Outlet wrongly wired? Neutral Ground Reversed

[Polarizing]

Hello TV!

I have just opened up a socket and found out that the the green wire is connected to N and the white wire is connected to the Earth symbol. Blue is in L, everywhere in my home blue is the live wire.
Am I safe to assume neutral and ground are reversed? Or should I do some additional tests?

Thanks!

Edited July 21, 2020 by Polarizing

[Crossy]

Never assume anything when it comes to Thai wiring colours.

 

You need to have a look in your distribution board to verify if the green wire really is connected to ground and the white really is connected to neutral.

 

Post a photo of the board with the lid off (care please) if you're not sure what you are looking for.

 

[bankruatsteve]

A strange combination of colors for sure.  Additional tests are definitely necessary.  

If you can identify N for the circuit at the CU, disconnect from the bar.  Then measure voltage at the socket between L and N  If you get 220 volts or so, it is likely E and N are reversed.  In this case, there should be zero volts between L and E.

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by bankruatsteve

[Polarizing]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Never assume anything when it comes to Thai wiring colours.

 

You need to have a look in your distribution board to verify if the green wire really is connected to ground and the white really is connected to neutral.

 

Post a photo of the board with the lid off (care please) if you're not sure what you are looking for.

 

haha thanks crossy you never ever disappoint me. 
https://imgur.com/gallery/QH6QENc

 

and CU is the same as the board what crossy is saying right

[Polarizing]

By the way I bought a very cheap, around 130 thb multimeter at tesco lotus before, which I regretted (because i thought it might not be safe) and never used. You think its safe to use or just throw it away hahaha

[jojothai]

12 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

A strange combination of colors for sure.  Additional tests are definitely necessary.  

If you can identify N for the circuit at the CU, disconnect from the bar.  Then measure voltage at the socket between L and N  If you get 220 volts or so, it is likely E and N are reversed.  In this case, there should be zero volts between L and 

Yes it requires additional testing.

What is stated is going to tell you.

However, do not attempt to do anything in the board unless you are well experienced with such things and know the dangers.

If not, get an electrician to check it.

Edited July 21, 2020 by jojothai
Add detail

[Polarizing]

1 minute ago, jojothai said:

Yes it requires additional testing.

Do not attempt to do anything in the board unless you are well experienced with such things and know the dangers.

If not, get an electrician to check it.

the problem with getting an electrician here is that they really don't care, as long as it works. (that is my experience)

[lopburi3]

7 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

You think its safe to use or just throw it away hahaha

Meter should be fine if you know how to use it and are careful with the probes (they may have more exposed metal than needed so easy to short if not careful).  You will be measuring voltage.  A short view of some Youtube videos should provide a good overview.

Edited July 21, 2020 by lopburi3

[Blue Muton]

8 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Never assume anything when it comes to Thai wiring colours.

 

You need to have a look in your distribution board to verify if the green wire really is connected to ground and the white really is connected to neutral.

 

Post a photo of the board with the lid off (care please) if you're not sure what you are looking for.

 

That was quick!

 

re the wiring colours, we just had some work done in our kitchen. When the house was built they put the cooker, hob, water heater, pump, lights and twenty sockets (I just counted them) in the kitchen as well as lights, aircon and sockets in my study and Mrs BM's sewing room into one switch. Needless to say the switch was tripping as often as Syd Barrett in an acid factory.

 

I met the electrician at a hardware store to get all of the gear to re-wire into different switches in a new box. It was only when I got home that I discovered he'd bought all white wire, when I questioned him about it he said "mai mii". I took the white wire back and purchased red and black elsewhere. Mrs BM would have settled for the white to save his  face but I put our safety above that. We can now use multiple appliances at the same time without any problems, I have no idea why I waited five years to get it done!

[bankruatsteve]

The photo seems to be same as what you are seeing at the outlet, so maybe additional tests are not needed.  Two ground bar?

[Crossy]

11 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

haha thanks crossy you never ever disappoint me. 
https://imgur.com/gallery/QH6QENc

 

and CU is the same as the board what crossy is saying right

 

OK a split supply CU, right hand side is RCD protected, left is not. Two neutral bars with white wires. Ground bar with all the greens on the left.

 

Is the outlet in question on the left or right set of MCBs? 

Are all the outlets wired like that?

 

[Crossy]

4 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

The photo seems to be same as what you are seeing at the outlet, so maybe additional tests are not needed.  Two ground bar?

NO!

 

It's a split CU with two neutral bars.

 

One half on an RCD the other not.

[jojothai]

My wiring is fairly complex. The electrician managed to do it very well. He still got one part reversed.

I did similar to what bankruat steve says to check and then corrected the mistake.

Even being careful i still realised how dangerous it is going into the board. You have to be very disciplined and methodical.

 I also noted a few other things that needed improving. When you do get the check done. I suggest check all the connections are good. Some of mine were loose.

[Polarizing]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

 

OK a split supply CU, right hand side is RCD protected, left is not. Two neutral bars with white wires. Ground bar with all the greens on the left.

 

Is the outlet in question on the left or right set of MCBs? 

Are all the outlets wired like that?

 

outlet in question is on the left side, its number two, if im not mistaken.
I don't know if all my outlets are wired like that since they connect it to white wires, some connections are hidden behind builtin furniture. because you know.. haha tit. 

[kingdong]

whoever wired it didn't swap the earth with the neutral to fiddle his electric bill?

[Polarizing]

9 minutes ago, jojothai said:

My wiring is fairly complex. The electrician managed to do it very well. He still got one part reversed.

I did similar to what bankruat steve says to check and then corrected the mistake.

Even being careful i still realised how dangerous it is going into the board. You have to be very disciplined and methodical.

