Eucalyptus Trees

[Gary A]

After all the horror stories saying that these trees absolutely poison the soil and devastate the water table, some experts are now saying that this is just a myth and was a vendetta against the paper mills. Does anyone have any new information? My wife has 10 rai of marginal (dry) land growing up in weeds that we would like to do something with.

To convince farmers to plant Eucalyptus, some experts are suggesting that growers plant other crops in between the trees to prove that they will grow and that the trees are not causing any damage to the soil.

I did a lot of surfing and reading and STILL know nothing. A friend of mine has quite a few large trees that are over 10 years old and everything around those trees looks quite normal. I don't know what kind of eucalyptus trees they are and I do understand there are many varieties. My wife is going to try to get information from the agricultural people in Loei.

Are the same trees used for oil and wood? Some information I found suggested that the best oil comes from a different variety. ????

[ozzydom]

After all the horror stories saying that these trees absolutely poison the soil and devastate the water table, some experts are now saying that this is just a myth and was a vendetta against the paper mills. Does anyone have any new information? My wife has 10 rai of marginal (dry) land growing up in weeds that we would like to do something with.

To convince farmers to plant Eucalyptus, some experts are suggesting that growers plant other crops in between the trees to prove that they will grow and that the trees are not causing any damage to the soil.

I did a lot of surfing and reading and STILL know nothing. A friend of mine has quite a few large trees that are over 10 years old and everything around those trees looks quite normal. I don't know what kind of eucalyptus trees they are and I do understand there are many varieties. My wife is going to try to get information from the agricultural people in Loei.

Are the same trees used for oil and wood? Some information I found suggested that the best oil comes from a different variety. ????

Gary, there is an element of truth and lots of cods-wallop in the stories they tell regarding Eucalyptus.

In marginal and drier areas the ground around a eucalyptus tree may be barren and bare ,this is caused by the eucalypt being a guts for water (when its available) but the same tree puts down a very deep tap root which enables it to access water where other plants fail,

Secondly the leaves and debris from them do contain oils which smaller plants find to their dislike and so dont thrive up close to a eucalypt,there is also the shade factor.

Yet in hilly areas with adequate rainfall ,other plants thrive right up to the butt of a eucalypt,this may be because with adequate rain the fallen leaves etc break down and mulch quicker providing compost for other plants.

I have seen many thousands of acres of eucalypt forest clear felled,and windrowed, then pasture sown within weeks and within a short time pasture is growing up to a cows belly,,So much for the poisoned soil fallacy.!

[SAP]

Area's of eucalyptus tree's that we cleared for potato and corn production, had very high population of root-knot-nematodes.........some area's had 90% infestation........but with good management and time you can bring these nematode populations under control.

[ozzydom]

It should be noted that there are about 700 eucalyptus species most of which are native to Australia,they are as diverse as the multi stemmed Mallee which may not get rain for up to 5 years and survive, to the River Red Gums which can survive long periods of flooding and the Alpine and Ghost Gums which are under snow at very high altitudes for long periods and on to the King of trees ,the Mountain Ash which can grow to 150 metres tall.

[btate]

Interesting topic. this was discussed once before here I think. The 'stories' abound about how bad these trees are, yet, you see a lot of them in Chantaburi province, right up next to fruit orchards and used as breaks in some areas of sugar cane.

I had once read somewhere, god only knows where, that once a tree reaches a certain age (10 maybe) the negative impact on the soil is reversed and a mature tree actually improves soil quality...

Who knows what the truth is? I hope someone pops up with some real knowledge based on study not on I'net "reports".

Bt

[ozzydom]

Interesting topic. this was discussed once before here I think. The 'stories' abound about how bad these trees are, yet, you see a lot of them in Chantaburi province, right up next to fruit orchards and used as breaks in some areas of sugar cane.

I had once read somewhere, god only knows where, that once a tree reaches a certain age (10 maybe) the negative impact on the soil is reversed and a mature tree actually improves soil quality...

Who knows what the truth is? I hope someone pops up with some real knowledge based on study not on I'net "reports".

Bt

Gee Bt, I,m sorry that my better than 60 years of practical knowledge gained by growing them ,chopping them down,sawing them up,bulldozing them,building with them ,etc etc doesnt count as real knowledge in your opinion.

[btate]

Ozzy

Mea Culpa, didn't realize you had "actual" experience. That's the kind of information needed.

