

16 minutes ago, digbeth said:

It'd not be complicated for Thailand to ask airlines to check that people from countries permitted to travel to Thailand did indeed stayed in that countries for however long it is required prior to travel

Exactly, put the onus on the check in staff before the flight.

[Sumarianson]

So these smart Passports cannot tell where you have been? Not so smart then.

[AAArdvark]

21 hours ago, dastakantattaka said:

You're unable to prove your travel history for the last 14 days because there're no stampts? Then you're deemed citizen of a country of your passport and viewed as if you spent the last 14 days there. That may be not fair, but how else, if you can't prove otherwise?

Probably more correct, if you cannot prove where you have been for the last 14 days, a quarantine is required.  Otherwise your safe country passport could have taken you to a non-safe country.  It may also be possible to request a stamp if not regularly given.

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, Kerryd said:

Sigh.
Most countries are well aware that foreigners in their country tend to associate with others from the same country. Often quite closely. People from the same countries/regions often end up in the same areas together, which is why in some places we see large groups of "Arab" restaurants and bars, Russian restaurants and bars in other areas, "English" establishments (like most of LK Metro) in others. Back home you probably have "Chinatown's", "Little Italy's" and other "ethnic" areas where people from similar origins congregate.

Which, as you should know, also happens in Thailand. A lot. Scandinavians often hang out together (same bars/clubs/etc). Same for Africans. Arabs. Certain "Commonwealth" and other English speaking countries (UK, USA, Australia, etc) will congregate in the same areas/bars/restaurants while citizens from other Commonwealth countries (like India) tend to associate more with their fellow citizens and different bars/restaurants.

So just because you may not have travelled outside the country you're in, doesn't mean you haven't had contact with anyone else that may have. And they don't make such policies so that every, single, individual on the planet can step up and say "But my case is Different" !
They make "blanket" policies that cover entire groups otherwise they wouldn't work at all.

Take, for example, one of the outbreaks that occurred in China (outside of Wuhan). It was suspected that it was caused by some Africans (Somalis I believe) who'd recently arrived in Guangzhou. They of course, probably almost immediately, started associating with other Africans which lead to the outbreak (and a lot of blatant racism on behalf of the Chinese).

Take an outbreak that has been attributed to people who attended the same function (like a church service in South Korea) as an example.
Lets say that 2 days after the service, before anyone was aware there was a problem - Ranjit Bloggins, flies to Thailand and tells Immigration "No sir - I was in South Korea for the last year. Never left ! See, my passport proves it !" and doesn't think he should have to be quarantined simply because he never left the country therefore can't be "infected".
A week later news comes out about all the people who were infected at that service and meanwhile, Ranjit has been sowing his "virus droplets" over half the country.

And you know (or should know) that people will lie. They'll lie about almost anything if it serves them. They'll lie about who they associate with (or don't). They'll use any excuse to break the rules because many of them think that "rules" don't apply to them.
They'd literally stand in front of an IO with all the symptoms of an extreme infection on display, and lie about where they'd been and what they'd been doing.

And you can bet most countries know that.

Won't even bother getting in to all the people who have dual citizenships and travel on different passports as the needs (or moods) suit them. There are thousands (10s of thousands, probably more) "Canadians" who fly to/from Canada using their "native" passport and then use their Canadian passport to travel to places where their "native" passport might not be welcome.
(We had a guy in Afghanistan that had dual German/Canadian citizenship who would fly in/out of Dubai on his German passport but use his Canadian one when he got to Canada. A lot of Hong Kong Chinese do the same thing. Fly to Canada on your Hong Kong passport, land, then fly into the US on your Canadian passport.
Can't track foreign passports once you're out of the country.
Same for a lot of people from the Middle East. Like the ones who fly in/out of Canada on their Egyptian passports but use their Canadian passports when they arrive in their native Egypt or wherever. Makes for a better "get out of jail sooner" card.)

Of course, no one coming to Thailand from a place where the virus is still an issue would ever use a different passport to come to Thailand, would they ? 

People lie. And the governments know it.
 

"People lie. And the governments know it."  and just who are the biggest liars?

[Scouse123]

5 hours ago, Don Mega said:

The far better solution is to keep the borders closed until this whole WuFlu thing blows over.

 

That could be six, twelve, eighteen months.

 

Not realistic.

 

Also many in Asia cannot afford to stay here and are desperately low on funds, consider schoolteachers in Cambodia and Thailand living on a shoestring budget and many people with families here that are trapped abroad.

 

 

[drbeach]

On 6/9/2020 at 12:31 PM, taxout said:

Of course what matters is where you've been in the past 14 days, not your nationality or formal residency.

 

The problem is, passports don't always have stamps showing where you've been the past 14 days. Not to mention thumbing through every passenger's passport trying to make sense of all the stamps would be time-consuming. A certificate in which you self-certify where you've been the past 14 days -- under some draconian penalties if you lie -- would be one alternate approach.

Yet Thai officials do it every time you enter the country - Burmese too. They spend a good 5 minutes flicking through every page. Hardly that difficult to do, and you can show them the previous entry/exit stamps. I think aside from a few developed countries, the vast majority of the world's countries still use stamps.

Someone mentioned Korea doesn't anymore (that's news to me) but every country in SE Asia except Singapore does, China of course does, India too, etc. Other proofs could also be used.