 I also noted a few other things that needed improving. When you do get the check done. I suggest check all the connections are good. Some of mine were loose.

What were the specific challenges u faced?

[bankruatsteve]

10 minutes ago, Crossy said:

NO!

 

It's a split CU with two neutral bars.

 

One half on an RCD the other not.

Yah.  You posted just when I started thinking... Wait that doesn't make sense.  (2 ground bars)

Duh.

[jojothai]

2 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

What were the specific challenges u faced?

in the sticks, provincial farming community. Difficult to get an electrician never mind somebody who could read my wiring diagrams.

But my wife did find somebody.

Usual low existing voltage supply on the line into the houses. I wanted 50A for what was designed. 

I could get that if necessary from nearby higher voltage line. But it would be 3 phase. So i revised the design to 3 phase in case i needed it later.

Two rooms in the house for wifes mom and dad have never been used much. Didnt need to use aircon much. I designed to get as much airflow as possible and outer walls were double skin with cavity.

So i have never found the supply insufficient.

[Polarizing]

 

Quote

Even being careful i still realised how dangerous it is going into the board. You have to be very disciplined and methodical. 

 

@jojothai I mean what did you realise specificly when u went into the board? I mean if I am going to turn off the main power and touch everything with a neon first, I should be okay right?

[jojothai]

Other notes

 Deleted

Edited July 21, 2020 by jojothai
Deleted

[lopburi3]

2 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

 

@jojothai I mean what did you realise specificly when u went into the board? I mean if I am going to turn off the main power and touch everything with a neon first, I should be okay right?

Main power or main breaker?  If just the breaker in box the top feed will still be hot so you do have to be a bit careful around that and if change of any wire be sure they do not swipe across that breaker feed.  As said a video or two (first) should provide a bit of safety if you have never been inside a breaker box.  

[jojothai]

6 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

 

@jojothai I mean what did you realise specificly when u went into the board? I mean if I am going to turn off the main power and touch everything with a neon first, I should be okay right?

Yes thats important.

Make sure the testing neon is working. Do that on a live.

When you move any wires be careful you look at any others that may move.

Some in mine were loose and moved when i was doing the work.

Just trying to think anythinh else

[Kwarium]

27 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

 

@jojothai I mean what did you realise specificly when u went into the board? I mean if I am going to turn off the main power and touch everything with a neon first, I should be okay right?

iMHO, the box looks fine. Someone actually labeled wires in Thailand? So the answer to OP would be yes, it must be reversed at the outlet if white is on ground/earth.

 

My Dad once told me to always use only one hand when working in a box connected to mains. Of course if you’re on a steel ladder in flip flops that may not help. Also, Thai screwdrivers with a shiny metal plug in the handle will conduct electricity into your hand! Or so I’ve heard... 

 

Be careful!

 

A tester is great to have! Lazada link.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Kwarium
Add link

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Polarizing said:

Am I safe to assume neutral and ground are reversed? Or should I do some additional tests?

You know what they say about assume...

 

Thai electric and electricians are unpredictable! There might be lots of different ways how the wires are connected and maybe neutral and ground are also connected on one or more places to each other.

For Thai electricians the question is: Does it work? And that means for them: If you put some electrical device in that socket does that device, like i.e. a light bulb, work. If yes that means for them: It works, all perfect!

 

I saw so called professional cabling in modern high rise buildings and commercial buildings in Bangkok. I wouldn't believe what I saw if I would not have sawn it with my own eyes. And electric inspector for any first world country would have shut these places down immediately.

 

So better don't assume...

[Crossy]

44 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

outlet in question is on the left side, its number two, if im not mistaken.
I don't know if all my outlets are wired like that since they connect it to white wires, some connections are hidden behind builtin furniture. because you know.. haha tit. 

 

In that case you are correct that they've swapped N and E at the outlet and it's correct to swap them back.

 

[jojothai]

Take photos at the start, particularly if the wiring is cramped, complex.

Can help you identify things look the same after / not moved.

If there are any plastic connectors, check they are solid. Cheap ones here can disintegrate over time. I have found that a few times when checking wiring in properties. Thats besides the number of times i find wires connected wound around each other and covered with the plastic tape.

Eek, always have to fix those.

 

I better clarify that i am not a qualified electrician. I am a chartered engineer and have learnt a lot about electrics. I know its a dangerous area.

Some of the practises here make it even more dangerous.

Edited July 21, 2020 by jojothai

[jojothai]

Note: i have seen wiring in distribution boards that has some localised connections by winding wires together and tape. If you see any around the board like that i would change them for a proper plastic connector.

Edited July 21, 2020 by jojothai

[Polarizing]

2 hours ago, jojothai said:

Note: i have seen wiring in distribution boards that has some localised connections by winding wires together and tape. If you see any around the board like that i would change them for a proper plastic connector.

you mean wire nuts right. Yes, every connection in my home is done the tape way and im about to replace it all, but I don't know the size to buy for wirenuts haha

[lopburi3]

13 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

you mean wire nuts right. Yes, every connection in my home is done the tape way and im about to replace it all, but I don't know the size to buy for wirenuts haha

These copies (Wago is brand name) are very reasonable price now (a newer version is available) and make a much better connection and are just about foolproof.  

 

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by lopburi3

[bankruatsteve]

13 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

you mean wire nuts right. Yes, every connection in my home is done the tape way and im about to replace it all, but I don't know the size to buy for wirenuts haha

Twist and tape does not mean wrong if done properly.  Thais generally make a connection that is almost impossible to loosen.  That is what is wanted in a connection.  Almost as important is that all connection need to be in an enclosure (box).  Wire nuts generally available in Thailand are c_r_a_p.  Twist and tape is preferred over those.  I prefer crimp connectors but there you go.