I don't recall anyone telling of actual experience, glad you can help clear up some of the mis-information.

Didn't mean to offend, just didn't realize you were an authority.

From what your saying about being gluttons for water, they would seem to be an excellent plant to reclaim swampy or continually wet areas. Sounds similar to a weeping willow in that respect.

Best

Bt

[ozzydom]

Ozzy

Mea Culpa, didn't realize you had "actual" experience. That's the kind of information needed.

I don't recall anyone telling of actual experience, glad you can help clear up some of the mis-information.

Didn't mean to offend, just didn't realize you were an authority.

From what your saying about being gluttons for water, they would seem to be an excellent plant to reclaim swampy or continually wet areas. Sounds similar to a weeping willow in that respect.

Best

Bt

Bt ,I dont claim to be an "authority", just have a long experience with them that started at age 9 when one of my chores was to chop 1 1/2 ton of wood and cart it home to the farmhouse with a horse and dray every weekend.

It is well known that His Highness The King of Thailand was the instigator of bringing eucalyptus trees to Thailand and carrying out research on the most suitable varieties to suit various conditions in Thailand,I think this was done at Chiang Mai.

The most seen variety here is used around levee banks and bung walls of dams etc where water is abundant, these would be ok for the purpose you mention but I would plant them in hills,many tractor contractors have a hilling tool if your looking at large areas.

Down south of Korat they grow a very attractive white barked variety in dryer

conditions which would be suitable for milling in probably 10 years.

[btate]

Ozzy

Mea Culpa, didn't realize you had "actual" experience. That's the kind of information needed.

I don't recall anyone telling of actual experience, glad you can help clear up some of the mis-information.

Didn't mean to offend, just didn't realize you were an authority.

From what your saying about being gluttons for water, they would seem to be an excellent plant to reclaim swampy or continually wet areas. Sounds similar to a weeping willow in that respect.

Best

Bt

Bt ,I dont claim to be an "authority", just have a long experience with them that started at age 9 when one of my chores was to chop 1 1/2 ton of wood and cart it home to the farmhouse with a horse and dray every weekend.

It is well known that His Highness The King of Thailand was the instigator of bringing eucalyptus trees to Thailand and carrying out research on the most suitable varieties to suit various conditions in Thailand,I think this was done at Chiang Mai.

The most seen variety here is used around levee banks and bung walls of dams etc where water is abundant, these would be ok for the purpose you mention but I would plant them in hills,many tractor contractors have a hilling tool if your looking at large areas.

Down south of Korat they grow a very attractive white barked variety in dryer

conditions which would be suitable for milling in probably 10 years.

Hey, your the closest thing to an expert I've read here so far.... at least this info doesn't come from the web like a lot of other 'knowledgeable' posters.

I have always had lots of questions regarding e' trees. Now that I find they are not "bad" trees I'll look for some info on the characteristics of the wood itself.

Thanks

Bt

[Gary A]

I'll wait for my wife to get information from the local agricultural people If she can't get their blessing it will be a no go. It's not a good idea to upset the neighbors and if they think the trees are going to ruin their land they won't be happy. It really doesn't matter if it has anything to do with it or not but they will believe it is our fault.

[chownah]

at least this info doesn't come from the web

Btate,

What method are you useing to get this infomation if not the web?....for me this is all coming to me via the web...I don't understand.

Chownah

[ozzydom]

I'll wait for my wife to get information from the local agricultural people If she can't get their blessing it will be a no go. It's not a good idea to upset the neighbors and if they think the trees are going to ruin their land they won't be happy. It really doesn't matter if it has anything to do with it or not but they will believe it is our fault.

Yep Gary ,If your considering planting eucalypt along a boundary,its best to consult your neighbour , my mates Thai family at Roi-et had a real fued with their neighbours over that very thing.

[Maizefarmer]

I had one that was in the middle of a field all by its self and for about 15 - 20 yard radius around it the maize would grow to about half the height of the maize in the rest of the field - so they do have an impact. I got it dug out eventually because it was a hassle to get the planter around it all the time.

For the first 3 or 4 years, it made dot differance - everything remained stunted around where the tree ha d been - then slowly over time with the addition of extra fertiliser that soil came back to normal.

[chownah]

I had one that was in the middle of a field all by its self and for about 15 - 20 yard radius around it the maize would grow to about half the height of the maize in the rest of the field - so they do have an impact. I got it dug out eventually because it was a hassle to get the planter around it all the time.

For the first 3 or 4 years, it made dot differance - everything remained stunted around where the tree ha d been - then slowly over time with the addition of extra fertiliser that soil came back to normal.

Maizefarmer,

Ozzydom says that there are alot of different kinds of Eucalyptus.....any idea what kind it was?

Chownah

[plachon]

The vast majority of eucs in Thailand are E. camaludensis and are extremely damaging to the soil fertility of the fragile Isaan soils in the long run. They are also very good at sucking the local water table dry in the wet season, possibly rising salts to near the surface and creating a virtual desert underneath, thus exacerbating surface erosion effects. I wouldn't touch them with a 20 foot bargepole and they are becoming a scourge as they are now self-propagating into native forests, destroying local biodiversity.

They are mainly grown for the pulp & paper mills where they contribute to water pollution problems. There is a smaller market for euc charcoal and "wood vinegar" as a side-product, and the old clown Big Jiew was recently talking about setting up an eucalytpus oil factory in Roi-Et. At a price of 800 - 1,000 baht a tonne, even on the most marginal soils there are better returns available from any number of crops. However, their popularity seems to stem from the fact that they need virtually no maintenance once planted, surviving extreme conditions of flood, fire and drought. Thus the poor land managers of Isaan like this quality, as they can more or less abandon their cash crop, while going to work in Bangkok or wherever, then come back and harvest them 5 - 7 yrs later. First wad of cash seems encouraging, but then the stumps and regrowth need management, and the soils is depleted of nutrients, so subsequent returns are progressively lower, while inputs will need to be higher in a vicious cycle until land owner is left with a useless piece of degraded land that will require far more to return to original fertility than any sum of money received from sale of wood.

You have been warned...........speaking from experience.

Look at native hardwoods or fruit trees, if you want the soil to improve over time and get a steady income. You'll have to manage it though, but its a worthwhile investment in long run.............

[Maizefarmer]

I had one that was in the middle of a field all by its self and for about 15 - 20 yard radius around it the maize would grow to about half the height of the maize in the rest of the field - so they do have an impact. I got it dug out eventually because it was a hassle to get the planter around it all the time.

For the first 3 or 4 years, it made dot differance - everything remained stunted around where the tree ha d been - then slowly over time with the addition of extra fertiliser that soil came back to normal.

Maizefarmer,

Ozzydom says that there are alot of different kinds of Eucalyptus.....any idea what kind it was?

Chownah

What type of eucalytpus - haven't a clue - I wouldn't know one from the other

[ozzydom]

Eucalypts have been grown in Thailand for 100 years, but only after 1970 on plantation scale. Eucalypt advantages are: easy grown, good survival, tolerant to various climates and soil types; no proven negative effects on soil, environment, human and wildlife; positive support to farm income; withstands long dry seasons, pathogen resistant; has wide domestic and industrial use. Domestic energy supply remains a major problem; 82% of population use wood (40 mill. tons) and charcoal (3 mill. tons) annually - a serious cause of natural forest degrade. Pulpwood is a major market; important other markets are scaffolding and piling. Ecological concern peaked in 1986-89, fading in 1990, these emphasized possible damage to water supplies and soil qualities and adverse impact on wildlife. Plantation studies in differing tree crop ages showed: no significant difference in soil texture; in 13 chemical properties including total acidity, organic matter and cation exchange the study showed similar result; a trend of increasing organic matter was noted. Credible discussion (June 1987) concluded there was no convincing evidence of eucalypt ill effect on soils, water and wildlife, but further studies were needed on environment impact. Farmer experience echoes this in fish pond plantings, rice field cultivation and cash intercropping; eucalypt productivity increases with compatible intercrops. Honey and edible fungi production is an increasing food crop combination with eucalypts. Eucalypt farming competes with agricultural crops, is highly acceptable to farmers, is considered as replacement for crops, e.g. cassava. The farmer community is capable of value judgment in eucalypt planting which is showing a marked upturn.

[ozzydom]

I had one that was in the middle of a field all by its self and for about 15 - 20 yard radius around it the maize would grow to about half the height of the maize in the rest of the field - so they do have an impact. I got it dug out eventually because it was a hassle to get the planter around it all the time.

For the first 3 or 4 years, it made dot differance - everything remained stunted around where the tree ha d been - then slowly over time with the addition of extra fertiliser that soil came back to normal.

Then again MF, I have seen elm,pine casaurina etc left as shade trees in fields with the same results, smaller plants do not do well in the proximity of larger trees.

I dont Google very often,but I did on this subject and found that many different studies by Agricultural and Forestry Departments over many years found no long term adverse effects on soil and water resources. In fact eucalyptus is about the only choice farmers have of a cash crop in salt effected soils in N/E thailand.

Apart from old growth forest which I dont like to see damaged,I dont really have an opinion on the pro,s and con,s of plantations ,its purely a matter for the individual farmer.

[chownah]

Eucalypts have been grown in Thailand for 100 years, but only after 1970 on plantation scale. Eucalypt advantages are: easy grown, good survival, tolerant to various climates and soil types; no proven negative effects on soil, environment, human and wildlife; positive support to farm income; withstands long dry seasons, pathogen resistant; has wide domestic and industrial use. Domestic energy supply remains a major problem; 82% of population use wood (40 mill. tons) and charcoal (3 mill. tons) annually - a serious cause of natural forest degrade. Pulpwood is a major market; important other markets are scaffolding and piling. Ecological concern peaked in 1986-89, fading in 1990, these emphasized possible damage to water supplies and soil qualities and adverse impact on wildlife. Plantation studies in differing tree crop ages showed: no significant difference in soil texture; in 13 chemical properties including total acidity, organic matter and cation exchange the study showed similar result; a trend of increasing organic matter was noted. Credible discussion (June 1987) concluded there was no convincing evidence of eucalypt ill effect on soils, water and wildlife, but further studies were needed on environment impact. Farmer experience echoes this in fish pond plantings, rice field cultivation and cash intercropping; eucalypt productivity increases with compatible intercrops. Honey and edible fungi production is an increasing food crop combination with eucalypts. Eucalypt farming competes with agricultural crops, is highly acceptable to farmers, is considered as replacement for crops, e.g. cassava. The farmer community is capable of value judgment in eucalypt planting which is showing a marked upturn.

I believe it is forum policy that if information is taken directly form an internet site its link should be provided or at least a reference indicating where the information came from should be provided....so here's the link for this info....I think....if you got it form somewhere else please indicate:

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/AC772E/ac772e0m.htm

[chownah]

I had one that was in the middle of a field all by its self and for about 15 - 20 yard radius around it the maize would grow to about half the height of the maize in the rest of the field - so they do have an impact. I got it dug out eventually because it was a hassle to get the planter around it all the time.

For the first 3 or 4 years, it made dot differance - everything remained stunted around where the tree ha d been - then slowly over time with the addition of extra fertiliser that soil came back to normal.

Then again MF, I have seen elm,pine casaurina etc left as shade trees in fields with the same results, smaller plants do not do well in the proximity of larger trees.

I dont Google very often,but I did on this subject and found that many different studies by Agricultural and Forestry Departments over many years found no long term adverse effects on soil and water resources. In fact eucalyptus is about the only choice farmers have of a cash crop in salt effected soils in N/E thailand.

Apart from old growth forest which I dont like to see damaged,I dont really have an opinion on the pro,s and con,s of plantations ,its purely a matter for the individual farmer.

I have no opinion on the effects of Eucalyptus trees since I have no experience with them. I would like to point out that while there are many studies and opinions on the internet that find no fault with them there are many other sites that do find fault. This is probably a case of the devil being in the details. Research results need to be very carefully analyzed both for the effect being studied and the conditions which created the effect....it is a complicated thing at least. It might be interesting for somone to pick one study off of the internet and we can read it and discuss its meaning and implication...perhaps in another thread...or perhaps it would just end up in a shouting match.

Chownah

[Gary A]

We had a little drive around the area where our land is at. My wife talked to some of the nearby farmers and they really had no opinion except that there is not much money to be made from them but there is also very little work involved. We looked at a rather large area that is now second growth. They say you can get at least three cuttings from one planting. We found no opposition to planting them.

[ozzydom]

I had one that was in the middle of a field all by its self and for about 15 - 20 yard radius around it the maize would grow to about half the height of the maize in the rest of the field - so they do have an impact. I got it dug out eventually because it was a hassle to get the planter around it all the time.

For the first 3 or 4 years, it made dot differance - everything remained stunted around where the tree ha d been - then slowly over time with the addition of extra fertiliser that soil came back to normal.

Then again MF, I have seen elm,pine casaurina etc left as shade trees in fields with the same results, smaller plants do not do well in the proximity of larger trees.

I dont Google very often,but I did on this subject and found that many different studies by Agricultural and Forestry Departments over many years found no long term adverse effects on soil and water resources. In fact eucalyptus is about the only choice farmers have of a cash crop in salt effected soils in N/E thailand.

Apart from old growth forest which I dont like to see damaged,I dont really have an opinion on the pro,s and con,s of plantations ,its purely a matter for the individual farmer.

I have no opinion on the effects of Eucalyptus trees since I have no experience with them. I would like to point out that while there are many studies and opinions on the internet that find no fault with them there are many other sites that do find fault. This is probably a case of the devil being in the details. Research results need to be very carefully analyzed both for the effect being studied and the conditions which created the effect....it is a complicated thing at least. It might be interesting for somone to pick one study off of the internet and we can read it and discuss its meaning and implication...perhaps in another thread...or perhaps it would just end up in a shouting match.

Chownah

And that would suit you wouldnt it Chownah, As my old man used to say " If you dont know what your talking about SHUTUP"

[Gary A]

I had a thirty acre long and fairly long narrow field that had a fence row on the north side. I mention north side because of the sun factor. There was a mixture of native trees including amazingly healthy poison ivy vines. Some of the trees were twelve to fifteen inches in diameter. You could figure that the first five rows, very little would even grow. The next five rows would be very stunted and the next five rows would gradually come back to normal. These were thirty inch rows.

That fence row became my source of firewood to heat my house. It took maybe a hundred feet of fence row per year to supply my heating needs. My son had poison ivy mid winter and no one could figure out what it was. Finally when our family doctor said that it sure looked like poison ivy, it dawned on me that it indeed was poison ivy and it came from sap in the cut vines. I am immune to it so it didn't bother me.

[plachon]

One of the problems with the eucalyptus "debate" in Thailand, as Chownah has correctly pointed out, is that it tends to stir up heated emotions of those "for" and "against". The former tend to include certain RFD officials, large landowners who've planted them on a grandscale and representatives of the pulp and paper industry (both past and present). They also occasionally include old Australian loggers with a clear attachment to the Euc, who get riled if anyone dares suggest that these trees may have negative environmental and social impacts, let alone that this tree is only so prevanlent in Thailand, because of a long history of promotion between the RFD, other govt. depts and giant agribusiness concerns, some of them even reportedly partly-owned by the last PM, who sell their paper as "Environmentally Friendly". Eh? Eh? Hint-hint.

The latter group tend to include NGOs, certain academics, and civil society groups who have witessed first hand the lasting and serious damage that eucalyptus plantations can do to soil, land, biodiversity and water resources in NE Thailand. I would tend to sympathise with the latter group, as I too have witnessed the negative impacts of eucalytpus first hand over 15 years observation and do not wish to idly sit around as it slowly speads unchecked (but highly hyped by the former group) across the Isaan landscape. This is especially so, when there are so many good alternative native trees to use, which do not destroy the soil fertility in the same way. The list is too long to mention, but I am amazed at the growth properties of dton khae (Sesbania sp. ), dton po (found in most temples, easy to propagate) and dton din baet (common fertile woodland species, most popular in new housing estates as it transplants well). There are dozens of other species, some nitrogen fixing, found locally, which are simple to propagate and can be bought in nurseries without having to resort to eucalyptus, an Australian import, which becomes like a feral rabbit of the tree world, once set loose in Isaan.

It is somewhat ironic to me that Australia now pays vast amounts of money to try and eradicate exotic weed pests, including animals and trees introduced from Europe. while happily exporting its own Eucs to the developing world. Bit of double standards going on there perhaps?

Anyway, for the benefit of Ozzydom, who only finds +ve links on the Net, here is a bit of a well researched and referenced balance ........ http://www.wrm.org.uy/countries/Asia/Thailand6.html

[chownah]

I had one that was in the middle of a field all by its self and for about 15 - 20 yard radius around it the maize would grow to about half the height of the maize in the rest of the field - so they do have an impact. I got it dug out eventually because it was a hassle to get the planter around it all the time.

For the first 3 or 4 years, it made dot differance - everything remained stunted around where the tree ha d been - then slowly over time with the addition of extra fertiliser that soil came back to normal.

Then again MF, I have seen elm,pine casaurina etc left as shade trees in fields with the same results, smaller plants do not do well in the proximity of larger trees.

I dont Google very often,but I did on this subject and found that many different studies by Agricultural and Forestry Departments over many years found no long term adverse effects on soil and water resources. In fact eucalyptus is about the only choice farmers have of a cash crop in salt effected soils in N/E thailand.

Apart from old growth forest which I dont like to see damaged,I dont really have an opinion on the pro,s and con,s of plantations ,its purely a matter for the individual farmer.

I have no opinion on the effects of Eucalyptus trees since I have no experience with them. I would like to point out that while there are many studies and opinions on the internet that find no fault with them there are many other sites that do find fault. This is probably a case of the devil being in the details. Research results need to be very carefully analyzed both for the effect being studied and the conditions which created the effect....it is a complicated thing at least. It might be interesting for somone to pick one study off of the internet and we can read it and discuss its meaning and implication...perhaps in another thread...or perhaps it would just end up in a shouting match.

Chownah

And that would suit you wouldnt it Chownah, As my old man used to say " If you dont know what your talking about SHUTUP"

But I do know what I'm talking about....and I'm quite good at evaluating research papers. I once worked in medical research (heart disease, atherosclerosis, heart transplant rejection pathology) and part of my job was to read others' research papers to determine what might be applicable to our research.....I've actually held a still beating human heart fresh from the surgeon in my hands and quickly snipped off bits here and there to use in various aspects of our research. I think why you and some others will do anything to thwart a level headed discussion of thing is that you know deep inside that there is a good likelyhood that you will be shown wrong....and you dread it...or even some can not even accept the possiblilty. I, on the other hand, know that I can be wrong and like to discuss things BECAUSE I can learn where I am wrong and in the process develop a broader knowledge base. I don't mind being shown that I am wrong...but I will not passively put up with bullying.

Chownah

[Gary A]

Since the plowed ground looks much better than I had anticipated, I think we'll try some other crops rather than plant the eucalyptus and walk away.

Does anyone have any idea if the rocks that are there indicate anything about the soil? I have never seen rocks that break that easily and are full of what looks like rust. The guy is about 60 percent finished with the clearing and the area that remains to be cleared looks to have a lot more of these strange rocks than what has been finished. We'll find out today.

[wilko]

A non indigenous tree - do they really have a place here? And there are considerable reservations abouit their effect on other plant-life - check UK Nat Trust on arboretums...

[Maizefarmer]

I had one that was in the middle of a field all by its self and for about 15 - 20 yard radius around it the maize would grow to about half the height of the maize in the rest of the field - so they do have an impact. I got it dug out eventually because it was a hassle to get the planter around it all the time.

For the first 3 or 4 years, it made dot differance - everything remained stunted around where the tree ha d been - then slowly over time with the addition of extra fertiliser that soil came back to normal.

Then again MF, I have seen elm,pine casaurina etc left as shade trees in fields with the same results, smaller plants do not do well in the proximity of larger trees.

I dont Google very often,but I did on this subject and found that many different studies by Agricultural and Forestry Departments over many years found no long term adverse effects on soil and water resources. In fact eucalyptus is about the only choice farmers have of a cash crop in salt effected soils in N/E thailand.

Apart from old growth forest which I dont like to see damaged,I dont really have an opinion on the pro,s and con,s of plantations ,its purely a matter for the individual farmer.

Fair comment - I'm not expert on any kind of tree - eucalyptus or otherwise, and yes, I guess any tree would have caused stunted growth around it to some degree or another. It was in the way and wasn't helping me at all - so it got the chop.

I have one patch of forest on the farm of about 20-30rai and all sorts bugs, beetles, fruit, birds and other animals live in it - so it's left alone completely. Its got 3 teak trees on it - which I wouldn't be allowed to touch in any case. Yes, I agree with you - we do to much damage damage to our natural heritage in this country, not because the laws aren't there 0 they are - it;s because the law is constantly been violated by @influential@ people whenever they want to build something.

Did you see Phuket 20 years ago? Look at it now - a dump, overpopulated and ruined

MF